I was not saying top end is not a grind, just explaining why it has to be, there is little escape from that reward/gain scenario.

The whole "process of discovering" being the key to entertainment reforces my theory about how Linear games destroyed the genre (the fun of the genre).

Thats why Sandbox games as opposed to Linear games are the salvation of the genre.

both are technically defined as grinds. There was a faction grind in WoW too. By the way grind in the first place in my view:
*is when you're doing something which is no longer fun but is requested by the game to get the next achievement or reward or whatever.
*or is simply a treadmill. Which if the gameplay is good enough, though it can be defined 'grindy' in the way of Gunzonline it isn't in the same way as (1)

Originally posted by Interesting

The whole "process of discovering" being the key to entertainment reforces my theory about how Linear games destroyed the genre (the fun of the genre).

 

Thats why Sandbox games as opposed to Linear games are the salvation of the genre.

What's a sandbox without tools?

But yes, the game itself needs to be based on a non-linear premise. Neutral purpose. A sandbox.

But the tools inside the sandbox need to be multifaceted. Characters and their equipment are tools. Quests are tools. Monsters are tools. Etc.

They [the tools] need to have more than one use and perspective, or the game will fall flat and linear. The more dimensions every tool has, the more fun can be had as there are more possible gameplay variations to explore.

A lot of games already do this to some degree, but they lock the tools into linear modes. Your character, for instance, can have multiple uses on the surface, but the modes they're in are only designed to fit one role: you're a rogue or a warrior or a nuke or something. You can't use your tools in creative ways because they were made for only one purpose - they're one-trick ponies.

This formulaic approach to "player optimization" has destroyed this genre. There is a "best," and so the game goes from allowing players to be curious and freely explore possibilities to forcing them into a dogma: "this is correct, nothing else is."

I say we take the neutral concept religion is based on (the infinite curiosity bit) and make... a science! But that doesn't work, they're both not-so-entertaining. Science hides nothing, but is expandable. So we can't copy that for entertainment since it's not a trick (and we can't copy what isn't yet observed). Religion hides as much as possible, but is not expandable. So we can't copy that, either, since it's not explorable for those involved.

I guess we should just take the two parts that work (expandability with hidden stuff) and make a ... uh... Sciligion?

Speaking of religion, isn't that what WoW is now? A dogma? You must have faith that your gear will drop if you do dungeon runs. And when you get your best-in-slot gear, you can move up in the holy order and be admitted into high-end raid guilds with the most exalted leaders, who ensure that everyone knows the doctrine of Tank and Spank and the ancient ways of "defeating boss #335 in less than 15 minutes for a hidden 20% damage buff required to take down the final boss with 5 people."

So what's a sandbox without multi-use tools? "Make sandcastles in your sandbox, but only do it this way."

It's not fun when all you have for tools are jello molds.

Originally posted by observer

Grinding in an MMO is the repetitive process of staying in a spot, or area, and killing the same NPCs until you reach the next level(s).

It reallys annoys me when people try to apply grinding to questing and farming.  There is a difference.

I'd rather grind in one spot then go pick up ten quests, do em, pick up 10 more.  Ugh, makes me so darn annoyed.  Give me a few real quests, and I'll just grind the rest out.  The mob grind's at least less annoying than the quest grind.

Well the true "tools" of a game are the microbial things you do.  The Fireballs, Snares, and Charges.

And such tools shouldn't be complicated individually.  The most long-lived games of all time (like Chess and Go) have extremely simple rules governing the abilities of each tool at your disposal.  The depth of the game comes not from any single tool being complex, but from the net result of many simple tools being combined in deep and interesting ways.

Viewing the character as a whole as a single tool entity is a rather unusual take on things, and I'm not sure what useful conclusions can be drawn by viewing things that way.

Typically the concepts you described are referred to as Game Depth.  Game Depth being whether a game is still strategically interesting to play after expert players have studied and practiced it for years, decades, or centuries.  You basically want the overall gameplay pattern to remain interesting even after investing a lot of time into the game -- if things are too simplistic, the game will be easily "solved" and quickly cease to be interesting.

For that reason, the pattern which results from combining all these simple tools should be complex enough that it's not easily solved. 

(edit: stupid ' bug -.-)

I once saw this puzzle. It had a bunch of slots for balls in an enclosed case that you could see partly through. I messed around with it for 10 minutes or so, trying to get the balls all in the right place, but the problem was, every time you'd tilt the case, the other balls would fall out. One of the employees at the shop saw me messing around with it, smiled and took another one... set it down on a ledge, and spun the case around like a top. It forced all the balls to the side of the case, and locked all the balls into place. "Ooooooh, ok!" And I duplicated the same thing once I understood how to actually solve the puzzle. I've seen a few puzzles similar, but different in look and style to that one I saw at the shop in my lifetime, and the answer to them is always the same.

Maybe that's the problem. Once you figure out the "trick" it's no longer magical, or an engrossing experience. You see through the smoke and mirrors and know how the gears work. There's no more "magical awe" to be had. We know how the systems work, and after years of similar systems, it's all old hat.

I don't think that either A. or B. works... unless the people playing it are still enjoying the "magic show" so to speak. I hated classic EQ grinding because it was very tedious, boring, and punishing, but loved playing City of Heroes. Personally, the CoX system was more fun in how it worked for me.

I hated camping items in EQ, because specific items were always tied to specific mobs. I loved item hunting in WoW, because of the variety, and a lot of rare loot were world drops, or dropped off of certain groups of mobs, not just off of one specific mob.

Personally, it all depends on how well of a job the game uses the "smoke and mirrors" to occupy me from realizing the man behind the curtain.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Well the true "tools" of a game are the microbial things you do.  The Fireballs, Snares, and Charges.

And such tools shouldn't be complicated individually.  The most long-lived games of all time (like Chess and Go) have extremely simple rules governing the abilities of each tool at your disposal.  The depth of the game comes not from any single tool being complex, but from the net result of many simple tools being combined in deep and interesting ways.

Viewing the character as a whole as a single tool entity is a rather unusual take on things, and I'm not sure what useful conclusions can be drawn by viewing things that way.

Typically the concepts you described are referred to as Game Depth.  Game Depth being whether a game is still strategically interesting to play after expert players have studied and practiced it for years, decades, or centuries.  You basically want the overall gameplay pattern to remain interesting even after investing a lot of time into the game -- if things are too simplistic, the game will be easily "solved" and quickly cease to be interesting.

For that reason, the pattern which results from combining all these simple tools should be complex enough that it's not easily solved. 

(edit: stupid ' bug -.-)

I think the best example we have of multifaceted, non-linear tools right now are the character creation bits. The parts where you have full creative control over a high degree of the parts.

Think of it this way: 3DS Max / Maya or AutoCAD, etc. are the like ultimate multi-tools in the digital realm. We've been trying to make tools that are more like them, but also more user-friendly, for our games. It's a step in the right direction, but I think we can do better.

Non-linear problems are not the same as linear ones. You can't just say "do this and get candy," because the driving force is no longer to innovate or explore; it is to get the candy. And since non-linear problems are usually more complex, the reward is rarely worth the effort.

When you want a non-linear problem solved, you give them a different motivation.

Here are a few choice TED Talks you might be interested in: Optical Illusions, Non-linear Motivation, Creativity - IDEO.

Also look on there for Will Wright's talk about toys. Very relevant to the objective of non-linear game design, even though the final product didn't deliver the intended experience.

Originally posted by Lansid

Maybe that's the problem. Once you figure out the "trick" it's no longer magical, or an engrossing experience. You see through the smoke and mirrors and know how the gears work. There's no more "magical awe" to be had. We know how the systems work, and after years of similar systems, it's all old hat.

That's part of the problem, yes.

Hey OP, you still there?

Did you got satisfied with the repplies?

Originally posted by Cephus404

I hate them both.  I don't want to have to do the same repetitive nonsense over and over no matter what the carrot is.  If I can't stomach it, I stop playing and that's the problem with most games.  The trick to having a non-grindy grind is to have a massive number of different things to do so that every time you log on, your experience is different.  If you're just doing the same thing, going on the same quests, killing the same monsters over and over and over, why bother?

That's why WoW has conquered ALL. There's so much you can do in the game.

If you don't like grinding, stop playing MMOrpgs.

The reason simply being that people want to play MMOs for hundreds of hours.  It is impossible for developers to make endless, changing content.  Those that try end up with a game with about 40-50 hours of Fed-ex quests that would make you stop playing after 5mins if it was a single player game.

If you don't like grind and have to have instant satisfaction the only online games you can ever be satisfied with are FPS games like Counter-strike, Planetside, Battlefield, etc.

MMOs have to focus on other rewards besides new experiences.  Achieving results through hard work, team work and research are how MMOs achieve longevity, not endless content.

Grind is a state of mind. If you are enjoying what you are doing, it isn't a grind.

I love my job and go to work everyday. It does not feel like a grind to me. I know others who hate their job and its a grind to them.

The same is true with MMO's. I love doing quests and exploring so it doesn't feel like a grind. Raiding, I hate and does.

Its all about the players perception and approach.

Originally posted by Arezon

Originally posted by Cephus404

I hate them both.  I don't want to have to do the same repetitive nonsense over and over no matter what the carrot is.  If I can't stomach it, I stop playing and that's the problem with most games.  The trick to having a non-grindy grind is to have a massive number of different things to do so that every time you log on, your experience is different.  If you're just doing the same thing, going on the same quests, killing the same monsters over and over and over, why bother?

 

That's why WoW has conquered ALL. There's so much you can do in the game.

Yeah, you can kill level 10 boars, level 20 boars, level 30 boars, level 40 boars, etc.

Or you can run dungeons and instances 35-75 times to get your next level of gear.

Or you can fight in warsong gulch and capture the flag for the 4500th time.

Don't kid yourself, WOW has the same grind as any other game.

What you can't do is really affect the game world and control anything. 

Which is its single greatest failing.

One man's grind is another man's questing.  In EVE we grind for ISK, in a variety of ways to be sure, but in the end, its all a grind.  Just a matter of how you prefer it.

Because you have to grind levels countlessly day after day, month after month to get to the games max level. Items on the other hand might take you 1-3 days grinding to get it, and after that you never have to grind for it again unless for profit.

y?

If you don't like to grind. MMORPG is not the genre for you. period.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Arezon

Originally posted by Cephus404

I hate them both.  I don't want to have to do the same repetitive nonsense over and over no matter what the carrot is.  If I can't stomach it, I stop playing and that's the problem with most games.  The trick to having a non-grindy grind is to have a massive number of different things to do so that every time you log on, your experience is different.  If you're just doing the same thing, going on the same quests, killing the same monsters over and over and over, why bother?

 

That's why WoW has conquered ALL. There's so much you can do in the game.

 

Yeah, you can kill level 10 boars, level 20 boars, level 30 boars, level 40 boars, etc.

Or you can run dungeons and instances 35-75 times to get your next level of gear.

Or you can fight in warsong gulch and capture the flag for the 4500th time.

Don't kid yourself, WOW has the same grind as any other game.

What you can't do is really affect the game world and control anything. 

Which is its single greatest failing.

One man's grind is another man's questing.  In EVE we grind for ISK, in a variety of ways to be sure, but in the end, its all a grind.  Just a matter of how you prefer it.

 

Remember, just playing a MMO isn't a grind.  Its only a grind, if it feels like a grind.  WOW"s gameplay is just more varied and enjoyable than other games.  Its not as tedious.  A lot of it has to do with the zone design, the character designs, smooth controls, the quest variety, the immersion.  There's a big, BIG difference in leveling up in WOW compared to old EQ, or DAOC, or even WAR and other newer MMOs that tried to copy the formula.  TRY is the important point.

Saying WOW's grind is like every other game indicates a gross lack of understanding of the myriad ways they vary gameplay.

WOW's variety isn't infinite.  It doesn't have to be.  It simply has to be more varied than other games.  And thus less grindy.

At least in WOW the grind requires you to be at the computer almost constantly.  It feels like 60% of my gameplay in EVE is spent traveling, where I could basically walk away from the computer (or more accurately I tend to spend the time browsing forums, videos, or playing H&H on the 2nd monitor.)

I dunno.  Despite EVE's combat seeming a little auto-attack heavy so far (possibly because I don't understand the intricacies; or because the intricacies are nonexistant in PVE combat) I do like the feel of the combat.  I just wish EVE would let me do that a lot, instead of trickling it out to me as 40% of my overall gameplay experience.

interesting replies on this thread but a point to be said is that fps games- when you exhaust pattern-forming in these are still fun despite being primarily the same content.

Originally posted by spades07

interesting replies on this thread but a point to be said is that fps games- when you exhaust pattern-forming in these are still fun despite being primarily the same content.

Well that's not exactly true.  FPS do get old at some point.

But the reason they stay interesting longer is that you never perfectly figure out the pattern.  At a very basic zoomed-out level, you figure out the pattern: shoot stuff, it dies.  Even at a more zoomed level, you figure out the pattern: they're fielding Heavies, so switch to Sniper and Headshot.  But the pattern you never quite figure out is the "move my mouse 1.5mm to the left to perfectly nail that headshot on the Heavy who's jumping around."   The precise details like that are important and because they matter (ie because you'll miss the shot without moving 1.5mm to the left) they are interesting.

These different levels of "pattern zoom" exist in every game.  Even in MMORPGs.  But probably the reason the detailed zoom feels less important is that in a competitive game it's "Kill or Be Killed" whereas in a MMORPG it's "Kill or Kill Slower."  And a majority of players don't mind (or possibly even notice) when they're killing slower...whereas players tend to notice when they're killed.

One solution (because "only make PVP MMORPGs" isn't reasonable) is to drastically improve the difficulty and reward scaling of MMORPGs.  Complete the dungeon in 30 minutes, get 200 gold.  Do it in 29 minutes, get 215 gold.  And so on - basically make it so each incremental improvement in player skill truly matters.  (of course solving this problem in isolation of the potential social ramifications probably isn't wise; plenty of elitism happens already in games, without making the best player rewards contingent on your entire group being skilled.)

Originally posted by Caleveira

Originally posted by zaxxon23

Probably because with b) you get phat lootz.  That being said I dislike b) even more than a).

 

THIS

You usually get to choose if you want to b) but not a), hows the survey going btw? Are you doing demographics as well?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA...LMAO at demographics

Originally posted by Quirhid

Isn't killing mobs for gold and loot called "farming"?

I move for a petition to change the term farming to ranching. Farming creatures doesn't sound right.

---

Originally posted by Axehilt

One solution (because "only make PVP MMORPGs" isn't reasonable) is to drastically improve the difficulty and reward scaling of MMORPGs.  Complete the dungeon in 30 minutes, get 200 gold.  Do it in 29 minutes, get 215 gold.  And so on - basically make it so each incremental improvement in player skill truly matters.  (of course solving this problem in isolation of the potential social ramifications probably isn't wise; plenty of elitism happens already in games, without making the best player rewards contingent on your entire group being skilled.)

---

I'm going to disagree on the pattern-forming thing with mmos- I think it is very valid, but it's not just that. I do like this idea of the skill-based approach to completing dungeons- that might be a nice addition to some mmos. I think it would be good for a mmo outside of WoW to think outside the box and adopt ideas like this.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by spades07

interesting replies on this thread but a point to be said is that fps games- when you exhaust pattern-forming in these are still fun despite being primarily the same content.

 

Well that's not exactly true.  FPS do get old at some point.

But the reason they stay interesting longer is that you never perfectly figure out the pattern.  At a very basic zoomed-out level, you figure out the pattern: shoot stuff, it dies.  Even at a more zoomed level, you figure out the pattern: they're fielding Heavies, so switch to Sniper and Headshot.  But the pattern you never quite figure out is the "move my mouse 1.5mm to the left to perfectly nail that headshot on the Heavy who's jumping around."   The precise details like that are important and because they matter (ie because you'll miss the shot without moving 1.5mm to the left) they are interesting.

These different levels of "pattern zoom" exist in every game.  Even in MMORPGs.  But probably the reason the detailed zoom feels less important is that in a competitive game it's "Kill or Be Killed" whereas in a MMORPG it's "Kill or Kill Slower."  And a majority of players don't mind (or possibly even notice) when they're killing slower...whereas players tend to notice when they're killed.

One solution (because "only make PVP MMORPGs" isn't reasonable) is to drastically improve the difficulty and reward scaling of MMORPGs.  Complete the dungeon in 30 minutes, get 200 gold.  Do it in 29 minutes, get 215 gold.  And so on - basically make it so each incremental improvement in player skill truly matters.  (of course solving this problem in isolation of the potential social ramifications probably isn't wise; plenty of elitism happens already in games, without making the best player rewards contingent on your entire group being skilled.)

Yeah, it seems for some if you kill the same mob twice, its suddenly a grind.  Hard to reason with that kind of logic=)  Its the same logic that leads to comments like "WOW is just like EQ or Aion is just like WOW".  Yes, when you zoom out, they're similar, but when you zoom in and really examine all the different elements that form the MMO whole, the differences are much greater.