Also...

I'd like to see a game that is quite a bit structurally different as there are already two very similar everquest titles out there. I'd like to see a more player driven game in the EQ world. Take something like velious (three npcs factions: dragon, giant, dwarf) and let the players fund/whatever the side of their choosing and the npcs battle it out accordingly effecting greatly what is seen in the world.

Originally posted by RDBeast

Yeah i completelly agree.... i played eq from quite an early stage of the game and watched it be destroyed over time by sony it was such a shame. In that light i have a lack of faith in sony too, some of their updates for games are ok like they fixed planetside a bit and they did some nice updates here and there on eq2 but damn they know how to completelly screw a game up too. lol

It wasn't destroyed by Sony. It was destroyed by other games like WoW. Which steal a games market share. So companies feel they have to react to get their old players back by altering the original game. Which causes others to leave, and go to games like WoW, which only reinforces the companies desire to make change the original game.

You see, making video games is a multi-billion dollar capitalist industry. In the final analysis, the idea isn't to make a "great game" that suits you, or me or that guy. The idea is to make money, and the best way to do that is to try and make a game that suits the most people... which has, unfortunately, led to the Wowification of certain parts of the industry.

Its only when a company starts with the mindset that it wants to make a NICHE game to capture a smaller market that they can break out of this.

But is this something that is really possible for a company like SOE? A company that USED to have the biggest franchise in the genre? No. They're a big company and they want their old place in the pecking order back. So they will continue to try and make their big named titles (like the EQ franchise) in a way that attempts to capture the largest possible market share.

-R

Originally posted by vesavius

 

Well, with all due respect, and not flaming you, but your wrong imo.

I don't see where the relationship necessarily exists between PvP and a DP that you seem to have picked up on? Why are they even connected? The vast majority of servers of classic EQ had exactly that... co-op based game play, no PvP, harsh DP. I'm not getting your point here really.

Listen, I am of the personal opinion that the MMO market 'that exists today' is pretty crap... Something is missing and what we are being offered isnt what a LOT of people want. We only play it because thats all there is. While I agree that SOE will only continue to make it more crap, thus they will never make the EQ that I and many other PvE preferred MMOers want to see, it dosent mean that people out there don't want this kind of game. I believe the potentiol market of Play to Achieve challenging PvE MMORPGs is massive and pretty much untapped.

There is a huge section of gamers that don't want to deal with the grief and general culture that comes with PvP games.

EQ was built on socialisers, achievers, explorers... Not PvPers, and many still hold the game dear in their hearts. Sure, PvP servers existed, I played on Vallon myself, but they wernt the body of the game. After 10 years, people still talk about classic EQ. People still want it, and it's not just about nostalgia... A lot of people want what it offered, because they arnt being offered it in modern MMORPGs and they miss it.

I have no idea where this myth has come from that all MMORPG players want PvP... I can't even think of many MMORPGs that do PvP well even... I don't get the attraction personally. I would rather play a FPS for my PvP and a MMORPG for PvE.

The only reason, imo, that a challenging co-op non-linear PvE MMORPG isnt huge is simply probably because noone is actually making them beacuse of this lazy fasion led thinking of PvP being required in all games. The market exists, it just isnt being catered for.

No, I'm completely aware of the original game mechanics in EQ. The thing is, as I posted a little while ago, SOE is still in a sort of shock from the success of WoW over EQ2.

Let me interject here and say that I HATE wow. I'm currently playing EVE.

You might wonder, how did WoW when it launched in 2004 capture such a large share of the MMO market? Especially considering that, at the time, SOE was holding the BIGGEST franchise in MMO history--EQ.

The real downfall of EQ2 was twofold. First the EQ2 engine, particularly the GRAPHICS, were far too forward looking. At launch very few machines could run EQ2. In fact, MOST of the original EQ player base couldn't make the move to EQ2 because of this. So SOE's decision to go for photo realism of stylization really hurt them.

Wow, on the other hand, with its stylized cartoony engine COULD be run on older machines--even at launch.

Secondly, WoW offered pvp and EQ2 did not (it does now but it didn't at launch). This was a feature that MANY people enjoyed. In fact, despite how much WoW pvp sucks, it is still what keeps a LOT of people playing.

So I just don't think, given this, that SOE is going to be making a new version of EverQuest without SOME sort of pvp available from the get go. This doesn't mean the pvp will necessarily take front stage, but you'll probably see some sort of battleground pvp, at the very least.

-R

Originally posted by vesavius

yeah, too right they would.

Notice how he dosent even call it 'EverQuest III'?

SOE are already distancing the original game from the brand. It's tragic to watch.

Well I read somewhere that the designers of EQ2 did not want to call it EQ2 as they felt the game was to different and maybe it would have been better if they had not. If they do another EQ something it has to be true to the hardcore orgins of EQ, now if that is something that has mass market appeal nowadays is another question.

Personally I think that EQ2 is great but it suffers from that the designers are trying to do everything for everybody and the playing experience is suffering from that.

Honestly? The way Sony treated the Everquest IP for the last 4 years completely thrown the name downhill. They would be better if they just chose another name or better yet, gave the rights to some other company that actually wants to invest on this great IP and not just get some bucks out of the name

Originally posted by tryklon

Honestly? The way Sony treated the Everquest IP for the last 4 years completely thrown the name downhill. They would be better if they just chose another name or better yet, gave the rights to some other company that actually wants to invest on this great IP and not just get some bucks out of the name

damn it , you beat me to it, I was just typing 'the best solution is EQ3 NOT to be made by SOE, as 90% of the eq1 staff are scattered to the 4 winds, so they will never please the old EQ1 player, and their reputation is going to hamper the new player who wont get all the lore spanning 10 years, and just hears the Anti-leech SOE hate,its a lose , lose situation"

Personnely, SOE need to make something, their reputation is pure garbage, hell they are still reeling from that SWG debarcle, and just buying up games that ran out of cash and running them on a shoestring hasnt helped their image any either, Its is a constant source of amazement TO ME that Smed and co have kept their jobs for so long, its like worst case of entrenched management who are detached from reality of their target markets.

All that said I would play eq3, I still sub to EQ1, my favourite gaming race of all time is the Iksar, and no other race I have chosen in WoW or any other game comes close to this race to play, so unless they dont have them, and knowing SOE that is a distinct possibilty I would give it a go.

Originally posted by Revthought

Originally posted by vesavius

 

Well, with all due respect, and not flaming you, but your wrong imo.

I don't see where the relationship necessarily exists between PvP and a DP that you seem to have picked up on? Why are they even connected? The vast majority of servers of classic EQ had exactly that... co-op based game play, no PvP, harsh DP. I'm not getting your point here really.

Listen, I am of the personal opinion that the MMO market 'that exists today' is pretty crap... Something is missing and what we are being offered isnt what a LOT of people want. We only play it because thats all there is. While I agree that SOE will only continue to make it more crap, thus they will never make the EQ that I and many other PvE preferred MMOers want to see, it dosent mean that people out there don't want this kind of game. I believe the potentiol market of Play to Achieve challenging PvE MMORPGs is massive and pretty much untapped.

There is a huge section of gamers that don't want to deal with the grief and general culture that comes with PvP games.

EQ was built on socialisers, achievers, explorers... Not PvPers, and many still hold the game dear in their hearts. Sure, PvP servers existed, I played on Vallon myself, but they wernt the body of the game. After 10 years, people still talk about classic EQ. People still want it, and it's not just about nostalgia... A lot of people want what it offered, because they arnt being offered it in modern MMORPGs and they miss it.

I have no idea where this myth has come from that all MMORPG players want PvP... I can't even think of many MMORPGs that do PvP well even... I don't get the attraction personally. I would rather play a FPS for my PvP and a MMORPG for PvE.

The only reason, imo, that a challenging co-op non-linear PvE MMORPG isnt huge is simply probably because noone is actually making them beacuse of this lazy fasion led thinking of PvP being required in all games. The market exists, it just isnt being catered for.

I apologise for editing you a lot in this reply, but I didnt really like the lecturing tone of how you post, so I only kept the bits that needed addressing.

You might wonder, how did WoW when it launched in 2004 capture such a large share of the MMO market? Especially considering that, at the time, SOE was holding the BIGGEST franchise in MMO history--EQ.

Well, no, I don't wonder really..

I was here after all...

The real downfall of EQ2 was twofold. First the EQ2 engine, particularly the GRAPHICS, were far too forward looking.

 Yes, this was an issue. SOE screwed up here.

Secondly, WoW offered pvp and EQ2 did not (it does now but it didn't at launch). This was a feature that MANY people enjoyed. In fact, despite how much WoW pvp sucks, it is still what keeps a LOT of people playing.

Yes, a lot of people like PvP. A lot don't. A lot of people play WoW and never PvP. My sister and her small family guild included.

My point isnt that people don't like PvP, because obviously a lot do. That isnt being debated.

My point is that a lot of people also like PvE, and that market, because of the false reality that PvP is responsible for WoW's success, isnt being served. 

 WoW was a massive success for numerous reasons, besides the technical side of things. These included; having a hugely popular IP, a refined gameplay blueprint based on what existing games had already been using, a dedicated existing fanbase that dwarfed EQs (and 99% of other games at that time), the massive growth in internet connectivity around the same time, general growing public awarness of the MMO market, and excellent timing (by luck or design) to pick up a lot of burned out refugees from other games that had been around for a while. These, amongst other factors, all played a part.

Then of course the sheeple effect kicked in and the snowball started. To give the existance of PvP all the credit isnt really sensible.

If it was then other PvP games would have been as big way before.... If PvP was the main driver of WoW's success why didnt other existing PvP games, which could equally run on old machines, ever get the subs? Why did EQ, powered by PvE gameplay, outsell so many PvP games in it's heyday?

Yes, EQ2 and WoW had a showdown, and EQ2 lost for many reasons. That loss has falsely flavoured market perceptions about PvP since. But bear in mind that perceptions are rarely the true reality.

I think, personally, your a PvP fan and that has coloured your perspective on this matter. You seem to be seeing a very jaundiced version of what happened.

So I just don't think, given this, that SOE is going to be making a new version of EverQuest without SOME sort of pvp available from the get go. This doesn't mean the pvp will necessarily take front stage, but you'll probably see some sort of battleground pvp, at the very least.

I agree.

SOE are famous for making crap decisions though.

 

I'd rather they let it rest in peace. I'm all for a new fantasy MMO from SOE--could be interesting--but EverQuest just isn't theirs in my mind, I've hated everything they've done to it, and I just don't want to see them screw with it any more.

I think SOE would be a good match for the 4e Forgotten Realms, but all signs indicate that Cryptic has beaten them to the catch.

Originally posted by Saerain

 

I think SOE would be a good match for the 4e Forgotten Realms

In the sense that both they and WotC have scrwed their core player base firmly up the harris for the past few years?

Yep, perfect match ;)

 mm wtv anygame maker do yes be it blizzard or soe ,you need something to get them in the game if you just do publicity and nothing else player will only be there for publicity duration

and i can say all game maker have a hard time finding a way to interest people in their game more the 2month 

wow is the exeption but on average the gamer dont stay ,so all those switcheroo cant be wrong lol

check athene they had 4000 player waiting to do a live event in just by word of mouth lol

i think if you do in game event (its better when its a live event)

yes its a lot of work ,dont believe me. ask blizzard and ustream that are trying to find a solution to make live event in wow a reality

i dont beleive it can be done! why?

athene in wow isnt seen by a lot of player yet a lot dont know him still ,but if he ever make live event a reality in wow it wont be 4000 player loging in it will be more like 40000 player or even 400 000 player lol.thats why i dont believe live event  in wow is  possible 

maybe in a game less popular even then im not sure

 lol stop living in the past lol swg story is in the past .they made good progress with eq2 i couldnt play before ,and now eq2 work on my  comp when i tried to play it in april 07 it wasnt working on my comp

Originally posted by drbaltazar

 lol stop living in the past lol swg story is in the past .they made good progress with eq2 i couldnt play before ,and now eq2 work on my  comp when i tried to play it in april 07 it wasnt working on my comp

eh?

SOE just needs to make a game with the concepts of SWG pre NGE in the everquest world then they would have a succesfull game. Of course they would screw it up down the road but still.

Originally posted by vesavius

Originally posted by Revthought

Originally posted by vesavius

 

Well, with all due respect, and not flaming you, but your wrong imo.

I don't see where the relationship necessarily exists between PvP and a DP that you seem to have picked up on? Why are they even connected? The vast majority of servers of classic EQ had exactly that... co-op based game play, no PvP, harsh DP. I'm not getting your point here really.

Listen, I am of the personal opinion that the MMO market 'that exists today' is pretty crap... Something is missing and what we are being offered isnt what a LOT of people want. We only play it because thats all there is. While I agree that SOE will only continue to make it more crap, thus they will never make the EQ that I and many other PvE preferred MMOers want to see, it dosent mean that people out there don't want this kind of game. I believe the potentiol market of Play to Achieve challenging PvE MMORPGs is massive and pretty much untapped.

There is a huge section of gamers that don't want to deal with the grief and general culture that comes with PvP games.

EQ was built on socialisers, achievers, explorers... Not PvPers, and many still hold the game dear in their hearts. Sure, PvP servers existed, I played on Vallon myself, but they wernt the body of the game. After 10 years, people still talk about classic EQ. People still want it, and it's not just about nostalgia... A lot of people want what it offered, because they arnt being offered it in modern MMORPGs and they miss it.

I have no idea where this myth has come from that all MMORPG players want PvP... I can't even think of many MMORPGs that do PvP well even... I don't get the attraction personally. I would rather play a FPS for my PvP and a MMORPG for PvE.

The only reason, imo, that a challenging co-op non-linear PvE MMORPG isnt huge is simply probably because noone is actually making them beacuse of this lazy fasion led thinking of PvP being required in all games. The market exists, it just isnt being catered for.

I apologise for editing you a lot in this reply, but I didnt really like the lecturing tone of how you post, so I only kept the bits that needed addressing.

You might wonder, how did WoW when it launched in 2004 capture such a large share of the MMO market? Especially considering that, at the time, SOE was holding the BIGGEST franchise in MMO history--EQ.

Well, no, I don't wonder really..

I was here after all...

The real downfall of EQ2 was twofold. First the EQ2 engine, particularly the GRAPHICS, were far too forward looking.

 Yes, this was an issue. SOE screwed up here.

Secondly, WoW offered pvp and EQ2 did not (it does now but it didn't at launch). This was a feature that MANY people enjoyed. In fact, despite how much WoW pvp sucks, it is still what keeps a LOT of people playing.

Yes, a lot of people like PvP. A lot don't. A lot of people play WoW and never PvP. My sister and her small family guild included.

My point isnt that people don't like PvP, because obviously a lot do. That isnt being debated.

My point is that a lot of people also like PvE, and that market, because of the false reality that PvP is responsible for WoW's success, isnt being served. 

 WoW was a massive success for numerous reasons, besides the technical side of things. These included; having a hugely popular IP, a refined gameplay blueprint based on what existing games had already been using, a dedicated existing fanbase that dwarfed EQs (and 99% of other games at that time), the massive growth in internet connectivity around the same time, general growing public awarness of the MMO market, and excellent timing (by luck or design) to pick up a lot of burned out refugees from other games that had been around for a while. These, amongst other factors, all played a part.

Then of course the sheeple effect kicked in and the snowball started. To give the existance of PvP all the credit isnt really sensible.

If it was then other PvP games would have been as big way before.... If PvP was the main driver of WoW's success why didnt other existing PvP games, which could equally run on old machines, ever get the subs? Why did EQ, powered by PvE gameplay, outsell so many PvP games in it's heyday?

Yes, EQ2 and WoW had a showdown, and EQ2 lost for many reasons. That loss has falsely flavoured market perceptions about PvP since. But bear in mind that perceptions are rarely the true reality.

I think, personally, your a PvP fan and that has coloured your perspective on this matter. You seem to be seeing a very jaundiced version of what happened.

So I just don't think, given this, that SOE is going to be making a new version of EverQuest without SOME sort of pvp available from the get go. This doesn't mean the pvp will necessarily take front stage, but you'll probably see some sort of battleground pvp, at the very least.

I agree.

SOE are famous for making crap decisions though.

 

My apologies if I come off a bit lecturey. I'm a graduate student by trade, so in the process I do a lot of teaching and lecturing of undergrads, so I suppose it can sometimes come out in the way I post things on the internet. At least I didn't go all academic on you. :P

I agree with all of your points on WoW. Completely. What I will say is that I imagine that the next iteration of EQ will look something like WoW in its scope. WoW has all kinds of PVE servers where the pvp is optional. That's the thing though, its optional on these servers, as in still there, you just don't have to participate if you don't want to. All I was trying to say originally is that, at the very minimum, EQ Next will probably launch with this sort of optional pvp.

I just don't think there is much of a chance for a new member of the EQ franchise with absolutely NO pvp as you had originally suggested. I also think that the chances for a significant death penalty in the franchise, precisely because EQ is being aimed at the mainstream MMO fanbase, are pretty low.

Its true, I do like pvp (I also like pve and played EQ and EQ2 for quite awhile). That said, you have real game design problems when you don't include pvp at the get-go. Just look at how character classes (Ranger anyone?) were changed when SOE decided that it would be a good idea to add pvp servers to EQ2. The rebalancing of the classes took a lot of man hours, and pissed a lot of players off.

I think they'll try to avoid having to do this by including pvp in the next game. Just my opinion.

Cheers,

-R

 revtought,the only reason eq2 was less popular back then and probably still  is the computer needed to get good look 

on this game,back in 2004 not lot of future mmo gamer  had the computer to run it,

soe was assuming back then that they would just upgrade end of story .as we now know .why would player buy a more powerfull computer when they could run wow on their old trash can

and as we know thats exactly what happened 

one other thing eq2 recommend to turn off  anti-aliasing and the other toy i was worried tihs week as i tried this and sure enough game looks very good without aa etc

player wanted to play eq2 but system req pushed them out and blizzard had probably planned from start to make a game  that works on almost anything wich payed off big time

if eq2 had managed to make good look and system req  close to wow ,it would probably be the king of gaming today still

but they aimed for quality in the long run 

if you got a big fast computer with i7 processor and window 7 try  eq2 at max setting 

you ll se just how good it look

remember this is a 04 game not a 08 game its 5 years old

its a big world lot of lore etc

in my view tho ,i dont believe this game is made for teen ,its more for adult

lot of min-game style stuff to do

eq2 delayed shader 3 till december if any eq2 player like me didnt know

it would be shame if soe tried to copy wow way ,it wouldnt make their game more popular

if i was soe,i would use eq2 and play a lore tune a la cataclysm 

lot of player like this game,if something bad was to happen in eq2 world and changed face of the world forever who would complain, no one 

and they would get a good excuse to relaunch 

and it would be a good excuse to update whatever need update.

cataclysm will prove a game doesnt have to be new to be fun

and i bet an exisitng game is lot less work then starting from scratch

Drbaltazar I think you are mistaken about why eq2 didn't do so well.

The engine wasn't to powerful when it released, it was released to early.  EQ2 was rushed to market so that soe could beat blizzard to the punch so to speak.  The game wasn't finished and that included the engine. 

Looking past the performance issues of the game engine and you will see that soe spent the better part of the games first years reworking all of the core systems of the actual gameplay right up to the major combat revamp.  EQ2 failed to dominate the market, because the gameplay suffered.  That is why they spent so much effort on reworking the game and not reworking performance.

Performance wasn't the only common theme that was brought up about why people left eq2.  There were a lot of complaints about the gameplay. 

 daf your probably right about eq2 being rushed out,every game company only think of one thing how fast ,then the game is released but stay mt for various reason.

i didnt play eq2 back then i just couldnt afford the computer needed ,hell wow worked on almost anything lol

so the the player that played wow enjoyed their game and probably lot still do

the eq2 i play now is nice looking ,i cant run it at max setting i would need a new computer 

but after customising graphic it look good

i ll play it this season ,not today unfortunatly .i got to go to my cousin wedding lol\

but very late tonight or tomorrow  i ll be there ganaven or ganaren is the server  

i played wow for 3 year ,back then it was perfect for a new player

but seeing eq2 now i believe eq2 is more for an experienced player ,we ll see when i hit 80 

love crafting in this game its  not mindless like in wow 

Originally posted by Daffid011

Drbaltazar I think you are mistaken about why eq2 didn't do so well.

The engine wasn't to powerful when it released, it was released to early.  EQ2 was rushed to market so that soe could beat blizzard to the punch so to speak.  The game wasn't finished and that included the engine. 

Looking past the performance issues of the game engine and you will see that soe spent the better part of the games first years reworking all of the core systems of the actual gameplay right up to the major combat revamp.  EQ2 failed to dominate the market, because the gameplay suffered.  That is why they spent so much effort on reworking the game and not reworking performance.

Performance wasn't the only common theme that was brought up about why people left eq2.  There were a lot of complaints about the gameplay. 

 

 

Sadly, this is pretty much true. IMO, eq2 is the best PvE mmo out right now. Its up there on my list with Lotro close behind. But it was a mess at launch. No arguing about that. And tbh, SOE is not that popular after all the shit they have done. Many players avoid EQ2 just because SOE is behind the wheels.

Originally posted by IRNUB 

Sadly, this is pretty much true. IMO, eq2 is the best PvE mmo out right now. Its up there on my list with Lotro close behind. But it was a mess at launch. No arguing about that. And tbh, SOE is not that popular after all the shit they have done. Many players avoid EQ2 just because SOE is behind the wheels.

I actually think a lot of people have tried EQ2, they just don't like it.  This includes EQ1 players which so many bought EQ2 at launch and jumped in hoping to see the next EQ1.  But what they got was something completely, utterly, different.  When you make a sequel but fail to attract your loyal base from the first one, you usually don't do very well.  Same thing happened to AC2.

As for Everquest Next, I think people have read too much into it.  I think it was more of a hypothetical than anything, like if they have the next Everquest, what they would need to do, etc..

I agree with others who say that the IP should go to another developer. I just hope not Turbine. The Lore of EQ is great if they could just create a game around that lore and really immerse the player into it then you could hook alot of people. On the PvP side I really think to be a longtime player in the market place you need to have both and do it well. It needs to have meaning within the game world whether you PvP or PvE or a little of both. Meaningful battles that are fought over things the player can see for themselves whether they were a part of the battle or not. Crafting that matters to the economy and the ability to setup a shop in real time with no instancing. An open non-instanced world with mounts and ships made available early. Some of the evolutions of this generation with the story telling from the old.If they could cross EQ1 with EQ2 with Vanguard and Mass Effect you could really have the Everquest Next game.

Originally posted by RDBeast

Yes they should just remake classical Everquest with a kickass engine and then dominate the world. :P

I like the way you think  :) Sign me up for that game!

SoE doesn't give a crap about what the consumer wants...

Free Realms + EQ Lore + $15/mo = Everquest Next

Mark my words, I'll even bet my life on it.

do away with the solo quest grind bullshit and bring back strong incentives to group.

Originally posted by bahamut1

SoE doesn't give a crap about what the consumer wants...

Free Realms + EQ Lore + $15/mo = Everquest Next

Mark my words, I'll even bet my life on it.

That's funny ... ?!? ... hang on a minute, that's not so funny.

After the SWG debacle, I wouldn't put anything past $0£.

Important issues for me:

Classes that are unique. Like the mage, bst, shd, enchanter and bard. No other MMO has classes like those. Every MMO today has classes that are just barely different from each other. I don't want the boring DPS, Tank or healer role. Mix them together like EQ did.

Mobs that aren't tagged as solo or group. I really hate that.

Ease up on the reliance of a one class healer. Please, lets get creative here. All groups shouldn't have to have that one class. Other classes should be able to fill the role.

Options at end game. The reason I quit WoW was, because all you could do was grind gear. In EQ, you can grind XP or gear. I love it.

Not so important:

Chill on the no-drop. I hate this idea. I love EQ's early economy. FV is an awesome server if it had more people. I love the idea of still being able to trade goods at max level. It also gives the soloer or grouper a chance to get better gear if they farm gold. Another reason to continue to grind.

Instances. I'm a fan. I feel no less immersion from instanced dungeons.

Just skills, no levels. How much would this rule?

Stats. Please make stats matter significantly, or much more than the original.

Pets and Combat Arts/skills. Please link them to the relevant stat, and the more powerful you get the more powerful your skills get.