This thread depresses me. It is the epitome of all that is wrong with the current genre in my opinion.

For the most part I agree with the OP.  Soloing in MMO's is as boring as watching paint dry after a few days (sometimes weeks) of playing it.  Soloing should not be eliminated but there should be very BIG advancement incentives for grouping.  As in you level 5-10x faster if you chose to group.

argument 1: mmos can be used for solo players to solo but still interact via trading and socializing with others but not in the form of combat persay. no where in MMORPG does it have the word 'group' in it.

argument 2: mmos should almost require grouping because it is multiplayer and should be revolving around group based efforts of players.

Either way, there is no ignorance, thats a silly sentence, OP. I didnt read any of the thread so idk if im copypasting or not.

Both arguments are right, but if you are looking at the term MMORPG, look at it for what each letter is

Massively - a lot of players on one server generally in the thousands

Multiplayer - it is not single player (you're not the only human in the game)

Online - internets

Roleplaying - you are playing the role of an entity in the designated world

Game - entertainment

No where in that is grouping necessarily even hinted at. Have you ever played a multiplayer match of CoD4 on the PC? Thats a multyplayer game and even on teams no one works together.

I like forced grouping and in am total favor of it, but please dont be blind.

Originally posted by Murdus

argument 1: mmos can be used for solo players to solo but still interact via trading and socializing with others but not in the form of combat persay. no where in MMORPG does it have the word 'group' in it.

argument 2: mmos should almost require grouping because it is multiplayer and should be revolving around group based efforts of players.

 

Either way, there is no ignorance, thats a silly sentence, OP. I didnt read any of the thread so idk if im copypasting or not.

Both arguments are right, but if you are looking at the term MMORPG, look at it for what each letter is

Massively - a lot of players on one server generally in the thousands

Multiplayer - it is not single player (you're not the only human in the game)

Online - internets

Roleplaying - you are playing the role of an entity in the designated world

Game - entertainment

 

 

No where in that is grouping necessarily even hinted at. Have you ever played a multiplayer match of CoD4 on the PC? Thats a multyplayer game and even on teams no one works together.

I like forced grouping and in am total favor of it, but please dont be blind.

The problem with agrument 1 is I don't wanna play a MMO to be in a chatroom with other players,  I want to actually play the game with them IMHO.

Originally posted by zethcarn

The problem with agrument 1 is I don't wanna play a MMO to be in a chatroom with other players,  I want to actually play the game with them IMHO.

The problem with that is that not everyone is you and me.

Originally posted by Murdus

argument 1: mmos can be used for solo players to solo but still interact via trading and socializing with others but not in the form of combat persay. no where in MMORPG does it have the word 'group' in it.

argument 2: mmos should almost require grouping because it is multiplayer and should be revolving around group based efforts of players.

 

Either way, there is no ignorance, thats a silly sentence, OP. I didnt read any of the thread so idk if im copypasting or not.

Both arguments are right, but if you are looking at the term MMORPG, look at it for what each letter is

Massively - a lot of players on one server generally in the thousands

Multiplayer - it is not single player (you're not the only human in the game)

Online - internets

Roleplaying - you are playing the role of an entity in the designated world

Game - entertainment

 

 

No where in that is grouping necessarily even hinted at. Have you ever played a multiplayer match of CoD4 on the PC? Thats a multyplayer game and even on teams no one works together.

I like forced grouping and in am total favor of it, but please dont be blind.

FPS

doesn't say it has multiplayer in it anywhere, yet most of them do. also, how many people do you know that actually roleplay in a MMORPG? I be you can count them on one hand.

Originally posted by Palebane

Originally posted by Murdus

argument 1: mmos can be used for solo players to solo but still interact via trading and socializing with others but not in the form of combat persay. no where in MMORPG does it have the word 'group' in it.

argument 2: mmos should almost require grouping because it is multiplayer and should be revolving around group based efforts of players.

 

Either way, there is no ignorance, thats a silly sentence, OP. I didnt read any of the thread so idk if im copypasting or not.

Both arguments are right, but if you are looking at the term MMORPG, look at it for what each letter is

Massively - a lot of players on one server generally in the thousands

Multiplayer - it is not single player (you're not the only human in the game)

Online - internets

Roleplaying - you are playing the role of an entity in the designated world

Game - entertainment

 

 

No where in that is grouping necessarily even hinted at. Have you ever played a multiplayer match of CoD4 on the PC? Thats a multyplayer game and even on teams no one works together.

I like forced grouping and in am total favor of it, but please dont be blind.

 

FPS

doesn't say it has multiplayer in it anywhere, yet most of them do. also, how many people do you know that actually roleplay in a MMORPG? I be you can count them on one hand.

 

Age of Conan was filled with Roleplayers... Landroval (lotro server) has about 20 RP guilds... There are a lot of guilds in WoW that RP.... every game has a little RP. Darkfall has about 5 big clans that take part as well. I would know because I have been in one for each game I've ever played (cept DF)

The FPS thing... have you ever bought an FPS but not really ever played the multiplayer portion? I sure have, and I have plenty of friends that do the same. Does that make it wrong? Absolutely not.

Originally posted by Palebane

also, how many people do you know that actually roleplay in a MMORPG? I be you can count them on one hand. 

How many videogame RPGs ever involved much roleplaying?

When it comes to videogames, RPG means story, character, and progression.  Always has.  Nitpicking about it now, 20+ years after the first RPGs, isn't going to do any good.

For what it's worth, the sense of playing a role is much stronger in MMORPGs than most other videogame RPGs -- you actually have a role in these games (DPS, Tank, Healer, etc.)

 I love FFXI because you pretty much can't get anything done without a party.

That's also why I hate FFXI.

Wow lots of strong opinions it's like a religious debate. If I can throw in my 2 cents - nobody is wrong. Some MMO's go for mutiplayer grouping and others allow more solo content. You should choose whatever suits you. Personally I don't have much time to play so I don't tend to group (at the moment)  and enjoy a MMO with solo abilities or very quick Multiplayer skirmishes. This may change with time - or not. The most succesful MMO's support both as far as I can see, which should indicate that a MMO should contain both to cater for all types of players if it really wants to contend among the best. Otherwise being a niche MMO is  also be fine but it shouldn't expect to have the strong following as one that supports both.

These are some of the most ridiculous, assinine re-hashes I see in these forums...what is wrong with solo play? What is wrong with group play? In my mind an MMO is just another world where you interact/react with it as you see fit for yourself...some people just use them to go on and hang out and chat with each other...oh man...my mind is swimming with so much content I can't even put it all down...this is such a ridiculous argument...I don't even know why I'm bothering to try and give my opinion...it's a game, do with it what is fun for you and don't do what's not....my opinion on communities in MMO's is that more than 3/4's of the people are jerks anyway...find the ones that suit you and leave the rest alone....sheesh.

I mean more often than not I get mixed into a group and half of them are zerging off ahead leaving half the group behind, not taking time to regroup after a big mob and see what everyones situation is...it gets ridiculous; I'll just drop out of the group. I don't know...my point is...is that...in my opinion an MMO is a world where I can meet up with people to my liking and do what we like to do together and have fun...it's a game for christsake....I can't even put my thoughts together here, it's just so ridiculous to argue over...

Oh...and it's not even like there's a right or wrong to this....It's all opinion.

Nearly all game design for modern MMO’s is solo based, it has killed many aspects of MMO life, not just grouping. Soloing encourages you not to interact at all with anyone, in any way. Most posting here have done the rounds on this one before.

Once again I ask, if you can play solo games like Far Cry, Fallout, The Witcher, why not expect more from online games? Not just grouping; what about bar brawls, mass battles, singing competitions, crafting competitions, let your imagination run free. Instead we get a solo format for an online multiplayer game, a tragic waste of the genre.

Oh...boy...gotta do this...

Yes scot, I agree, not half the content that could be incorporated into MMORPG's isn't. One that I have been playing recently, which I find quite entertaining and a pretty good community is DDO...but...my opinion and only my opinion again is...want a "REAL" mmorpg?

Try this:  http://www.planeshift.it/

It's still and probably always will be in development and it's 100% Free,Free,Free...I was pretty impressed with it. ROLEPLAY is mandatory.

Oh...Shadowbane too...was really sorry to see that  one go.

Originally posted by madeux

Basket ball makes a better analogy... you can have a giant gym full of basketball courts.... on some courts, people will choose to group up and play serious games... other courts people will group up for more casual games, less competition... others some will choose to shoot hoops alone... others will have p eople play hourse... others will have people doing a slam dunk contest...  All using the same courts, same gym, same balls, still doing it all together, but doing it their own way in the way that will bring them each the most enjoyment.  What's so wrong with that?

That a lot of people will want to win an NBA championship by shooting free throws alone.

Group content has to be rewarded better than solo, to make up for the greater inconvenience of grouping.

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Originally posted by MMO_Doubter
Group content has to be rewarded better than solo, to make up for the greater inconvenience of grouping.

---

It is, even in the most solo friendly game.

As a 10th lvl blah I can solo mobs of up to, say, 12th level. And these drop lvl 6-8 loot.

In a group we can fight, say, level 17 mobs, that grant more XP and drop lvl 12-14 loot.

Instant improvement over soloing

Originally posted by Nibs

 

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Originally posted by MMO_Doubter
Group content has to be rewarded better than solo, to make up for the greater inconvenience of grouping.

---

 

It is, even in the most solo friendly game.

As a 10th lvl blah I can solo mobs of up to, say, 12th level. And these drop lvl 6-8 loot.

In a group we can fight, say, level 17 mobs, that grant more XP and drop lvl 12-14 loot.

Instant improvement over soloing

Not in my experience. WoW greatly decreases your xp when grouping. You are also competing for quest item drops (rather than the game giving that quest item to everyone in the group). Same for loot drops - you COMPETE with group members via loot rolls. That stinks for encouraging grouping.

The problem is not that devs don't want to make an MMO that is mostly group oriented, it's that they mostly likely wouldn't make enough in subs to survive.  I'm willing to bet that most people who play MMOs are casual players.  They have jobs, families, schooling, other things that take them away from the games.  In my case I'm a single father of two who has about an hour a day to play.  How do you think I want to spend my hour?  If a game is mainly geared toward group play I may not have a hard time finding a group, but how much am I going to get accomplished in that hour?  Not much I bet.

I think wow does it right in terms of making it easy enough for casual gamers to make it to level 80 and then it's required grouping after that if you want to experience the rest.  Doesn't mean you can't group to get to 80, you just don't have to.  I think it gives things to both casual and those with more time on their hands.  Face it, the MMO industries bread and butter are casual gamers.  Until that changes, the games developed wont.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Nibs

 

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Originally posted by MMO_Doubter
Group content has to be rewarded better than solo, to make up for the greater inconvenience of grouping.

---

 

It is, even in the most solo friendly game.

As a 10th lvl blah I can solo mobs of up to, say, 12th level. And these drop lvl 6-8 loot.

In a group we can fight, say, level 17 mobs, that grant more XP and drop lvl 12-14 loot.

Instant improvement over soloing

Not in my experience. WoW greatly decreases your xp when grouping. You are also competing for quest item drops (rather than the game giving that quest item to everyone in the group). Same for loot drops - you COMPETE with group members via loot rolls. That stinks for encouraging grouping.

 

But grouping isn't about your EXP per second or outdoor spawn camping.  Its about socializing and tackling the dungeons or in the case of PvP servers(early on), safety in numbers.   Grouping in WOW has designed mostly for dungeons with only elite outdoor areas providing any real group opportunities.   WOW isn't EQ or DAOC, standing in one spot for hours killing the same mobs until your eyes bled.  I wouldn't have minded if there were a few more group oriented outdoor areas/open dungeons, but there were still enough.  

Whatever happened to grouping up with people because you enjoy playing wiith them?  I know, a hard concept to grasp for the min/max uber nerd types who only see the numbers, programmed by earlier developers to calculate every last digit or be gimped to fall behind the speedy race to the finish leveling curve...because if you're leveling 2% slower while playing with a friend, the game doesn't promote grouping?  

Sure, that was your experience, but mine consisted of playing with my guild and friends because I WANTED to even if I leveled a little slower.  But I didn't mind because it was still fun.  Sure, the drops didn't come as fast, but you know what...I was playing with OTHER people learning and exploring along side them and thats always better than playing a MMO alone.   Luckily when I couldn't play with my freinds, I could solo, have fun and get something accomplished.  NO, I didn't choose to ignore them, just because it hurt my exp/second nerd calculation;)  People always manage to ruin games for themselves then bitch about.  

If grouping offered an inherently "better" experience in game, then you wouldn't see these people calling for added incentives to encourage more of it.  it just comes down to them wanting to "bribe" other players to play with them.  why not just hand out gold? 

Grouping already has benefits... if you're on a quest to kill ten rats, you get your 10 rants killed faster.  OF course, for some that still isn't good enough.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Nibs

 

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Originally posted by MMO_Doubter
Group content has to be rewarded better than solo, to make up for the greater inconvenience of grouping.

---

 

It is, even in the most solo friendly game.

As a 10th lvl blah I can solo mobs of up to, say, 12th level. And these drop lvl 6-8 loot.

In a group we can fight, say, level 17 mobs, that grant more XP and drop lvl 12-14 loot.

Instant improvement over soloing

Not in my experience. WoW greatly decreases your xp when grouping. You are also competing for quest item drops (rather than the game giving that quest item to everyone in the group). Same for loot drops - you COMPETE with group members via loot rolls. That stinks for encouraging grouping.

 

Right, there are 10 of us, so there that rat we're about to kill had better be wearing 10 suits of armor so we all get one!

This is a depressing subject. Everyone is talking out there ARSE now! When the argument switches to individual mob XP. You know somethings wrong.

Here is my Arse comment. In WOW, a group fighting higher level mobs is alright. Only if you are fighting multiples of them at one time. At all levels you care less about mob xp but more about what gear/item the mob will drop. If you xp in WOW its much quicker to solo!

The argument of"its better to fight mobs as a group" is NIL.  Since the majority of groups for WOW are for either Instance Quests or for loot drops. This is not saying that the xp is not decent. Lower level instances can give out decent xp. About equal to someone grinding. But in all honesty its about the gear not the xp for groups in WOW.

The only exception is BRD from 50-58. Thts only if you have a good tank who is high level. The xp for there at those levels are incredible. Otherwise its a solo centric xp grind. As solo in WOW is very efficient.

Hope that helps with the progression of this thread!

What I think it comes down to is this:

If you honestly think that people soloing is wrong. You are incredibly one sided. Soloing in an MMORPG is a choice that the player can make and just because some people do or don't doesn't make it right or wrong.

To think that a perfectly normal and acceptable gameplay style is wrong and that everyone should condone to one type, you have some issues and need to be more objective and end this argument because it will never go anywhere but south.

Originally posted by AstralMystic

It is only the result of Ignorance. A massive multi player online role playing game.

This genre is like the seed of a great tree and the poison that does not allow It to grow is solo game design.

A gamer should be allowed to play the game and have experiences without grouping but the core component that is needed for this genre to grow is community and grouping.

Player interactivity, grouping and community is as important to keeping this genre alive as food is to our bodies.

Without It, It becomes a dead life form.

LOL .. it said "multiple player" ... it never says "GROUPING player". Buying & selling to another player is multi player. LOOK at another player's gear is multiplayer. CHAT with another player is multiplayer. PvP with another player is multiplayer

Who says you need to group to have a multiplayer game?

I am happy that developers are NOT as narrow minded as you.

Originally posted by madeux

If grouping offered an inherently "better" experience in game, then you wouldn't see these people calling for added incentives to encourage more of it.  it just comes down to them wanting to "bribe" other players to play with them.  why not just hand out gold? 

Grouping already has benefits... if you're on a quest to kill ten rats, you get your 10 rants killed faster.  OF course, for some that still isn't good enough.

Right, that's exactly it.  Posted an article on it today on my blog, in fact.  These people need to be honest about what they're really trying to do.  If people wanted to group, then they would.  These people want to have a huge sea of people who are willing to group at a moment's notice and are not above bribery and dishonesty to get it.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Palebane

also, how many people do you know that actually roleplay in a MMORPG? I be you can count them on one hand. 

 

How many videogame RPGs ever involved much roleplaying? Well, I guess that depends on the player. I roleplay heavily in all the games I play. Nowadays its much easier to roleplay in a single player games, because in MMORPGs, most players use thier characters as an extension of themselves. Its not wrong to do so, but it kills the immersion in my opinion

When it comes to videogames, RPG means story, character, and progression.  Always has.  Nitpicking about it now, 20+ years after the first RPGs, isn't going to do any good. I guess your definition of roleplaying is different than mine. I don't run around using "thou" and such talk, but I do get into whatever character I play and make decisions based on which character I play. Personally, I think story and progression have nothing to do with roleplaying.

For what it's worth, the sense of playing a role is much stronger in MMORPGs than most other videogame RPGs -- you actually have a role in these games (DPS, Tank, Healer, etc.) Have to disagree strongly with you here. Single player RPGs are much much easier to roleplay in. Tank Healer and DPS arent' roleplaying, they are character archetypes; again, nothing to do with roleplaying in my opinion.