Originally posted by Abalis 

Frankly, I'm confused as to why it should matter.  Someone had to work their butts off in real life to earn that cash, too, and ultimately you're still paying for everything you "earn" in-game with real world cash.  That's the reality of playing a pay-to-play.

Never argued with SOE doing it to make money, either, but don't pretend it has no benefit for players and the only reason SOE did it was to make money.  It's disingenuous, because clearly the system does have benefits, which I outlined.  I also outlined that Live Gamer offers nothing more than what was already available before its existence.

I'm not here arguing about buying/selling, I've done it before, I have no problems with that.  What I do have problems with is when SOE pushes RMT onto its players.  Like I said, if Vanguard has enough players, they would be creating a card trading game much like Legends of Norrath,  and soon you'll start seeing items that you can only get from these RMT services.

Live gamer is only a start.  When players accept it and let it go on, then soon they'll push a bit further by creating exclusive items, illusions, and even instances (EQ1 just had its first exclusive LoN instance).   I guess I'm here telling you to not be so happy about Live gamer implementation, and they definitely didn't do it for the sake of player safety.  They did it to make a buck, and soon they'll move on to find ways to make more money out of you.

That's the main issues people have with RMT, it's because companies push further and further with it, and soon you are not only paying $15 a month anymore, you are spending a lot more just to get things you can't normally get ingame.  So be careful embracing Live gamer, don't let them fool you their intentions.

Originally posted by Mardy

Originally posted by Abalis 

Frankly, I'm confused as to why it should matter.  Someone had to work their butts off in real life to earn that cash, too, and ultimately you're still paying for everything you "earn" in-game with real world cash.  That's the reality of playing a pay-to-play.

Never argued with SOE doing it to make money, either, but don't pretend it has no benefit for players and the only reason SOE did it was to make money.  It's disingenuous, because clearly the system does have benefits, which I outlined.  I also outlined that Live Gamer offers nothing more than what was already available before its existence.

 

I'm not here arguing about buying/selling, I've done it before, I have no problems with that.  What I do have problems with is when SOE pushes RMT onto its players.  Like I said, if Vanguard has enough players, they would be creating a card trading game much like Legends of Norrath,  and soon you'll start seeing items that you can only get from these RMT services.

 

Live gamer is only a start.  When players accept it and let it go on, then soon they'll push a bit further by creating exclusive items, illusions, and even instances (EQ1 just had its first exclusive LoN instance).   I guess I'm here telling you to not be so happy about Live gamer implementation, and they definitely didn't do it for the sake of player safety.  They did it to make a buck, and soon they'll move on to find ways to make more money out of you.

 

That's the main issues people have with RMT, it's because companies push further and further with it, and soon you are not only paying $15 a month anymore, you are spending a lot more just to get things you can't normally get ingame.  So be careful embracing Live gamer, don't let them fool you their intentions.

Thanks for the concern (don't mean that sarcastically), but I know for me, I'll be just fine.  :p I played EQ2 with their card game gimmicks and extra content for a price.  I think it would be awesome if VG got to the point where it had such a population to warrant that treatment...which I know will probably sound very strange to you.

I know for me, the card game never bothered me.  Sometimes I'd find packs and I'd open them for useless junk, or I'd sell them ingame in EQ2.  Yeah, the mounts were kind of cool, and some of the items would have been useful, but in a PvE game it ultimately didn't matter to me.  Yeah, it would have been nice to have been "one of the lucky ones" getting a cool mount, but at least they had comparable mounts you could earn in-game.

I agree...if it ever gets to the point where you have to buy an item-mall item to advance (if an item mall is set up in VG--and I personally hope not), then I'll jump on the wagon and shoot it down.  But as things stand, as the current reality stands, Live Gamer is not an item mall and does not do the things you fear an item-mall would do.  Because it's not an item mall, just an extended item exchange service.

Originally posted by Mardy

Originally posted by Abalis 

So if you have a problem with a player purchasing "Uber Sword of Awesomeness" on Live Gamer, if you're following this same principle through, you'd have to have a problem with people buying said item on the in-game global exchange.  Because of course if you buy it (via LG or GE) you clearly haven't directly "earned" the item itself (nevermind that you earn in-game gold or real world cash for these reasons amongst others).

 

I think you missed the issues people have with Real Money Transaction.  If someone chooses to spend their time to farm for money ingame, and to buy an item on the market, they still spent the time ingame to do it.  That's a lot different than someone entering their credit card, and having the advantage over others through their bank accounts.  There's absolutely no comparison in the two and I don't know how you could even try to reason it out the way you did.

 

People have problems with real money transaction, and SOE is only doing this because they can make a buck out of it.  No need to make excuses, twist reasons, or to call it anything more than what it is.  They did it to make money, not because they care about you or some ingame principles.

You're making the assumption that "time played in game" is somehow a releavant figure that should determine how powerful or accomplished a person should be in an MMORPG, and for the most part, developers have catered to this design.

But there are those w/o lots of free time who also want to feel "special" in game, with either good gear, or ability to pawn or what have you, and they have the cash to purchase it. 

This is what drives the RMT market, whether offered legitimately in games like VG or EVE, or through gold sellers that viloate the EULA.

Look for it to become more popular in the future, not less, because face it, cash talks.

RMT is a slippery slope but so far none of the SoE games that have it are designed to force it on you.  You can play the games 100% without it and never feel any issue.  This is the key in my mind. 

Now there are many other games out there with RMT that are free and the games are designed to force you to use RMT.  This is where I draw the line, the best items in the game are for sale and in some cases can only be bought.  The game is designed so you can't get enough money to progress and forces you to buy money. etc

EQ2, Vanguard, and all pay games I know of are designed so you can play the game and make enough money to progress.  You can buy and sell items in game but the best items are only available from quests or doing dungeons and raids.  So you can buy money and buy some of the best crafted stuff or you can buy lots of supplies to level up your crafter.  This won't make you uber in the game because you can't buy the sword of uberness you gotta actually do the quest or get the item in a dungeon or raid.

To me this is the main point. When it affects my game play forcing me to buy stuff then I'll move on.  As long as I don't feel any need to even look at the exchange or feel it offers any real advantage I'm ok.

Originally posted by Daffid011

Originally posted by Sovrath 

 

It doesn't have to be an excuse. People disagreeing with you dont' automatically fall in the "they are deluding themselves" category.

Oh you might think so but not everyone is scandalized that a game company has introduced rmt. Especially when more and more of them are going to be doing it.

Heck, once again, when I spoke to Jeffrey Steefel at Pax (got a lot of intereting info from him) he indicated that rmt is a wave of the future for games and that more and more game companies would be using it.

DDO has it now to a certain extent, I think the new Star Wars will use it, Champions Online has some sort of rmt.

At some point you will have to either accept that a certain amount of it is going to be introduced into these games or you will have to stop playing. I have a feeling you will stop playing. That's fine.

But as I've mentioned before, cable television came out with the selling point of no commercials. Well, it has commercials. I could either stop watching it or just roll my eyes and focus on the content I am interested in.

 

True some people love it and it doesn't bother them.  I recognize people disagreeing with me, because they don't mind it and others who have to rationalize their support of the system or rather turning a blind eye.  I'm trying not to point fingers, but I think it is being read that way.  My appologies if that is how it sounded as I am intending to speak in broader terms. 

As for it being the wave of the future that remains to be seen.  I'm not to worried right now, because developers seem to be counting their chickens before the eggs have hatched so to speak.  So many are getting gold fever from the speculation of what they can make they have lost sight of what gets players in the first place. 

DDO has it, because ddo was a failure.  CO has it as a result of a new chief who also failed with the same mechanics in Hellgate.  Almost every soe game has it and well just look at the results.  Frankly I am not seeing a lot of threats from these companies, but eventually I think you are right and I will have to make a choice.  Right now I don't have to.  

 

 

 

 

 

Well, no reason to apologize, you stated your point, I just "sort of" disagree. Sorry my answer came off as a bit persnickety. ; )

I think it's important to note that I'm against it in games that don't condone it. In other words the second parties that supply it. For games that do use it, whether one likes it or not, it's not cheating. You can't cheat when it's allowed. And as I stated, for a pve game I don't really care. Pvp on the other hand and suddently it becomes a competition.

I really do think it's the wave of the future though. Not that it will run rampant, but with more games coming out that use, free realms is another one, more game companies will take notice. Regardless of whether DDO was a failure, it now has an RMT component for those who want it. If that works, and I know it does as another little tidbit that mr. steefel told me was that not only did they not lose many players because of it but it seemed that more players were using it than they anticipated.

This info makes other game companies take notice. And companies need to make money. Even if it is just to pay their employees and keep things moving and keep a good future for the company.

Originally posted by Abalis

Frankly, I'm confused as to why it should matter.  Someone had to work their butts off in real life to earn that cash, too, and ultimately you're still paying for everything you "earn" in-game with real world cash.  That's the reality of playing a pay-to-play.

Never argued with SOE doing it to make money, either, but don't pretend it has no benefit for players and the only reason SOE did it was to make money.  It's disingenuous, because clearly the system does have benefits, which I outlined.  I also outlined that Live Gamer offers nothing more than what was already available before its existence.

Because we as players don't want it, got it now?! Screw SOE and the evil money grabbers running it. That is EXACTLY why 11 million+ play World of Warcraft and 10k play Vantard. If I feel like it in WoW, and that player who BOUGHT his turd character is pissing me off (usually by buying raid quality equipment so he can save DKP and STEAL the gear I want) I can /report his butt and Blizzard will BAN him! I am sick of people BUYING gear and characters and won't hesitate to report them, AND YES THEIR BUYING AND SELLING HAS AFFECTED ME IN GAME PERSONNALLY!

RTM is only Detrimental (and an 'important' issue) to those of you who just "have to the the best" and feel llike you "have to earn that right".   The rest of us live in reality. We buy luxuries all the time, it's part of commerce and consumerism.

...and your arguements don't hold water when you make real world comparisons... I buy a BMW and it's unfair to you because you "worked your way up" to a Ford Explorer? I think not. ... though that is not really a "competion" example... how about, you are the Reds and I am the Yankees? That work for you?  .... you may not like it, but it is reality.

as for the post above mine.... yeah, right... I know of an entire Guild that paid for all their characters, they were reported and Nothing has been done in three years. It just doesn't pay to lose 100+ customers over one whiner. Economics rules out. And your 'not caring' about the 'evil corps' is soooo touching.... 'Mommy make him stop touching me there...'

Originally posted by Heltern

Originally posted by Abalis

Frankly, I'm confused as to why it should matter.  Someone had to work their butts off in real life to earn that cash, too, and ultimately you're still paying for everything you "earn" in-game with real world cash.  That's the reality of playing a pay-to-play.

Never argued with SOE doing it to make money, either, but don't pretend it has no benefit for players and the only reason SOE did it was to make money.  It's disingenuous, because clearly the system does have benefits, which I outlined.  I also outlined that Live Gamer offers nothing more than what was already available before its existence.

 

Because we as players don't want it, got it now?! Screw SOE and the evil money grabbers running it. That is EXACTLY why 11 million+ play World of Warcraft and 10k play Vantard. If I feel like it in WoW, and that player who BOUGHT his turd character is pissing me off (usually by buying raid quality equipment so he can save DKP and STEAL the gear I want) I can /report his butt and Blizzard will BAN him! I am sick of people BUYING gear and characters and won't hesitate to report them, AND YES THEIR BUYING AND SELLING HAS AFFECTED ME IN GAME PERSONNALLY!

Heltern I do not see how this effects you, becuase judging by your posts I doubt you have played the game since RMT was introduced.  You should stick to the I hate SOE thread.

I will explain EXACTLY how it affects me:

A guy buys a character equiped with some raid gear from zones our guild is raiding. I have to pay DKP for the same gear he paid $$ for. Then when gear drops we BOTH lack, he spends the DKP he saved by paying $$ for the other gear and I have none or few DKP left. I then happily report him, he gets banned, the tool selling his account gets banned, and I get the item I EARNED and didn't BUY with RL$$.

SOE's evil greed  hit this game early and hard, at least half the people that potentially would have played this game didn't when SOE published it.

Originally posted by Heltern

Because we as players don't want it, got it now?! Screw SOE and the evil money grabbers running it. That is EXACTLY why 11 million+ play World of Warcraft and 10k play Vantard. If I feel like it in WoW, and that player who BOUGHT his turd character is pissing me off (usually by buying raid quality equipment so he can save DKP and STEAL the gear I want) I can /report his butt and Blizzard will BAN him! I am sick of people BUYING gear and characters and won't hesitate to report them, AND YES THEIR BUYING AND SELLING HAS AFFECTED ME IN GAME PERSONNALLY!

This is one of the many reasons why the Gold Selling Business shouldn't made legal by the company who developes the game.
I really cannot understand why MMO developers cannot understand why the majority of players hate RMT.
They should know better than anyone their own audiance.

Of course you will never be able to get rid of Gold Sellers or Buyers, but by making it integral part of the game, it defeat the reason of playing an RPG in the first place.
The point of an RPG is to build your character from rags to riches................if you are already rich and can buy whatever you want, where is the fun?

People who buy Gold from farmers should play Multiplayers games, where every character is already maxed and has already the best equipment, so only your skill will make the difference.................it will also save you lots of money.
Think about it.................

was just a matter of time honestly, once i saw SoE going for subs and cash shops i unsubbed all soe games.vanguard was my favorite of SoEs pc games had alot of great things going for it. now i'm not some butthurt SWG "vet" or really an SoE hater but i do hate where they've taking their games lately.

Originally posted by ste2000

Originally posted by Heltern

Because we as players don't want it, got it now?! Screw SOE and the evil money grabbers running it. That is EXACTLY why 11 million+ play World of Warcraft and 10k play Vantard. If I feel like it in WoW, and that player who BOUGHT his turd character is pissing me off (usually by buying raid quality equipment so he can save DKP and STEAL the gear I want) I can /report his butt and Blizzard will BAN him! I am sick of people BUYING gear and characters and won't hesitate to report them, AND YES THEIR BUYING AND SELLING HAS AFFECTED ME IN GAME PERSONNALLY!

 

This is one of the many reasons why the Gold Selling Business shouldn't made legal by the company who developes the game.
I really cannot understand why MMO developers cannot understand why the majority of players hate RMT.
They should know better than anyone their own audiance.

Of course you will never be able to get rid of Gold Sellers or Buyers, but by making it integral part of the game, it defeat the reason of playing an RPG in the first place.
The point of an RPG is to build your character from rags to riches................if you are already rich and can buy whatever you want, where is the fun?

People who buy Gold from farmers should play Multiplayers games, where every character is already maxed and has already the best equipment, so only your skill will make the difference.................it will also save you lots of money.
Think about it.................

You obviously never play many asian market games..... 5 billion people can't be wrong... lol

Cash Shops are the way of the future of MMO... there is too much money in it for it not to be... The Japenese and American developers are just starting to see the Korean/Chinese game market strategies and how they have paid very very very well. Get used to it.

 They DO NOT make games for any purpose OTHER than to make $$$, they are a business.

Originally posted by Sovrath 

Well, no reason to apologize, you stated your point, I just "sort of" disagree. Sorry my answer came off as a bit persnickety. ; )

I think it's important to note that I'm against it in games that don't condone it. In other words the second parties that supply it. For games that do use it, whether one likes it or not, it's not cheating. You can't cheat when it's allowed. And as I stated, for a pve game I don't really care. Pvp on the other hand and suddently it becomes a competition.

I really do think it's the wave of the future though. Not that it will run rampant, but with more games coming out that use, free realms is another one, more game companies will take notice. Regardless of whether DDO was a failure, it now has an RMT component for those who want it. If that works, and I know it does as another little tidbit that mr. steefel told me was that not only did they not lose many players because of it but it seemed that more players were using it than they anticipated.

This info makes other game companies take notice. And companies need to make money. Even if it is just to pay their employees and keep things moving and keep a good future for the company.

I'm not sure I addressed the issue of rmt being cheating or not.  It does give a leg up to certain people who for example can buy better gear which will give them a better chance at getting into a guild of their choice, and it is a competition in that regard.

What I believe is that rmt changes the nature of how some players play the game and how companies go through the design process. 

When a monetary value is put on gameplay items and a company gives its blessing it will encourage more people to treat the game like a job rather than a game.  Keep in mind these are the same people everyone is going to be playing with and building their community around.

Also it taints the process developers go through while designing the game.  There is now a financial reward if they push players into using a cash shop, a player to player RMT service, loot card or any of the other brain storms by recent developers (soe mainly). 

Do they release free engaging content to players to entice them to stay subscribed longer or do they withhold content for a fee?  Maybe adjust down rewards in game so the cash shop looks a little more compelling. 

I do agree with you that RMT is coming.  I don't think game developers have gotten it yet, because they are blinded by the cash they think they will make and have lost focus on the more important aspect of making a game worth spending extra money on.  I'm curious to see where it goes, but if it keeps failing like it has so far developers might give up on it entierly just to remain competitive to other games on the market that do not gouge players for content. 

Originally posted by Heltern

Originally posted by Abalis

Frankly, I'm confused as to why it should matter.  Someone had to work their butts off in real life to earn that cash, too, and ultimately you're still paying for everything you "earn" in-game with real world cash.  That's the reality of playing a pay-to-play.

Never argued with SOE doing it to make money, either, but don't pretend it has no benefit for players and the only reason SOE did it was to make money.  It's disingenuous, because clearly the system does have benefits, which I outlined.  I also outlined that Live Gamer offers nothing more than what was already available before its existence.

 

Because we as players don't want it, got it now?! Screw SOE and the evil money grabbers running it. That is EXACTLY why 11 million+ play World of Warcraft and 10k play Vantard. If I feel like it in WoW, and that player who BOUGHT his turd character is pissing me off (usually by buying raid quality equipment so he can save DKP and STEAL the gear I want) I can /report his butt and Blizzard will BAN him! I am sick of people BUYING gear and characters and won't hesitate to report them, AND YES THEIR BUYING AND SELLING HAS AFFECTED ME IN GAME PERSONNALLY!

Lol, apparently there are enough players wanting it to justify it being in the game and having activity.  Your post is so full of fallacious arguments I'm not sure where to begin...probably shouldn't even bother, but I've not much to do atm, so why not?

The reasons behind there being such an unusual (and it is unusual amongst mmo's) discrepancy between sub numbers in WoW and those of any other game are varied, and have nothing to do with SOE and their use of Live Gamer (or any other game and its use of item malls/cash shops and other rmt systems.  WoW hit a sweet spot with their marketing and their game was able to be played with ridiculously low-end rigs, coupled with the name "Blizzard," and the lack of any other comparable competition.  They hit a gold mine and had so many breaks and good business decisions, that they are still ridiculously popular to this day.

Regardless of Vanguard or any other mmo out there.

In VG, which is what this thread is referring to, and thus VG's Live Gamer system, your DKP QQ'ing is pointless.  Two completely different games with different systems in the first place, and if you understood anything significant about VG, you would not have posted what you had.  In Vanguard, YOU CANNOT BUY/SELL GEAR ON LIVE GAMER THAT YOU WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO BUY/SELL ON THE IN-GAME BROKER.  You'll notice how I cap'sed and colored the text to draw your, and others', attention? There's a reason for that.

People need to stop dragging in their issues with other games into this, because the issues faced in other games cannot be applied to this game, just as the issues in this game cannot be applied to others.  There are different variables affecting different games.  DKP and its related issues is a non-issue in relation to VG because the loot system is not like that.  Sorry you've been burned by WoW, but you're in the wrong forum for crying about it.

Originally posted by Daffid011

Originally posted by Sovrath 

Well, no reason to apologize, you stated your point, I just "sort of" disagree. Sorry my answer came off as a bit persnickety. ; )

I think it's important to note that I'm against it in games that don't condone it. In other words the second parties that supply it. For games that do use it, whether one likes it or not, it's not cheating. You can't cheat when it's allowed. And as I stated, for a pve game I don't really care. Pvp on the other hand and suddently it becomes a competition.

I really do think it's the wave of the future though. Not that it will run rampant, but with more games coming out that use, free realms is another one, more game companies will take notice. Regardless of whether DDO was a failure, it now has an RMT component for those who want it. If that works, and I know it does as another little tidbit that mr. steefel told me was that not only did they not lose many players because of it but it seemed that more players were using it than they anticipated.

This info makes other game companies take notice. And companies need to make money. Even if it is just to pay their employees and keep things moving and keep a good future for the company.

I'm not sure I addressed the issue of rmt being cheating or not.  It does give a leg up to certain people who for example can buy better gear which will give them a better chance at getting into a guild of their choice, and it is a competition in that regard.

Any good guild is going to do what it can to gear up its members. If the guild will not help you then I don't really think it's a good guild. To add to that, there is a difference between joining a guild and expecting to be geared up, even though you have not contributed, and you joining, contributing to the guild and also receiving benefits.  I don't buy the "this guild is so awesome I just have to be in it" stuff. Sounds like high school where someone so desperately wants to belong so they do things that they dont' want to do. I think we are all a bit better than this.

 

What I believe is that rmt changes the nature of how some players play the game and how companies go through the design process. 

This is very true and I couldn't disagree. Especially if the company wants to create a game that appeals to both types of players. DDO has added rmt. I also don't think that players using it are cheating.

When a monetary value is put on gameplay items and a company gives its blessing it will encourage more people to treat the game like a job rather than a game.  I don't agree with this at all. You might think this but I would like to hear from players who have bought items in vangaurd or any game where the game company offers the purchhase of items, whether or not they think it's a job. I think you just don't like it and are then assuming that others will act the way you think they will act. Keep in mind these are the same people everyone is going to be playing with and building their community around.

Also it taints the process developers go through while designing the game.  There is now a financial reward if they push players into using a cash shop, a player to player RMT service, loot card or any of the other brain storms by recent developers (soe mainly). 

There is a financial reward for players to continually play their game. If a player feels like he is not getting his money's worth then he/she will leave, regardless of dev sanctioned rmt. It's not worth it to companies to drive away their player base. I'm not saying that they won't drive away their playerbase but it's a calculated risk. Turbine made this decision and were surprised as to how many players use it. My thought is that there is a vocal group who hates all rmt and then the people who are just using it. If the company lost all it's players because of adding rmt they would most likely change that decision. Yet it is being used and will be used in future games.

Reality doesn't revolve around what we want it to be. Just because a player threatens to leave because of added rmt they shouldn't believe that everyone is going to leave. Again, case in point, ddo, Turbine retained most of their players and their use of rmt is now making them money. Last time I checked all companies need to make money. I don't think there is anyone out there who is working for a for profit company that doesn't care if it makes money.

Do they release free engaging content to players to entice them to stay subscribed longer or do they withhold content for a fee?  Maybe adjust down rewards in game so the cash shop looks a little more compelling. 

I don't know let's hear from some devs and see what they think about this. But more and more games are using it. So it seems to me that it is a business model they can't ignore. Especially since so many players are using it. I mean, we see players angrily stating that rmt is bad and yet it's all over the place. So SOMEONE must be buying. I would think that any game company would be stupid to sit back and just allow some 2nd party make money off of their product. If everyone hated rmt then it wouldn't exist. But it does exist. So my sense is that someone is not telling the truth and that many people are using it.

 

I do agree with you that RMT is coming.  I don't think game developers have gotten it yet, because they are blinded by the cash they think they will make and have lost focus on the more important aspect of making a game worth spending extra money on.  I'm curious to see where it goes, but if it keeps failing like it has so far developers might give up on it entierly just to remain competitive to other games on the market that do not gouge players for content. 

 If rmt is added so that the game can't be played without paying gobs of extra cash then that is a bad design decision for many players, especially if these players signed on before the addtioin of the rmt sercices. If adding things like cosmetic items, or extra storage space or some speed buff pots or whatever these things offer is done then I don't see the real issue. Regardless, Vanguard had this station exchange thing added. If the difference in keeping the game alive is that players can buy someone's character when they don't want it anymore then I personally don't care.

 

Game companies are companies. They aren't religions. Last I checked pro-sports was also a busines as well as the movie business and music business. Yet we still watch/listen to this content, even though these companies sometimes seem to whore out their wares. I mean, how many of us will stop listening to a band if they sell the rights to their songs to be used om a dish soap commericial? Some perhaps but I think most of us would roll our eyes or say something like "awe, what a shame" and that would be that.

People want to be compensated for their work and they don't want others being compensated off of their work. heck, I'm a composer and if someone were to use my work without paying me for it in a way that I didn't like I would be after them so fast it wouldn't be funny.

It's the creator's decision how htey want to make money off of their efforts. It's the player's decision whether or not they are going to give that company their money.

If players don't like it then send a message and don't buy/play their products. However, I think that the majority are going to tell you they don't care as long as someone can't buy top everything with the swipe of the credit card.

Except of course if someone wants to do that. If some dev said "hey, we are going to cater to rich people and allow for a variety of things to be purchased in our games" then I don't see what the big deal is. You and I might not be playing but there might be a whole lot of rich people who say "ah, finally a game for us rich slobs".

Not every game has to cater to every demographic.

Originally posted by lliberty

Originally posted by ste2000

Originally posted by Heltern

Because we as players don't want it, got it now?! Screw SOE and the evil money grabbers running it. That is EXACTLY why 11 million+ play World of Warcraft and 10k play Vantard. If I feel like it in WoW, and that player who BOUGHT his turd character is pissing me off (usually by buying raid quality equipment so he can save DKP and STEAL the gear I want) I can /report his butt and Blizzard will BAN him! I am sick of people BUYING gear and characters and won't hesitate to report them, AND YES THEIR BUYING AND SELLING HAS AFFECTED ME IN GAME PERSONNALLY!

 

This is one of the many reasons why the Gold Selling Business shouldn't made legal by the company who developes the game.
I really cannot understand why MMO developers cannot understand why the majority of players hate RMT.
They should know better than anyone their own audiance.

Of course you will never be able to get rid of Gold Sellers or Buyers, but by making it integral part of the game, it defeat the reason of playing an RPG in the first place.
The point of an RPG is to build your character from rags to riches................if you are already rich and can buy whatever you want, where is the fun?

People who buy Gold from farmers should play Multiplayers games, where every character is already maxed and has already the best equipment, so only your skill will make the difference.................it will also save you lots of money.
Think about it.................

 

You obviously never play many asian market games..... 5 billion people can't be wrong... lol

Cash Shops are the way of the future of MMO... there is too much money in it for it not to be... The Japenese and American developers are just starting to see the Korean/Chinese game market strategies and how they have paid very very very well. Get used to it.

 They DO NOT make games for any purpose OTHER than to make $$$, they are a business.

 

You look quite naive mate.
You believe too much what the so called "experts" say without analysing it further.

Asians are different from Western people.
We do like different food, different music, different movies and different games..................Just because they like something, that doesn't mean we are going to like it too.

No one is saying that RMT doesn't work in Asia.................
But how many millions subs any of those Korean crap has in the western market?
Not anywhere near the numbers they have in Asia.

Another question.
How many millions more customers SOE games aquired since they introduced RMT?

And another.
Why NCSoft a Korean developer decided to drop the RMT for the western version of Aion?

RMT have been around for years in the western market my friend.
Asian F2P MMO have been around for ages (in case you haven't noticed it), and they never been particularly successfull.........Archlord, RF Online just to mention the most famous casualties

This RMT issue is not new at all in the western market, I am surprised that now some developers are making a bit fuss about that, in particular because there is not a single RMT based game which has been a blockbuster in the western part of the world yet.

Originally posted by lliberty  

... how about, you are the Reds and I am the Yankees? That work for you?  .... you may not like it, but it is reality.

 

Yeah, that's why MLB sucks. (well, that and baseball is boring) Salary caps and profit sharing were the two best things to ever happen to the NFL. Jerry Jones might not like it, but it keeps the entire league healthy and competitive.

Beyond the $15/mo that everybody pays, real world wealth shouldn't grant you a competitive advantage,

Originally posted by Sovrath 

If players don't like it then send a message and don't buy/play their products. However, I think that the majority are going to tell you they don't care as long as someone can't buy top everything with the swipe of the credit card.

So far I don't see a majority doing anything like that.  I have not seen any soe game swell their ranks by adding rmt in any of the various flavors they are trying.  From the looks of things they are losing players, but like you said it is their company.

There seems to be a major disconnect between us on several points.  One being my dislike of rmt, which is true, but at the same time I can look at it objectively and come to conclusions that are not based on my personal opinion of the practice.

Second is the various different types of RMT.  Comparing the RMT in vanguard to DDO is not a very good comparison.  When I talk about RMT changing how PLAYERS play the game I am referencing player to player rmt.  That effectively makes every player a potential gold seller and lets not pretend it would not have that effect on some portion of the playerbase.  Maybe not to a large degree in VG, but that is a result of nothing being large in VG, because the playerbase has been reduced to a very small dedicated fanbase. Put this practice in a game with any decent cross section of players and I think the results will be different.

Company sponsored microtransactions through cash shops, loot cards and things of that nature have an affect of the games design process.  Without getting to long winded, every design now must go through the process of which will make more money, giving players objectives or selling them the rewards.  It is a concept that competes with itself and usually ends up with the company being "forced" to sell power items, because fluff and minor items only appeal for so long.  I don't think it has long term stability. 

Honestly I think we are somewhat close to agreement on things, but not for the same reasons and much of that is getting clouded with mixing comparisons and confusing desire for discussion.

Originally posted by Daffid011

Originally posted by Sovrath 

If players don't like it then send a message and don't buy/play their products. However, I think that the majority are going to tell you they don't care as long as someone can't buy top everything with the swipe of the credit card.

 

So far I don't see a majority doing anything like that.  I have not seen any soe game swell their ranks by adding rmt in any of the various flavors they are trying.  From the looks of things they are losing players, but like you said it is their company.

 

There seems to be a major disconnect between us on several points.  One being my dislike of rmt, which is true, but at the same time I can look at it objectively and come to conclusions that are not based on my personal opinion of the practice.

Second is the various different types of RMT.  Comparing the RMT in vanguard to DDO is not a very good comparison.  When I talk about RMT changing how PLAYERS play the game I am referencing player to player rmt.  That effectively makes every player a potential gold seller and lets not pretend it would not have that effect on some portion of the playerbase.  Maybe not to a large degree in VG, but that is a result of nothing being large in VG, because the playerbase has been reduced to a very small dedicated fanbase. Put this practice in a game with any decent cross section of players and I think the results will be different.

Company sponsored microtransactions through cash shops, loot cards and things of that nature have an affect of the games design process.  Without getting to long winded, every design now must go through the process of which will make more money, giving players objectives or selling them the rewards.  It is a concept that competes with itself and usually ends up with the company being "forced" to sell power items, because fluff and minor items only appeal for so long.  I don't think it has long term stability. 

 

Honestly I think we are somewhat close to agreement on things, but not for the same reasons and much of that is getting clouded with mixing comparisons and confusing desire for discussion.

 

 

Well, we probably are close to agreement, but here are some other things.

As far as SOE swelling the ranks of their games with RMT, I really don't believe any game can do that. If a game has issues then addign RMT of any sort is not going to save that game. People spending real money, extra money to buy things in a game that they don't like will never really work. So sure, I can agree with that.

As far as the design process changing in order for players to spend money I also agree.

They have to make money and it would not make any sense to have a game where everything was easy to get and "oh by the way you can spend extra money to get these easy to get items". Wouldn't work at all.

So sure there are going to be enough hardships where spending 5 dollars here or there will get the player through a bad spot.

As far as comparing rmt in ddo and vangaurd, well sure, they are both different. But in the end the players are spending money to mitigate some sort of issue.

And believe me, I looked at DDO's rmt shop. I could easily see myself, if I were inclined to do this, spending far more than a regular 15 dollar sub for a regular game. It's just too easy to do. With Vanguard is seems that you can buy some gold and you can buy characters. But in both situations the similarity is that they are pve games and one will essentialy never feel a huge impact from players purchasing items.

However, part of this could be because of the games themselves, as you pointed out, Vanguard is huge. The playerbase is small but dedicated.

And if in a successful game, every player could sell to any other player then I get the feeling that prices would be driven down. If it was just that easy. But to be honest I'm not really for that type of rmt. I've always leaned more toward purchasing cosmetic items or housing or storage or some such thing.

Also, one could make an argument that purchsing gold in Vanguard would drive prices up. However, at least to my level 36, I have always been able to buy decent equipment at a decent price.

Bring that back to wow, where there is no sanctioned rmt but where there is rmt, and I look on the AH and am shocked at how much is being charged for low lvl equipment. I wanted to buy a better sword for a lvl 10 paladin and lo and behold it was so many gold that by the time I gathered the gold I would be beyond the level needed to use it.