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10/13/09 12:52:42 AM#26
Originally posted by Gabby-air
After all the atrocities the Chinese government has committed, MMORPG censorship is the point where you put your foot down! Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying this is a good thing they're doing. It just strikes me as a pretty funny place to finally decide to draw the line. |
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10/13/09 12:56:33 AM#27
Originally posted by Demz2
Hate to disappoint you, but if you went to war with China you would LOSE! |
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10/13/09 1:02:28 AM#28
Originally posted by Laiina
That is exactly why the Communists will fail at their attempt at censorship yet again - those that want to play WOW etc will simply buy accounts outside of China. The only way they could stop it is to go the same route as North Korea, cut off all phone, wireless, and satellite communications in or out of the country. Never underestimate the stupidity of a dictatorship.
Why communist fail again? Do you mean non communist censorship will not fail? As for the WoW ban, its works. For those who knows english they can go play US WoW. For those who does not know english and does not bother enough to play WoW not understanding the language, they will play another game. That is a ban that works. As for stupidity, its reflects highly of you. WoW was not banned. It was a business dispute. Will simplified chinese text WoW returns in its old official capacity? Ask Blizz. The traditional chinese text WoW is running as usual. Many chinese players in china turned to this version, not the english version, you are wrong again. There are numerous private servers in China, that is where WoW is played in China. You are wrong again. What do I hear? the word "stupidity". Ah yeah. Fits you well. |
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10/13/09 1:02:56 AM#29
What do you expect from communists? Communism=fail and I think this thread has no place on mmorpg.com because we dont want it getting banned in china rofl |
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10/13/09 1:03:28 AM#30
Originally posted by LuckyR
No, the US would not lose a war with China, but it would also never win. It would be Vietnam x 100. But it will not come to that, the US could quite easily just slap a 100% import tax on chinese made games and consoles. |
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10/13/09 1:09:26 AM#31
Originally posted by LuckyR
Hate to disappoint you, but if you went to war with China you would LOSE!
So true. If US starts a war with China, there will be nothing left to buy on the supermarket shelves or departmental stores. No candy bars, no corn flakes. US is in no position to fight anyone sizable, after the Bush saga, US does not even have the reputation it once bank on to talk big in the world theatre. In the eyes of half of the world, Bush leads a rogue state invading Iraq. Good luck to you who still thinks US means good and fair. That is your own dream. Not even among ex ally countries like France or Germany. |
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10/13/09 1:09:42 AM#32
Come on no one ever buys china made games and consoles. |
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10/13/09 1:10:21 AM#33
100% agree, Amercia stands more chance of collapse through over extension and internal friction than China ever will, they are playing a long waiting game and doing very well out of it thank you very much. Currently Subbed EVE,MO,and Vanguard. |
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10/13/09 1:11:35 AM#34
Woah, woah, woah. This report doesn't seem to match up with the report I read a few days ago about China cracking down on the ENTIRE onling gamine scene all-together. Locking foreign investors out of China is simply wrong. Now, I understand that many people in China are extremely addicted to MMOs. At first I thought all those stories about people dying from exhaustion, gold farmer... plantations and MMO caused murders were just extremely rare cases. It would seem they may be more common than we thought if China is attempting to restrict online gaming. The report I read the other day said that they were targetting ALL online games, so this story about being selective so that China can grow an industry in other nations, but those nations can't grow the same industry that those nations BROUGHT to China in the first place in China sounds ridiculous. I am capable of understanding that the MMO addiction thing is more of a problem in China than anywhere else in the world, so I can not hold it against them if they believe this is the best policy to help their people even if it does remove more freedom. However, if this report is true that they're just going to remove all foreign investments in ridiculous. It would seem almost hypocritical after the report I read stating that they were cracking down on all online gaming, period. That said, after my experience playing Shadowbane and Lineage 2 with regular Chinese players as well as other MMOs with gold farmers... I honestly can't help but feel a bit happier knowing it's one less thing to worry about. I really don't feel like going into detail on what I mean with Shadowbane and Lineage 2 unless you want a TLDR post. |
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10/13/09 1:12:09 AM#35
Originally posted by Laiina
No, the US would not lose a war with China, but it would also never win. It would be Vietnam x 100. But it will not come to that, the US could quite easily just slap a 100% import tax on chinese made games and consoles.
My point is it would not be a war with China! It would be with China, Russia, and probably Iran. China alone can put an Army together with as many people as the USA has citizens. Damn place is like McDonalds, over a Billion served. 100% import tax would not work at all. It is American bussinesses that are buy Chinese and selling to the consumer. You would just be putting Americans out of work not Chinese. |
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10/13/09 1:13:52 AM#36
Originally posted by Silver_Leaf
Don't worry, count yourself lucky while you can still buy chinese made goods cheaper than they should be. China is reducing subsidies to US bound exports, they are shunning the US market. That plus the continued devaluation of US dollars means its not good business selling to US. Chinese firms are switching to internal market and to new markets. |
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10/13/09 1:21:35 AM#37
Originally posted by LuckyR
My point is it would not be a war with China! It would be with China, Russia, and probably Iran. China alone can put an Army together with as many people as the USA has citizens. Damn place is like McDonalds, over a Billion served. 100% import tax would not work at all. It is American bussinesses that are buy Chinese and selling to the consumer. You would just be putting Americans out of work not Chinese.
Very shrew observation. Add to the argument, the huge amount of Chinese investment now in US, the huge stock of US bonds in the hands of China. If China finds it necessary to go hostile, China can really damage the US economy by selling all US bonds, switching to trading in non US currency, and simply export to the richer countries whose currency is not falling like a rock. China does not need to mobilise its army. It has the production edge and internal market to keep its own production line churning. It has the production technology to keep its own R&D going. It can simply ignore US and live on happily. US will be isolated and looking very stupid if they go hostile to China. I do not think any US politician will do that. Half of the US business will die if China banned them. Who is going to fund the politician's parties and extravagant spending? |
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10/13/09 1:25:17 AM#38
Originally posted by lisubab
No not really. I think that china restricting western investment hurts china more than it hurts the US. Why should we copy that? Oh really? Another sweeping statement without proof or evidence. Hurt china more than US? China is not a person, US is not a person. Trade restrictions in any form benefits someone in China and hurts someone else, it also hurts someone in US and benefits someone else. Relaxing the restriction will reverse the grouping of who gets hurts/benefits. How do you add up the hurts and benefits of each individual in china to come up to a total hurt measure, how do you do that for US, how do you compare the 2 hurt measures to say China suffers more? Will that measure change tomorrow, will the hurt on China slowly scales back while US suffers more and more? There is no solution that benefits everyone on earth, or it will be adopted immediately, as no one will try to block it.
I posted my opinion and clearly stated it was my opinion (when I said "I think..."). Why should I need proof that it is my opnion? My statement stands on its own. And you didnt answer the question - why should we copy china? In my opinion (to be perfectly clear) trade restrictions hurt an economy. You restrict the investing in an economy and you hurt the economy. Thats bad business. Not the capitalist ideal at all. If they want to sour their economy that is no good reason for us to do the same to ours. We already have our own problems. No need to add theirs. |
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10/13/09 1:27:40 AM#39
Originally posted by kruler
This is very true. Global scale war, or even large scale war, is a war of attrition. That is how Germany lost it 65 years ago. If it is a war that brings everybody down to 1/10 of their living standards, quite a lot of chinese brought up in poor villages can survive. How many of our kids back home can do without McDonald weekends and regular visits to malls filled with wonderful goods? |
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10/13/09 1:34:36 AM#40
Originally posted by svann
No not really. I think that china restricting western investment hurts china more than it hurts the US. Why should we copy that? Oh really? Another sweeping statement without proof or evidence. Hurt china more than US? China is not a person, US is not a person. Trade restrictions in any form benefits someone in China and hurts someone else, it also hurts someone in US and benefits someone else. Relaxing the restriction will reverse the grouping of who gets hurts/benefits. How do you add up the hurts and benefits of each individual in china to come up to a total hurt measure, how do you do that for US, how do you compare the 2 hurt measures to say China suffers more? Will that measure change tomorrow, will the hurt on China slowly scales back while US suffers more and more? There is no solution that benefits everyone on earth, or it will be adopted immediately, as no one will try to block it.
I posted my opinion and clearly stated it was my opinion (when I said "I think..."). Why should I need proof that it is my opnion? My statement stands on its own. And you didnt answer the question - why should we copy china? In my opinion (to be perfectly clear) trade restrictions hurt an economy. You restrict the investing in an economy and you hurt the economy. Thats bad business. Not the capitalist ideal at all. If they want to sour their economy that is no good reason for us to do the same to ours. We already have our own problems. No need to add theirs. Now you changed your statement, your earlier statement is, it hurts China more than US. Now you said it hurts China. Your first statement is impossible to establish, because there is no measurement that can be constructed to establish your conclusion. Your new statement is based on some old old old classical economic theories, that tries to sell free trade as the "best" solution. That is already 100 years old theory. No one really believe in that "unconditionally". Society is not one person, free trade bring benefits to someone and causes hardship to someone else. There is still no way to add up the gains and losses, as the gaining party will always rejoice and the suffering party always bickering. I say, the best solution for US is to rob you all and give the money to me. US under me is the best. Yeah yeah yeah, you agree? Do we need to copy China? I do not think anyone here argues about that, so its an agreement among us all now. |
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10/13/09 1:35:46 AM#41
Originally posted by lisubab
This is very true. Global scale war, or even large scale war, is a war of attrition. That is how Germany lost it 65 years ago. If it is a war that brings everybody down to 1/10 of their living standards, quite a lot of chinese brought up in poor villages can survive. How many of our kids back home can do without McDonald weekends and regular visits to malls filled with wonderful goods?
Without a war against China, many American kids are already having to learn to live without those little luxuries. We have enough to deal with in our current war against the local capitalists to worry about the communists across the Pacific from us. This one isn't at all directed at you, but I have to say, I'm pretty disappointed that in the 21st century, so many people still don't know the difference between communism and fascism. Just because they so often go hand in hand is no reason to refer to the latter as the former. :/ |
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10/13/09 1:42:30 AM#42
Originally posted by Salvatoris
Without a war against China, many American kids are already having to learn to live without those little luxuries. We have enough to deal with in our current war against the local capitalists to worry about the communists across the Pacific from us. This one isn't at all directed at you, but I have to say, I'm pretty disappointed that in the 21st century, so many people still don't know the difference between communism and fascism. Just because they so often go hand in hand is no reason to refer to the latter as the former. :/
You mean communism as written thru Communist Manifesto, das Kapital and the later collected works known as the Theory of Surplus Value? Or you mean communism as the form of gov't that Lenin built up after the October revolution and later spreads out as vassels to protect Russia/USSR? Clearly Lenin build a "communist" country that does not correspond to Karl Marx's view of universal communism, one that would naturally evolves after capitalism matures and breaks down national borders. Karl Marx does not believe in a country's communism, its a world's communism -- Trotsky, not Stalin's version of the ideology. |
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10/13/09 7:56:34 AM#43
Originally posted by lisubab Oh really? Another sweeping statement without proof or evidence. Hurt china more than US? China is not a person, US is not a person. Trade restrictions in any form benefits someone in China and hurts someone else, it also hurts someone in US and benefits someone else. Relaxing the restriction will reverse the grouping of who gets hurts/benefits. How do you add up the hurts and benefits of each individual in china to come up to a total hurt measure, how do you do that for US, how do you compare the 2 hurt measures to say China suffers more? Will that measure change tomorrow, will the hurt on China slowly scales back while US suffers more and more? There is no solution that benefits everyone on earth, or it will be adopted immediately, as no one will try to block it.
I posted my opinion and clearly stated it was my opinion (when I said "I think..."). Why should I need proof that it is my opnion? My statement stands on its own. And you didnt answer the question - why should we copy china? In my opinion (to be perfectly clear) trade restrictions hurt an economy. You restrict the investing in an economy and you hurt the economy. Thats bad business. Not the capitalist ideal at all. If they want to sour their economy that is no good reason for us to do the same to ours. We already have our own problems. No need to add theirs. Now you changed your statement, your earlier statement is, it hurts China more than US. Now you said it hurts China. Your first statement is impossible to establish, because there is no measurement that can be constructed to establish your conclusion. Your new statement is based on some old old old classical economic theories, that tries to sell free trade as the "best" solution. That is already 100 years old theory. No one really believe in that "unconditionally". Society is not one person, free trade bring benefits to someone and causes hardship to someone else. There is still no way to add up the gains and losses, as the gaining party will always rejoice and the suffering party always bickering. I say, the best solution for US is to rob you all and give the money to me. US under me is the best. Yeah yeah yeah, you agree? Do we need to copy China? I do not think anyone here argues about that, so its an agreement among us all now.
The person I replied to (Caleveira) said basically that since china restricts foreign investment in their country so should we. This is the point I was discussing if you didnt understand. So yes he did say we should copy china, just not in those words. Should we restrict chinese investments in US just because they restrict US investment in China? My position is it would do us no good. |
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10/13/09 8:11:21 AM#44
If China waged an economical war on the US, under the Bush era, you would have seen the end of the world because his answer would have been nukes, and we know where that leads. But, doesn't the culture of china basically allow for communism to stay in place? |
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10/13/09 8:21:04 AM#45
Originally posted by lisubab
Without a war against China, many American kids are already having to learn to live without those little luxuries. We have enough to deal with in our current war against the local capitalists to worry about the communists across the Pacific from us. This one isn't at all directed at you, but I have to say, I'm pretty disappointed that in the 21st century, so many people still don't know the difference between communism and fascism. Just because they so often go hand in hand is no reason to refer to the latter as the former. :/
You mean communism as written thru Communist Manifesto, das Kapital and the later collected works known as the Theory of Surplus Value? Or you mean communism as the form of gov't that Lenin built up after the October revolution and later spreads out as vassels to protect Russia/USSR? Clearly Lenin build a "communist" country that does not correspond to Karl Marx's view of universal communism, one that would naturally evolves after capitalism matures and breaks down national borders. Karl Marx does not believe in a country's communism, its a world's communism -- Trotsky, not Stalin's version of the ideology.
If you have read the communist manifesto, then you are probably one of the few people here that do understand what I was getting at. When we were kids they taught us that communism meant you had no rights. Communism is an economic principle, flawed as it may be, it has nothing to do with freedom of speech... despite what they taught us in social studies class. Sure, most fascist regimes also promote communism as a means to get a total government control, but the two do not necessarily have to go hand in hand. The Chinese government censoring information on the internet has nothing whatsoever to do with communism, neither did horror stories about the KGB kicking your door in and vanishing you away for speaking out against the government. Those two governments just happen to be both communist and fascist.
democracy is NOT the opposite of communism, capitalism is. :/ |
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10/13/09 8:24:25 AM#46
Originally posted by Swanea
I believe this is not the case. China is moving towards Democracy. It's hard to see, because the progress is being made at a glacial place, and this is on purpose. This is the Chinese problem. 1 Billion people. literally 100's of millions of people still live in an agrarian society. They still have to transition all these people into the 21st century. It is a monumental task. Capitalism has been unleashed, and it continues to create the wealthy and a new middle class. however, the Chinese must proceed slowly to avoid chaos. They cannot simply abandon Communism and go to a real democracy when the country is divided between sophisticated urban city dwellers, and millions and millions of people in the country side, some without even electricity. But as the middle class continues to grow, more and more democracy will creep into the system. What good is money at some point, without the freedom to enjoy it? I make lots of money, but I can't even play WoW if I want to? That sort of system cannot last, and will eventually self disintegrate. But not overnight, more like 100 years. The key to continued success in the US is ENERGY. Solve the problem of using oil and sending billions of dollars a day to places like Saudi Arabia and Venezuela and you will solve much of America's problems.
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10/13/09 8:27:59 AM#47
Originally posted by Salvatoris
You mean communism as written thru Communist Manifesto, das Kapital and the later collected works known as the Theory of Surplus Value? Or you mean communism as the form of gov't that Lenin built up after the October revolution and later spreads out as vassels to protect Russia/USSR? Clearly Lenin build a "communist" country that does not correspond to Karl Marx's view of universal communism, one that would naturally evolves after capitalism matures and breaks down national borders. Karl Marx does not believe in a country's communism, its a world's communism -- Trotsky, not Stalin's version of the ideology.
If you have read the communist manifesto, then you are probably one of the few people here that do understand what I was getting at. When we were kids they taught us that communism meant you had no rights. Communism is an economic principle, flawed as it may be, it has nothing to do with freedom of speech... despite what they taught us in social studies class. Sure, most fascist regimes also promote communism as a means to get a total government control, but the two do not necessarily have to go hand in hand. The Chinese government censoring information on the internet has nothing whatsoever to do with communism, neither did horror stories about the KGB kicking your door in and vanishing you away for speaking out against the government. Those two governments just happen to be both communist and fascist.
Wrong. The Communist Manifesto is NOT the definition of Communism, it is one man's vision of how a Communist society should be run, and it's a stupid vision because it relies on all the people in control being Angels, but since we dont' live in Heaven that never works out.
Number 1 problem with Communism: No checks and Balances. As you can see by the actual definition of Communism, it certainly DOES allow for practices such as curtailing Freedom of Speech, and it could be argued that Communism cannot function with freedom of speech, that they are antithetical to one another. 1. a theory or system of social organization based on the holding of all property in common, actual ownership being ascribed to the community as a whole or to the state.
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10/13/09 8:36:54 AM#48
This thread is just facepalmic. |
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10/13/09 8:45:07 AM#49
Well if America went to war with China as a country China right now would lose. Unlike the recent wars against people inside other countries a war with a country makes targeting civilian populations that has industry is allowed. With China having 60% of its population in only 30% of its country they would take a very heavy toll from US missile bombardments. As to Chinese nukes...US NIKE defense systems can hit incoming Continental Ballistic missile coming from Russia and China because they are pre-targetted (if the technology works right...but for this I will assume the science is sound). China's other problem is they can not extend their forces over the sea. They do not have enough fast moving naval ships and would have to us slow moving trade freighters that would be easy targets. Do not confuse a war between countries and a war between a country and a group in another country. In all out war think WW2 and the acceptability of civilian casualties because to hold back is extincition or subjugation of your country. |
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10/13/09 8:49:23 AM#50
Originally posted by Horusra That war will not be won by anyone, both sides will lose and it will impact the entire world severely. |
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