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10/15/09 4:55:50 PM#101
Originally posted by xzyax
True, an 8.7 might very well be the equivalent of a B+... But I challenge anyone to find a higher rated game reviewed from MMORPG.COM
Just for point of reference; here is the score MMORPG.COM gave some other fairly popular MMOs:
From the review score at least... it would appear that MMORPG.COM is endorsing that Aion is the best MMO currently available. I haven't tried it, so I can't say one way or the other. I just thought it fair to point out that for a MMORPG.COM review score; an 8.7 IS Epic!
/Signed I haven't played Aion either and wont comment on the fairness of the score, but 8,7 definately is epic on mmorpg.com. Unlike some of the others I will however add that I generally think that mmorpg.com makes some of the best reviews and give fair scores. That does not mean that they cant be a few decimals off mark sometimes though. But if the reviewer already gave the score based on relativity, then I wont complain(but I doubt it). |
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10/15/09 5:02:46 PM#102
Originally posted by Xantheous
Nice! That is exactly what I was saying. Have to agree with everyone else questioning the scoring of this review. This question is to Jon Wood: Is the intent of this site to let every review stand on it's own? Or do you guys shoot for a score that compares the new games merits to those that have come before it ... i.e. a relative scoring approach? Based on the data posted by xyzax, it appears you guys are using a "vacuum" approach to reviews. The reviewer fairly admits that the game does nothing new which screams "average", 7 out of 10, a 'C' grade to most people. He unabashedly admits he likes the art style and there is a general overly-enthusiastic tone to the whole piece. A neutral reader can't help but come away from the review thinking that the meat of the review does not match the tone and final score of the review. I believe in order for reviews to mean something beyond being a fanboy or hater dissertation corroborating their point of view, there has to be meaning to the scale. A relational approach is more useful in that one can, at a glance, look at the rating of a new game and be able to compare it to the highest (and lowest) rated games to get a relative feel of it's place in the MMO universe. From the body of evidence around the web and within the MMORPG review itself, the consensus is that Aion is a solid but generic MMO title but certainly not a trendsetter as the MMORPG rating portends. |
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10/15/09 5:06:18 PM#103
There's no way that GM's are even patrolling, much less banning, any gold spammers. My block list filled up days ago and the scroll of spam makes both general and lfg channels worthless. Finally i created a tab with all the options except for the 2 channels. As far as them game goes, its ok but not great. There is a bit of a grind, because while there are some quests to level on their very generic and the rewards are awful. I havent worn any gear for at least 15 levels (18-33) that came from a quest and the exp usually is so low that u lose exp per hour if u take the time to run back and return. Grinding seems to be the best way of leveling, speed wise at least, with some campaign quests thrown in. Im playin now but probably wont for the long term just for the simple reason that even when i get to a new area it feels like the last area and im left with the feelin"what am i doin this for and is it really any fun?" Pvp combat is pretty fun depending on which end of the ganking ur on. The bright spot is how pretty the game is, which is really encouraging to me b/c hopefully we have some designers out there willing to combine the tech with a good story line and some emmersive gameplay |
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10/15/09 5:12:13 PM#104
Originally posted by Dragonalf
Whoa, wait a minute.
Not doing something new equals average? really? You are then saying that if a game does nothing new but there are bugs all over the place and the writing is sub par and the combat is the same type of combat but just doesn't capture any sense of excitement then that is average? Not bad? And to further that point, if a game uses the same techniques and same types of story telling and combat types but the writing is sharp and exemplary, the combat, though the same type of combat, is fast and exciting and The game is very polished then that is also average? Reviews should be based around what the game is trying to accomplish and whether or not it does that. If I review a newly released rock album I'm not going to say "music is in the same stale key signatures, all 4/4 time, maybe something in compound time thrown in, the obligatory quarter note equals 120 which should make you all want to jump out a window, same whiney subject matter about teen angst and rarely modulates to anything other than the dominant. Grade C. I'm going to say "ok, here is a rock song. It falls in the genre of a rock song so how does it stand up to what a rock song should be?" |
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10/15/09 5:14:56 PM#105
I played Aion a bunch, couldn't be bothered to actually subscribe. I'd never give this game an 8.7, but the reviewer is certainly entitled to his opinion. If Aion had come out 5 years ago I'd give it an 8.7. But there's nothing new here. I'm looking for new, not polished same. Thats why I'm not subscribing to Aion. |
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10/15/09 5:15:18 PM#106
Have to agree with everyone else questioning the scoring of this review.
Answer these questions. And no I'm not being smart@ss. What other major MMO title has done aerial combat/character flight (meaning no mount.) What other major MMO has a combat system that allows for chains to be connected in such a way that you don't have to worry about putting them all into your tool bar? What other MMO has a world that is comprised in layers and has an abyss that is also comprised of layers and a multiple artifact system that can turn the tide of a pvp raid? Personal hand crafted guild icons? The rift system? Again I'm not being smart I'm really asking what else is out there that does some of these things really? Because if not then I'd call some of these things if not all in it's entire package trend setting for it's genre.
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10/15/09 5:16:46 PM#107
Originally posted by Sovrath
Whoa, wait a minute.
Not doing something new equals average? really? You are then saying that if a game does nothing new but there are bugs all over the place and the writing is sub par and the combat is the same type of combat but just doesn't capture any sense of excitement then that is average? Not bad? And to further that point, if a game uses the same techniques and same types of story telling and combat types but the writing is sharp and exemplary, the combat, though the same type of combat, is fast and exciting and The game is very polished then that is also average? Reviews should be based around what the game is trying to accomplish and whether or not it does that. If I review a newly released rock album I'm not going to say "music is in the same stale key signatures, all 4/4 time, maybe something in compound time thrown in, the obligatory quarter note equals 120 which should make you all want to jump out a window, same whiney subject matter about teen angst and rarely modulates to anything other than the dominant. Grade C. I'm going to say "ok, here is a rock song. It falls in the genre of a rock song so how does it stand up to what a rock song should be?"
Excellent analogy!!!
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10/15/09 5:17:30 PM#108
Originally posted by Dana
Nah its more like A-.... which is too good imo. :P ------------------------------------- Before: developers loved games and made money. Now: developers love money and make games. |
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10/15/09 5:19:54 PM#109
Originally posted by Dragonalf
Nice! That is exactly what I was saying. Have to agree with everyone else questioning the scoring of this review. This question is to Jon Wood: Is the intent of this site to let every review stand on it's own? Or do you guys shoot for a score that compares the new games merits to those that have come before it ... i.e. a relative scoring approach? Based on the data posted by xyzax, it appears you guys are using a "vacuum" approach to reviews. The reviewer fairly admits that the game does nothing new which screams "average", 7 out of 10, a 'C' grade to most people. He unabashedly admits he likes the art style and there is a general overly-enthusiastic tone to the whole piece. A neutral reader can't help but come away from the review thinking that the meat of the review does not match the tone and final score of the review. I believe in order for reviews to mean something beyond being a fanboy or hater dissertation corroborating their point of view, there has to be meaning to the scale. A relational approach is more useful in that one can, at a glance, look at the rating of a new game and be able to compare it to the highest (and lowest) rated games to get a relative feel of it's place in the MMO universe. From the body of evidence around the web and within the MMORPG review itself, the consensus is that Aion is a solid but generic MMO title but certainly not a trendsetter as the MMORPG rating portends. Well said. (Good points as well from Bluefix ).
I also think that MMORPG.COM does a rather good job with their reviews and their scores. I wouldn't have even popped into this thread, or made the table above; except for Dana's comment on the 8.7 score.
When I read it, I immediately tried to think of a single MMORPG.COM review score that was higher than 8.7. I couldn't think of a single one, so I went and click on the last 100 or so MMO's to see the MMORPG.COM review score. (That brings up another point... it would be nice to see the MMORPG.COM review score in the Main game list, not just the player review score).
Anyway, unless I missed one; my suspicions were confirmed. An 8.7 is the highest score I found. So, when a staff person from MMORPG.COM makes a post that comes across as trying to "justify" an 8.7 score because of how it relates to a perfect 10... I decided to make it known how an 8.7 score stacks up here on MMORPG.COM. (And no... I don't have anything against Dana... quite the opposite. Dana just happened to be the one that made the post).
So, in summary: I do not know if Aion deserves an 8.7 score... that wasn't the point of the table above. I did want everyone to know that in comparison to EVERY other review score here on MMORPG.COM... 8.7 IS EPIC! |
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10/15/09 5:29:30 PM#110
Originally posted by xzyax
The problem is that there are too many variable. Or at least one big variable, the reveiws were probably not written by the same person. One person's 8.7 is another's 7.5 to another's 9.1. They would actually have to come up with a simple yet quatifiable way to even out their reviews to really compare them. Such as: scale of 1-3 1 game breaking bugs scale of 1-3 Well, you get the idea. |
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10/15/09 5:31:26 PM#111
Originally posted by mmaize
Answer these questions. And no I'm not being smart@ss. What other major MMO title has done aerial combat/character flight (meaning no mount.) What other major MMO has a combat system that allows for chains to be connected in such a way that you don't have to worry about putting them all into your tool bar? What other MMO has a world that is comprised in layers and has an abyss that is also comprised of layers and a multiple artifact system that can turn the tide of a pvp raid? Personal hand crafted guild icons? The rift system? Again I'm not being smart I'm really asking what else is out there that does some of these things really? Because if not then I'd call some of these things if not all in it's entire package trend setting for it's genre.
Still waiting on answers...
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10/15/09 5:34:37 PM#112
doesn't deserve 8.7,
reviewer get to level 30, then we'll talk... up to 25 the game is perfect, after that.... goes downhill drastically.
it's a 6/10 or a generous 7 simply because of PvP, graphics and character select. crafting is a joke (that 20 second mini game crafting and gathering ugh), PvE is awful, we won't go into the grind when you run out of quests argh. abyss armour does look sweet even at 30 though. doesn't help the grind. (want the first blue set, get 4 more alts to 30... joy) want a soley PvP game - look elsewhere, want a soley PvE game? get the hell out of aion. Want a mix of both - other games do it better
"nothing actually matters, we're just slightly evolved monkeys clinging to a dying piece of rock hurtling through space waiting for our eventual death." - Frankie Boyle, Mock The Week |
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10/15/09 5:34:52 PM#113
Originally posted by Sovrath
Whoa, wait a minute.
Not doing something new equals average? really? You are then saying that if a game does nothing new but there are bugs all over the place and the writing is sub par and the combat is the same type of combat but just doesn't capture any sense of excitement then that is average? Not bad? And to further that point, if a game uses the same techniques and same types of story telling and combat types but the writing is sharp and exemplary, the combat, though the same type of combat, is fast and exciting and The game is very polished then that is also average? Reviews should be based around what the game is trying to accomplish and whether or not it does that. If I review a newly released rock album I'm not going to say "music is in the same stale key signatures, all 4/4 time, maybe something in compound time thrown in, the obligatory quarter note equals 120 which should make you all want to jump out a window, same whiney subject matter about teen angst and rarely modulates to anything other than the dominant. Grade C. I'm going to say "ok, here is a rock song. It falls in the genre of a rock song so how does it stand up to what a rock song should be?" I think you're reading a little more into my point than was intended ... But, anyway, I agree with what you say about a review being based around what the game is trying to accomplish and whether or not it does that. But it should also be relatable to what has already come before in the genre. If a new MMO breaks no new ground in any appreciable way and a review of the game essentially states this, then the game should not be rated above it's peers. To be fair, I probably should have worded my initial statement to indicate this rather than imply I think Aion should be rated a '7'. I honestly don't know since I haven't played it but from the tone of the review and by relative comparison to it's peers I don't believe it should be rated any higher than an 8.5. |
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10/15/09 5:42:56 PM#114
Originally posted by mmaize
Answer these questions. And no I'm not being smart@ss. What other major MMO title has done aerial combat/character flight (meaning no mount.) What other major MMO has a combat system that allows for chains to be connected in such a way that you don't have to worry about putting them all into your tool bar? What other MMO has a world that is comprised in layers and has an abyss that is also comprised of layers and a multiple artifact system that can turn the tide of a pvp raid? Personal hand crafted guild icons? The rift system? Again I'm not being smart I'm really asking what else is out there that does some of these things really? Because if not then I'd call some of these things if not all in it's entire package trend setting for it's genre. Not sure how close it matches the "chains" combat system that Aion has, but LoTRO introduced something similar in it's two new classes with the MoM expansion. The Warden's gambits and the Rune Keeper's attunement function in a similar way it sounds. Also the Group Fellowship maneuvers are somewhat similar as well. Here is a short explanation of them: Rune Keeper Attunement explained
I'm not an expert on the subject... but I do follow a lot of MMOs. Just thought I'd point out that there is something similar from the sound of it. |
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10/15/09 5:43:10 PM#115
The review glosses over a hell of a lot and no it doesn't deserve the score. Until the end game matures the game practically only exists for the first 20 levels, followed by little else to do but a hell of a lot of grinding and ganking. The first 20 levels (or so) are also so incredebly linear and generic it gets old very quickly rolling alts.
Nice graphics and animations, but the game is a step backwards not forward. |
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10/15/09 5:48:21 PM#116
Originally posted by Dragonalf I think you're reading a little more into my point than was intended ... But, anyway, I agree with what you say about a review being based around what the game is trying to accomplish and whether or not it does that. But it should also be relatable to what has already come before in the genre. If a new MMO breaks no new ground in any appreciable way and a review of the game essentially states this, then the game should not be rated above it's peers. To be fair, I probably should have worded my initial statement to indicate this rather than imply I think Aion should be rated a '7'. I honestly don't know since I haven't played it but from the tone of the review and by relative comparison to it's peers I don't believe it should be rated any higher than an 8.5.
So you haven't played Aion and you are criticizing the score of the game. |
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10/15/09 5:49:10 PM#117
Originally posted by mmaize
Still waiting on answers... Not meaning to be flippant here but what you're asking is really irrelevant to the discussion about the validity of the rating as pertaining to the content of the MMORPG review and then comparing it to other MMO reviews on this site. You may feel these are exceptional points to make but apparently the MMORPG reviewer did not feel the same way. I can only assume that if he personally felt these were worthy of mention, he would have. Yet, he does go out of his way to point out that, in general, Aion does nothing really new or spectacular ... |
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mtinnin73
 Apprentice Member
Joined: 6/20/06
Do what makes you happy, cause your the only one who knows what you want in life. |
10/15/09 5:50:57 PM#118
AION is a really good game as far as I'm concerned, the only thing that bothered me was that the beta testers didn't get anything out of testing the game at all unless you managed to go out and buy the game. I was hoping they would be the first to actually give the beta testers something other than little gifts ingame. but hey, there's other games and I really hope that this game takes off and does good for a long time to come..... |
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10/15/09 5:53:50 PM#119
Originally posted by Dragonalf I think you're reading a little more into my point than was intended ... But, anyway, I agree with what you say about a review being based around what the game is trying to accomplish and whether or not it does that. But it should also be relatable to what has already come before in the genre. If a new MMO breaks no new ground in any appreciable way and a review of the game essentially states this, then the game should not be rated above it's peers. To be fair, I probably should have worded my initial statement to indicate this rather than imply I think Aion should be rated a '7'. I honestly don't know since I haven't played it but from the tone of the review and by relative comparison to it's peers I don't believe it should be rated any higher than an 8.5.
But most music and movies don't really break any appreciable new ground. And they get decent to even rave reviews all the time. Well, the good ones anyways. If a game does not break any new ground but does everything right then it should get a good review. If a game were to completely turn the genre on top of its head and do it the right way it should get an amazing review. Conversely, if a game were to completely turn the genre on top of it's head but it isn't fun, it's buggy, and the art design is not enough to draw the player in (not saying it has to be high level graphics now, just convincing, even it it's 2D) then it should get a bad review. In my opinion, being that the total is greater than the sum of its parts, Aion deserves anwhere within 7.5 to somewhere in the 8's. No higher. And I'm a fan with 2 accounts. it does fall back on old style gameplay. Luckily it does it well enough and incorporates a vareity of features in an inspiring (for those who can be inspired by this type of art design and world) world. It is a good solid fun game that is cast in the light of a traditional mmo. None of the "new" features they touted made it in the game that I can see so it falls squarely in the wow, lotro, eq 2 school of games. or even Everquest. (though was never able to get far in eq as it was too old for my taste so I can't exactly comment on that to any detail). |
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10/15/09 6:01:37 PM#120
Originally posted by FastTx I think you're reading a little more into my point than was intended ... But, anyway, I agree with what you say about a review being based around what the game is trying to accomplish and whether or not it does that. But it should also be relatable to what has already come before in the genre. If a new MMO breaks no new ground in any appreciable way and a review of the game essentially states this, then the game should not be rated above it's peers. To be fair, I probably should have worded my initial statement to indicate this rather than imply I think Aion should be rated a '7'. I honestly don't know since I haven't played it but from the tone of the review and by relative comparison to it's peers I don't believe it should be rated any higher than an 8.5.
So you haven't played Aion and you are criticizing the score of the game. Yep, exactly! I'm criticizing the score of the game ... NOT the game itself. My contention is with how the score, tone of the review, and comparison to genre scores of other MMOs don't relate on this site.
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Shreddi
 Novice Member
Joined: 3/10/04
"The decisions you make today will effect the rest of your life" |
10/15/09 6:03:10 PM#121
Oh well, I never got past 17 and it was the same old mmo grind I was hoping to avoid. I do hear its great past 20 and gets better and better. After Beta I bought the game and cant get myself to grind to even 7 yet (keep goin back to other mmo). Still playing pop a mole, weasle, bird, crab or what ever little animal is around. Ah and I picked Ranger too and I hear thats extra boring in begining. Did chanter before and was more exciting at lower levels. If I havent played all the betas I would be lovin the game. Just have to put in the time and do the grind. This post is intentionally written not to make any sense what so ever. Thank You Very Much. |
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10/15/09 6:05:11 PM#122
Here's my very concise review of Aion, after spending much time in it in beta:
"SOSDD"
(Same Old @#$%, Different Day)
Gee, I wonder what the next MMORPG will be that underwhelms me? |
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10/15/09 6:05:17 PM#123
Originally posted by Sovrath I think you're reading a little more into my point than was intended ... But, anyway, I agree with what you say about a review being based around what the game is trying to accomplish and whether or not it does that. But it should also be relatable to what has already come before in the genre. If a new MMO breaks no new ground in any appreciable way and a review of the game essentially states this, then the game should not be rated above it's peers. To be fair, I probably should have worded my initial statement to indicate this rather than imply I think Aion should be rated a '7'. I honestly don't know since I haven't played it but from the tone of the review and by relative comparison to it's peers I don't believe it should be rated any higher than an 8.5.
But most music and movies don't really break any appreciable new ground. And they get decent to even rave reviews all the time. Well, the good ones anyways. If a game does not break any new ground but does everything right then it should get a good review. If a game were to completely turn the genre on top of its head and do it the right way it should get an amazing review. Conversely, if a game were to completely turn the genre on top of it's head but it isn't fun, it's buggy, and the art design is not enough to draw the player in (not saying it has to be high level graphics now, just convincing, even it it's 2D) then it should get a bad review. In my opinion, being that the total is greater than the sum of its parts, Aion deserves anwhere within 7.5 to somewhere in the 8's. No higher. And I'm a fan with 2 accounts. it does fall back on old style gameplay. Luckily it does it well enough and incorporates a vareity of features in an inspiring (for those who can be inspired by this type of art design and world) world. It is a good solid fun game that is cast in the light of a traditional mmo. None of the "new" features they touted made it in the game that I can see so it falls squarely in the wow, lotro, eq 2 school of games. or even Everquest. (though was never able to get far in eq as it was too old for my taste so I can't exactly comment on that to any detail). I think we agree then on a more reasonable score though our reasons for this new score come from different rationales. =) |
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10/15/09 6:23:12 PM#124
Originally posted by Sovrath
The problem is that there are too many variable. Or at least one big variable, the reveiws were probably not written by the same person. One person's 8.7 is another's 7.5 to another's 9.1. They would actually have to come up with a simple yet quatifiable way to even out their reviews to really compare them. Such as: scale of 1-3 1 game breaking bugs scale of 1-3 Well, you get the idea. I see where you are coming from, but I do think that a site is responsible for making sure that all scores on it's site are in line with the standards that they have set for themselves. I am under the assumption that this review for Aion did in fact get approved for posting as the official MMORPG.COM review by staff/admin here.
So yes, while each individual reviewer does in fact have different standards for what each particular MMO may score... it is up to the site admin themselves to make sure that those submitted reviews and scores match the standards of the site.
The scores I showed in the table I did were all from MMORPG.COM only... not from other sites. So, in that respect anyway they SHOULD be comparable. Remember, I have no problem with Aion receiving an 8.7 score. I do have a problem with a MMORPG.COM staff person posting in this thread and saying a 8.7 score is only good, not Epic.
When it's the highest score ever given on this site... then yeah... it is EPIC. To say otherwise is being misleading at best. |
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10/15/09 6:23:40 PM#125
Originally posted by Dragonalf
Still waiting on answers... Not meaning to be flippant here but what you're asking is really irrelevant to the discussion about the validity of the rating as pertaining to the content of the MMORPG review and then comparing it to other MMO reviews on this site. You may feel these are exceptional points to make but apparently the MMORPG reviewer did not feel the same way. I can only assume that if he personally felt these were worthy of mention, he would have. Yet, he does go out of his way to point out that, in general, Aion does nothing really new or spectacular ...
The point is completely relevant considering the fact that people keep mentioning innovation as a sticking point. So if there's no contest to the questions of what Aion brings to the table then obviously it is innovative and therefore should contribute to the rating regardless if the reviewer that is being critiqued did so or not. In otherwords if someone is going to use that against the reviewer then they better be able to answer to the things that are indeed innovative.
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