It is only the result of Ignorance. A massive multi player online role playing game.

This genre is like the seed of a great tree and the poison that does not allow It to grow is solo game design.

A gamer should be allowed to play the game and have experiences without grouping but the core component that is needed for this genre to grow is community and grouping.

Player interactivity, grouping and community is as important to keeping this genre alive as food is to our bodies.

Without It, It becomes a dead life form.

While many will disagree with you, I don't.

So many MMORPGs coming out today promote soloing. Leveling up by going from one quest giver to another does not make an MMO. I 

play MMORPGs to socialize and to group, and that is not happening if all you need to do to level is talk to an NPC and collect 10 hides. Everquest promoted grouping with difficulty and a certain lack of a linear quest line, and in my opinion was the greatest MMORPG to come out. It really isn't that difficult. Increase difficulty and stop giving easy, linear quest lines. Give us grouping options for cheese sake.

MMO does NOT mean group...period. It means a lot of people doing what you would do in a persistant world. Which is whatever the hell you want.

get over yourselves.

I'll second that.

I enjoy the grouping, socialization with other players while we go about travelling a games story all in one, not just one or the other aspect. Theres plenty of games out there if your just into soloing or want strictly grouping/

Although, myself. Gathering together 6 or more players, planning strategies and heading into an actual mob/boss fight or dungeon that will take more than 3 hits of a spear or sword to finish off, is more entertaining then logging into a game where you spend short times or hours during a grind mood running back and forth collecting those hides.

But there is so many games these days that become less of an MMO in any form. and gradually degrade into a visual version of yahoo chat, or a lame dating platform.

While not everything within a MMORPG has to be group based, I agree with the majority of it being geared towards it. It promotes community and the interaction MMORPG's were based on.

I feel MMORPG's that promote more solo play than group play shouldn't even be considered in the genre. They are more like console single player  RPG's than MMORPG's.

Its supply and demand. There are more solo players than group centric players. So to attract the most subs, the games are made to appeal to solo players with group material as something that can be done but doesnt have to be to make progress.  It affects PVP as well. Battleground type scenarios are an example of PVP one can do without a group. Sure your in a group for the battle but the grouping process is done for you and  chat is nearly nonexistent. After the battle, people go their own way once again.

Originally posted by jayfly95

I'll second that.

I enjoy the grouping, socialization with other players while we go about travelling a games story all in one, not just one or the other aspect. Theres plenty of games out there if your just into soloing or want strictly grouping/

Although, myself. Gathering together 6 or more players, planning strategies and heading into an actual mob/boss fight or dungeon that will take more than 3 hits of a spear or sword to finish off, is more entertaining then logging into a game where you spend short times or hours during a grind mood running back and forth collecting those hides.

But there is so many games these days that become less of an MMO in any form. and gradually degrade into a visual version of yahoo chat, or a lame dating platform.

 

Right on. The most fun I have in MMOs is when I get into a party (as long as it's a decent party, which most are) and work through group oriented content. Games where I can pretty much do everything on my own get really boring for me.

Having a mix is fine. But it's getting to where is seems some people want everything to be soloable. The day of solo raids may not be that far away.

Tree analogy?

WOW's soloing was part of the many nutrients that caused it to grow into the biggest tree ever.  Sure you don't need those nutrients for every tree, but they were damn successful in at least one -- and there are some very concrete game design reasons why.

What's wrong with games that promote soloing?  There are plenty of games that do not.

An MMO should not be all group or all solo. There should be a good amount of both options. The more options will increase your subs. With more subs you get more chances to meet new players and group more often.

With more options available, you should never have to worry about how other players choose to spend their time in game. Solo players will do their own thing and group players will do theirs. Requireing either player to do what they don't want to do is a bad idea. Having options for both to have fun in the same MMO is always a better idea.

I agree that playing a MMO and never wanting to interact with another player goes against the concept of MMO. That doesn't mean it is not an MMO because there is solo content in the game. Interaction can be simply using the AH to post and buy items. Just because some players want to spend their time and money on an MMO and play it like a SPG doesn't make them or the devs designing content for them "poison". Every player paying money to play the game should have something fun designed for them to do. This in no way means that games should not continue to design content for group play. Group content in the form of instances or raids should be the main focus. Just not the only focus IMHO.

Originally posted by artemisentr4

I agree that playing a MMO and never wanting to interact with another player goes against the concept of MMO. That doesn't mean it is not an MMO because there is solo content in the game. Interaction can be simply using the AH to post and buy items. Just because some players want to spend their time and money on an MMO and play it like a SPG doesn't make them or the devs designing content for them "poison". Every player paying money to play the game should have something fun designed for them to do. This in no way means that games should not continue to design content for group play. Group content in the form of instances or raids should be the main focus. Just not the only focus IMHO.

So If a bunch of new people who want to play hockey but don't like sticks ,goalies and ice skates, does that mean the developers should remove sticks, goalies and ice skates and everyone should carry the puck in their hand like a football? Because more people want to play It that way so It will generate more money, even though It is totally against the core of what makes ''Hockey'' Hockey.

your mom use to have to force people to play with you when u were a kid, right?

Did she tie a porkchop around your neck so the dog would play with you?

Me?  I can find friends to group with if I'm in the mood.

And when I'm not, I can solo.

The idea that grouping is required for it to be an MMO is ridiculously stupid.

Originally posted by madeux

your mom use to have to force people to play with you when u were a kid, right?

Did she tie a porkchop around your neck so the dog would play with you?

Me?  I can find friends to group with if I'm in the mood.

And when I'm not, I can solo.

The idea that grouping is required for it to be an MMO is ridiculously stupid.

Thanks for the laugh

Originally posted by Axehilt

Tree analogy?

WOW's soloing was part of the many nutrients that caused it to grow into the biggest tree ever.  Sure you don't need those nutrients for every tree, but they were damn successful in at least one -- and there are some very concrete game design reasons why.

In regards to World of Warcraft, all I have to say is : ''A blind man guides a blind man and both will fall into a pit''

Not saying World of Warcraft is a bad game, It does a lot of things right, but using Its core game design, fundamentals and core components to lead this genre into the future, well read my above quote to get my thoughts on that.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be times when you can do things alone. On the contrary players need some alone time in game but It should not engulf the whole core fundamentals of the MMORPG.

And to those who are saying newer games that have slightly borrowed ideas from WoW and offer solo and group play and they both function fine ; have you guys actually played these games? Because I have and believe me, a rotting pile of shit covered in flies has more player interactivity, congruency and grouping going on then It does in those games.

I sympathize with the OP. The in-game communities need to be revived. The only solution I can think of is to get developers and Game Masters more involved in the day to day activities of the communities with in-game events, questing, PvP tactics, etc. If you can convince the players to build a community instead of compete against it, I think the games would be much richer.

Originally posted by AstralMystic

Originally posted by artemisentr4

I agree that playing a MMO and never wanting to interact with another player goes against the concept of MMO. That doesn't mean it is not an MMO because there is solo content in the game. Interaction can be simply using the AH to post and buy items. Just because some players want to spend their time and money on an MMO and play it like a SPG doesn't make them or the devs designing content for them "poison". Every player paying money to play the game should have something fun designed for them to do. This in no way means that games should not continue to design content for group play. Group content in the form of instances or raids should be the main focus. Just not the only focus IMHO.

 

So If a bunch of new people who want to play hockey but don't like sticks ,goalies and ice skates, does that mean the developers should remove sticks, goalies and ice skates and everyone should carry the puck in their hand like a football? Because more people want to play It that way so It will generate more money, even though It is totally against the core of what makes ''Hockey'' Hockey.

I don't think you understood what I said. In your example of hockey. The devs would be looking to make money from these new people. If there is a bunch of new people looking to give there money away for a different option, the devs will look for a way to take their money. With the hockey theme, the devs would leave the hockey game the same for those already playing. They would add a different league that plays without hockey sticks with a few new rules. These new players could play that all they want. It wouldn't effect the current hockey players at all. Their game would not change. The new players playing without sticks may decide that the sticks look like a good idea and will then move over to the game of hockey and give it a try.

Just becasue there is content for some doesn't mean everyone has to use it. Each can play the way they want without causing problems with the other group of players. No reason to have only one way of playing. More is allways better.

Originally posted by artemisentr4

Originally posted by AstralMystic

Originally posted by artemisentr4

I agree that playing a MMO and never wanting to interact with another player goes against the concept of MMO. That doesn't mean it is not an MMO because there is solo content in the game. Interaction can be simply using the AH to post and buy items. Just because some players want to spend their time and money on an MMO and play it like a SPG doesn't make them or the devs designing content for them "poison". Every player paying money to play the game should have something fun designed for them to do. This in no way means that games should not continue to design content for group play. Group content in the form of instances or raids should be the main focus. Just not the only focus IMHO.

 

So If a bunch of new people who want to play hockey but don't like sticks ,goalies and ice skates, does that mean the developers should remove sticks, goalies and ice skates and everyone should carry the puck in their hand like a football? Because more people want to play It that way so It will generate more money, even though It is totally against the core of what makes ''Hockey'' Hockey.

 

I don't think you understood what I said. In your example of hockey. The devs would be looking to make money from these new people. If there is a bunch of new people looking to give there money away for a different option, the devs will look for a way to take their money. With the hockey theme, the devs would leave the hockey game the same for those already playing. They would add a different league that plays without hockey sticks with a few new rules. These new players could play that all they want. It wouldn't effect the current hockey players at all. Their game would not change. The new players playing without sticks may decide that the sticks look like a good idea and will then move over to the game of hockey and give it a try.

Just becasue there is content for some doesn't mean everyone has to use it. Each can play the way they want without causing problems with the other group of players. No reason to have only one way of playing. More is allways better.

Than these SPG style games should be considered in a different league going by your opinion and not be under the same genre as ""MMORPG""

Originally posted by artemisentr4

Originally posted by AstralMystic

Originally posted by artemisentr4

I agree that playing a MMO and never wanting to interact with another player goes against the concept of MMO. That doesn't mean it is not an MMO because there is solo content in the game. Interaction can be simply using the AH to post and buy items. Just because some players want to spend their time and money on an MMO and play it like a SPG doesn't make them or the devs designing content for them "poison". Every player paying money to play the game should have something fun designed for them to do. This in no way means that games should not continue to design content for group play. Group content in the form of instances or raids should be the main focus. Just not the only focus IMHO.

 

So If a bunch of new people who want to play hockey but don't like sticks ,goalies and ice skates, does that mean the developers should remove sticks, goalies and ice skates and everyone should carry the puck in their hand like a football? Because more people want to play It that way so It will generate more money, even though It is totally against the core of what makes ''Hockey'' Hockey.

 

I don't think you understood what I said. In your example of hockey. The devs would be looking to make money from these new people. If there is a bunch of new people looking to give there money away for a different option, the devs will look for a way to take their money. With the hockey theme, the devs would leave the hockey game the same for those already playing. They would add a different league that plays without hockey sticks with a few new rules. These new players could play that all they want. It wouldn't effect the current hockey players at all. Their game would not change. The new players playing without sticks may decide that the sticks look like a good idea and will then move over to the game of hockey and give it a try.

Just becasue there is content for some doesn't mean everyone has to use it. Each can play the way they want without causing problems with the other group of players. No reason to have only one way of playing. More is allways better.

Basket ball makes a better analogy... you can have a giant gym full of basketball courts.... on some courts, people will choose to group up and play serious games... other courts people will group up for more casual games, less competition... others some will choose to shoot hoops alone... others will have p eople play hourse... others will have people doing a slam dunk contest...  All using the same courts, same gym, same balls, still doing it all together, but doing it their own way in the way that will bring them each the most enjoyment.  What's so wrong with that?

Originally posted by AstralMystic

It is only the result of Ignorance. A massive multi player online role playing game.

This genre is like the seed of a great tree and the poison that does not allow It to grow is solo game design.

A gamer should be allowed to play the game and have experiences without grouping but the core component that is needed for this genre to grow is community and grouping.

Player interactivity, grouping and community is as important to keeping this genre alive as food is to our bodies.

Without It, It becomes a dead life form.

oh god not this again.

There is more to life than hanging out with people ALL of the time. Do you mean to tell me that every aspect of your life must be in a group setting? You never enjoy alone time? Read a book? Good glass of wine, laying back and just relaxing?

If an mmo is supposed to be a "world" then I'm fairly confident that the people who make up that world are all different and require different levels of social interaction. the multi-player refers to numerous people in that world all playing at the same time. What they choose to do with their time depends on who they are.

Some will group all the time, some will spend a lot of time crafting, some will go out in the world and explore on their own.

it is very clear, given the numours types of people out there, that there will be numerous ways of playing these games.

i understand people wanting to group but one of the reasons i want solo-friendly game is because too many a**holes to deal with in game to group with.  i dont want to group with punks that think they are internet bada**es.  if communities were more friendly i would be all for more group content but they arent.  and i know you will ask then why dont you play just solo game instead of mmos, well because mmos fell much more alive.  the world seems much more alive. 

I enjoy grouping up in MMO's. FFXI was my first game to play online and i think that grouping is what made the Community in that game so great, therefore making the game more enjoyable. Although now I have a family and don't have time to play as much as I used to and definetley don't have time for waiting for groups. Now I appreciate solo play, because it still gives me a chance to do something I love, which is play in a persistant world and get to know new people. So while I agree solo play isn't as exciting as group based play, I don't think that Grouping is what MMORPG's are all about. I believe it is just a big multi-player  game that allows you to have fun with others in an evergrowing world, grouping or not.

Originally posted by AstralMystic

It is only the result of Ignorance. A massive multi player online role playing game.

This genre is like the seed of a great tree and the poison that does not allow It to grow is solo game design.

A gamer should be allowed to play the game and have experiences without grouping but the core component that is needed for this genre to grow is community and grouping.

Player interactivity, grouping and community is as important to keeping this genre alive as food is to our bodies.

Without It, It becomes a dead life form.

Amen! forcing people to group even though it is tedious and irritating to some of them and they'd much prefer to face challenges on their own without dealing with a bunch of PUGS and ninja looters is important. Otherwise, if we let people enjoy the game the way they want too it will lead to mmos being a dead life form.

Wait.....this IS opposite day, right?

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by AstralMystic

It is only the result of Ignorance. A massive multi player online role playing game.

This genre is like the seed of a great tree and the poison that does not allow It to grow is solo game design.

A gamer should be allowed to play the game and have experiences without grouping but the core component that is needed for this genre to grow is community and grouping.

Player interactivity, grouping and community is as important to keeping this genre alive as food is to our bodies.

Without It, It becomes a dead life form.

 

oh god not this again.

There is more to life than hanging out with people ALL of the time. Do you mean to tell me that every aspect of your life must be in a group setting? You never enjoy alone time? Read a book? Good glass of wine, laying back and just relaxing?

If an mmo is supposed to be a "world" then I'm fairly confident that the people who make up that world are all different and require different levels of social interaction. the multi-player refers to numerous people in that world all playing at the same time. What they choose to do with their time depends on who they are.

Some will group all the time, some will spend a lot of time crafting, some will go out in the world and explore on their own.

it is very clear, given the numours types of people out there, that there will be numerous ways of playing these games.

Look at what I highlighted in my original post you quoted above.

In regards to your post :

It's called Single player RPG's, plenty of them.

Originally posted by flguy147

i understand people wanting to group but one of the reasons i want solo-friendly game is because too many a**holes to deal with in game to group with.  i dont want to group with punks that think they are internet bada**es.  if communities were more friendly i would be all for more group content but they arent.  and i know you will ask then why dont you play just solo game instead of mmos, well because mmos fell much more alive.  the world seems much more alive. 

Couldn't have said it better myself.

If I fire up Oblviion, it is painfully obvious that it is a solo player game. The entire world exists because of me.

An mmo is actually alive with people going about their business.

However, there are a great many people out there who just haven't learned how to play nice in a group. Fine, that's their prerogative I suppose. But given the amount of bad groups that I've had, I tend to lean toward clan/guild groups when they happen.

---

Originally posted by Sovrath

---

Originally posted by AstralMystic

It is only the result of Ignorance. A massive multi player online role playing game.

This genre is like the seed of a great tree and the poison that does not allow It to grow is solo game design.

A gamer should be allowed to play the game and have experiences without grouping but the core component that is needed for this genre to grow is community and grouping.

Player interactivity, grouping and community is as important to keeping this genre alive as food is to our bodies.

Without It, It becomes a dead life form.

---

 
oh god not this again.
There is more to life than hanging out with people ALL of the time. Do you mean to tell me that every aspect of your life must be in a group setting? You never enjoy alone time? Read a book? Good glass of wine, laying back and just relaxing?
If an mmo is supposed to be a "world" then I'm fairly confident that the people who make up that world are all different and require different levels of social interaction. the multi-player refers to numerous people in that world all playing at the same time. What they choose to do with their time depends on who they are.
Some will group all the time, some will spend a lot of time crafting, some will go out in the world and explore on their own.
it is very clear, given the numours types of people out there, that there will be numerous ways of playing these games.

---