Originally posted by Venger

I solo a lot, in part because of my schedule and in part because the mechanics of grouping is terrible. Plus the general reward system of mmo is terrible and brings out the worst in most people.

You want more grouping fix it don't force it. You want more people to interact create a better reward system that doesn't everyone against each other.

Developers have made mmo into big competitions pitting everyone against everyone else and we all wonder why people would rather play alone.

It is no different then the real financial problems.  You create a market where the worst of the worst get a head the quickest.

It's funny a mmo like UO which could be soloed from beginning to end has had one of the best communities out there.

Aye well said Venger. In Ultima Online I had more group action and player interactivity going on in my journey playing the game than I did in 99% of the current gen MMOG's today. And yet Ultima Online had stronger ''solo'' options than many games today, and yet there was such a rich community full of player interactivity, co-op play and playing the game with others...  And yet look at the games we have today and even though there have slightly less solo parts in them to some degree depending on the game, everyone and their mother is soloing to do everything, no journey with other players, no loving / hate drama community, no nothing, It is more empty than the Buddha Monk himself!

Well...just look at all the hatred from the soloers on these forums to get an idea of what I'm talking about.

I also believe players mentalities are partly to blame. But that doesn't leave developers out of the equation.
 

Originally posted by AstralMystic

It is only the result of Ignorance. A massive multi player online role playing game.

This genre is like the seed of a great tree and the poison that does not allow It to grow is solo game design.

A gamer should be allowed to play the game and have experiences without grouping but the core component that is needed for this genre to grow is community and grouping.

Player interactivity, grouping and community is as important to keeping this genre alive as food is to our bodies.

Without It, It becomes a dead life form.

I feel suitable chastised.

Originally posted by AstralMystic

Aye well said Venger. In Ultima Online I had more group action and player interactivity going on in my journey playing the game than I did in 99% of the current gen MMOG's today. And yet Ultima Online had stronger ''solo'' options than many games today, and yet there was such a rich community full of player interactivity, co-op play and playing the game with others...  And yet look at the games we have today and even though there have slightly less solo parts in them to some degree depending on the game, everyone and their mother is soloing to do everything, no journey with other players, no loving / hate drama community, no nothing, It is more empty than the Buddha Monk himself!

Well...just look at all the hatred from the soloers on these forums to get an idea of what I'm talking about.

I also believe players mentalities are partly to blame. But that doesn't leave developers out of the equation.
 

That is true but that mentality is the caused by the group and reward mechanics. 

People grouped in UO to stay alive, people are forced into groups now for the phat loot.  Adding a lesser skilled/leveled player to your group in UO did nothing to the whole of the group now that lesser person will get you killed.  Adding more people to your group lessens the % chance you will win the phat loot roll.

The problem is if you redo grouping so it was less rigid it also loses it's hardcoreness.  So there is the choice you either get a community game or a hardcore game.

Real life is massively multiplayer, but that doesn't mean I want to do everything it offers with 39 * other people.

(* I use 39 as an example, please feel free to substitute other numbers here as appropriate)

You show your ignorance when you equate massive multiplayer to forced grouping.

Originally posted by Gestankfaust

MMO does NOT mean group...period. It means a lot of people doing what you would do in a persistant world. Which is whatever the hell you want.

get over yourselves.

amen, key feature is that world is moving and real people is running around you, forcing to group to get something in these games are only poison. freedom of choise!

cheers

My two cents?  Apologies if this has come up in pages 2-7 somewhere, but... it's kind of hard to group in some MMOs if the level distribution doesn't favor the level you're at.  You'd be one of maybe 2% of the population that wants to do something lowlevel, where 70% of the population is in the last levels leading up to endgame and only wants to do endgame content, and gets irritated by people asking for low level things.

So what your saying is that Game designers are suppose to only make group content not soloing?

so if your on the game at 1am and no one or no one your level is on at that time then what are you suppose to do ...

pay them money for doing nothing?

Sometimes i like to group and some times i like the solo. I think i should have the choose to pick either, and making solo content in MMOs are just so you dont have to be FORCED into something you dont feel like or want to do.

as someone pointed out before ... MMO doesnt mean grouping. 

Originally posted by AstralMystic

It is only the result of Ignorance. A massive multi player online role playing game.

This genre is like the seed of a great tree and the poison that does not allow It to grow is solo game design.

A gamer should be allowed to play the game and have experiences without grouping but the core component that is needed for this genre to grow is community and grouping.

Player interactivity, grouping and community is as important to keeping this genre alive as food is to our bodies.

Without It, It becomes a dead life form.

Let me start off by saying that I am an advocator for grouping in MMOs. Let me continue and saying that I don't think you are right. Just because someone is playing solo doesn't mean they are not apart of the community and effecting the world in some way shape or form. In an offline game other people can't affect your world. You cannot be an island on an MMO. You might solo and kill a mob that some guy was going to come up and kill. Now that mob isn't there where if both were playing an offline game the mob would be pickings for both. Microcosm of what the soloer will do to an online world, but you can defer the bigger picture.

While I think that people are missing out big time by not interacting with others it is their choice. They might choose to solo because the player base is not on par with the players goals, but they still enjoy the game enough to play it. For instance the player base might want shiney pixels while the player wants to have fun.

I come from the group heavy FFXI. That game you really can't play if you don't have more than I'd suggest 2-3 hours to play in one block. Some people who function in society don't have large chunks of time like that to devote to a game. If they game was a little more solo friendly those people would be more likely to be able to play because they can skip the LFP section of the day. More people more, diverse community, less % of assholes, more enjoyability overall. Then again I think in the exact case of FFXI if there were more soloability I would not have enjoyed the game nearly as much as I did. Two sides to the coin ... i know.

My personal thoughts are that you should be interacting with people both offline and online. I mean honestly it isn't cool to be a sociopath one world let alone two. There are reasons to go lone wolf. As long as you know you are a functioning member of a society (which is something gamers in general can have trouble with) and that all your actions have consequences in an online world soloing is okay.

Originally posted by AstralMystic

It is only the result of Ignorance. A massive multi player online role playing game.

This genre is like the seed of a great tree and the poison that does not allow It to grow is solo game design.

A gamer should be allowed to play the game and have experiences without grouping but the core component that is needed for this genre to grow is community and grouping.

Player interactivity, grouping and community is as important to keeping this genre alive as food is to our bodies.

Without It, It becomes a dead life form.

Agreed. Soloing kills games. Although, there needs to be some type of solo option. All efforts need to go into forcing people to group. Rewards for grouping, instead of penalties for soloers/groupers. IMO, the best motivator to group would to not take any XP away. If a mob gives 1000 XP solo, then it gives that many in a group. Trust me, people would start grouping.

Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by Kaisen_Dexx

I believe that solo and group are mutually exclusive terms. People follow the path of least resistance, and when it is easy to not have to rely on anyone else, no one will. I first noticed this when I tried to go back to EQ2 several years ago.

When EQ2 first started there were tons of people grouping, because the solo exp was quite pathetic. The populace kept asking for more solo content, and to make soloing easier. Then, over time, soloing reached the efficiency of grouping. And grouping pretty much died. I went back several months before the Kunark expansion and spent the whole month in LFG (I didn't just sit there, I solo'd but kept trying to put groups together). I got one group and it was for The Temple of Cazic Thule. I played a Bard.

The whole experience rather jaded me, and truthfully, caused me to start hating "Casual friendly" and solo oriented play, especially when there are very few games that cater to the heavy grouping mechanic these days.

 

Life and reality prove this theory wrong.  You see, in the real world, some people climb mountains together, and others go it alone.  Some people jog with friends, others prefer to go solo. 

Reality sucks, huh?

Should soloing be banned? No, the OP didn't say that. If you want to go out and slay large rats, then that should be acceptable. However, if you think you should walk into a goblin's lair and kill them all. That is ridiculous. In reality, one man, isn't walking into an armed fort, and killing everyone. That only happens in movies.

Speaking of reality, when you walk up to a mob, and start beating him senseless, and his buddy 10 feet away out of agro range is just staring at it happen, how exactly is that based off reality?

Originally posted by AstralMystic

It is only the result of Ignorance. A massive multi player online role playing game.

This genre is like the seed of a great tree and the poison that does not allow It to grow is solo game design.

A gamer should be allowed to play the game and have experiences without grouping but the core component that is needed for this genre to grow is community and grouping.

Player interactivity, grouping and community is as important to keeping this genre alive as food is to our bodies.

Without It, It becomes a dead life form.

Hello AstralMystic,

I would not call not grouping necessarily ignorant. Or the people that do not group ignorant. In a MMORPG , the purpose is not forced grouping or even soloing. The purpose is to create a virtual world of adventure where all players can have a piece of the pie. While having fun doing so!

In my experience there are some more group friendly MMORPG's, as well as solo friendly MMORPG's.

As to community and interaction. Believe it or not it really does not matter if its a MMORPG to have a good community. I have played MMORPG's for many years. But, my clan for Call of Duty IV is probably the second best community I personally have been in. My first was in Everquest. Believe it or not my Everquest guild was actually a transfer from our online Mechwarrior III/IV clan prior.

My group of friends(guild) have been in quite a few games with me. From EQ to Star War Galaxies, to total domination in Dark Age of Camelot. Community does not make or break a MMORPG. While I believe it is important, it does not mean that it should be a standard. A good example: World of Warcraft,this game is around 60% soloing 40% grouping. If you are a raider its a mix of 40% interaction,60% grouping(for raids).

Things to think about. So you will consider what you are writing on a thread next time.

Some players solo due to time constraints. Real Life issues ect(Work, Family, Doctors.. just name it).

While I understand your conviction. Some players may not be as attentive as you are.

In a MMORPG you have all walks of life. This includes younger, older, shy, outgoing, hostile, friendly. Who you personally deal with should be up to you.(Why forced grouping is a NO-NO).

When playing a MMORPG finding that niche community that is just for you is a BONUS! If you are looking of course .

Wish you the best!

Sincerely Jerry.

Originally posted by brostyn

Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by Kaisen_Dexx

I believe that solo and group are mutually exclusive terms. People follow the path of least resistance, and when it is easy to not have to rely on anyone else, no one will. I first noticed this when I tried to go back to EQ2 several years ago.

When EQ2 first started there were tons of people grouping, because the solo exp was quite pathetic. The populace kept asking for more solo content, and to make soloing easier. Then, over time, soloing reached the efficiency of grouping. And grouping pretty much died. I went back several months before the Kunark expansion and spent the whole month in LFG (I didn't just sit there, I solo'd but kept trying to put groups together). I got one group and it was for The Temple of Cazic Thule. I played a Bard.

The whole experience rather jaded me, and truthfully, caused me to start hating "Casual friendly" and solo oriented play, especially when there are very few games that cater to the heavy grouping mechanic these days.

 

Life and reality prove this theory wrong.  You see, in the real world, some people climb mountains together, and others go it alone.  Some people jog with friends, others prefer to go solo. 

Reality sucks, huh?

 

Should soloing be banned? No, the OP didn't say that. If you want to go out and slay large rats, then that should be acceptable. However, if you think you should walk into a goblin's lair and kill them all. That is ridiculous. In reality, one man, isn't walking into an armed fort, and killing everyone. That only happens in movies.

Speaking of reality, when you walk up to a mob, and start beating him senseless, and his buddy 10 feet away out of agro range is just staring at it happen, how exactly is that based off reality?

Well said Brostyn.
 

Originally posted by brostyn

Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by Kaisen_Dexx

I believe that solo and group are mutually exclusive terms. People follow the path of least resistance, and when it is easy to not have to rely on anyone else, no one will. I first noticed this when I tried to go back to EQ2 several years ago.

When EQ2 first started there were tons of people grouping, because the solo exp was quite pathetic. The populace kept asking for more solo content, and to make soloing easier. Then, over time, soloing reached the efficiency of grouping. And grouping pretty much died. I went back several months before the Kunark expansion and spent the whole month in LFG (I didn't just sit there, I solo'd but kept trying to put groups together). I got one group and it was for The Temple of Cazic Thule. I played a Bard.

The whole experience rather jaded me, and truthfully, caused me to start hating "Casual friendly" and solo oriented play, especially when there are very few games that cater to the heavy grouping mechanic these days.

 

Life and reality prove this theory wrong.  You see, in the real world, some people climb mountains together, and others go it alone.  Some people jog with friends, others prefer to go solo. 

Reality sucks, huh?

 

Should soloing be banned? No, the OP didn't say that. If you want to go out and slay large rats, then that should be acceptable. However, if you think you should walk into a goblin's lair and kill them all. That is ridiculous. In reality, one man, isn't walking into an armed fort, and killing everyone. That only happens in movies.

Speaking of reality, when you walk up to a mob, and start beating him senseless, and his buddy 10 feet away out of agro range is just staring at it happen, how exactly is that based off reality?

I have yet to see any advocate of solo play state that they should be able to solo Onyxia. 

Why so black and white?

People who only ever solo are a small minority.
People who only ever group are a small minority too.

The vast majority of people enjoy (to a varying degree) a combination of both playstyles.

A good developer will cater to groupers and soloers.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Why so black and white?

People who only ever solo are a small minority.
People who only ever group are a small minority too.

The vast majority of people enjoy (to a varying degree) a combination of both playstyles.

A good developer will cater to groupers and soloers.

Now you're just being ridiculous!

:p

Too many people are of the incorrect belief that you cannot have both.  Generally, it is groupers who are of this incorrect belief.

@AstralMystic

Do you consider EVE Online and Ultima Online to be MMORPGs?

Do you feel that the presence of viable solo gameplay in those two games is bad design?

Originally posted by LynxJSA

 

@AstralMystic

Do you consider EVE Online and Ultima Online to be MMORPGs?

Do you feel that the presence of viable solo gameplay in those two games is bad design?

Yes I consider both to be MMORPG's but I do not have much experience with EVE. 

I do not feel that the presence of solo options in Ultima Online is bad beacuse the core design of the game ( Atleast when I played It ) heavily encouraged player interactivity, co-op play, community and grouping.

Again when the presence of solo possibilties is successfully implemented into a game but does not jar the experience of player interactivity and grouping, then I keep my mouth closed ;)

Read some other of my posts in this thread if you want to know more of my thoughts on Ultima Online.

Not agree with OP. you dont need to group in order to interact with a player. Now if people are complaining because there are not enough group-based quests, then please list the game and make a new thread on that specific game forum.

Until a MMO dev comes with a pure group-based MMO where all quests must be done in groups this subject is pointless. And in the case there is a MMO like that, it's going to fail as not all the players can log at the same time. I imagine the chat being a spam fest of LFG QQing.

Originally posted by Gestankfaust

MMO does NOT mean group...period. It means a lot of people doing what you would do in a persistant world. Which is whatever the hell you want.

get over yourselves.

This!

Massive = large

Multiplayer = other players around me

Online = thru the interwebz

/nuffsaid

what the genre has done is this (in my opinion)

actively supporting and promoting grouping (sometimes forced)

to

hampering grouping (to stop powerlevellers) and only promoting it in the endgame

to (now)

not actively promoting grouping but not hampering it either

So basically with these new MMO's it's up to the player to form the groups and make your own fun.  Some people can't do that and others can (like me).  CO was a good example, i grouped with a friend and 2 strangers for the entire time we were in Canada.  Did we need to?  not at all.  Was it fun?  Hell yes.

IMO you should have your choice to solo/play with group etc.
Unfortunately you cannot always get what you want.
If you build a game up on Group play it IS going to die sooner or later(usually sooner).
On the other hand if you try to leave players some choice it usually drags towards people rushing trough the game alone.
For me that kind of playing kind of loses the point of MMO and since people start soloing, group play is pretty much out of the question unless you have friends to play with.
So the developers have a choice. Solo = could be a long living MMO or Group = MMO will die utterly fast.
Sadly enough there pretty much isn't a golden middle-road.

I'll compare this argument to a scene from the classic movie "The big Lebowski", in which Walter brings Cynthia's prize winning Pomeranian the the alley.

The Dude "you brought the f**in' pomeranian bowling?"

Walter responds "what do you mean brought it bowling, dude? i didn't rent it shoes. i'm not buying it a f**ing beer. he's not taking your f**g turn, dude".

How does this relate? Simple. You and i are playing the same game, that is where the similarity ends. You aren't paying my subscription fee, and I yours. The game is the bowling alley and what i feel like doing should be up to me and i should not be forced to bowl with you.

The best games know how to blend multiple playstyles into their game. This maxmizes the fanbase attraction and helps to ensure a longer and healthier lifespan.

If i had the OP's mentality, i would post some thread out there that there should be no such thing as raiding in mmo's as it ruins balancing and turns a game into an unpaid parttime job. Instead, i let others enjoy that playstyle and play my own game, happy as a clam. If i did post that though, i would be a troll too.

Originally posted by Kungaloosh1

I'll compare this argument to a scene from the classic movie "The big Lebowski", in which Walter brings Cynthia's prize winning Pomeranian the the alley.

The Dude "you brought the f**in' pomeranian bowling?"

Walter responds "what do you mean brought it bowling, dude? i didn't rent it shoes. i'm not buying it a f**ing beer. he's not taking your f**g turn, dude".

 

How does this relate? Simple. You and i are playing the same game, that is where the similarity ends. You aren't paying my subscription fee, and I yours. The game is the bowling alley and what i feel like doing should be up to me and i should not be forced to bowl with you.

The best games know how to blend multiple playstyles into their game. This maxmizes the fanbase attraction and helps to ensure a longer and healthier lifespan.

If i had the OP's mentality, i would post some thread out there that there should be no such thing as raiding in mmo's as it ruins balancing and turns a game into an unpaid parttime job. Instead, i let others enjoy that playstyle and play my own game, happy as a clam. If i did post that though, i would be a troll too.

 

I never said total removing of solo play, I never said games shouldn't be allowed to have certain kinds of solo play. And I most certainly never said or tried to dictate how anyone should play the game or said they should be forced to group with me.

I bet you are a solo lover too.

Way to twist my words around and fabricate them.

Oh and by the way, you've already accomplished that, you already are a troll.

Originally posted by AstralMystic

Originally posted by Kungaloosh1

I'll compare this argument to a scene from the classic movie "The big Lebowski", in which Walter brings Cynthia's prize winning Pomeranian the the alley.

The Dude "you brought the f**in' pomeranian bowling?"

Walter responds "what do you mean brought it bowling, dude? i didn't rent it shoes. i'm not buying it a f**ing beer. he's not taking your f**g turn, dude".

 

How does this relate? Simple. You and i are playing the same game, that is where the similarity ends. You aren't paying my subscription fee, and I yours. The game is the bowling alley and what i feel like doing should be up to me and i should not be forced to bowl with you.

The best games know how to blend multiple playstyles into their game. This maxmizes the fanbase attraction and helps to ensure a longer and healthier lifespan.

If i had the OP's mentality, i would post some thread out there that there should be no such thing as raiding in mmo's as it ruins balancing and turns a game into an unpaid parttime job. Instead, i let others enjoy that playstyle and play my own game, happy as a clam. If i did post that though, i would be a troll too.

 

 

I never said total removing of solo play, I never said games shouldn't be allowed to have certain kinds of solo play. And I most certainly never said or tried to dictate how anyone should play the game or said they should be forced to group with me.

I bet you are a solo lover too.

Way to twist my words around and fabricate them.

Oh and by the way, you've already accomplished that, you already are a troll.

Right, cuz everyone who disagrees with you is a troll.

Got it.