I hit 20 in about 16 hours of play time. Although I have done it a few times. If you take your time and its your first time 30 hours of play time isn't unreasonable. 30 took a while but I did a lot of PvP, crafting, and played an alt to 15. I am 32 right now but easily could be in the 40's if I kept busting my balls on grinding and playing the game a lot.

Originally posted by Paragus1

Half of the RvR in Warhammer is instanced, so right off the bat that gives Aion a big heads up over it.  

That point is debatable. Scenarios are optional, ad provide a much fairer match than open RvR does. Unless Aion has some mechanic I haven't heard about, it's as prone to zerging as Warhammer was.

Warhammer also has no PvP risk at all when you die, where in Aion you will lose points from your ranking.  While Warhammer's PvP is accessible right out of the gate, that is probably the only time the PvP is good.   Warhammers RvR is riddled with silly amounts of crowd control later in the game. 

"Silly" isn't the word. "Sick", "crazy", or "stupid" would all be more apt. A colossal error in design for a PvP game.

Also capturing keeps in Aion yield real benefits that make people want to hold onto them instead of keep trading.

I was saying from release that that is what Warhammer's open RvR needed. The devs just kept adding new gear grinds and xp bars. Not to mention - making a guild pay money to hold a keep. Just idiotic. Whoever designed the campaign has no idea of how war works.

As to the grind comment of the OP:

Aion can feel a bit grindy at times. Hell I was considering leaving because of it, but here's what I've noticed.

There are a few levels where it is somewhat harder to avoid grinding, these are usually the last lvl or two in which you spend in a certain area. The reason for this, is because if you are new to the game, you don't really have a good grasp on the quest progression, and the tendency will be to just pick up whatever quests you immediately can find, do those, and say 'what next'.

Sadly, Aion's quests can be a bit sparce at certain lvls, so you kinda need to know where to look (online guides are very helpful for this). Also, don't be afraid to start questing in areas that appear at first glance to be too difficult for you. There's almost always a few quests to get you jump started in a new area, even when you appear to be too low.

When I first got to 30, it felt like pulling teeth at certain times. Then I took a break, rolled a new character, and noticed the game going by a LOT more quickly (yes, even after 20). It's all about managing your quests, and not burning out the ones that give good exp too quickly.

I didn't played WAR, but I can tell you that Aion PvP is just great, no matter what other peoples say.

Also, I don't really get where is this "grind". Is it true that quests doesn't just show up to you like that. They are located in different camps, where at some camps you can reach through the flight NPC.  I've played from the head-start , meaning I have 14 days without this one( didn't played it yet ) and I am lvl 32. From the total of 14 days, I didn't played like 3 days and in the remaining ones, I can say that I was playing between 3-7 hours, depending on the day. I always have quests to do, no matter what other guys tell you. Is it true that I was in Fire Temple like 10 times for that fucking orange book :) but didn't manage to get it. Still, we never, done the whole instance, because we run directly to the last boss, fighting like 30 mobs till the boss, so we can do it again. So lets say I've manage to do 1 level in Fire Temple, but the rest only from quests ( don't forget the ones from Abyss too ) .

My brother is level 37 and he's playing from 6-8 hours per day, so again, I don't know where is this grind or like someone said : Aion = Lineage 2.5 . No, isn't true and if it was, how in the hell there are people 40+ lvl in 2 weeks, where the level cap is 50?!

Hence, I know OP is just trolling with this topic, like many others, but for the rest of you who just want to try Aion, do it and don't listen to does troll posts.

Heck, I still have queues like 1:30 hours at peek times, so if it was grindy or no "cool" like some say, why there are still queues after 2 weeks? Ok ok, we should see this after the first month right? It will be the same :)

Also , use aionarmory.com for quests and such, and always ask in channel for some help!

I for one, I love it, and will be playing !

Have fun!

TIP: For the gathering quests, just go to the Broker, and buy whatever the NPC quest giver asks . Cheap, fast and good xp ;)

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Paragus1

"Silly" isn't the word. "Sick", "crazy", or "stupid" would all be more apt. A colossal error in design for a PvP game.

 

You want to know what's funny?  I've actually seen people complain even on this forum no less that Warhammer didn't have enough crowd control elements in the game.  How the hell they came to that conclusion is beyond me unless they never actually played the game in T3/4.

Personally, I think "ridiculous" would be the best word.

Originally posted by Lobotomist

Originally posted by Gameloading

Originally posted by Lobotomist

I am curious. Its pretty established that reaching lvl 20+ in Aion is bit of a grind.

Actually reaching level 20 will take about a day or two and you'll be questing all the way.

Really?

Why than some other posts say its humonguous grind to reach lvl 20 ?

Its BS... honestly - I leveled from 1-20 and did ALL quests (with maybe a few exceptions of... hey - Im almost a level, let's go kill a few mobs here)

You can quest all the way to 25 and probably then some. After that it slows down a little but you still have quests, and you get xp from a variety of ways. Many people are already lvl 40+ (the hardcore players of course)... that just goes to show you... 2 weeks in, and players are pretty close to the end cap. It isn't as bad as the QQers make it out to be.

Yay at comparing what WAR was at release VS what Aion is now after being out for a year in korea, try WAR and compare them now (they both are a year old now). Most of the bad points that have been posted in this thread have been corrected already.

Aion is just the new thing people will get tierd of it and move back to their usual MMOs (of course some will stay) but the game feels robotic and forced.

OP: because WAR is garbage.

/thread

I think it's the instancing.  Open world PvP can be great for getting players together, dropping their quests and grinding, to fight off invaders.  Only works if the invaders are actually invading something, and not just in some shared PvP scenario. Also, only works if the quests and grinding mean something to the would-be PvPers. If everyone's just there to PvP, the PvP loses something.

Originally posted by Cefka

Yay at comparing what WAR was at release VS what Aion is now after being out for a year in korea, try WAR and compare them now (they both are a year old now). Most of the bad points that have been posted in this thread have been corrected already.

I played Warhammer from release until a month ago, and that is a lie.

WAR PvP started out great. Leveling from 1-20 was some of the best fun I have ever had in an MMO. I love open world PvP and there is a ton of it. Level gaps are bridged by the bolstering system so going up against someone 3-4 lvls higher than you can result in a win. Some where in the lvl 20 range, WAR starts becoming very "unfun" and I think it was mostly due to the large number of classes with crowd control and area effect DPS abilities. 

Other major flaws in WAR for me was the RvR keep seige system and the rewards. To some people, tt made more sense for Destro/Order to play flip the keeps so that they could get the PvP gear which only dropped from the keep bosses. People on my server, Badlands, would actually get upset and pitch tantrums if you did anything to defend your own keep.

Once the majority of players got their PvP gear, reknown farming became the big thing. Strategies involved waiting inside a keep until all the outer doors were down then fighting back because you would get a better reknown bonus if the doors were down.

If you made it to the end game and got to participate in a Fortress or City seige, it only got worse. Fortresses were so laggy they had to make them instanced. Queing for the instance was based off first come first served so anyone actually involved in unlocking a Fortress couldnt get in. When one side got close to locking all the zones to go to a Fortress, others would go and sit in the Fortress to wait for the lock. It's a ton of fun to spend hours out of your day locking multiple zones just to miss out on the Fort fight so that the freeloaders could take your spot. City seiges turned into boring PQ grinds for gear.

Did I mention too much CC and AoE DPS? Class/Race balancing in WAR has always been horrible. Mythic said they spent a lot of time making Destro cool because they thought they would have the same problem Blizzard had with Alliance/Horde population imbalances. They ended up neglecting Order and in most cases had the opposite effect with lower Order populations.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Paragus1

Half of the RvR in Warhammer is instanced, so right off the bat that gives Aion a big heads up over it.  

That point is debatable. Scenarios are optional, ad provide a much fairer match than open RvR does. Unless Aion has some mechanic I haven't heard about, it's as prone to zerging as Warhammer was.

 

Ummmm pretty sure thats what the AI race is for. From what I understand they act as both instigators and equalizers. Meaning, yeah sometimes they will all beam down from their spaceship things and F you up, but at other times, they are supposed to work more like an equalizing force, in that they will attack a heavily fortified base if the players attacking are of an inferior number, etc. (This is what NCsoft has stated on their website, and I'm not too sure whether it really takes effect until the higher abyss stuff, since the Balaur generally own all of the upper abyss)

Originally posted by Lobotomist

I am curious. Its pretty established that reaching lvl 20+ in Aion is bit of a grind.
But it is required to reach so very hyped  Aion PVP.

Another game that hyped its PVP , also let you enter PVP from very first level. And not only that...
It lets you progress trough game without ever grinding PVP. The game is Warhammer Online.

It sounds like much better deal to me ... if PVP is what you are after.

 

So could you please spare people of grinding and wasting precious times of their lives and
explain, or compare - what makes Aion PVP better than WAR PVP ?

Please give some examples too

There is nothing better about PvP or RvR in this game. Both games are flawed.

I participated in a successful Fortress Capture in the Abyss a few days ago. That was the most boring game experience I have had in an MMORPG. Ever. 30 minutes to break down the gate. Mobs provided no twist on the challenge. An hour of 50+ people pounding on a boss with no challenge beyond the insane HP pool. No real reward either, beyond bragging rights.

No segregation of higher level players from lower level players, so power levelers and their friends rule. (I've been traveling along with that leading edge, or near enough to it. I can't imagine entering the Abyss now at level 25).

Higher level toons get an additional bonus to mitigation and resists for every level they are higher than a foe. Once the level gap is 5+ not even the best equipped, most well played lower level character has much of a chance vs. a poorly equipped and played higher level foe.

People who ride the leading edge and enjoy ganking may get some continuing enjoyment from the game. Those who trail behind, or even those who keep pace while preferring their PvP to be challenging and fair, will tire of the PvP very quickly.

Of course, once you tire of PvP, you're close to done with playing the game, because from level 25+, your not going to escape it.

Originally posted by Prazzy

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Paragus1

Half of the RvR in Warhammer is instanced, so right off the bat that gives Aion a big heads up over it.  

That point is debatable. Scenarios are optional, ad provide a much fairer match than open RvR does. Unless Aion has some mechanic I haven't heard about, it's as prone to zerging as Warhammer was.

 

 

Ummmm pretty sure thats what the AI race is for. From what I understand they act as both instigators and equalizers. Meaning, yeah sometimes they will all beam down from their spaceship things and F you up, but at other times, they are supposed to work more like an equalizing force, in that they will attack a heavily fortified base if the players attacking are of an inferior number, etc. (This is what NCsoft has stated on their website, and I'm not too sure whether it really takes effect until the higher abyss stuff, since the Balaur generally own all of the upper abyss)

How is that a desirable game feature? It's a ham handed fudge to punish the dominant side for their dominance, while not offering an benefit for the underdogs to improve their lot in life. It would be like addressing poverty not by helping people improve their position in life, but by taking everything from the wealthy when ever their assets exceed a set level. BTW, the Balaur are never going to help the underdogs win an objective, they never act as allies. Their entire role is that of spoilers.

They are in no way, shape or form a positive substitute for a third, human controlled faction.

Originally posted by Lobotomist

Originally posted by Gameloading

Originally posted by Lobotomist

I am curious. Its pretty established that reaching lvl 20+ in Aion is bit of a grind.

Actually reaching level 20 will take about a day or two and you'll be questing all the way.

Really?

Why than some other posts say its humonguous grind to reach lvl 20 ?

It only takes a day or two if you play 8+ hours a day.  It takes the average person who drops maybe a couple hours a day around a week or two.

Originally posted by comerb

Originally posted by Lobotomist

Originally posted by Gameloading

Originally posted by Lobotomist

I am curious. Its pretty established that reaching lvl 20+ in Aion is bit of a grind.

Actually reaching level 20 will take about a day or two and you'll be questing all the way.

Really?

Why than some other posts say its humonguous grind to reach lvl 20 ?

 

It only takes a day or two if you play 8+ hours a day.  It takes the average person who drops maybe a couple hours a day around a week or two.

Even with casual play, if you take longer than a week to reach level 20 you're doing something very wrong.

Originally posted by fiontar

There is nothing better about PvP or RvR in this game. Both games are flawed.

I participated in a successful Fortress Capture in the Abyss a few days ago. That was the most boring game experience I have had in an MMORPG. Ever. 30 minutes to break down the gate. Mobs provided no twist on the challenge. An hour of 50+ people pounding on a boss with no challenge beyond the insane HP pool. No real reward either, beyond bragging rights.

No segregation of higher level players from lower level players, so power levelers and their friends rule. (I've been traveling along with that leading edge, or near enough to it. I can't imagine entering the Abyss now at level 25).

Higher level toons get an additional bonus to mitigation and resists for every level they are higher than a foe. Once the level gap is 5+ not even the best equipped, most well played lower level character has much of a chance vs. a poorly equipped and played higher level foe.

People who ride the leading edge and enjoy ganking may get some continuing enjoyment from the game. Those who trail behind, or even those who keep pace while preferring their PvP to be challenging and fair, will tire of the PvP very quickly.

Of course, once you tire of PvP, you're close to done with playing the game, because from level 25+, your not going to escape it.

Wow.

That is a pretty damning analysis of end game.

Can we get confirmation or rebuttal from others who have end game experience?

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by fiontar

There is nothing better about PvP or RvR in this game. Both games are flawed.

I participated in a successful Fortress Capture in the Abyss a few days ago. That was the most boring game experience I have had in an MMORPG. Ever. 30 minutes to break down the gate. Mobs provided no twist on the challenge. An hour of 50+ people pounding on a boss with no challenge beyond the insane HP pool. No real reward either, beyond bragging rights.

No segregation of higher level players from lower level players, so power levelers and their friends rule. (I've been traveling along with that leading edge, or near enough to it. I can't imagine entering the Abyss now at level 25).

Higher level toons get an additional bonus to mitigation and resists for every level they are higher than a foe. Once the level gap is 5+ not even the best equipped, most well played lower level character has much of a chance vs. a poorly equipped and played higher level foe.

People who ride the leading edge and enjoy ganking may get some continuing enjoyment from the game. Those who trail behind, or even those who keep pace while preferring their PvP to be challenging and fair, will tire of the PvP very quickly.

Of course, once you tire of PvP, you're close to done with playing the game, because from level 25+, your not going to escape it.

Wow.

That is a pretty damning analysis of end game.

Can we get confirmation or rebuttal from others who have end game experience?

there is no one in Aion West who is even close to lvl 50+.  It is less than a percent for 41+. So I doubt there are many people who can say yay or nay.

I did take part in one siege where we kept an asmo legion from getting it and it was a blast. However the fort was much higher than any of the levels going for it so we couldn't take it down. But the pvp to keep them from getting it was fun. They ended up taking a fort the next day.

As far as the ganking, if a person is very senstive to it then they shouldn't play Aion. If they can shrug it off (you don't really lose much except some abyss points) then not only is it not a big deal but there are many times you will get aid and turn the tide.

Originally posted by fiontar

Originally posted by Prazzy

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Paragus1

Half of the RvR in Warhammer is instanced, so right off the bat that gives Aion a big heads up over it.  

That point is debatable. Scenarios are optional, ad provide a much fairer match than open RvR does. Unless Aion has some mechanic I haven't heard about, it's as prone to zerging as Warhammer was.

 

 

Ummmm pretty sure thats what the AI race is for. From what I understand they act as both instigators and equalizers. Meaning, yeah sometimes they will all beam down from their spaceship things and F you up, but at other times, they are supposed to work more like an equalizing force, in that they will attack a heavily fortified base if the players attacking are of an inferior number, etc. (This is what NCsoft has stated on their website, and I'm not too sure whether it really takes effect until the higher abyss stuff, since the Balaur generally own all of the upper abyss)

 

How is that a desirable game feature? It's a ham handed fudge to punish the dominant side for their dominance, while not offering an benefit for the underdogs to improve their lot in life. It would be like addressing poverty not by helping people improve their position in life, but by taking everything from the wealthy when ever their assets exceed a set level. BTW, the Balaur are never going to help the underdogs win an objective, they never act as allies. Their entire role is that of spoilers.

They are in no way, shape or form a positive substitute for a third, human controlled faction.

Well I didnt say that they will straight up team with the lower numbered side. They would obviously engage both factions, though their objective would primarily be to beat of the fortress. I understand what you are saying about how it would hurt the dominant side, but ultimately this is a game, and I don't know about you, but I enjoy my games to be at least a little challenging, while not becoming either too easy or impossible, which is of course a possibility should one faction/legion become too powerful and no one on the opposing faction be able to challenge them.

I'm not saying the system is perfect, nor for that matter can I testify that I have had a chance to see this feature in action since I re-rolled on the new server and am only level 20. But I do think ultimately that the feature does more good than harm since it at least gives outcomes to predictable situations as certain amount of unpradictability.

(I would jsut liek to add, that from my understanding, the Balaur won't automatically jsut attack the base with the superior fighting force, but may simply take everyone on and try capturing the base themselves. Supposedly they are supposed to jsut work as a independant AI race)

Originally posted by Sovrath

As far as the ganking, if a person is very senstive to it then they shouldn't play Aion. If they can shrug it off (you don't really lose much except some abyss points) then not only is it not a big deal but there are many times you will get aid and turn the tide.

If mis-matches are typical, then the PvP is seriously flawed and lots of players will leave quickly after getting their fill of it.

Imbalance in PvP is a game-killer. It was a major factor in Warhammer's demise.

Is level imbalance in a level based game something new for you? Or you're just having this argument for the sake of it?

Originally posted by Xasapis

Is level imbalance in a level based game something new for you? Or you're just having this argument for the sake of it?

While it wasn't perfect, the bolster effect in warhammer was effective in addressing level imbalance in PvP. It did nothing for numerical or gear advantage, of course.

It didn't feel that effective at all when I was playing the game. Even on scenarios, where you don't have a numerical difference. The team with lots of people in the beginning of the tier was fighting an uphill battle vs the people in the end of the tier. If the end tier people were also organised, it was impossible to win.

Other games have even more severe differences in power between levels, so it's not an Aion phenomenon, but rather a byproduct of the level based design.

What may not be immediately noticeable is that along with leveling in Aion, your active and passive skills level as well. So for example, you may have smite 1, rank 4 and then take a book and learn smite 2, rank 1. The bigger tier spell will be better than the previous one, no matter the rank, but both active and passive abilities level up when you level. In this sense the gap between the level widens not only due to some resistance constant, but also due to more effective skills the higher up you are.

I have the feeling I'm derailing the thread though, so I'll stop here.

Now that you mention it...I really started to see clever antiganking design.

I never fared that good in PVP games.

But in WAR i was very good. In RVR i held the line with my Ironbreaker very often. And rained death with my Bright wizard, if i had protection of tanks. I even topped scenario scores quite often.

Why?

Because powerlevelers, twinked players, and high level characters didnt exist.

It was all on same level field!

But Aion is back to "I have more time invested in my character so you can not touch me" gank mechanism.

Sorry to say , thats not fun at all. Not to ganked and neither to ganker who wins not based on skill but on simple level disparity.

Originally posted by Xasapis

Is level imbalance in a level based game something new for you? Or you're just having this argument for the sake of it?

In Warhammer a high tier character going to a lower teir RvR zone is turned into a chicken that is insta-killed by any attack.

In Warhammer you can't queue for scenarios outside your tier.

In Warhammer there is no meaningful way (at least currently, the new apprentice system may change this somewhat) to 'twink'.

In Warhammer there is no corpse or spawn point camping. Your corpse is meaningless, save for someone to salvage, and you spawn in an area controlled by your faction.

In Warhammer a person at the lower level within their teir is automatically "blostered" any time they enter an RvR lake or SC. As previously stated, this doesn't completely level the playing field, but it helps.

If Warhammer did one thing right -- and arguably this may be the only thing -- it is prove that level imbalances in a level based PvP game could dealt with in such a way as to ensure an at least somewhat fair fight. 

There is no reason or excuse for any PvP  game to do otherwise.