Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by AstralMystic

Originally posted by Kungaloosh1

I'll compare this argument to a scene from the classic movie "The big Lebowski", in which Walter brings Cynthia's prize winning Pomeranian the the alley.

The Dude "you brought the f**in' pomeranian bowling?"

Walter responds "what do you mean brought it bowling, dude? i didn't rent it shoes. i'm not buying it a f**ing beer. he's not taking your f**g turn, dude".

 

How does this relate? Simple. You and i are playing the same game, that is where the similarity ends. You aren't paying my subscription fee, and I yours. The game is the bowling alley and what i feel like doing should be up to me and i should not be forced to bowl with you.

The best games know how to blend multiple playstyles into their game. This maxmizes the fanbase attraction and helps to ensure a longer and healthier lifespan.

If i had the OP's mentality, i would post some thread out there that there should be no such thing as raiding in mmo's as it ruins balancing and turns a game into an unpaid parttime job. Instead, i let others enjoy that playstyle and play my own game, happy as a clam. If i did post that though, i would be a troll too.

 

 

I never said total removing of solo play, I never said games shouldn't be allowed to have certain kinds of solo play. And I most certainly never said or tried to dictate how anyone should play the game or said they should be forced to group with me.

I bet you are a solo lover too.

Way to twist my words around and fabricate them.

Oh and by the way, you've already accomplished that, you already are a troll.

 

Right, cuz everyone who disagrees with you is a troll.

Got it.

I never called you a troll. In fact Madeux, shouldn't you be off playing your anti-social SPG MMOG where you can God-Kill and one shot everything by your lonesome self.

Where player reputation, respect and kindness have no bearings and are like a dead corpse.

Where you can be King and not have to tolerate anyone but your selfish self.

I remember the oldschool forced grouping from EQ. It was awesome at the time because there was no other alternative. Now there is and people can like grouping or solo'ing, or even both. None of them are the "wrong" way to play a game, just a difference in preference. Personally, I don't like people - especially people on the internet. I'm going to avoid them if I have the opportunity and if I'm happy experiencing life, or games, in this manner, who's to say that I should be spending all of my free time with other people?

Originally posted by AstralMystic

Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by AstralMystic

Originally posted by Kungaloosh1

I'll compare this argument to a scene from the classic movie "The big Lebowski", in which Walter brings Cynthia's prize winning Pomeranian the the alley.

The Dude "you brought the f**in' pomeranian bowling?"

Walter responds "what do you mean brought it bowling, dude? i didn't rent it shoes. i'm not buying it a f**ing beer. he's not taking your f**g turn, dude".

 

How does this relate? Simple. You and i are playing the same game, that is where the similarity ends. You aren't paying my subscription fee, and I yours. The game is the bowling alley and what i feel like doing should be up to me and i should not be forced to bowl with you.

The best games know how to blend multiple playstyles into their game. This maxmizes the fanbase attraction and helps to ensure a longer and healthier lifespan.

If i had the OP's mentality, i would post some thread out there that there should be no such thing as raiding in mmo's as it ruins balancing and turns a game into an unpaid parttime job. Instead, i let others enjoy that playstyle and play my own game, happy as a clam. If i did post that though, i would be a troll too.

 

 

I never said total removing of solo play, I never said games shouldn't be allowed to have certain kinds of solo play. And I most certainly never said or tried to dictate how anyone should play the game or said they should be forced to group with me.

I bet you are a solo lover too.

Way to twist my words around and fabricate them.

Oh and by the way, you've already accomplished that, you already are a troll.

 

Right, cuz everyone who disagrees with you is a troll.

Got it.

I never called you a troll. In fact Madeux, shouldn't you be off playing your anti-social SPG MMOG where you can God-Kill and one shot everything by your lonesome self.

Where player reputation, respect and kindness have no bearings and are like a dead corpse.

Where you can be King and not have to tolerate anyone but your selfish self.

I'm currently MMO-less right now, which is why I'm here :)

When I last played WoW, I ran a guild of 175-ish members, not including alts.  Not a huge guild, but a tight guild of people who didn't suck.

I had a great reputation.  I had immense respect.  I was the socialist paladin that everyone loved! I was kind and forced all high lvls in the guild to help lowbies (Thursdays no one was allowed to do anything except help lowbies level).

You mistake my defense of soloing for being anti-social.

To the OP Your a moron. MMORPG is multiple people engaging in an online game game in a persistant which is capable of supporting hundreds or thousands of players simultaneously.

Leaves nothing in stone that it is group oriented at all times.

Originally posted by AstralMystic

Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by AstralMystic 

I never said total removing of solo play, I never said games shouldn't be allowed to have certain kinds of solo play. And I most certainly never said or tried to dictate how anyone should play the game or said they should be forced to group with me.

I bet you are a solo lover too.

Way to twist my words around and fabricate them.

Oh and by the way, you've already accomplished that, you already are a troll.

 Right, cuz everyone who disagrees with you is a troll.

Got it.

I never called you a troll. In fact Madeux, shouldn't you be off playing your anti-social SPG MMOG where you can God-Kill and one shot everything by your lonesome self.

Where player reputation, respect and kindness have no bearings and are like a dead corpse.

Where you can be King and not have to tolerate anyone but your selfish self.

"Allowed to" ? .. And who should get to decide what is and isn't "allowed" .. ?

I'll freely admit to not being objective; I have my preferences and bias. You've clearly shown in the last few posts that you lack both the objectivity to make unbiased decisions as well as the courtesy to have rational discussions without resorting to insults and flaming.

Good game designers will cater to the silent majority and provide the maximum variety while excluding the minimum of niches. That's just the way the genre works.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by AstralMystic

Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by AstralMystic 

I never said total removing of solo play, I never said games shouldn't be allowed to have certain kinds of solo play. And I most certainly never said or tried to dictate how anyone should play the game or said they should be forced to group with me.

I bet you are a solo lover too.

Way to twist my words around and fabricate them.

Oh and by the way, you've already accomplished that, you already are a troll.

 Right, cuz everyone who disagrees with you is a troll.

Got it.

I never called you a troll. In fact Madeux, shouldn't you be off playing your anti-social SPG MMOG where you can God-Kill and one shot everything by your lonesome self.

Where player reputation, respect and kindness have no bearings and are like a dead corpse.

Where you can be King and not have to tolerate anyone but your selfish self.

"Allowed to" ? .. And who should get to decide what is and isn't "allowed" .. ?

I'll freely admit to not being objective; I have my preferences and bias. You've clearly shown in the last few posts that you lack both the objectivity to make unbiased decisions as well as the courtesy to have rational discussions without resorting to insults and flaming.

Good game designers will cater to the silent majority and provide the maximum variety while excluding the minimum of niches. That's just the way the genre works.

That last post you quoted me on in regards to Madeux was partly a joke and partly serious ( Sorry you seem to lack the discrimination to notice that ). And if you actually read all the posts in this topic you'd know he's made quite a few posts about pissing on my shoes. But some of his posts I respect too. Quite non-canon of you.

unbiased decisions? I've been keeping my own subjective opinion pretty open throughout this whole thread. That is completely non-canon of you to say stuff like that.

I expect more from you Illvadyr, but It's obvious you've let me and the whole community down.

 I can usually get things done faster by myself than having to do it with a bunch of scrubs.  I do not and will not group outside of my friends, there are way too much jobbers that play mmos to waste my time with them.  

Playing without grouping doesn't mean you're just playing with yourself.  Not in any MMO I've played so far (unless the server is dead). 

Originally posted by AstralMystic

That last post you quoted me on in regards to Madeux was partly a joke and partly serious ( Sorry you seem to lack the discrimination to notice that ). And if you actually read all the posts in this topic you'd know he's made quite a few posts about pissing on my shoes. But some of his posts I respect too. Quite non-canon of you.

unbiased decisions? I've been keeping my own subjective opinion pretty open throughout this whole thread. That is completely non-canon of you to say stuff like that.

I expect more from you Illvadyr, but It's obvious you've let me and the whole community down.

You insulted him; I called you on it. You insulted me.

I see a pattern forming; luckily I possess the maturity to break it by not insulting you in turn.

Yes, your opinion and bias is clear. That's not up for debate.

What is up for debate is your apparent belief that (despite the bias that you admit to) you are qualified to pass judgment on the state of the genre as a whole; discounting the opinions of others whose bias does not match your own.

Bit pointless, really.

Hmmm... the old "I want forced grouping so I have someone to play with" rant...

I find this pretty funny since every MMO is based on the group.  Parties of 5 or 6, raiding and massive sieging are all part of most MMO's.  Sure, many newer MMO's have solo options but it is all an illusion.

Solo play is simply the warm up (like WoW's or Aion's early levels) until you get to the meat of the game (AKA Endgame), or it is an aside just put in to lure in players and their money.

I often think Dev's put in the solo avenue due to the latter:  They know no one would play if they had to group right off the get go, so they try to coax the players into the group model.  That's why the first 10 to 60 levels of all MMO's can be soloed.  They lure in folks with solo play (to make money and get subs) and then try to force the group on them in later stages, and all current MMO's do this.

If anyone has a legitimate gripe, it is those who pay for a game and sub because they can play as they like at first, and later find that to get to the "good stuff" they have to play a very narrow ranged style of play.

I call it "MMO bait and switch."

The interesting thing is if players have the choice between going it alone or grouping, they almost always choose the solo route.  It is this very fact that has prompted the OP to post this thread.

This should tell the players and the devs something very profound:  They (the average player) doesn't want to group.  They (the average player) doesn't want to play with YOU. 

They (the average player) simply wants a living world to explore and interact with, and to choose when and if they want to group, and if they do want to group, who it is with and how they want to play and group (if at all).

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by AstralMystic

That last post you quoted me on in regards to Madeux was partly a joke and partly serious ( Sorry you seem to lack the discrimination to notice that ). And if you actually read all the posts in this topic you'd know he's made quite a few posts about pissing on my shoes. But some of his posts I respect too. Quite non-canon of you.

unbiased decisions? I've been keeping my own subjective opinion pretty open throughout this whole thread. That is completely non-canon of you to say stuff like that.

I expect more from you Illvadyr, but It's obvious you've let me and the whole community down.

You insulted him; I called you on it. You insulted me.

Completely non-canon

 First of all you attacked me in your first post directed towards me. And I by no means insulted you, but you seem to take It that way.

Then you have the blind tenacity to say I attacked you after you attacked me first.

I thought as much.

Completely non-canon

The arguement between soloer's and groupers isnt real. Dont fall for it devs.

Originally posted by Korhindi

Hmmm... the old "I want forced grouping so I have someone to play with" rant...

I find this pretty funny since every MMO is based on the group.  Parties of 5 or 6, raiding and massive sieging are all part of most MMO's.  Sure, many newer MMO's have solo options but it is all an illusion.

Solo play is simply the warm up (like WoW's or Aion's early levels) until you get to the meat of the game (AKA Endgame), or it is an aside just put in to lure in players and their money.

I often think Dev's put in the solo avenue due to the latter:  They know no one would play if they had to group right off the get go, so they try to coax the players into the group model.  That's why the first 10 to 60 levels of all MMO's can be soloed.  They lure in folks with solo play (to make money and get subs) and then try to force the group on them in later stages, and all current MMO's do this.

If anyone has a legitimate gripe, it is those who pay for a game and sub because they can play as they like at first, and later find that to get to the "good stuff" they have to play a very narrow ranged style of play.

I call it "MMO bait and switch."

The interesting thing is if players have the choice between going it alone or grouping, they almost always choose the solo route.  It is this very fact that has prompted the OP to post this thread.

This should tell the players and the devs something very profound:  They (the average player) doesn't want to group.  They (the average player) doesn't want to play with YOU. 

They (the average player) simply wants a living world to explore and interact with, and to choose when and if they want to group, and if they do want to group, who it is with and how they want to play and group (if at all).

I agree with this theoryto a point. However, it is the devs job to make sure people are pulled into the game. IMO, the best way to do this is to get players involved in the community. Meeting new people, interacting with people other than "Barrens" chat.

I actually don't think people want to solo while leveling, per se. They want what is easiest. The current setup is that while leveling soloing is the quickest, and easiest route. What if grouping was? I guarantee people would be doing that. Instead, what we have now is that people are penalized for grouping. The rewards are crap compared to the effort vs. that of soloing. The reason people group at endgame is, because there is no other way to progress. Yet, people who "love" to solo, and "don't want to group with YOU" group to achieve their goals. The masses will choose the easiest route, and right now soloing is the easiest for leveling a toon. Grouping slows you down.

Originally posted by AstralMystic

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by AstralMystic

That last post you quoted me on in regards to Madeux was partly a joke and partly serious ( Sorry you seem to lack the discrimination to notice that ). And if you actually read all the posts in this topic you'd know he's made quite a few posts about pissing on my shoes. But some of his posts I respect too. Quite non-canon of you.

unbiased decisions? I've been keeping my own subjective opinion pretty open throughout this whole thread. That is completely non-canon of you to say stuff like that.

I expect more from you Illvadyr, but It's obvious you've let me and the whole community down.

You insulted him; I called you on it. You insulted me.

I see a pattern forming; luckily I possess the maturity to break it by not insulting you in turn.

Yes, your opinion and bias is clear. That's not up for debate.

What is up for debate is your apparent belief that (despite the bias that you admit to) you are qualified to pass judgment on the state of the genre as a whole; discounting the opinions of others whose bias does not match your own.

Bit pointless, really.

 

Ilvaldyr, One drop of Avidya ( Ignorance ) mixes with the entire melting pot.

Barely a one can understand the mystery of my darkness. ( Material Illusion )

Guru Gorkah and King Gopichand see you Narknellz, and nasferatu and his dominion of the hell chambers hear your calling.

"Jaya Radha Madhava; Kunja bihari

Gopi Jana vallabha; Giri vara dhari

Jasoda nandana; Vraja jana ranjana

Jamuna tira vana cari"

And if you be so Guru like, you may want to follow the above mantra. 

It is very good advice.

Originally posted by AstralMystic

It is only the result of Ignorance. A massive multi player online role playing game.

This genre is like the seed of a great tree and the poison that does not allow It to grow is solo game design.

A gamer should be allowed to play the game and have experiences without grouping but the core component that is needed for this genre to grow is community and grouping.

Player interactivity, grouping and community is as important to keeping this genre alive as food is to our bodies.

Without It, It becomes a dead life form.

Just out of curiosity.. If a MMO was tailored to allow a solo player to experience every aspect of the game that a full/raid group can experience.. How exactly does that negatively effect the players that prefer to group?

The only impact I see is that grouping players won't like that a solo player can do all that they can do. Nothing is stopping you from socializing, grouping, raiding, etc. just because those players that prefer to solo can do so.

Originally posted by brostyn

Originally posted by Korhindi

Hmmm... the old "I want forced grouping so I have someone to play with" rant...

I find this pretty funny since every MMO is based on the group.  Parties of 5 or 6, raiding and massive sieging are all part of most MMO's.  Sure, many newer MMO's have solo options but it is all an illusion.

Solo play is simply the warm up (like WoW's or Aion's early levels) until you get to the meat of the game (AKA Endgame), or it is an aside just put in to lure in players and their money.

I often think Dev's put in the solo avenue due to the latter:  They know no one would play if they had to group right off the get go, so they try to coax the players into the group model.  That's why the first 10 to 60 levels of all MMO's can be soloed.  They lure in folks with solo play (to make money and get subs) and then try to force the group on them in later stages, and all current MMO's do this.

If anyone has a legitimate gripe, it is those who pay for a game and sub because they can play as they like at first, and later find that to get to the "good stuff" they have to play a very narrow ranged style of play.

I call it "MMO bait and switch."

The interesting thing is if players have the choice between going it alone or grouping, they almost always choose the solo route.  It is this very fact that has prompted the OP to post this thread.

This should tell the players and the devs something very profound:  They (the average player) doesn't want to group.  They (the average player) doesn't want to play with YOU. 

They (the average player) simply wants a living world to explore and interact with, and to choose when and if they want to group, and if they do want to group, who it is with and how they want to play and group (if at all).

 

I agree with this theoryto a point. However, it is the devs job to make sure people are pulled into the game. IMO, the best way to do this is to get players involved in the community. Meeting new people, interacting with people other than "Barrens" chat.

I actually don't think people want to solo while leveling, per se. They want what is easiest. The current setup is that while leveling soloing is the quickest, and easiest route. What if grouping was? I guarantee people would be doing that. Instead, what we have now is that people are penalized for grouping. The rewards are crap compared to the effort vs. that of soloing. The reason people group at endgame is, because there is no other way to progress. Yet, people who "love" to solo, and "don't want to group with YOU" group to achieve their goals. The masses will choose the easiest route, and right now soloing is the easiest for leveling a toon. Grouping slows you down.

Yes, I can see your point, but if pulling folks into the community is so important, why do they take so long to do it.

Take WoW, you can make it to 80 without ever grouping.  Then, at end game, bam!  you gotta group.

That said, I agree that grouping should be rewarding and fun.  That is the best way to foster it.

Currently, in most MMO's grouping is just not that fun (to me) most of the time.  It's not just about it being harder, it's just that grouping is a royal pain in the ass for one reason or another.   If Devs (and the players) changed that, I would be far more inclined to accept group invites.

A "group" isn't very massive. It's 3-6 people, or 10-20, but even 20 doesn't qualify as massive. I don't know why people who push the "massively"="massively" argument always wind up talking about groups.  Group content doesn't promote community, COMMUNITY content promotes community.

Sadly I've played MMO FPS, such as Combat Arms that has more player interactivity and group action going on than most of todays current MMORPG.

I love you Madeux. Regardless of what people may say about my love for you, It is neither empty nor full.

I just hope you get over this solo delusion you have become obsessed with.

Originally posted by AstralMystic

Sadly I've played MMO FPS, such as Combat Arms that has more player interactivity and group action going on than most of todays current MMORPG.

I love you Madeux. Regardless of what people may say about my love for you, It is neither empty nor full.

I just hope you get over this solo delusion you have become obsessed with.

perhaps if you weren't such a douche, people would more willingly interact with you.

i'm just sayin...

Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by AstralMystic

Sadly I've played MMO FPS, such as Combat Arms that has more player interactivity and group action going on than most of todays current MMORPG.

I love you Madeux. Regardless of what people may say about my love for you, It is neither empty nor full.

I just hope you get over this solo delusion you have become obsessed with.

 

perhaps if you weren't such a douche, people would more willingly interact with you.

i'm just sayin...

Look at my quote. It answers all your questions. I am just the mirror of yourself Madeux.

Originally posted by AstralMystic

Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by AstralMystic

Sadly I've played MMO FPS, such as Combat Arms that has more player interactivity and group action going on than most of todays current MMORPG.

I love you Madeux. Regardless of what people may say about my love for you, It is neither empty nor full.

I just hope you get over this solo delusion you have become obsessed with.

 

perhaps if you weren't such a douche, people would more willingly interact with you.

i'm just sayin...

 

Look at my quote. It answers all your questions. I am just the mirror of yourself Madeux.

Were that the case, you would be an enlightened, open minded individual willing to let everyone play mmo's the way that they wish.  That is clearly not the case.

Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by AstralMystic

Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by AstralMystic

Sadly I've played MMO FPS, such as Combat Arms that has more player interactivity and group action going on than most of todays current MMORPG.

I love you Madeux. Regardless of what people may say about my love for you, It is neither empty nor full.

I just hope you get over this solo delusion you have become obsessed with.

 

perhaps if you weren't such a douche, people would more willingly interact with you.

i'm just sayin...

 

Look at my quote. It answers all your questions. I am just the mirror of yourself Madeux.

 

Were that the case, you would be an enlightened, open minded individual willing to let everyone play mmo's the way that wish.  That is clearly not the case.

YOU MUST GROUP PLAY EVERY MMO EVER, IT'S THE ONLY WAY! MEH, THIS IS THE INTERNET!

GET OFF MY LAWN!

Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by AstralMystic

Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by AstralMystic

Sadly I've played MMO FPS, such as Combat Arms that has more player interactivity and group action going on than most of todays current MMORPG.

I love you Madeux. Regardless of what people may say about my love for you, It is neither empty nor full.

I just hope you get over this solo delusion you have become obsessed with.

 

perhaps if you weren't such a douche, people would more willingly interact with you.

i'm just sayin...

 

Look at my quote. It answers all your questions. I am just the mirror of yourself Madeux.

 

Were that the case, you would be an enlightened, open minded individual willing to let everyone play mmo's the way that wish.  That is clearly not the case.

Actually I am perfectly open and willing to let everyone play MMORPG'S the way they want to play them. I would never want to dictate how anyone plays their own videogame.

Now if you would stop twisting my words around, that would be helpful.

 

Originally posted by AstralMystic

Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by AstralMystic

Sadly I've played MMO FPS, such as Combat Arms that has more player interactivity and group action going on than most of todays current MMORPG.

I love you Madeux. Regardless of what people may say about my love for you, It is neither empty nor full.

I just hope you get over this solo delusion you have become obsessed with.

 

perhaps if you weren't such a douche, people would more willingly interact with you.

i'm just sayin...

 

Look at my quote. It answers all your questions. I am just the mirror of yourself Madeux.

Huh. He really is a douche..

Soloing nor grouping should be forced, but clearly a mmorpg should be about community and grouping a majority of the time.  Although games are no longer tilted this way, they originally were.  Traditional MMORPGS were evolved from D&D, other pnps, and HUDs.  The common thread in all of these was the grouping component.  There is some truth behind the argument that if you only want to solo, why look to a mmorpg?  Many of you bite-back and condemn people for having this view because they are determing the genre on their own terms.  Yet, at the same time, you are saying that you have the superior opinion/viewpoint and that if they dont see it the way you do, they are wrong.

There is plenty of room for solo, small group, raid/zerg, etc. play in almost any mmorpg, but I guess many "traditionalists" like myself hold the genre to its roots.  For me, DAoC circa 2002ish was the perfect example.  People solo'd when they wanted/when friends werent around, but grouped the majority of the time.  The system worked because of game design and the risk/reward system.  If you wanted to solo, you fought yellows and some oranges.  If you had a 2-3 people, you did oranges and red.  If you had a solid group, you did red and purples.  I do not really see that system in modern games.  When people group, they usually arent facing more challenging encounters unless they are running an instance or killing an elite/epic/hero type of mob.  And as another poster pointed out, there is no real incentive to group in modern games. 

Grouping and interaction builds communities and thus lengthens the lifespan of games.  People are game hopping more than ever today and most of the reason is because there is no foundation or community that keeps the player hooked after the intial shine wears off.  Just about any major game released in the past 4 years has been fun to play to some extent, but none of them have done much to retain their customers base.  Even WoW is guilty of this to some extent.  For those of us who played EQ, UO, AC, DAoC, etc.; we know how grouping and a solid community made the games so much more stronger and kept us hooked for years.  Again, this has nothing to do with forced-grouping, just long term stability.

Finally, one point I havent seen raised in this thread ( I could have missed it) is that to some degree, the move to solo-centric games has dumbed down the genre.  Many threads have touched of the ideal that games are too easy now, too dumbed-down.  Some of this is due to making games overly solo-friendly.  In order to have a solo-friendly game, they have to tone down encounters and leveling difficulty (this also touches on the casual-friendly concept).  I understand that many people like and "need" this type of mechanic, but an overdose of it is very unhealthy to the genre as a whole.  Just to be clear, Im not demonizing or blaming solo-heavy players, but simply stating that it has been taken to the extreme both by players and developers.

I think myself and others are looking for a game that maybe falls somewhere between old school EQ and DAoC. The genre needs games that do not punish soloers or groupers, but instead rewards appropriate risk/rewards based on what you are doing and the difficultly. Less hack and slash, less fps, and more dynamic.  Something that is challenging but rewards accordingly.  Something that gets people interacting again, sitting around and bsing while they level.