Simple question but read on before polling plz!!!

When I say 'challenging' I'm refering to something like the Achievements of WoW except doing the feat would be part of the story/quest/progression of the game or character. For those unfamiliar, Achievements were little stamps you got for completing a dungeon under certain conditions oftentimes making it incredibly difficult. For instance beating a dungeon in a certain amount of time or beating it with less than the maximum amount of players. Ya I know difficulty is relative and life is subjective and blah blah just answer the stupid question.

I'm curious only because now that I look back on it I think the most PvE fun i've ever had in an MMO was in WoW when they introduced a quest to beat a dungeon in under 45 minutes. No It wasn't the same as achievements because my friends actually wanted to face up to the challenge because there were actual rewards attached (and by a design standpoint it wasn't something to do AFTER you max your gear... it was something to do to in order to GET certain gear thus making it mean significantly more).

anyways what ya think?

Originally posted by sneef

 

anyways what ya think?

MMOs generally have no challenge...just grind being confused as a challenge...=/

One of my proudest (gaming related) moments was beating the Rapid Defense achievement in WoW; I was the first in our guild to manage it.

I actually got a round of applause on our guild vent server for it too.

I love stuff like that; rewarding exceptional achievement without excluding the masses from the basic content. Meaningless though WoW's achievements generally are (save for those with titles and item rewards, of course) some of them act as a de facto difficulty setting in a genre that has never had one.

Hey its sparse but its there! Everynow and then theres an awesome quest that makes you do something interesting and challenging that doesnt involve killing 10 Grub beasts or collecting eyeballs.

I used to think dungeons were challenging until I realized the difficulty is really only in finding and maintaining competant players to party with.

Originally posted by Jackio81

Originally posted by sneef

 

anyways what ya think?

 

MMOs generally have no challenge...just grind being confused as a challenge...=/

Beating a dungeon in a specific amount of time isn't a grind.  It actually is a legitimate challenge.

 Looking at the popularity of WoW, this poll is a massive lie, or people are playing the wrong game. 

That being said, I wish there were more games that actually told the whiners to screw off and kept to their guns and made a game where your achievements actually mean something because they take some measure of actual effort. Hasn't been one in a long time. Hell, even the meager efforts required in Aion to do things to make them worth while are being QQ'd about. 

Everyone has a different definition for challenging content, but yes I do enjoy a challenge. I loved old world raiding in EQ where you had to have 5 clerics in a CH rotation and one mistake would wipe the entire raid. I recently quit WoW again because they have gradually removed all challenge in order to make the game accessible to everyone.

Darkfall has challenge

just got it today

first quest, died twice, ran away 10 times. doesnt get as rough as that

 Yeah i love challenge. If there is no challenge, the victory isn't so sweet.

Yea I enjoy challenge and thats why I like DDO...

In most MMOs challenge is just time sinks and the ones who can grind the most get the best stuff.... DDO is different.

Challenge is one of the root reasons people play games.  Of course the overlooked thing in discussions like this is that "challenging" is different for each player.

My friends and I were doing sub-45 min runs of Stratholme before the quest even came out, so while it was great to get a specific reward for doing it it wasn't even that great a challenge.  But I know a lot of players where 45 mins was completely beyond them, and they were nothing but frustrated by the challenge.

Basically more MMORPGs need to adapt COH's amazing difficulty-scaling (where fighting tougher mobs actually meant superior progression speed, and where you had a ton of control of exactly how tough the mobs you faced were.)

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Originally posted by Murashu
Everyone has a different definition for challenging content, but yes I do enjoy a challenge. I loved old world raiding in EQ where you had to have 5 clerics in a CH rotation and one mistake would wipe the entire raid. I recently quit WoW again because they have gradually removed all challenge in order to make the game accessible to everyone.

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Just because the game is accessible to everyone does not mean there is no challenge.

Originally posted by Xiaoki

 

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Originally posted by Murashu
Everyone has a different definition for challenging content, but yes I do enjoy a challenge. I loved old world raiding in EQ where you had to have 5 clerics in a CH rotation and one mistake would wipe the entire raid. I recently quit WoW again because they have gradually removed all challenge in order to make the game accessible to everyone.

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So, you found Yogg 25 +0 keepers, Algalon 25 and Heroic Anub'arak 25 too easy?

 

Just because the game is accessible to everyone does not mean there is no challenge.

Dude, to the average MMO player that has played any sort of old-school MMO in it's heyday or any sort of open-ended MMO, WoW could be soloed with little work involved, in comparison.

I've left WoW 3 times after being dragged back in by different people due to lack of pretty much any challenge.

 yep op i love everquest 1

I find it challenging to meet good players who are nice and fun to hang out with.

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Originally posted by johnmatthais

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Originally posted by Xiaoki

 

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Originally posted by Murashu
Everyone has a different definition for challenging content, but yes I do enjoy a challenge. I loved old world raiding in EQ where you had to have 5 clerics in a CH rotation and one mistake would wipe the entire raid. I recently quit WoW again because they have gradually removed all challenge in order to make the game accessible to everyone.

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So, you found Yogg 25 +0 keepers, Algalon 25 and Heroic Anub'arak 25 too easy?
 
Just because the game is accessible to everyone does not mean there is no challenge.

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Dude, to the average MMO player that has played any sort of old-school MMO in it's heyday or any sort of open-ended MMO, WoW could be soloed with little work involved, in comparison.
I've left WoW 3 times after being dragged back in by different people due to lack of pretty much any challenge.

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Whooo boy, talk about delusional.

Theres not really any challenge anymore. Once you play game long enough you tend to get better at it, as does your strategys. So once youve adapted enough theres not really anything challenging. The only "challenge" is to be able to actually sit there and put that much time into it.

I'm satisfied to just have my character reach the max level.

Challenging? Yes. Tedious? No.

Originally posted by Xiaoki

 

So, you found Yogg 25 +0 keepers, Algalon 25 and Heroic Anub'arak 25 too easy?

 

Just because the game is accessible to everyone does not mean there is no challenge.

To a certain degree, yes they are easy. As I said before, we have different definitions for challenge. I do not find fights that make me run around a room avoiding waves of fire and acid challenging. I don't find phasing in and out of different chambers at set times challenging. WoW raids have become complicated, but not the type of challenge I enjoy. The type of challenge I am talking about is knowing your class, abilities, gear and how to use all of them. The type of challenge that as a tank I have to balance DPS and mitigation while trying to maintain threat. In WoW the more DPS I do, the more my threat increases so locking down a mob is a no-brainer. I want to fight mobs that hit so hard and fast that one missed heal means a dead tank. I miss the days when the healers needed their own chat channel to coordinate rotations and for calling out heals so two people werent healing the same person. Most fights today just require the healers to stack on multiple HoTs so theres never really a chance of missing a heal. Group heals used to be very situational but now many classes have them which takes a large load off the dedicated healers. Ive seen our Paladin MT consistently hitting 3rd highest healer while tanking.

Im not saying every boss is a cake walk but when we wipe, its not because someone wasnt good at their class/role, we wipe because someone doesnt know to run left or right at a certain stage in the encounter. As I said before, these encounters have become complicated but in no way do I feel that they are pushing me to the limits of my class abilities.

I love this experience: You free roam anywhere and try things out and learn by experience.

Eventually you find an frightening enemy, you try to fight it, but you get some beatings and have to fall back, for now.

You keep playing, eventually your character progress and become stronger. Later on you find that same frightening you found in the past and challenge it again, this time the situation is different and you are no longer the weakling from before and ends up defeating the enemy.

it happened many times, you group up with some friends and try to beat that cool boss in that dungeon.

You guys struggle for a long time, wasting lots of potions and trying different combination of skills and have a hard time on it.

Then, weeks later, you guys go there again and manage to defeat that boss without so much hassle.

Due to the permanent ever living characteristic of massively multiplayer online role playing games, and due to the long term character progression and freedom of exploration and non linearity limitations, you might face different levels of challenges/difficulties, but due to the same characteristics mentioned, after a certain time and effort spent and vertical character progress, those challenges are relativized by your new found power.

I hate when games auto balance everything to your level in an hypocrite attempt to maintain the same level of challenge/difficulty.

I love when the game emulates a certain degree of realism that embraces the notion that your character evolved with the story, thus becoming more experienced and powerfull.

The whole idea is to go back to older activities that once seemed impossible, only to feel gratified and realize what have you achieved, how have you progressed. The notion of evolution.

Thats the type of challenge I enjoy.

Not something that is always the same, imutable, permanent level of difficulty (such as when games have "end game" content, "end game" bosses" and "level caps" or any kind of "power cap"), no matter what you do.

I like when you can work around, spend time and effort, evolve, prepare and try again, it will make it easier, but the satisfaction you get is the same, it is still you playing, it still the same character, because you/your character grew up to face the challenge.

The way in wich the character progress doesnt matter too much, what matters most is the feeling of overcoming "challenges" with the acquisition of more power.

I hate when games put you in a position where you HAVE TO DEFEAT SOMETHING AT YOUR "LEVEL" in a failed attempt to ressemble any challenges. I also hate when games create content for determined levels, or for the "max level" characters.

Its pretty stupid when they finally decide to "raise the level cap" and try to justify it with the "we want to make it more challenging".

To me it doesnt matter, the key to success in massivelly multiplayer games, permanent ever growing worlds, and character progression is time and effort, you relativize any subjective notion of challenge by evolving your character. Thats good enough for me. Anything different and its artificial, non realistic, too linear, without any ressemblance of notion of freedom.

I, myself, go a step further and would love to see more 'invincible' bosses like a few in FFXI though perhaps world-roaming instead of in a dungeon.  Something so that, when people have their new gear and their new tricks, they can go and test them against the 'invincible' creature.  Eventually it would be defeated, of course, but hopefully not for quite a while.  That sort of thing interests me.

It doesnt matter how invincible you make a creature, or how challenging a certain enemy or area is AS LONG AS YOUR CHARACTER CAN PROGRESS INFINITELLY AS WELL.

At one point your character will be strong enough, because he keeps evolving. And thats the sweetest thing, when your surpass the curve of power for something that once before was a "challenge" (due to being way below the necessary curve of power).

Originally posted by Axehilt

Challenge is one of the root reasons people play games.  Of course the overlooked thing in discussions like this is that "challenging" is different for each player.

My friends and I were doing sub-45 min runs of Stratholme before the quest even came out, so while it was great to get a specific reward for doing it it wasn't even that great a challenge.  But I know a lot of players where 45 mins was completely beyond them, and they were nothing but frustrated by the challenge.

Basically more MMORPGs need to adapt COH's amazing difficulty-scaling (where fighting tougher mobs actually meant superior progression speed, and where you had a ton of control of exactly how tough the mobs you faced were.)

wow haha ya it definitely looks like a challenge is interpreted different by just about everyone. For me the 45 minute runs were fun because me an my friends weren't big raiders and thus didnt have great gear making it hard for us and you definitely couldn't go in there with just any pug. So we would go in and get close and find things to make our run faster, see what mobs we could skip potion/armor/class combos were always being evaluated to make things better. Then once we got it we would train the 'lesser' players of the guild which was great because you could see all the skill (or lack of skill) in each individual person. Epic moments of one guy saving the run at the very end or 3/4 manning the last boss after some cocky foul up were great feelings that are rarely achieved in raids. It was also very personable which is something I see lost in a raiding environment.

Don't get me wrong raids can be challenging too I'm not against em even though I don't particular enjoy them, I'm just saying I wish there were more interesting challenges akin to the achievement system especially in earlier parts of the game. It just seems like there is little incentive to be a good player up until you start raiding and then grouping becomes the only way to progress your character which seems a little bogus to me and I only say that because it allows shitty players bassically to leech off of good ones.

Most people like to believe they are above average.