Originally posted by Dawnsinger

Originally posted by DarthRaiden

i expanded my post, read about "intrinsic motivation" and the ability  of players to set themsleves goals and even to reward themsleves in a modern sandbox MMO, without the need of "narrative systems" etc.. 

Sandbox just needs a open world and the less "content" i.e narrative systems , the better ..

It's nice to see you have no idea what you're talking about.

I see confirmation on you still have done no research on the things being discussed here.Better let conversation to those who know what they talk about.

Originally posted by DarthRaiden 

I see confirmation on you still have done no research on the things being discussed here.Better let conversation to those who know what they talk about.

"Blah blah blah." Oh, wait, something important! You're not posting here anymore? Good!

Oh, no, wait, it was a crappy jibe in an attempt to make yourself feel better about your lack of knowledge of game design and theory. =( Really, that bullshit about "intrinsic motivation" made me laugh. Trying to justify Darkfall's lack of features with some "SANDBOX NOT NEED FEATURE" crap.

I mean, I'd count real life as the ultimate sandbox, and that has hundreds of "features". kthxbai.

C´mon, there have been claims in this thread that even WoW is a sandbox MMO. And when people say stuff like that, we would have no problem to make Darkfall a sandbox MMO as well!

Originally posted by Respit

...

"Conclusion

In direct opposition to the notion implied by the metaphor, sandbox design requires more top-level design, not less. To be frank: the great risk of the sandbox is that it can be boring.

Where the sandbox is the main part of the game, sometimes the game is impossible to "master": instead you can just juke around with it until it grows tiresome. ..." 

I agree with that part above. 

Some recent posts on the Official Forums that would seem to agree with that conclusion as well:

What is the point?

Boredom and frustration

Week 3 - you called it, bored..

As is always the case with DarkFall though... there may be help coming with the October "expansion". 

Should be an interesting time for DarkFall.  Transfers and the "expansion" are due this month; how they are both implemented and the impact they have should give a glimpse of how DarkFall's future will shake out.   

Originally posted by xzyax

Originally posted by Respit

...

"Conclusion

In direct opposition to the notion implied by the metaphor, sandbox design requires more top-level design, not less. To be frank: the great risk of the sandbox is that it can be boring.

Where the sandbox is the main part of the game, sometimes the game is impossible to "master": instead you can just juke around with it until it grows tiresome. ..." 

 

I agree with that part above. 

 

Some recent posts on the Official Forums that would seem to agree with that conclusion as well:

What is the point?

Boredom and frustration

Week 3 - you called it, bored..

 

As is always the case with DarkFall though... there may be help coming with the October "expansion". 

Should be an interesting time for DarkFall.  Transfers and the "expansion" are due this month; how they are both implemented and the impact they have should give a glimpse of how DarkFall's future will shake out.   

Maybe its you making such posts on official forums just to link them here after.

Serious, prior to official boards beeing customer only  i dont consider them troll free. Forum poster are always the  whiney, bitching and moaning folks, the mass of players don't bother posting they spending time on playing it, that is on every games official forum.

About the point being made i said it already, Sandbox gives you freedom, freeedom requires responsibility on your side to make goals and make decisions and even reward yourself. If you can't manage responsibilty or lack intrinsic motivation get you a game in which developers think for you and you just do what they tell you to do, thats what i suggest to those people who feel bored. 

In themepark games players get bored if they reach "endgame" - they beat the last opponent, they reached highest level, they got the best item as reward. Those themeparks produce more people being bored then any sandbox will do, showing that the argument used here against sandbox games must be flawed in the root. Themepark games have the boring factor built-in so to speak: "what to do after i got max level ? what to do ..there is no quest anymore.." etc..

(btw being bored is a feeling either and a feeling is a weakness for weaklings lol )

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Originally posted by -Zeno-

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Originally posted by Alanako

 

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Originally posted by -Zeno-
 
FREEDOM.
 

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Sorry, but the FFA PVP setting, if done NOT properly, like in Darkfall, its one of the most restrictive ruleset a MMO could have, because it forced the majority of players to bind to the playstile of a few ones, removing freedom from the game ( and no freedom, no sandbox) 
 

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I know a few players who do not have combat skills but have most if not all gathering and crafter skills.  They are not forced to have combat skills.  Hell, I escorted one from one city to another to use our shipyard.  They didn't want to use a runestone for whatever reason.
Yep, your forced to do combat skills.  Not.

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Exactly. FFA PVP is what you make of it, to a large extent. It is a harsher world. Being a harsher world does not make it less of a sandbox in itself. It makes it different, and maybe not what you want, but it is still a sandbox and is still a decently designed, if poorly run, game.

Originally posted by daarco

C´mon, there have been claims in this thread that even WoW is a sandbox MMO. And when people say stuff like that, we would have no problem to make Darkfall a sandbox MMO as well!

You really don't get it, do you? It's simple enough.

If Darkfall = Sandbox, then sandbox = open-ish world with a few things to do.

WoW = Open-ish world with a few things to do.

Therefore, WoW = Sandbox.

BUT, Darkfall =/= Sandbox, so WoW =/= Sandbox.

Originally posted by Dawnsinger

Originally posted by daarco

C´mon, there have been claims in this thread that even WoW is a sandbox MMO. And when people say stuff like that, we would have no problem to make Darkfall a sandbox MMO as well!

 

You really don't get it, do you? It's simple enough.

If Darkfall = Sandbox, then sandbox = open-ish world with a few things to do.

WoW = Open-ish world with a few things to do.

Therefore, WoW = Sandbox.

BUT, Darkfall =/= Sandbox, so WoW =/= Sandbox.

There is no logic in that statement.

Your misunderstanding what is meant by open world. WoW's world is set in stone, there is nothing you can do to alter it whatsoever. What they mean by sandbox is the game developers provide an area in which to play and what you choose to do in that area is up to you, you can mold it, destroy it, create it. Most importantly there is no limits beyond the physical limits of the universe which you inhabit. If you want to build something, you can, if you want to destroy something, you can, if you want to kill something, you can, if you want too....see?

Darkfall isn't a true sandbox, but it is pretty close and could be called sandbox-ish, more so than games like WoW which are pretty linear in many ways. This is why people make the distinction between themeparks and sanboxes. Themeparks are made and you play in them, you play their game, play their classes, level within their restrictions and limits..sandboxes allow you to play your own game and build that "themepark" (i.e the physical world) yourself and play your character your way.

There are much better sandbox games out right now, but im not going to mention them as i don't want the WoW game-wrecking-train to roll into them, QQ to the gods, then tear them to pieces.

Sandbox games are a lot of fun, but there is a large population of modern mmo gamers who seem to be unable to appreciate them for what they are. If they don't have 10,000 quests and hold their hands, tell them how to play, tell them how to spec, tell them exactly how to take down that big boss and effectively wipe their asses from start to finish, they can't seem to deal with it.

Imagine in WoW if you could kill the NPC's who annoy you, if a player sasses you in a newbie zone, you don't have to take it, you could simply attack them and let your blades do the talking. Gold sellers? Wouldn't you LOVE to just walk up to them and rip their heads off? REAL risk vs REAL reward? This is what sandbox games should be all about, your actions have consequences, but not game-engine pre-determined actions, real players dealing out real retibution.

Originally posted by Zinzan 

There is no logic in that statement.

Your misunderstanding what is meant by open world. WoW's world is set in stone, there is nothing you can do to alter it whatsoever. What they mean by sandbox is the game developers provide an area in which to play and what you choose to do in that area is up to you, you can mold it, destroy it, create it. Most importantly there is no limits beyond the physical limits of the universe which you inhabit. If you want to build something, you can, if you want to destroy something, you can, if you want to kill something, you can, if you want too....see?

Darkfall isn't a true sandbox, but it is pretty close and could be called sandbox-ish, more so than games like WoW which are pretty linear in many ways. This is why people make the distinction between themeparks and sanboxes. Themeparks are made and you play in them, you play their game, play their classes, level within their restrictions and limits..sandboxes allow you to play your own game and build that "themepark" (i.e the physical world) yourself and play your character your way.

There are much better sandbox games out right now, but im not going to mention them as i don't want the WoW game-wrecking-train to roll into them, QQ to the gods, then tear them to pieces.

Sandbox games are a lot of fun, but there is a large population of modern mmo gamers who seem to be unable to appreciate them for what they are. If they don't have 10,000 quests and hold their hands, tell them how to play, tell them how to spec, tell them exactly how to take down that big boss and effectively wipe their asses from start to finish, they can't seem to deal with it.

Imagine in WoW if you could kill the NPC's who annoy you, if a player sasses you in a newbie zone, you don't have to take it, you could simply attack them and let your blades do the talking. Gold sellers? Wouldn't you LOVE to just walk up to them and rip their heads off? REAL risk vs REAL reward? This is what sandbox games should be all about, your actions have consequences, but not game-engine pre-determined actions, real players dealing out real retibution.

And, from what I can tell, Darkfall has next to none of that, except the "YOU CAN MURDER" bit.

Check out my signature, and you'll see what I classify as a sandbox game.

To op " all the sand "

Its very simple actually. In a MMO were you can play without doing quests...then its a sandbox MMO. If you need to do quests its a themepark.

When you first login to DF for the very first time, you can do whatever you want anywere you want.

When you first login to WoW, you need to do quests. The whole game is built around the concept that you do quests. And keep doing them.

Originally posted by daarco

Its very simple actually. In a MMO were you can play without doing quests...then its a sandbox MMO. If you need to do quests its a themepark.

When you first login to DF for the very first time, you can do whatever you want anywere you want.

When you first login to WoW, you need to do quests. The whole game is built around the concept that you do quests. And keep doing them.

That's an awful definition. I can just grind in WoW to level 80. Hell, I could leave the starting zone and grind on mobs a few levels higher than me. OH MY GOD, it's such an open and sandbox game.

Originally posted by Dawnsinger

And, from what I can tell, Darkfall has next to none of that, except the "YOU CAN MURDER" bit.

Check out my signature, and you'll see what I classify as a sandbox game.

You horribly misinformed. You block any valuable information that could help you. 

"In my initial foray into the world of Darkfall, it was readily apparent that my character was never on rails. Not once did I feel like I was being directed to a location."
Ten Ton Hammer

Originally posted by DarthRaiden 

You horribly misinformed. You block any valuable information that could help you. 

 

"In my initial foray into the world of Darkfall, it was readily apparent that my character was never on rails. Not once did I feel like I was being directed to a location."
Ten Ton Hammer 

Wow, now that's scraping the bottom of the barrel. Quoting off Ten Ton Hammer, of all things.

Originally posted by Dawnsinger

Originally posted by DarthRaiden 

You horribly misinformed. You block any valuable information that could help you. 

 

"In my initial foray into the world of Darkfall, it was readily apparent that my character was never on rails. Not once did I feel like I was being directed to a location."
Ten Ton Hammer 

 

Wow, now that's scraping the bottom of the barrel. Quoting off Ten Ton Hammer, of all things.

Ten Ton Hammer are a pretty good source of Info. They have kick ass articles I see no reason why the guy shouldn't quote them.

Clearly DF is a sandbox, its just more sandbox lite due to features the game has yet to impliment.

That's ok though not every sandbox /open ended mmo need to be the same copy of one another like themepark games.

Originally posted by Dawnsinger

Originally posted by daarco

Its very simple actually. In a MMO were you can play without doing quests...then its a sandbox MMO. If you need to do quests its a themepark.

When you first login to DF for the very first time, you can do whatever you want anywere you want.

When you first login to WoW, you need to do quests. The whole game is built around the concept that you do quests. And keep doing them.

 

That's an awful definition. I can just grind in WoW to level 80. Hell, I could leave the starting zone and grind on mobs a few levels higher than me. OH MY GOD, it's such an open and sandbox game.

Actually it is. People sre just too damn hung up on what "their" definition is to use the correct one. It's never a matrter of is or isn't anyway iti's simply a matter of degree.  When you get right down to it most people dimply call anything they don't like  "Not a sandbox." Yes you can have a sandbox with quests. That's simply a feature. The type  of sand in the box. It's not the box itself.

 Dawnsinger you have been given the reasons why DF is sandbox now stop trolling already.

You are ridiculous if you propagate this fantasy of yours that DF is not a sandbox.

Originally posted by tensspotting

 Dawnsinger you have been given the reasons why DF is sandbox now stop trolling already.

 

You are ridiculous if you propagate this fantasy of yours that DF is not a sandbox.

Yea those haters are ridicolous, Darkfall is not sandbox, darkfall is still vapor , whats next these sycophantic dishonest haters will claim? lol

Originally posted by metalhead980

Ten Ton Hammer are a pretty good source of Info. They have kick ass articles I see no reason why the guy shouldn't quote them.

Clearly DF is a sandbox, its just more sandbox lite due to features the game has yet to impliment.

That's ok though not every sandbox /open ended mmo need to be the same copy of one another like themepark games.

Considering TTH's reviews are actually written by the company themselves ( a lot of reviews are written by "anonymous" people and sent in ), it really isn't.

@Zymurgeist: That's setting the standards of sandbox rather low, then, since nearly EVERY MMO can be counted as sandbox with that ( optional quests, etc ). Hell, even Aion, with it's traintrack grindyness, could be counted as a sandbox.

@tenspotting: Who's posting alt are you, then? No one's given me a reason it's a sandbox, only a list of features that equate to a massive UT domination map.

@Darth: Man, try making posts that aren't about Darkfall being the subject of persecution, and then we'll talk, instead of just me laughing at you.

A MMORPG is a sandbox if objective indicators can be attested.

- a seamless non instanced world

- unlimited access to game content not hindered through classes, player levels, quest chains and quest requirements 

- cyclic repeatable processes and content instead of linear progression.

If all of that apply then we face  a sandbox ..

lets apply that for a test :

UO - pass = sandbox

SWG pre CU - pass = sandbox

Ryzom - pass = sandbox

Darkfall - pass = sandbox

Guild wars - fail = not sandbox

WoW - fail  = not sandbox

These definition seems covers pretty much what sandbox is and what not and Darkfall is a sandbox.

@Down :  during periods of witch-hunting wrong ridicolous criteria and definitions have been used to valify persons. Same tactic you use here against Darkfall, reconnaissance helped in case of witch-hunting maybe it helps here too.

lets make the opposite test and apply you ridicolous indicator of what not sandbox is :

-FFA full loot PvP is not sandbox  aka "uhm i got attacked everywhere like the small whiny carebear i am i start to difame the game on forums instead to take it like a man and simply accept the ruleset."

UO - pass = would make it not a sandbox ..oh wait.. UO is a sandbox

Mortal Online - pass = would make it not a sandbox - oh wait  so many people wrongly believe to wait for sandbox ?

resulting in your criteria is faulty

@all who think sandbox is a subjective feeling / everyone has his own definition

you would agree to the point that there is a difference in gameplay in the various MMORPG games and seems a lot of people "feel" the same about exact same games. That can't be  coincidence..

There MUST be a different type of MMORPG's and because of a lot of people agree on that and even mostly on the games that belong to that type and the other games belong to other type these difference must be a difference basing on objective criteria's. its not true that everyone can make up if his game is sandbox or not. Its eiher  a MMORPG meets the criteria and then it is a sanbox or it isn't. The "degree" of  sandbox  may be open to subjective judgement but the type if sandbox or not is bound to objective criteria.

Originally posted by Dawnsinger

Originally posted by metalhead980

Ten Ton Hammer are a pretty good source of Info. They have kick ass articles I see no reason why the guy shouldn't quote them.

Clearly DF is a sandbox, its just more sandbox lite due to features the game has yet to impliment.

That's ok though not every sandbox /open ended mmo need to be the same copy of one another like themepark games.

Considering TTH's reviews are actually written by the company themselves ( a lot of reviews are written by "anonymous" people and sent in ), it really isn't.

@Zymurgeist: That's setting the standards of sandbox rather low, then, since nearly EVERY MMO can be counted as sandbox with that ( optional quests, etc ). Hell, even Aion, with it's traintrack grindyness, could be counted as a sandbox.

@tenspotting: Who's posting alt are you, then? No one's given me a reason it's a sandbox, only a list of features that equate to a massive UT domination map.

@Darth: Man, try making posts that aren't about Darkfall being the subject of persecution, and then we'll talk, instead of just me laughing at you.

IN Aion can you make your character anyway you want? Can u design it to cover a bunch of different roles? In Aion you follow a class system its pretty locked in with minimal flexibility.

IN DF I could sit around and be a crafter all day if I wanted to. Maybe a Archer that can throw some Aoe magic at enemies and more.

A sandbox or Open ended game is labeled as such through the flexability of the character progression system it has in place.

Now let me ask you, In Darkfall can I create a custom character? it really is that simple.

Originally posted by metalhead980

IN Aion can you make your character anyway you want? Can u design it to cover a bunch of different roles? In Aion you follow a class system its pretty locked in with minimal flexibility.

IN DF I could sit around and be a crafter all day if I wanted to. Maybe a Archer that can throw some Aoe magic at enemies and more.

A sandbox or Open ended game is labeled as such through the flexability of the character progression system it has in place.

Now let me ask you, In Darkfall can I create a custom character? it really is that simple. 

In Darkfall, you can't. In Darkfall, the end result will always be the same. Every character will have 99.9 in every skill. It really is that simple.

@Darth: And once again you miss the point of what I posted. Stop making a fool of yourself. =/

Originally posted by Dawnsinger

Originally posted by metalhead980

IN Aion can you make your character anyway you want? Can u design it to cover a bunch of different roles? In Aion you follow a class system its pretty locked in with minimal flexibility.

IN DF I could sit around and be a crafter all day if I wanted to. Maybe a Archer that can throw some Aoe magic at enemies and more.

A sandbox or Open ended game is labeled as such through the flexability of the character progression system it has in place.

Now let me ask you, In Darkfall can I create a custom character? it really is that simple. 

In Darkfall, you can't. In Darkfall, the end result will always be the same. Every character will have 99.9 in every skill. It really is that simple.

@Darth: And once again you miss the point of what I posted. Stop making a fool of yourself. =/

But in a way that does allow the ultimate in freedom. I am for a skill cap and like the idea of being a specialist but thats not DF. You can do anything you want. You are correct everyone ends up the same but doesnt mean everyone plays the same. In a true class system you have some that are better than others and have better reaction times but in the end they all play the same. DF is flawed in many ways but it is for all intents and purpose a sandbox but how much sand it has is up for debate.

Originally posted by parrotpholk

Originally posted by Dawnsinger

Originally posted by metalhead980

IN Aion can you make your character anyway you want? Can u design it to cover a bunch of different roles? In Aion you follow a class system its pretty locked in with minimal flexibility.

IN DF I could sit around and be a crafter all day if I wanted to. Maybe a Archer that can throw some Aoe magic at enemies and more.

A sandbox or Open ended game is labeled as such through the flexability of the character progression system it has in place.

Now let me ask you, In Darkfall can I create a custom character? it really is that simple. 

In Darkfall, you can't. In Darkfall, the end result will always be the same. Every character will have 99.9 in every skill. It really is that simple.

@Darth: And once again you miss the point of what I posted. Stop making a fool of yourself. =/

But in a way that does allow the ultimate in freedom. I am for a skill cap and like the idea of being a specialist but thats not DF. You can do anything you want. You are correct everyone ends up the same but doesnt mean everyone plays the same. In a true class system you have some that are better than others and have better reaction times but in the end they all play the same. DF is flawed in many ways but it is for all intents and purpose a sandbox but how much sand it has is up for debate.

im sorry but someone like me will never be all 99.9 in everything. Some of us just dont play enough and honestly most of use will skill in shit that helps us improve our character in our own playstyle.

I dont even like casting in DF so I've basically just used archery and Melee and im fine with that. Every fucking troll on this forum tells people everyone is the same and thats just bullshit.

Honestly why level up archery skills if you hate using a bow? why bother with magic if you like archery? Why would I waste my time raising every stupid freaking skill if I dont intend to do everything?

The game gives me the freedom to do what I want, If i wanna specialize I can, If I want to be everything I could do that also that is freedom.

Originally posted by metalhead980

im sorry but someone like me will never be all 99.9 in everything. Some of us just dont play enough and honestly most of use will skill in shit that helps us improve our character in our own playstyle.

I dont even like casting in DF so I've basically just used archery and Melee and im fine with that. Every fucking troll on this forum tells people everyone is the same and thats just bullshit.

Honestly why level up archery skills if you hate using a bow? why bother with magic if you like archery? Why would I waste my time raising every stupid freaking skill if I dont intend to do everything?

The game gives me the freedom to do what I want, If i wanna specialize I can, If I want to be everything I could do that also that is freedom.

 

Very well said.

I play just the same as you. Love a little melee, and love me some bow.

Maybe people just need to switch games if they become bored of one. How much time can you honestly enjoy out of one game.

They all eventually become tired.