THIS IS A FAIRLY LONG POST SORRY IF IT WASTES YOUR TIME IT IS PURELY OF MY OWN OPINION AND IS NOT TO INSULT ANYONE BUT JUST WHAT I WOULD LIKE

I notice one key thing alot of people are arguing over recently and it is grinding.

IMO im not a huge fan some weeks ill hardcore play a game and other weeks im casual.

The only issue i find with that is the people i meet and befriend tend to zoom off ahead of me and our level gap is too big then to party. resulting in me mainly soloing games(or atleast trying to)

The way i feel for game developers to get around this is remove levels and run on a skill based.

If you go on the diversity of skills available like on SWG pre-CU and you gain xp for various different things you do.(ie kill enemy gain xp in the weapon you used and general xp or scouting quest gain scouting xp and general xp)

Now obviously that alone wont remove grinding but its putting us in the right direction what you would need next is when you do gain a tier in a certain skill the bonus attributes arent massive.

I.E on a level based game LVL10 - LVL11 = lvl11's strength is increased by 12 which means they cause more damage they also can equip a better weapon again cause more damage thus making the damage difference between 10 and 11 too great.

I.E skill based Sword tier 2 - tier 3 = tier 3 gains strong stance ability which increases defence by 1% of base stat

now altho tier 3 does have an increased defence stat its not a massive gap.

Next is base xp on the task at hand

so if you fight say monster with someone whose a couple of tiers above you on their weapon they use which may result in them causing slightly more damage they get xp based upon the damage they caused.

I.E Player 1 causes 400points of damage in total Player 2 causes 600 points of damage in total resulting in a 40 - 60 share

Now with healing classes they gain xp based upon how much they heal.

I understand tiers are like levels but they are not there to create divides. A tier 3 swordsman does not know im tier 2 through sight, where as a lvl15 would know im not lvl10 and not want to party due to me holding them back.

This enables us to party and socialise with whoever we want and not have situations where were waiting for people of the same level to kill so called monster.

Now this is more towards the PVE crowds and less towards the PVP altho you can tie pvp elements into it this way if your a 2hr new starter you could go into a mass battle and your not just going to get killed over and over again. due to someone whose put 10x as much gameplay in is not massively higher in stats and kills you in one swipe.

Thank you for your time and i look forward to anyones inputs on what they think is good or bad towards it.

 I had a friend run this idea through his A.I. Supercomputer, here is what it thought.

"A strange genre. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?"

You seem to be confused as to what grind actually means.

That said, it's not that bad of an idea, but no, it won't eliminate the grind.

If you want a non-linear problem solved, state the problem and find as many different solutions as you can. THEN get specific.

You're going into way too much detail on just one idea.

So try to come up with as many solutions as you can.

This one probably won't work.

The "grind" will never be removed from any game that has characters that level and progress through the world. There will always be money to earn, experience to gain, skills to raise and items to obtain. As long as you have at least one "resource" that your character will need there will always be a grind.

Personally I like earning money. I really, and I mean REALLY, love skill-based leveling (hit Elf with sword, sword skill raised to 2 from 1, etc) a la Elder Scrolls. I don't consider those a grind, but more a necessity to get from point A to point B.

I also only consider something a grind if I do not enjoy doing it in the game. If it feels like I am working it is a grind. If it feels like I am lost in the woods with only 6 arrows left and a festering wound it is totally not a grind...

Classless character development does not remove grind because skill-grind is still grind. Furthermore it makes using macros and such very appealing to "level up" faster.

Also your system for distributing xp according to damage dealt or amount healed does discriminate all utility skills/classes which usually bring much needed twists to otherwise linear combat.

No - I don't like it.

 I think the only real way to eliminate the grind, at least from the normal (non -core/casual type) player's perspective, would be to somehow make the journey enjoyable. But with modern MMOs... Yeah.

Originally posted by Goronian

The only real way to eliminate the grind would be to somehow make the journey enjoyable.

Welcome to the world of non-linear design. Something only a handful of people on this planet understand, and they all prefer to stay away from the video game industry.

I don't wonder why.

Originally posted by Plasuma!!!

Originally posted by Goronian

The only real way to eliminate the grind would be to somehow make the journey enjoyable.

Welcome to the world of non-linear design. Something only a handful of people on this planet understand, and they all prefer to stay away from the video game industry.

 

I don't wonder why.

Linear can't be enjoyable?

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by Plasuma!!!

Originally posted by Goronian

The only real way to eliminate the grind would be to somehow make the journey enjoyable.

Welcome to the world of non-linear design. Something only a handful of people on this planet understand, and they all prefer to stay away from the video game industry.

 

I don't wonder why.

Linear can't be enjoyable?

Linear is a line. Illustrated thusly:

O-----------------O

It has a beginning and an end. It has a direct path to that end which cannot be strayed from. It is probably entertaining from the beginning to the end. But never again - unless you missed some details and have to re-experience it.

An example would be a movie or a book. In life, linear problems are not fun to solve because you want the outcome, not the experience of getting it. Chasing a carrot, you miss the detail of everything around you.

You are a horse with blinders when solving a linear problem - efficient and direct.

Function of linearity: There is a carrot (reward). You want the carrot out of a desire to become better at something (mastery). The reason for which was because you were told to do so (purpose, there is no autonomy).

The cycle breaks there unless there's another carrot presented.

Non-linear is anything. Illustrated by whatever you're thinking of right now.

It has a beginning, but no definite end. There is no path to follow. It is entertaining for as long as you can think and experience.

An example would be a hobby.

Function of Non-Linearity: The carrots you chase are of your own creation (autonomy). You chase the carrots out of curiosity and a desire to get better at something (mastery). The reason for which was not because you were commanded to obey, but because you wanted to do it (purpose -> back to autonomy).

It's a self-perpetuating cycle. The autonomy is the key and the mystery.

Both are enjoyable, however linear things tend to be boring after they're experienced, and non-linear things can be entertaining for the duration of your existence.

Originally posted by Plasuma!!!

Originally posted by Goronian

The only real way to eliminate the grind would be to somehow make the journey enjoyable.

Welcome to the world of non-linear design. Something only a handful of people on this planet understand, and they all prefer to stay away from the video game industry.

 

I don't wonder why.

The way I see it, modern MMOs work on pure wow-impulse - known IPs, pretty graphics, 23 gajillion classes, promises of raiding, PVP and the like. And none of the devs stop and actually try to fill the world with gameplay, not content, GAMEPLAY. Nearly all of them present you with the same game, wrapped in different packages, made to look, like you're enjoying it, rather than simply making it enjoyable.

There is no depth in classes (or even skill-based systems) - all of them are just pigeon-holed in familiar mindsets, with some being Jacks-of-all-trades. There is nothing to explore - everyone has seen everythig, knows how to do everything and can pretty much do it without a big of a fuss. There is no real sense of danger, or amazement, or wonder. You don't care about your death, and can pretty much zerg anything that looks at you funny. Crafting is always a joke, roleplay is either non-existent or extremely limited, lore is half-arsed. But it's pretty and has raiding, so I guess it's okay.

The genre has evolved, surely. Just instead of becoming a human it became a dinosaur.

Originally posted by Plasuma!!!

 Linear is a line. Illustrated thusly:

O-----------------O

It has a beginning and an end. It has a direct path to that end which cannot be strayed from. It is probably entertaining from the beginning to the end. But never again - unless you missed some details and have to re-experience it.

An example would be a movie or a book. In life, linear problems are not fun to solve because you want the outcome, not the experience of getting it. Chasing a carrot, you miss the detail of everything around you.

You are a blinded horse when solving a linear problem - efficient and direct. You want the carrot because more is better. You work as hard and fast as you can to solve the problems given. And the carrot will eventually be given to you if you do a good job. And the cycle breaks there unless there's another carrot.

 

Non-linear is anything. Illustrated by whatever you're thinking of right now.

It has a beginning, but no definite end. There is no path to follow. It is entertaining for as long as you can think and experience.

An example would be life itself. The carrots you chase are of your own creation, so your fun is self-perpetuating (autonomy). The carrots you create are out of curiosity and a desire to get better at something (mastery). The reason for which was not because you were commanded to obey, but because you wanted to do it (purpose -> back to autonomy).

It's a self-perpetuating cycle.

Both are enjoyable, however linear things tend to be boring after they're experienced, and non-linear things can be entertaining for the duration of your existence.

I understand what you mean, it makes sense. Can non-lnear be enjoyable for those who want to see the outcome too, though? 

The problem of 'chasing the carrot' exists as you describe it, but it depends on the person if they can break free of that chain. People may think that chasing the carrot is the point of the whole problem, but if they realize that the road to the solution is the most important thing, it's not an issue anymore.

I myself am a fan of linear progression, but as you said, when it's done once it can never be repeated without it feeling like the 'same old'. I don't think there's only one way to go at it though, there are a lot of things you can change to make it 'new' again (like the leveling system or combat, when it comes to MMO's). It's like saying, there are not just a single line to go through but multiple ones, which each offer a different experience although a linear one.

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by Plasuma!!!

 Cut

I understand what you mean, it makes sense. Can non-lnear be enjoyable for those who want to see the outcome too, though? 

The problem of 'chasing the carrot' exists as you describe it, but it depends on the person if they can break free of that chain. People may think that chasing the carrot is the point of the whole problem, but if they realize that the road to the solution is the most important thing, it's not an issue anymore.

I myself am a fan of linear progression, but as you said, when it's done once it can never be repeated without it feeling like the 'same old'. I don't think there's only one way to go at it though, there are a lot of things you can change to make it 'new' again (like the leveling system or combat, when it comes to MMO's). It's like saying, there are not just a single line to go through but multiple ones, which each offer a different experience although a linear one.

If you ask me, there's nothing bad with linear progression whatsoever.

However. MMORPG is probably the single worst genre for it. See, in single-player games there are things to make it enjoyable - the story, the gameplay, what have you. And they tend to be much shorter, thus not outstaying their welcome.

In MMORPGs, you don't have such things, making it extremely shallow, repetetive and drawn out. The only things, that keep people in are other people and carrots-on-a-stick, artifically prolonging the gameplay. 

Non-linear prgoression, on the other hand, would change things, making players responsible for their own enjoyment, thus, potentially, crating an unlimited supply of it. But those are much harder to make, so I doubt we'll see them anytime soon.

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by Plasuma!!!

Stuff

I understand what you mean, it makes sense. Can non-linear be enjoyable for those who want to see the outcome too, though?

The outcome is what you want it to be. Think of it like a hobby: why do you do it?

Wood carving, sculpting, writing, composing music, programming, rock-climbing, exploring, etc.

What we have done in games is create a simulation of this input-output process: you start making a wood carving... you are making a wood carving and will be done in 30 seconds... you finish.

It's a generic wood carving. You put it in your generic backpack, which somebody made through the same process.

The end result matters to you in a "chase a carrot" kind of way. The 30 second wait was an inconvenience, and the final product is just a product. Probably something you needed for a quest or could sell for money.

Now what if you were given a tool that allowed you to design what the wood carving looked like?

Process: you start making a wood carving... a 3D modeling interface opens and you get to work... you finish eventually.

The end result matters to you in a "this is my work" kind of way. It took probably a lot longer than 30 seconds to make it, but the final product is something you wanted. Now what would happen if you used a different shape of wood and formed it in a different way?

You start making a wood carving again...

Maybe somebody wants those wood carvings you make because you're especially talented at using the tools. They probably put them in their house, which they decorate in their pass-time. They probably decorate their house because they have friends who visit occasionally to talk about various things, who explore the rest of the game to find things to talk about. Etc. Etc. Etc.

The journey is more interesting than the destination.

In fact, in a lot of MMORPGs where character creation is very robust, that is where players will spend a majority of their time when they're bored with the linearity of the rest of the game (usually just before they quit, since the characters can't do anything non-linear after they're made, so the purpose eventually disappears and autonomy is removed). Doing non-linear stuff is far more interesting.

 The way to remove grind is to make an MMO with thousands of single player rpg storylines. But that would be nigh impossible

I think this has gone way off-topic.

Originally posted by Quirhid

I think this has gone way off-topic.

I'm sorry you think that.

Try another thought, that one isn't working.

Originally posted by Plasuma!!!

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by Plasuma!!!

Stuff

I understand what you mean, it makes sense. Can non-linear be enjoyable for those who want to see the outcome too, though?

 

The outcome is what you want it to be. Think of it like a hobby: why do you do it?

Wood carving, sculpting, writing, composing music, programming, rock-climbing, exploring, etc.

What we have done in games is create a simulation of this input-output process: you start making a wood carving... you are making a wood carving and will be done in 30 seconds... you finish.

It's a generic wood carving. You put it in your generic backpack, which somebody made through the same process.

The end result matters to you in a "chase a carrot" kind of way. The 30 second wait was an inconvenience, and the final product is just a product. Probably something you needed for a quest or could sell for money.

Now what if you were given a tool that allowed you to design what the wood carving looked like?

Process: you start making a wood carving... a 3D modeling interface opens and you get to work... you finish eventually.

The end result matters to you in a "this is my work" kind of way. It took probably a lot longer than 30 seconds to make it, but the final product is something you wanted. Now what would happen if you used a different shape of wood and formed it in a different way?

You start making a wood carving again...

The journey is more interesting than the destination.

 

In fact, in a lot of MMORPGs where character creation is very robust, that is where players will spend a majority of their time when they're bored with the linearity of the rest of the game (usually just before they quit, since the characters can't do anything non-linear after they're made). Doing non-linear stuff is far more interesting.

While I agree with you, and in fact play all my games in this manner, it is not the way most people think.
 

The vast majority of people are linear thinkers. They are trained from childhood to follow the carrot society gives them. They have done so for so long that they are no longer capable of creating their own carrots. Left on their own, they become confused or bored and will leave, looking for a game that tells them what they are supposed to do next.

Devs WANT grind in their games. New content takes far longer to create and test than it does to run through it.

i have had the same problem as the OP WRT being out-leveled by friends. With the same result - I end up soloing most of the time. It is a major negative in my MMO playing.

There are a variety of designs which can reduce the problem. For one - you could tie characters together WRT to leveling, so they can gain xp only when grouped with each other (with a much higher rate to make up for the inconvenience. The characters could still farm for cash, craft, and PvP without each other, they just can't level up.

You could have special zones in which players (and their gear) are normalized to a certain level (similar to Warhammer's 'bolster' effect) to make everyone useful for content in that area. XP gained would be determined by the default level, so high level characters could group with lowbies and neither would hurt their progression.

Originally posted by Plasuma!!!

The outcome is what you want it to be. Think of it like a hobby: why do you do it?

Wood carving, sculpting, writing, composing music, programming, rock-climbing, exploring, etc.

What we have done in games is create a simulation of this input-output process: you start making a wood carving... you are making a wood carving and will be done in 30 seconds... you finish.

It's a generic wood carving. You put it in your generic backpack, which somebody made through the same process.

The end result matters to you in a "chase a carrot" kind of way. The 30 second wait was an inconvenience, and the final product is just a product. Probably something you needed for a quest or could sell for money.

Now what if you were given a tool that allowed you to design what the wood carving looked like?

Process: you start making a wood carving... a 3D modeling interface opens and you get to work... you finish eventually.

The end result matters to you in a "this is my work" kind of way. It took probably a lot longer than 30 seconds to make it, but the final product is something you wanted. Now what would happen if you used a different shape of wood and formed it in a different way?

You start making a wood carving again...

The journey is more interesting than the destination.

It's just that some people (like myself) want to have a definitive end, when you can truly say "I've done it". You know, say after 2 years of hard work you finally get to the destination you've worked for for so long. But if that destination doesn't exist or isn't 'real', you never feel like you've finished what you're doing. You keep going but the feeling of a greater accomplishment is gone. I think the carrot achieves this kind of feeling which I feel is lost in a non-linear game. Of course the problems you said still exist in that kind of system, but it's up to the player if it'll become a problem or not. 

I think your both examples of wood carving were still quite linear experiences, the other of course a simplified version of the other. You start making the product > ??? > you finish the product. 

When I think of linear vs non-linear progression, I rather think about the existence of destination. In your examples you made things out of wood, but for what purpose? In linear game you might get a skill up, and someday become the master woodworker. But in a non-linear game, there is no such thing- you just keep making wood but there is no end to it, no point where you can say "finally I've achieved the goal I've worked for". Or maybe I've misunderstanded your definition of non-linear, in which case you can correct my view.

Of course journey matters more than the destination, but I feel that the existence of the destination is what makes the journey worth it in the first place.

Originally posted by Nightbringe1

Originally posted by Plasuma!!!

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by Plasuma!!!

Stuff

I understand what you mean, it makes sense. Can non-linear be enjoyable for those who want to see the outcome too, though?

 

More stuff

While I agree with you, and in fact play all my games in this manner, it is not the way most people think.
 

The vast majority of people are linear thinkers. They are trained from childhood to follow the carrot society gives them. They have done so for so long that they are no longer capable of creating their own carrots. Left on their own, they become confused or bored and will leave, looking for a game that tells them what they are supposed to do next.

But if they have time to play a game, they have time to re-learn how to be creative.

I think a game can teach just that.

What you give them is a very vague goal, and they eventually get their own ideas once they learn that there's no punishment for "lacking" creativity.

That's part of the reason why people are so reserved about their creativity. They aren't very good at it, and because society prefers perfection over innovation, you should never try something unless you can do it right. Stop them of that thinking. In the game, it is completely OK to suck at things "You'll get better with practice."

Now getting that autonomy behind it is the hard part... they have to be willing to do something. This is where the vague goal comes in handy: "Make 20 creations in the sculpting tool." Maybe have some mini-objectives, such as "use 5 different tools on at least 20 creations."

Those are the carrots they chase.

When they run out, they look around at what they've made... if they tried to be creative, they'll look back and want to master what they've started. If that happens, so begins the cycle.

Also, I think current games punish players for failure a bit too much, so they fear failure and don't try new things.

Originally posted by Nightbringe1

While I agree with you, and in fact play all my games in this manner, it is not the way most people think.
 

The vast majority of people are linear thinkers. They are trained from childhood to follow the carrot society gives them. They have done so for so long that they are no longer capable of creating their own carrots. Left on their own, they become confused or bored and will leave, looking for a game that tells them what they are supposed to do next.

I don't think it's such a bad thing. Of course people can make their own carrots, but truly talented people can make those carrots a lot more appealing and interesting than what you could make yourself. I play games for the purpose of looking for those carrots that truly blow my mind, not because I want to create my own carrots. Most of the time, in games at least, when you can make your own carrots they usually aren't as interesting than if you let the developers create the carrots for you. You still have to bend to the rules of the game, and aren't given truly free hands in making what you want, unlike in the case of developers, who can make just about Anything.

Also, carrots.

.

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by Nightbringe1

While I agree with you, and in fact play all my games in this manner, it is not the way most people think.
 

The vast majority of people are linear thinkers. They are trained from childhood to follow the carrot society gives them. They have done so for so long that they are no longer capable of creating their own carrots. Left on their own, they become confused or bored and will leave, looking for a game that tells them what they are supposed to do next.

I don't think it's such a bad thing. Of course people can make their own carrots, but truly talented people can make those carrots a lot more appealing and interesting than what you could make yourself. I play games for the purpose of looking for those carrots that truly blow my mind, not because I want to create my own carrots. Most of the time, in games at least, when you can make your own carrots they usually aren't as interesting than if you let the developers create the carrots for you. You still have to bend to the rules of the game, and aren't given truly free hands in making what you want, unlike in the case of developers, who can make just about Anything.

Also, carrots..

Then I guess my idea of non-linear design relies on people making content that can blow your mind.

If you've played Morrowind or any moddable game, you can understand the power of player-made content. I exclude Second-Life on purpose because the game is not perfected (difficult to learn). I also believe that in order for non-linear systems to work with current technologies, there needs to be some linearity involved to get people interested in the creative part of it.

An underlying story that ends in a suspended 4th, a platform to continue from - so players can go about and do whatever they like once they've finished.

Strangely, non-linear games only come in the variety of  "completely not user-friendly." They're imperfect, so people avoid them. I suppose most developers need to get better at their craft before they can produce something mind blowing.

Originally posted by Plasuma!!!

 

Then I guess my idea of non-linear design relies on people making content that can blow your mind.

If you've played Morrowind or Oblivion, you can understand the power of player-made content.

I know what you mean by the oblivion example, but that's also the example I would use when thinking of the bad sides of such system. 

When looking at Oblivion, and it's stories (dev or player-made) they really never come close to what could be done if players weren't given open hands as to what will be available in the game. The stories are pretty simple and lack the kind of epicness you can find in games like Metal Gear Solid or Final Fantasy. With everyone creating their own content, you can never truly achieve the scope of story available in those games. They could never create content good enough that it would blow my mind like that, because they're in the end more like me rather than the 'professionals' (for the lack of better word) in game companies creating stories that do blow my mind. The game also puts artificial limits for the players that stop them from implementing their visions in full scope (say if a player wanted to destroy the world of Morrowind in the end of the story, would that be possible? Probably not).

If it was possible for players to create content of the same scale without being limited by the limitations of non-linear (that sounds comical), that would be fine for me too. But so far only linear games can accomplish this, so until something revolutionary comes out (if ever)....

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by Plasuma!!!

 

Stuff

... so until something revolutionary comes out (if ever)....

Are you going to chase that carrot?

Because I will.