Originally posted by Anubisan

EVE is currently the best sandbox MMORPG on the market in my opinion...

However, I think SWG is second on the list. Regardless of everything that was done to the game and the deep seeded hatred that so many of you feel for it, the game as it is now STILL has more features that sanbox fans look for than nearly any other title.

Is SWG a great game? In my opinion, most definitely no. Is SWG a well-featured sandbox? Yes.

Level based gameplay, instanced dungeons, instanced pvp, pre defined character classes, scripted quest based advancement, NPC item loot based economy.  Those are not aspects of a sandbox game. 

Really, housing is the last real sandbox feature swg has left.

Originally posted by Daffid011

Originally posted by Anubisan

EVE is currently the best sandbox MMORPG on the market in my opinion...

However, I think SWG is second on the list. Regardless of everything that was done to the game and the deep seeded hatred that so many of you feel for it, the game as it is now STILL has more features that sanbox fans look for than nearly any other title.

Is SWG a great game? In my opinion, most definitely no. Is SWG a well-featured sandbox? Yes.

 

Level based gameplay, instanced dungeons, instanced pvp, pre defined character classes, scripted quest based advancement, NPC item loot based economy.  Those are not aspects of a sandbox game. 

Really, housing is the last real sandbox feature swg has left.

 

 

Im getting excited about STO looks like they will have skills.   Reading about it at the moment.   But definatly SWG crafting has gone solo, either its craft for yourself or freinds.    Thier are people that do craft but its on order, you must have the parts, and its gonna cost you at least 100mill for a good Armor set these days.     Haha and they cried for no decay, and look what happened.    If you ask me all the people that wanted the NGE got what they deserved, but it sucks everyone else had to take it from SOE.   Then again if you add up the loss from launch to CU and then to NGE, the game has gone through at least 1 million.  

1 million boxes sold, that says something too, 1 million tried the game and left.

I hafta say, when I first played SWG it was a great sandbox game with so many possibilities.

When I tried that 2 month vet re-trail thing....Wow...Themepark mania.  Was nothing like it.  Not even talking about the combat system, since I had a taste of that terribleness before I quit.

*Looks around for the old profession system*

Still not there, still epic fail.

let me ask a question

how many of the people playing the nge are truthful about it? how many people can really claim it's fun and that people like it?

and how many vets are out there who have been fighting tooth and nail for our pre-cu swg to be returned to us?

Right now I have three issues with SWG.

1. The animations are awful

2. The combat is probably the worst out of all the P2p MMos

3. I just can not get around how truely bad the class system is.

It feels like someone took SWG and mad a WoW mod with it. It's a pathetic game even if it has a couple nice little features still.

Originally posted by stillkillin

let me ask a question

how many of the people playing the nge are truthful about it? how many people can really claim it's fun and that people like it?

and how many vets are out there who have been fighting tooth and nail for our pre-cu swg to be returned to us?

 

I think it all depends on what you do in-game. SWG's combat has gone down hill in a massive way. TBH, I prefer the FPS style pew-pew-pew of the NGE over the TAB que-que-que combat any day...but not SWG's style of it. The NGE tried to do what "I" like...make it a kinda casual FPS. Unfortunately, adding that "style" AFTER SWG's code was finished has caused numerous problems...everything from specials misfiring, heals not going off, NPCs warping, LoS issues, lag (AoE calcs are a huge reason for lag).

Until the TCG, crafters who enjoyed "crafting", not running a business, still had a place in SWG...but the TCG is quickly replacing them. Pilots still love their limited arena. Creative and artistic people will not find an MMO out there that can compete with SWG...but again...the TCG has hurt that group as well. Most "decorators" were also avid collectors...and now, collectors are limited to TCG buyers.

Ya know...you have a point I guess. I tried to figure out what group of players have benefited from the NGE. Ents? No. Combat? No. Crafting? Nope. Pilots? No. The ONLY group that may be better off is Mayor. Lower population requirements, less competing Mayors so leveling up a city is easier than ever.

There's way too many cons to list, best sandbox maybe but not best MMO at all- not even close. The way SOE treats customers and the crap they're pedaling out lately... UGH, Draakull reminds me alot of Treyarch's JD_2020, both insults customers and flames them and bans them with little reason.

After talking with some friends that still plays SWG, the chronicles isn't that great and they're not looking forward to the death troopers update, there's little good left in SWG besides the crafting system (which is still hands down the best of any game, even when it got dumbed down). And I can't stand the combat system, last time I played the spike damage was way out of whack that it wasn't even funny, I imagine it's just as bad now if not worse.

Originally posted by sookster54

Draakull reminds me alot of Treyarch's JD_2020, both insults customers and flames them and bans them with little reason.

 

That is an odd reference lol, but true!

Originally posted by BullseyeArc1

Originally posted by Anubisan

EVE is currently the best sandbox MMORPG on the market in my opinion...

However, I think SWG is second on the list. Regardless of everything that was done to the game and the deep seeded hatred that so many of you feel for it, the game as it is now STILL has more features that sanbox fans look for than nearly any other title.

Is SWG a great game? In my opinion, most definitely no. Is SWG a well-featured sandbox? Yes.

 

EVE is a pretty good sandbox, it has its problems though.   SWG was a pretty good sandbox for the first 4 years.   I see people still crafting and selling, but loot has taken over.   SWG suffers from hyper inflation, everything good costs millions of credits.    I have all the crafters and its not worth making anything beyond for yourself these days.    

SWG has the best crafting game I have ever seen in any mmo, its a shame they dont appreaciate it at all.    Right now the TCG card game loot is priority and more than likely will be till they shut the game down.     EVE is like how SWG used to be, risk and reward.    I liked that small profit, you had a game economy back in 2003-2006, that part of the game is gone.    I used to have to pay people to farm up resources, then I would have a overhead with vendors houses, and harvestors that always kept me buisy and having fun.      Now its plop in a few million into the harvestor and not even worry cause Im raking in millions of credits for a backpack I looted, and no one cares about spending millions cause the credit farmers have put in billions of credits into the game.    SOE even rewards people in game for this, thier is a Billionare title, and we all know all those credits were bought.   

Ehh I wouldn't say that, when I quit the game in Nov 2005 (just under 2.5 years of playing) I had around 500 million in credits.  If I kept playing until now 1 Billion would have been nothing to achieve.

Originally posted by sookster54

There's way too many cons to list, best sandbox maybe but not best MMO at all- not even close. The way SOE treats customers and the crap they're pedaling out lately... UGH, Draakull reminds me alot of Treyarch's JD_2020, both insults customers and flames them and bans them with little reason.

After talking with some friends that still plays SWG, the chronicles isn't that great and they're not looking forward to the death troopers update, there's little good left in SWG besides the crafting system (which is still hands down the best of any game, even when it got dumbed down). And I can't stand the combat system, last time I played the spike damage was way out of whack that it wasn't even funny, I imagine it's just as bad now if not worse.

Yes. The spike damage is still ridiculous.

I am not playing now. Haven't for what seems an eternity. I use to go back in three month cycles after the NGE, till then I was straight on for 2+ years. In the two years I played before the NGE, I never once ground, or tried to grind, a Jedi. They sucked and I was Imperial.

There was one second when I thought they might be on the right track, unfortunately they took that track and made it the basis of every last update to the game. IIRC, the skill trees were completed about the same time as Restuss, and Restuss was a lot of fun until you realized it was a grind. Commendations for awhile became the defacto sgw currency. Over a month I realized it was the first time swg felt like a South Korean grinding game (no offense, they set a standard for grinding). Then came the GCW grind, then the four stat grind, then came the +35 grind, and then the "heroics" grind for jewelry. In between there were nerfs handed down to each system rendering most "work" (worthless) re-grindable. I don't only mean each system, because aside to that every class was slapped with multiple revamps, rendering for many, even more grinding to re-equip their character. Sound familiar?

Not to mention the economy, at the point I left, was so far inflated a new player would be completely asked to submit to yet another grind for credits.

Is swg still a sandbox? At the core of the design sure (always was there), but in order to be effective you have to run these little instances for GCW and Heroics? Doesn't sound very sandboxy to me...

---

Originally posted by dalevi1
I am not playing now. Haven't for what seems an eternity. I use to go back in three month cycles after the NGE, till then I was straight on for 2+ years. In the two years I played before the NGE, I never once ground, or tried to grind, a Jedi. They sucked and I was Imperial.
There was one second when I thought they might be on the right track, unfortunately they took that track and made it the basis of every last update to the game. IIRC, the skill trees were completed about the same time as Restuss, and Restuss was a lot of fun until you realized it was a grind. Commendations for awhile became the defacto sgw currency. Over a month I realized it was the first time swg felt like a South Korean grinding game (no offense, they set a standard for grinding). Then came the GCW grind, then the four stat grind, then came the +35 grind, and then the "heroics" grind for jewelry. In between there were nerfs handed down to each system rendering most "work" (worthless) re-grindable. I don't only mean each system, because aside to that every class was slapped with multiple revamps, rendering for many, even more grinding to re-equip their character. Sound familiar?
Not to mention the economy, at the point I left, was so far inflated a new player would be completely asked to submit to yet another grind for credits.
Is swg still a sandbox? At the core of the design sure (always was there), but in order to be effective you have to run these little instances for GCW and Heroics? Doesn't sound very sandboxy to me...

---

This is exactly how I feel about the "game" myself. The last time I played, it became more of a chat room with avatars. Mainly because I was disgusted by all of the mindless grinding in the game for one item after another. Grinding has its purpose in every RPG; but, when you are lucid for it 99% of the time...it kills the fun.

I find it deeply ironic that the boosters of this game who cite all of "sandbox" elements in the current game neglect to mention that virtually all of these elements were present in the pre-cu and much more prevalent.

The crafting systems is still touted as one of the "strengths" of SWG, depsite how many severe hits it has taken. Now, there are 4 "professions" that craft, plus beastmaster, which is a weak combination of CH and Bioengineer. In the pre-NGE days, all but "pure" combat classes had something to craft mostly. Smuggler could craft spice, Doctors/Combat medics had medical supplies and buff packs, BioEng had pet stims, Rangers had camps, and the list goes on. All of that was in the crafting system and more, and was taken away. What remains is the crafting system the boosters hold up as a strength of the current SWG. Maybe it is, but it is 1/4 of what it used to be.

Another thing the boosters say about the crafting system is "It's still the same as the pre-NGE, still just as good, you can still make all the same things, etc etc." Much of that is technically true, you can make most ofthe same items as before, only, the game world has changed since the pre-NGE and made a majority of those items useless/worthless. No decay is a big part, so armor and clothing never wear out. The massively overcrowded buff system, has made chef items much, much less useful. Since the TCG has been introduced, "Engineers" have gotten the complete shaft, with 10-20 new vehicles introduced, through the much discussed "TCG Loot cards (lottery scam)", with Shpwrights also losing out on 5+ new ships, of which none are crafted.

And theerin lies a bigger problem: the direction the game is going in. Bigger grind (with this new holocron chronicle system which is getting very mixed reviews, (go check the O-Boards), lesser emphasis on crafting and non-combat aspects of the game, and the increasing "pay extra for content" attitude SOE has all taken this game further from its roots and is now much less the great sandbox it once was.

"Best Sandbox MMORPG out there?" Was once, now isn't.

Alright... as I seem to have overstepped myself in both the original post and a couple following posts, I'll elucidate my position as best I can here.

In no way do I believe SWG is perfect. I enjoy it, however, despite its myriad flaws. What follows are two lists: one of things that I like about the game, and one of things that I dislike about the game.

While there are more dislikes than likes, in general the likes are of things that are more significant, like the complexity of the crafting system.

Neither list is exhaustive, but this is everything I can think of off the top of my head.

Likes

• Variable quality resources in finite quantities
• Variety of craftable items
• Complexity of crafting system
• Support for running a business (profitable or otherwise) based on player-crafted items
• Player-created quest system
• Good range of character creation options available
• Good range of ground vehicles and mounts
• Fun space combat system
• Good support for player-run events
• Complex player housing and interior/city decorating system
• Regularly released new items/housing (TCG)
• Ability to have any appearance regardless of items equipped
• Variety of vehicles, weapons, armor, and clothing

Dislikes

• Inability to jump/lack of proper 3-dimensional ground movement
• Lack of atmospheric vehicles
• "Realistic" graphics style
• Permanently unpaved player cities
• Class-based system
• Utter lack of coherent non-player content
• Prevalence/nature of Jedi
• Ability of Rebels to walk around in the open on Imperial worlds
• Unplanned/random nature of initial launch worlds
• Removal of 10-minute wait times on shuttles
• Lack of vehicular ground combat
• De-emphasis of crafter-created content with the release of the TCG
• Attempt to shoehorn canon characters into roles they were not intended for (e.g. Emperor giving quests to plebs)
• Insta-travel shuttle system
• Release of the NGE
• Clunky GUI

Originally posted by Riceman

Alright... as I seem to have overstepped myself in both the original post and a couple following posts, I'll elucidate my position as best I can here.

In no way do I believe SWG is perfect. I enjoy it, however, despite its myriad flaws. What follows are two lists: one of things that I like about the game, and one of things that I dislike about the game.

While there are more dislikes than likes, in general the likes are of things that are more significant, like the complexity of the crafting system.

Neither list is exhaustive, but this is everything I can think of off the top of my head.

Likes

• Variable quality resources in finite quantities - was in the Pre-CU game
• Variety of craftable items - was in the Pre-CU game
• Complexity of crafting system - was much more in the PRE-CU game
• Support for running a business (profitable or otherwise) based on player-crafted items - was in PRE-CU
• Player-created quest system - "system" was not in PRE-CU, but RPers made do anyway
• Good range of character creation options available - was in PRE-CU
• Good range of ground vehicles and mounts - was in PRE-CU
• Fun space combat system - was in PRE-CU
• Good support for player-run events - was even more in PRE-CU
• Complex player housing and interior/city decorating system - was in PRE-CU
• Regularly released new items/housing (TCG) new items went in for free during the CU/PRE-CU
• Ability to have any appearance regardless of items equipped I'll give you this one, but it still hurts tailors and AS
• Variety of vehicles, weapons, armor, and clothing - was in PRE-CU

Dislikes

• Inability to jump/lack of proper 3-dimensional ground movement - should have been in original game
• Lack of atmospheric vehicles -  in there by way of the Hoth snowspeeder, but may have unbalanced combat
• "Realistic" graphics style - has gotten worse with particle effects - and remove animations - NGE
• Permanently unpaved player cities - mayors asked the Devs for paving stones for years. 
• Class-based system - NGE
• Utter lack of coherent non-player content NGE
• Prevalence/nature of Jedi - latter CU (because making the system very easy) and NGE
• Ability of Rebels to walk around in the open on Imperial worlds - NGE removed meaningful faction checks
• Unplanned/random nature of initial launch worlds - eh, NGE 
• Removal of 10-minute wait times on shuttles - NGE
• Lack of vehicular ground combat - should have gone in when vehicles did, for multi-s at least
• De-emphasis of crafter-created content with the release of the TCG - Smed is a greedy bastard - NGE
• Attempt to shoehorn canon characters into roles they were not intended for (e.g. Emperor giving quests to plebs) - the Devs have never paid enough attention to canon, although some compromises had to be made
• Insta-travel shuttle system - NGE
• Release of the NGE - Smed is a greedy bastard with WoW envy who cared nothing about his paying customers
• Clunky GUI - while never perfect during the PRE-CU - the NGE required people to do massive key rebinding, use an "illegal" 3rd party utility, or grow a third hand - NGE

Part of the reason you are getting pushback, is that although much of what you like is there, the point many of us Vets can't/won't let SOE slide on, and let people forget, is that SOE chose to remove even more of what was great about the game in a sorry attempt to WoW-ify things.

They INTENTIONALLY removed complexity of the various systems, player interdependency, devalued crafters/crafting, created a linear toon grind, introduced expertise, and a crappy card game all while taking our sub money to do it. AND lied about it saying it was what "players" wanted and it was what they got from non-existent focus groups. And don't forget "Too much Reading" Nancy and LA either.

On top of all that, it was not just what Smed and the tard circus did, but how they did it and how the strung people along with empty promises and BS.

Imagine how good the current game would be if SOE spent all that time and energy building on what was there, instead of tearing down what existing players liked. They continue to do this TO THIS DAY.

Looks like most of what you like was there during the PRE-CU and most of what you don't was introduced by the NGE,  made worse by the NGE, or was missing from the game to begin with.

"Was" the best mmo.

Originally posted by Riceman

Alright... as I seem to have overstepped myself in both the original post and a couple following posts, I'll elucidate my position as best I can here.

In no way do I believe SWG is perfect. I enjoy it, however, despite its myriad flaws.

That's all ya had to say :) And THAT is a fair review IMO.

Originally posted by Burntvet

On top of all that, it was not just what Smed and the tard circus did, but how they did it and how the strung people along with empty promises and BS.

 

 

Sorry, but that made me LOL out loud IRL for real.

First off, I have to get this out of the way, I HATE you guys.  :)  I had no intention of ever, EVER, doing anything in this forum other than occasionally lurking when I was on lunch at work.  Signing up to post was never in any of my plans.

I'll also get it out of the way that I am the same Darev Sool from the SOE boards.  I have 5 active accounts, I've had 5 accounts since before the start of the CU.  My first account was beta 3 and my first toon was "Darev Sool" on Kauri.

Star Wars Galaxies was my first MMO.  I've dabbled with WOW, but I just can't get into it.  The whole 'sword and sorcery' thing doesn't do it for me.

Now that the very basic intro is over, I'll get on topic.

I have to totally agree with the OP.  In my opinion, it is by far the best sandbox-mmo out there.  However...I don't know of too many others that exist so it's not exactly competing with much.  I don't consider WOW a sandbox-mmo.  Someone mentioned Ryzom.  I remember seeing that here on this site before it launched and signed up for beta, and got it.  I don't remember why i didn't like it, but it could be as simple as it wasn't SWG, which at the time was still in pre-cu era (if I remember correctly.)

Regarding the NGE.  It sucked.  My buddy's last straw was getting stuck in combat with a backpack his toon had dropped in his house on Corellia.  He couldn't break out of combat, and had to alt tab out and force quit the game.  It was buggy, horrible, and the only reason I stayed was because of the space game.

Currently, I moved off Kauri to TCPrime (well, a couple years ago when they launched the new, CLEAN, server) and have been having fun ever since.  The additions to the game, overall, have been outstanding.  Yes, they're mainly PVE orientated (with exception to the battlefields which a lot of PVP'rs seem to dislike) but that's always been my fun zone, PVE and crafting.  I can admit it, I suck at PVP, I don't enjoy it, in space or on the ground, so I don't try to learn.  In theory, the next major update will be all about the GCW and PVP should, hopefully, be a large part of that.

Someone above mentioned Smedly as if was the reason the NGE came into fruition.  He may have been the frontman on the SOE side, but, and this is complete heresay on my part, I suspect what happened is as follows:

Game launch, bugs to work out, continual effort to balance 20+ combat profs and then the many cross variations that were possible.  The 'secret combat upgrage' being worked on behind the scenes that never came to be is replaced by the CU that we were given.  

Then...WOW comes out...BLIZZARD is behind it...very large launch.  

Somehow, and this is my theory, George Lucas either seeks out subscription information on both and compares them, or someone informs him of it.  He thinks "I have STAR WARS" and pushes SOE to come up with a system to get (ever expanding) WOW subscription numbers.  SOE, maybe not knowing exactly what to do, thinks "Let's just copy it." or as much as they could copy and still fit in with the code that already exists.

That's always been my thought on that whole thing.  I could be wrong, I may have mixed up some of the timetable I presented...but overall I wouldn't be surprised if it went down something like that. 

Originally posted by darev  

Somehow, and this is my theory, George Lucas either seeks out subscription information on both and compares them, or someone informs him of it.  He thinks "I have STAR WARS" and pushes SOE to come up with a system to get (ever expanding) WOW subscription numbers.  SOE, maybe not knowing exactly what to do, thinks "Let's just copy it." or as much as they could copy and still fit in with the code that already exists.

Do you honestly think George has ever even looked at SWG? I think the the closest he's ever been to caring about SWG is when he signs the back of the royalties check LA gives him...and I bet he uses a stamp for that.

Originally posted by darev 

Somehow, and this is my theory, George Lucas either seeks out subscription information on both and compares them, or someone informs him of it.  He thinks "I have STAR WARS" and pushes SOE to come up with a system to get (ever expanding) WOW subscription numbers.  SOE, maybe not knowing exactly what to do, thinks "Let's just copy it." or as much as they could copy and still fit in with the code that already exists.

 

That's always been my thought on that whole thing.  I could be wrong, I may have mixed up some of the timetable I presented...but overall I wouldn't be surprised if it went down something like that. 

Interesting theories, except that almost every former soe dev that has talked openly has said it was the brain child of soe and soe pushed for the nge.  You can also see this same type of game development mentality in other soe games at the time.  SOe just loves combat revamps and George Lucas has no control over EQ2/MxO/Etc.  Furthermore you can see wow emulation in their other titles as well. 

I have no doubt Lucas Arts and SOE were very disappointed with the performance of SWG.  The game released to huge success, but started losing subs at a fairly steady pace.  Even if wow never released swg was headed towards a bad place instead of taking command of the genre like it could have.  Soe failed on multiple occassions to produce and I don't fault lucas arts if they were mad as hell at the results.

Originally posted by TUX426

Originally posted by darev  

Somehow, and this is my theory, George Lucas either seeks out subscription information on both and compares them, or someone informs him of it.  He thinks "I have STAR WARS" and pushes SOE to come up with a system to get (ever expanding) WOW subscription numbers.  SOE, maybe not knowing exactly what to do, thinks "Let's just copy it." or as much as they could copy and still fit in with the code that already exists.

 

Do you honestly think George has ever even looked at SWG? I think the the closest he's ever been to caring about SWG is when he signs the back of the royalties check LA gives him...and I bet he uses a stamp for that.

Yes, I do think that he's seen it at least once.  I can't imagine ANYONE being so blase about their own brainchild that just because it's outside of the actual canon (the films) that they wouldn't at least be a tad bit curious.

Then, from strictly a business perspective, if I were him, I would want, at bare minimum, 6 month reports that said at least "It's doing ok, SOE's still making a profit, we're getting paid and they want to keep the license another year after its up."

Hey, that's me, and I'm not him.

Originally posted by Burntvet 

Part of the reason you are getting pushback, is that although much of what you like is there, the point many of us Vets can't/won't let SOE slide on, and let people forget, is that SOE chose to remove even more of what was great about the game in a sorry attempt to WoW-ify things.

They INTENTIONALLY removed complexity of the various systems, player interdependency, devalued crafters/crafting, created a linear toon grind, introduced expertise, and a crappy card game all while taking our sub money to do it. AND lied about it saying it was what "players" wanted and it was what they got from non-existent focus groups. And don't forget "Too much Reading" Nancy and LA either.

On top of all that, it was not just what Smed and the tard circus did, but how they did it and how the strung people along with empty promises and BS.

Imagine how good the current game would be if SOE spent all that time and energy building on what was there, instead of tearing down what existing players liked. They continue to do this TO THIS DAY.

Looks like most of what you like was there during the PRE-CU and most of what you don't was introduced by the NGE,  made worse by the NGE, or was missing from the game to begin with. 

Whether a part of the game is pre-CU, post-CU, or post-NGE is irrelevant to me. I've been a subscriber (with occasional 1-3 month breaks) since three days after retail release. I've enjoyed the game in most of its incarnations for a very long time, with only a few exceptions (such as immediately following the release of the NGE).

I still hold that it's an enjoyable game, from my perspective.

Originally posted by darev 

Yes, I do think that he's seen it at least once.  I can't imagine ANYONE being so blase about their own brainchild that just because it's outside of the actual canon (the films) that they wouldn't at least be a tad bit curious.

Then, from strictly a business perspective, if I were him, I would want, at bare minimum, 6 month reports that said at least "It's doing ok, SOE's still making a profit, we're getting paid and they want to keep the license another year after its up."

Hey, that's me, and I'm not him.

Read this.

Let me know when you get to this quote:

LUCAS: "I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions."