I am not really that big of a Warhammer fan, but WAR did do one thing correctly, that being low level PvP. I enjoyed my initial time with WAR, those first 1-29 levels. This brings me to the title of this post, PvE games disguised as PvP games. When I first heard of Aion I wasnt all that interested due to it looking like just another animeish Korean grind fest, but when they announced that it contained a PvPvE system, it caught my attention,. For a long while now, I have been wanting a game that weaves PvE with PvP in a way that makes both viable forms of entertainment.

 Sadly, this game ignores what WAR created and thats viable PvP from low level with level advancement through PvP. By having your first 19 levels gained by forced PvE, you have basically declared this game a PvE game. I just dont understand the masochistic idea of having to earn the right to PvP. Video games are a form of entertainment and as such, I expect to be entertained. Would it have been so damn hard to introduce PvP at an earlier stage of the game than level 20 areas? I think not. I believe it would take more balancing to do this and its much easier(lazy) to simply not include PvP from levels 1-19. If you have played this game, you would realize that balance is pretty much non-existent in PvP and PvE from all levels excluding cap. Honestly, do we really want another WoW, where balance is only achieved at max level with top tier gear? I think not...

 I am not asking for much. All I am asking is that if your going to declare a game as a PvP game, then PvP better be a viable option for leveling from a very low level. Aion is declared a PvPvE game. Reading PvPvE brings to mind a game that balances both aspects of combat, yet this game does not seem to do either...

 You iz trollin' ... iz nut trollin'!

Excellent post OP. I haven't played Aion, but I agree strongly with the rest. Warhammer wasn't ALL bad, and leveling from the start in open and instanced PvP was its best feature. Low level PvP in the game was a ton of fun. I had several servers full of T2 alts by the time I finally quit. If I had had to PvE to earn PvP, I would have quit before my initial subscription had run out.

Any game that forces you to PvE in order to earn PvP fails as a PvP game.

well, I played Warhammer, infact have a 80rr toon.  And I agree leveling through pure pvp is fun. 

But I don't know what makes you think you can level in Aion through pure pvp. 

Maybe you should ask about it before you buy the game.

There was a huge thread made by people that complained about the exact opposite. Namely, because PvP was mixed into the PvE game. The thing is that this game was made in a very specific way. We can sit here contemplating on how better or worse it would be if it was made in some other way, or we could play it for what it is. And of course, if we don't like what we play, we can always abandon it and go find something better.

Originally posted by Xasapis

There was a huge thread made by people that complained about the exact opposite. Namely, because PvP was mixed into the PvE game. The thing is that this game was made in a very specific way. We can sit here contemplating on how better or worse it would be if it was made in some other way, or we could play it for what it is. And of course, if we don't like what we play, we can always abandon it and go find something better.

 Yes, Aion is made in a very specific way and that way is pretty much a copy of the failures that proceed it. If we have learned anything from the previous attempts at a PvP mmo that integrates PvE into it, its that...

 For PvP to be fun at all levels

1. Levels and Gear can not be the deciding factor in all engagements.(gear and level is everything in AIon PvP, hmm sounds like WoW)

2. Crowd Control can not make other classes usesless.  (example: Assassins and other melee classes must rely on consumables to break the heavy use of caster and ranged crowd control)

3. Consumable based PvP creates a heavy grinding situation for specific classes. (assassin is another good example of this, having to buy poisons and heal pots to break CC and the best gear they can get, caster classes are almost always less gear reliant in these games)

4. Dynamic PvE. (the first 19 levels of PvE grind fest are a chore)

5. And the most important, a PvP system that is based on tactical choices and not simply zerg warfare.

  Aion, like most PvP mmorpgs uses the same tacticless based combat that we have seen enough of already. Mass combat consists of 40 casters standing in a line and a templar to pull in a victim, then pop, The days of stealth insta kills casters, casters perma cc melee, melee struggles to simply move with its thumb up its ass, while healers spam heal everything in sight, are over. We need a new method and we need it now. I suggest.

1. Zerg mechanic detection.

 If you are targeted by multiple opponents, for every opponent over 2, you get a significant damage reduction. This forces players to spread their damage out over a group. lets face it, focus fire ruins mass combat. It always leads to specific targets (healers) insta-dieing to a zerg of casters. This would also alleviate the fact that melee simply melts when they approach a group of casters. What we want is mass combat is where people charge in and duke it out and not simply two armies of archers standing in lines firing at each other.

 The days of, fetch shaman, focus down, are over...

2. A very flat leveling system.

  Players want options and they want their choices to have meaning, yet, we do not want to be totally gimped by these choices. A big problem with most leveling systems for PvP is that the gap between just a few levels can be enormous. No one wants to go into a fight and believe that skill does not matter ,and that one level your opponent has on you has already decided the fight before it began. The leveling mechanic also encompasses the gear mechanic. One level usually means better gear and now you have two things going against you.

  I am not saying that gear should not matter. I believe gear should matter. I just do not believe it should matter to the extend it does in almost all mmorpgs out there. With a game like Guild Wars PvP, gear matters a lot yet its easy to get. In GW gear is more a tactical decision than a chore to get.

 I am also not saying that levels should not matter. I am saying that each level should give small increments of power to the player and not create huge gaps of power between the levels.

 Personally, I want dynamic PvP engagements where two armies charge into each other in a big brawl. In games like Aion and WAR, its more like two armies of archers shoot at each other while the melee just watches. Then there is the occasional fetch target focus fire...

Well, I would disagree that all the games before Aion were failures and that Aion has copied them. I think you have a lot of valid and interesting points but that what you are describing isn't a fantasy RPG but something along the lines of a twitch FPS game and there are certainly plenty of those out there.

The problem and it is one that you do address at the end of your ideas is that levels and equipment need to matter if you want people to do the work to attain them but getting them then gives that person an advantage over those that don't have them. I don't think the solution though is to water down the impact of the gear and the levels as that reduces the desire and the need to attain them. What drives players to work through the content to get those items is that they need them to be competitive and if you reduce the need then you reduce the desire to put in the effort to get them. And, then if you reduce the effort needed to get the items to match the willingness of players to work to get them then you water the system down even more.

There are probably three basic groups of game players here (well probably a lot more but for this I will say three). You have the PvP oriented, the PvE oriented and the ones who want to do a bit of both. Right now there isn't any one game that can cater to all three equally well. I'm not sure that it is actually possible to do that or even desirable to do it. Aion is trying to be a bit to all three and we will have to wait and see how it goes though they do run the risk of not meeting anyone's expectations and failing as a result. Right now it looks good as most people seem to be enjoying the game though this was also the case at this point in time with Warhammer so it is too early to say for sure.

Originally posted by rwmiller

 

Well, I would disagree that all the games before Aion were failures and that Aion has copied them. I think you have a lot of valid and interesting points but that what you are describing isn't a fantasy RPG but something along the lines of a twitch FPS game and there are certainly plenty of those out there.

 An mmorpg can encompass the things that I want. I am not asking for simply a twitch based FPS. Also, I am not saying that all the games before AION are failures. What I am saying is that the PvP in these games have pretty much been a failure.

The problem and it is one that you do address at the end of your ideas is that levels and equipment need to matter if you want people to do the work to attain them but getting them then gives that person an advantage over those that don't have them. I don't think the solution though is to water down the impact of the gear and the levels as that reduces the desire and the need to attain them. What drives players to work through the content to get those items is that they need them to be competitive and if you reduce the need then you reduce the desire to put in the effort to get them. And, then if you reduce the effort needed to get the items to match the willingness of players to work to get them then you water the system down even more.

 You have two categories of gamers here, 1. Players that get equipment because they enjoy to get equipment, and 2. Players that gain equipment because they have to. Warhammer tried to solve the equipment problem by giving equipment in both PvP and PvE which is the way to do it. Everyone should be able to attain gear in a way that is fun for them. Gaming is about entertainment and not suffering(unless you like suffering). In WAR i enjoyed PvP so gaining gear through it was the way to go, altho gear from PvP is few and far between in T1 and Mythic did a piss poor job balancing out PvE and PvP gear. I also believe that gear in WAR was still far to important. Id prefer small incremental changes to the character instead of +800 resist fire, woo, now Brighties cant touch me.

There are probably three basic groups of game players here (well probably a lot more but for this I will say three). You have the PvP oriented, the PvE oriented and the ones who want to do a bit of both. Right now there isn't any one game that can cater to all three equally well. I'm not sure that it is actually possible to do that or even desirable to do it. Aion is trying to be a bit to all three and we will have to wait and see how it goes though they do run the risk of not meeting anyone's expectations and failing as a result. Right now it looks good as most people seem to be enjoying the game though this was also the case at this point in time with Warhammer so it is too early to say for sure.

 In the end, players simply want to have fun. If the designers do not give you methods of leveling and attaining gear that you enjoy, be it crafting, PvP, PvE, Raiding, or whatever, then they are not really catering to the gamer and gaining gear and levels becomes a chore. I dont see it being that hard to cater to the three crowds of players that you speak of. A players needs can be met server side by creating, a PvP server, a PvE server, A limited PvP server. Now everyone can experience the game as they wish...

I'm sorry Aion didn't make the game just for you.

Let me take a quote from another gamer.  "wow is a game which try to please most of the gamer some of the time."  It goes the same for Aion.

Originally posted by laokoko

I'm sorry Aion didn't make the game just for you.

Let me take a quote from another gamer.  "wow is a game which try to please most of the gamer some of the time."  It goes the same for Aion.

 

 Obviously I am not just talking about AIon. I am talking about PvP in mmorpgs as a whole. Altho your couple sentence reply is very illuminating, no...

Originally posted by t0nyd

 I am not asking for much. All I am asking is that if your going to declare a game as a PvP game, then PvP better be a viable option for leveling from a very low level. Aion is declared a PvPvE game. Reading PvPvE brings to mind a game that balances both aspects of combat, yet this game does not seem to do either...

Totally agree, WAR does this (extremelly well), WoW does this (not so well), and sandbox games do this (you have no option). Seriously, a PvP game should be 'PvP'.
 

It's a PvPvE duh there's content for pveing and for pvping while yes they could make leveling via pvp earlier but some would want to pve before going to pvp with others..

Aion is a PvPvE game, not a PvE game nor a PvP game. It's trying to be the best of both possible. I'm sorry that Aion isn't the game the OP was looking for but it certainly wasn't disguising itself as a completely PvP game. It just sounds like a huge whine post on "this game sucks because it's not what I want". However we are living in Generation ME and it's all about you.

  Hello Kitty might just be the game for you.

Originally posted by t0nyd

Originally posted by laokoko

I'm sorry Aion didn't make the game just for you.

Let me take a quote from another gamer.  "wow is a game which try to please most of the gamer some of the time."  It goes the same for Aion.

 

 

 Obviously I am not just talking about AIon. I am talking about PvP in mmorpgs as a whole. Altho your couple sentence reply is very illuminating, no...

Let me take a quote from you.  "Video games are a form of entertainment and as such, I expect to be entertained."

So why am I forced into pvp just to make people like you happy.

Why is there rift to make gankers like you happy to gank people like me who don't want to pvp.

Why am I forced to go into abyss to pve for better exp and better drop.  Just so people like you can gank me.

The game company didn't make the game just for you.

Why would the NCsoft bother to make low level pvp when it only takes 30~60 hours to get to level25.  If you can't take that you going to quit anyway.

The importance of level and gear is there so people will spend countless hour trying to get it.  Which equates to more boring play time.

And the final point is, the game company want pvp player to pve.  Since it equate to more playing time.  So people like you won't blah blah about how you spend 100 hours in abyss and find it get boring.

Originally posted by laokoko

Originally posted by t0nyd

Originally posted by laokoko

I'm sorry Aion didn't make the game just for you.

Let me take a quote from another gamer.  "wow is a game which try to please most of the gamer some of the time."  It goes the same for Aion.

 

 

 Obviously I am not just talking about AIon. I am talking about PvP in mmorpgs as a whole. Altho your couple sentence reply is very illuminating, no...

 

Let me take a quote from you.  "Video games are a form of entertainment and as such, I expect to be entertained."

So why am I forced into pvp just to make people like you happy.

 I agree with you entirely. If you read all of my post you will notice that I believe PvE should be an options I believe in having PvE servers to cater to those that wish not to PvP.

Why is there rift to make gankers like you happy to gank people like me who don't want to pvp.

 Now your just being a bitch. No reason to call me a ganker. You do not know me or my play style. If you would simply pay attention and read all of my post you would realize that we both agree that PvE and PvP should be a viable option.

Why am I forced to go into abyss to pve for better exp and better drop.  Just so people like you can gank me.

The game company didn't make the game just for you.

 The point is the game company should make the game for a wide audience or it might as well expect sub par NA subs. These stock Korean mmos just do not do well over here, for a reason.

Why would the NCsoft bother to make low level pvp when it only takes 30~60 hours to get to level25.  If you can't take that you going to quit anyway.

 I play guild wars all the time, mainly because im not forced to PvE for hours to grind out gear and cash for consumables.

The importance of level and gear is there so people will spend countless hour trying to get it.  Which equates to more boring play time.

 Is this an argument or are you actually agreeing with me on something...

And the final point is, the game company want pvp player to pve.  Since it equate to more playing time.  So people like you won't blah blah about how you spend 100 hours in abyss and find it get boring.

  PvP doesnt bore me. Id like to know how you can read my mind. I can play Team Fortress 2 for hours due to it being PvP. Shrug...

Originally posted by FastTx

Aion is a PvPvE game, not a PvE game nor a PvP game. It's trying to be the best of both possible. I'm sorry that Aion isn't the game the OP was looking for but it certainly wasn't disguising itself as a completely PvP game. It just sounds like a huge whine post on "this game sucks because it's not what I want". However we are living in Generation ME and it's all about you.

  Its not even trying to give the best of both possibilities. If you can PvE from levels 1- cap and you can PvP from levels 25 to cap, hmm, the game obviously favors one form of play. Guess which form of play this game favors...

Originally posted by t0nyd

Originally posted by FastTx

Aion is a PvPvE game, not a PvE game nor a PvP game. It's trying to be the best of both possible. I'm sorry that Aion isn't the game the OP was looking for but it certainly wasn't disguising itself as a completely PvP game. It just sounds like a huge whine post on "this game sucks because it's not what I want". However we are living in Generation ME and it's all about you.

 

  Its not even trying to give the best of both possibilities. If you can PvE from levels 1- cap and you can PvP from levels 25 to cap, hmm, the game obviously favors one form of play. Guess which form of play this game favors...

You can pvp from level 25 to cap in Aion?

Originally posted by Coonhound

  Hello Kitty might just be the game for you.

I thought this was Hello Kitty.

---

Originally posted by t0nyd

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Originally posted by FastTx

Aion is a PvPvE game, not a PvE game nor a PvP game. It's trying to be the best of both possible. I'm sorry that Aion isn't the game the OP was looking for but it certainly wasn't disguising itself as a completely PvP game. It just sounds like a huge whine post on "this game sucks because it's not what I want". However we are living in Generation ME and it's all about you.

---

 
  Its not even trying to give the best of both possibilities. If you can PvE from levels 1- cap and you can PvP from levels 25 to cap, hmm, the game obviously favors one form of play. Guess which form of play this game favors...

---

This was an okay trolling attempt, but I've seen better. 4/10

If I wanted to PvP all the time I would play Halo3. Since this game has both PvP and PvE, people who don't like one or the other should play Halo3 or Hello Kitty's Island Adventure.

Aion is not a PvP game.  Sure there is pvp mixed into the pve but you'll be slaying monsters more than you'll be fighting players.  The whole reason to take fortresses is to unluck instanced dragon slaying for your faction.  Leveling through PvP in Aion is not a viable option, so you'll be grinding out those elusive monsters.

Then again NCSoft West hasn't said Aion was a "PvP" game.  The only people that call it that are the fans, and they are delusional to begin with anyways.