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No launch will ever come without problems, lag, issues. Ever. No game on the planet. There are just too many variables involved to ensure 100 percent perfection. If you can't handle those issues, i would suggest to never, ever play an mmo within the first month of launch. |
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Originally posted by Hypodermica
This is one of those hot button topics because you are going to have people who make comments like "you can't expect perfection" so on and so forth but the question is when is a game unfinished and pushed onto the public in comparison to a game released with some bugs. There are people who swear by AOC and that the launch really wasnt that bad in my opinion as far as that game goes it was released unfinished still isn't finished and no one should be paying to play it. Now for those who were around for the launch of WOW that was a situation where the game was finished and just had bugs that needed to be worked out but missing advertised features, systems that don't work and things of that nature is unfinished product that should not be pushed out onto the public but is more and more becoming common because far too many of us are fanbois willing to pay for potential as opposed to actual product. But again this problem will persist as long as companies like AV,FC,and whoever made Fallen Earth can continue to get away with it and by gauging the responses I usually see to crap games like those it isn't going to stop for quite some time. |
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Originally posted by jaxsundane
This is one of those hot button topics because you are going to have people who make comments like "you can't expect perfection" so on and so forth but the question is when is a game unfinished and pushed onto the public in comparison to a game released with some bugs. There are people who swear by AOC and that the launch really wasnt that bad in my opinion as far as that game goes it was released unfinished still isn't finished and no one should be paying to play it. Now for those who were around for the launch of WOW that was a situation where the game was finished and just had bugs that needed to be worked out but missing advertised features, systems that don't work and things of that nature is unfinished product that should not be pushed out onto the public but is more and more becoming common because far too many of us are fanbois willing to pay for potential as opposed to actual product. But again this problem will persist as long as companies like AV,FC,and whoever made Fallen Earth can continue to get away with it and by gauging the responses I usually see to crap games like those it isn't going to stop for quite some time.
Dude....are you completely daft? I love how history changes once your past it. WoW was complete yet had some missing features that were advertised.....how is that complete again? And let me slip this tidbit past you here (Direct quote from IGN's review of WoW's launch): Somehow, Blizzard underestimated its own popularity by a massive margin, and after a rush first-week sales, there was a crush of players on too few servers. The results were angry players who often waited in 40-minute queues in order to log on, badly overcrowded zones where most of the indigenous wildlife had been wiped out, and nasty lag that caused everything from stuttering to a 10-minute wait in order to do anything with your inventory. Hm....that sounds eerily familiar; oh, except for the queue part....or here's another one from Gamespot: * Some stability issues immediately following launch So....PvP is in game, but not fully, because they haven't implemented Honor points or the battlegrounds yet, which will presumably come in a later patch. (Which it did) Now I ask again how is that complete? Fallen Earth, as it stands right now, is complete, with all the features in the game. I believe you wanted to say that 'Fallen Earth was a situation where the game was launched complete but they had some bugs to work out.' Your logic is full of holes and your mouth is full of crap. While I don't mind people comparing WoW and saying it's a better game or what have you, I do mind when you try to pass off fiction as fact. I WAS there for WoW's launch and I remember how bad it was for around 2 weeks after that. FE solved their problems within a day for the most part.
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Originally posted by Kungaloosh1 Not true, Guildwars did just that. And... Ok, no one else have pulled it off yet but it is possible, just extremly hard. You need someone like Arenanets Jeff Strain for a perfect launch (Diablo, Warcraft 3, have quited now BTW). Still, the OP have a point. MMO companies releasing the game a year too early nowadays. It isn't just some issues like lag, odd errors and and login problems. Take war. They cut out for of the 6 starting citys and several classes just a month before launch. And they have never patch in those citys as promised. They also cut all cool small things like the neat idea that the character models should change whne you level. And they totaly cut out the endgame too. One more year in development and the game would have been a very different game. Or AoC. It had really bad performance at launch and had way to little content. If they would have waited another year they would have a lot more players today. Anarchy online. DAoC. Everquest 2. Vanguard. Darkfall. They all released way too early and and lost some or many players on it, Vanguard lost most of any game because of it. I do costs a lot of money to keep a game in development longer than you have to but games like Vanguard would have won that cash many times over. |
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I blame the beta tester fanbois. When I tried beta testing this heap of junk many months ago you could not post anything negative on the beta forum wihout getting flamed. Pointing out bugs and flaws got you flamed, I kid you not. According to them everything was great, it was an awesome game. |
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Originally posted by Pipwicky
I didn't see much of that, one guy got flamed quite a bit through cb. Because he wanted everything changed everytime he tried something new, then he would degrade anyone who disagreed, because he knew better than everyone. Other than that FE had one of the better testing environments I've taken part in and I've tested many. These guys communicated freely and openly, on top of that they have Tiggs (old SWG community manager) who does her job very well. For every minute You are angry , You lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson |
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blakavar
 Advanced Member
Joined: 7/22/06
Troll says, "I'm a troll bitches. Dance!" |
Originally posted by Malickie
I didn't see much of that, one guy got flamed quite a bit through cb. Because he wanted everything changed everytime he tried something new, then he would degrade anyone who disagreed, because he knew better than everyone. Other than that FE had one of the better testing environments I've taken part in and I've tested many. These guys communicated freely and openly, on top of that they have Tiggs (old SWG community manager) who does her job very well.
Agreed, I never saw any of these flames your talking about on the beta boards. If you got flamed I'll point out maybe not posting criticisms that include things like "this heap of junk" which is pretty vague and sounds like an opinion and not a legitimate bug report. |
Originally posted by blakavar
Agreed, I never saw any of these flames your talking about on the beta boards. If you got flamed I'll point out maybe not posting criticisms that include things like "this heap of junk" which is pretty vague and sounds like an opinion and not a legitimate bug report.
You will get flamed totally if your commentry is seen as dangerous by the company concerned, especially if you have a good point to make. You will also get flamed even on websites such this because even Icarus pay staff to monitor both their own website and these external ones posing as independent players. I can understand launches are a sensitive & highly pressurized period for a new game, but the flaming can be quite aggressive and emotive. An all round great customer experience? I think not. Perhaps as one person pointed out maybe the staff have to operate in quite an aggressive blame culture. There's something there that makes them quite vicious. Flaming on their website can be co-ordinated by certain individulas I've noticed and it's done by mockery and character assination. You may even get someone reminding of terms and conditions that you signed up to when you enrolled on the game. Terms and conditions by the way you were not made aware of when you first purchased the game and not necessarily legal in some countries (If you sell a game or service subscription in other countries even though your based in another you are liable to local sales/revenue tax, of which developers like Lindenlab found out to their great cost. Local consumer protection laws can also apply.). I really wish these companies would chill out and show some patience with players. It will be to their benefit in the long term. If you have complaints about the game it's best you stick to the external websites where you may get more support from others. Be suspicious, but not paranoid of players that seem to take unreasonable stance, defending the company come what may. |
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Superqwerty: aggred but I didn't have any problems on the FE boards (pointing out problems is what I enjoy the most). I also don't think the fanbots we are seeing here or on their boards are on someone's payroll. They are simply fanbois whose job is to derail a "ranting" guy's thread so the staff can ban him/lock the thread. Fanbots usually think one can judge a game when he/she reaches lvl X or spend XXXX hours by playing it only. This is usually their last line of defense as well. They don't care whether he/she wants it make it better. I believe this is also one of the main reasons why we are being bombarded by dumbed down WoW clones and crappy games atm.
Waiting for: Guild Wars 2, The Secret World |
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Originally posted by Superqwerty
Agreed, I never saw any of these flames your talking about on the beta boards. If you got flamed I'll point out maybe not posting criticisms that include things like "this heap of junk" which is pretty vague and sounds like an opinion and not a legitimate bug report.
You will get flamed totally if your commentry is seen as dangerous by the company concerned, especially if you have a good point to make. You will also get flamed even on websites such this because even Icarus pay staff to monitor both their own website and these external ones posing as independent players. I can understand launches are a sensitive & highly pressurized period for a new game, but the flaming can be quite aggressive and emotive. An all round great customer experience? I think not. Perhaps as one person pointed out maybe the staff have to operate in quite an aggressive blame culture. There's something there that makes them quite vicious. Flaming on their website can be co-ordinated by certain individulas I've noticed and it's done by mockery and character assination. You may even get someone reminding of terms and conditions that you signed up to when you enrolled on the game. Terms and conditions by the way you were not made aware of when you first purchased the game and not necessarily legal in some countries (If you sell a game or service subscription in other countries even though your based in another you are liable to local sales/revenue tax, of which developers like Lindenlab found out to their great cost. Local consumer protection laws can also apply.). I really wish these companies would chill out and show some patience with players. It will be to their benefit in the long term. If you have complaints about the game it's best you stick to the external websites where you may get more support from others. Be suspicious, but not paranoid of players that seem to take unreasonable stance, defending the company come what may.
HAHAHAHA! Oh, that's a good one. You should go check out the forums over on Icarus' message board before you post stuff like this. Also, it would be the marketing company that posts about the game, not the actual developer. It'd be too expensive to have a guy sitting around doing nothing but answering forum posts for a developer. Next is your claim about flaming. People flame because this is the internet and they can hide behind the anonymity of their pseudonyms, without fear of retribution. Also is the lack of most type of emotive nuance that you have in RL that would change the meaning of what is said, whereas here, only the reader's emotion is applied to what is written. So a person already offended is going to read something that might be innocuous but could take it as even more offensive and reply as such. Trolls find enjoyment out of causing turmoil. Others like the feeling of power or intelligence that is brought by posting their opinions online. Whatever the reason, people become passionate about things they like and will go overboard in their defense of it. But, regardless of the 'flames' that happen, if you don't let your voice be heard, then you won't make a difference. The most basic thing is not to respond to the trolls. Not everyone on the forum is an idiot and if you are clear and concise in your points of why you like or dislike something, it will get read by people who can understand it, even if it's replied to by the trolls. By simply posting you are getting your idea out there, regardless of who responds to it. |
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Originally posted by twhint
You will get flamed totally if your commentry is seen as dangerous by the company concerned, especially if you have a good point to make. You will also get flamed even on websites such this because even Icarus pay staff to monitor both their own website and these external ones posing as independent players. I can understand launches are a sensitive & highly pressurized period for a new game, but the flaming can be quite aggressive and emotive. An all round great customer experience? I think not. Perhaps as one person pointed out maybe the staff have to operate in quite an aggressive blame culture. There's something there that makes them quite vicious. Flaming on their website can be co-ordinated by certain individulas I've noticed and it's done by mockery and character assination. You may even get someone reminding of terms and conditions that you signed up to when you enrolled on the game. Terms and conditions by the way you were not made aware of when you first purchased the game and not necessarily legal in some countries (If you sell a game or service subscription in other countries even though your based in another you are liable to local sales/revenue tax, of which developers like Lindenlab found out to their great cost. Local consumer protection laws can also apply.). I really wish these companies would chill out and show some patience with players. It will be to their benefit in the long term. If you have complaints about the game it's best you stick to the external websites where you may get more support from others. Be suspicious, but not paranoid of players that seem to take unreasonable stance, defending the company come what may.
HAHAHAHA! Oh, that's a good one. You should go check out the forums over on Icarus' message board before you post stuff like this. Also, it would be the marketing company that posts about the game, not the actual developer. It'd be too expensive to have a guy sitting around doing nothing but answering forum posts for a developer. Next is your claim about flaming. People flame because this is the internet and they can hide behind the anonymity of their pseudonyms, without fear of retribution. Also is the lack of most type of emotive nuance that you have in RL that would change the meaning of what is said, whereas here, only the reader's emotion is applied to what is written. So a person already offended is going to read something that might be innocuous but could take it as even more offensive and reply as such. Trolls find enjoyment out of causing turmoil. Others like the feeling of power or intelligence that is brought by posting their opinions online. Whatever the reason, people become passionate about things they like and will go overboard in their defense of it. But, regardless of the 'flames' that happen, if you don't let your voice be heard, then you won't make a difference. The most basic thing is not to respond to the trolls. Not everyone on the forum is an idiot and if you are clear and concise in your points of why you like or dislike something, it will get read by people who can understand it, even if it's replied to by the trolls. By simply posting you are getting your idea out there, regardless of who responds to it.
Well, I'm glad to have supplied some entertainment at least! I'm not trying to contrive a conspiracy theory and what you said is also very true. I'm just stating my own experience on some forums, not all though. I must confess I can be a bit of a trouble causing troll myself, but I can assure you I do have the best intentions at heart and although I might come across as being a bit arrogant I still think my points are valid. Funny enough I get a better response on European sites as they seemed to be more civilized in their responses. Curltural differences across the pond? I don't know. I will keep on though as you suggest, but I must admit I wonder if any of us as true players will ever make a difference? I'm afraid the true arraogance lies firmly in this industry as a whole. |
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Well if you do bug reports in game you don't have to worry about getting flamed. Most people beta test just to get an advanced taste of a game before it launches and don't truly test things. Sad but true. As for games launching early, usually that means the pre launch money has or is about to run out and the investors are demanding a return on said investment.
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cosy
 Master
Joined: 9/15/04
I helped over 300 new players in EvE, how many did you help ? |
Originally posted by parrotpholk They plan on level 150 cosy not 120. ok but the problem is still the same how u skill this npc if u only can be lvl45 atm ???? want to try eve-online ? i help you-join eve university,L2P-basic guide if you want to understand EvE-Online |
Originally posted by cosy ok but the problem is still the same how u skill this npc if u only can be lvl45 atm ????
Because the eventual plan is to release expansions that will gradually raise your level up to 150 as well as more sectors. I believe there's going to be 10 total. |
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Originally posted by cosy ok but the problem is still the same how u skill this npc if u only can be lvl45 atm ????
uh..... Group. ---------- "No, your wrong.." - Random user #123 "Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features. How are you?" -Me |
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cosy
Master
Joined: 9/15/04
I helped over 300 new players in EvE, how many did you help ? |
Originally posted by Mrbloodworth ok but the problem is still the same how u skill this npc if u only can be lvl45 atm ????
uh..... Group.
and how u tank 250-300 dmg per shot from a single NPC ? want to try eve-online ? i help you-join eve university,L2P-basic guide if you want to understand EvE-Online |
Originally posted by Kyleran
I don't understand where you get that MMORPG development teams are not being run like software development. Please enlighten me. Note that each generation of Windows generally ships with a few hundred thousand known bugs. |
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Being someone who has worked in the IT industry for over 10 years and being that I've been involved in multi-million dollar projects that involve multiple departments from multiple global offices, I can understand that a project does not always go flawlessly. Though, they have job titles for people who are experts at keeping a project rolling as smoothly as possible and in a timely manner. If projects went as terrible as MMO launches go... I can assure you that the person managing the project, would no longer have a job. Period. I used to work for Fed-Ex corporate and we regularly shared information with UPS and the USPS. We even sold some of our software to the USPS. During some of the huge IT projects we would hire a consulting team. These guys worked on massive projects for companies all over the globe. They were genuises and were paid beyond imagination for their knowledge and expertise when it comes to IT projects. They would ensure that things went smoothly, drawing from experience in their careers to help us do what we need, and not do what will cause problems. The point is, if you do something over and over and over again and EVERY time things go poorly... why keep doing it that way? To me this is insanity. Understand the process, work with other companies who have launched, find the right people to get things done the right way and whip the shareholders into place so that they understand...shut up, you'll make more money this way. No, I do understand that the company behind Fallen Earth is small though small is a thing of perception. I don't know if this entitles them to make as many mistakes as they have. With that said there are in fact some variables that are completely out of your control. Planning for them, and developing contingency are all that you can do. An old boss of mine when I had gotten started in the world of IT once told me this: Three most important things in the Information Technology field and they are: 1. Contingency 2. Contingency 3. Contingency
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Originally posted by Hypodermica
In terms of software, companies buy into contracts when they buy the software. They sign contracts with caveats that must be included in said software and agree to use it for a period of time, usually several years. /That/ is why they are more serious about bugs. And even after that, they still have parts of the contract that state what happens in the event of bugs after that, with more serious ones being fixed within a set period of time or the software company has to start paying the buying company money until it's fixed, while the minor ones just get fixed in the next regular update. With consumers, software companies don't have that safety net, nor have they been paid great sums of money for a guaranteed source of income for several years. They simply get money for the original purchase as well as some amount each month, that is not guaranteed and can only be guessed at. Why are they going to spend the millions of dollars for something like that when it has been proven over and over again that they can get away with patching it after the fact? And they're not legally liable because the game is playable. So whatever point you're trying to make is invalidated with your comparison of apples to oranges. It's two totally separate arenas. And if you really believe that these companies are fly by night that don't follow any sort of procedure, please... |
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Originally posted by Hypodermica
At last someone who agrees with me on a point of principle. Mmorpg companies seem to think the world owes them something and the customers are just treated like cattle for farming subscription and download fees. Their customer service really sucks and if a league table were formed about the level of Customer satisfaction in each industry I'm afraid mmorpgs would be a 100 steps below the last. Somehow the market has to burst their insulated bubble and think deeply about the market they are in and become Customer focused. Every industry has had to do this, I know I'm in the construction industry and we've had to learn the hard way. |
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Originally posted by twhint
In terms of software, companies buy into contracts when they buy the software. They sign contracts with caveats that must be included in said software and agree to use it for a period of time, usually several years. /That/ is why they are more serious about bugs. And even after that, they still have parts of the contract that state what happens in the event of bugs after that, with more serious ones being fixed within a set period of time or the software company has to start paying the buying company money until it's fixed, while the minor ones just get fixed in the next regular update. With consumers, software companies don't have that safety net, nor have they been paid great sums of money for a guaranteed source of income for several years. They simply get money for the original purchase as well as some amount each month, that is not guaranteed and can only be guessed at. Why are they going to spend the millions of dollars for something like that when it has been proven over and over again that they can get away with patching it after the fact? And they're not legally liable because the game is playable. So whatever point you're trying to make is invalidated with your comparison of apples to oranges. It's two totally separate arenas. And if you really believe that these companies are fly by night that don't follow any sort of procedure, please... Thanks for the reply. Even sarcastic and trollish replies are appreciated. Business to Business transactions vs. Business to Consumer transactions have nothing to do with anything I said. I'm talking about PRODUCING the product... the steps.. procedures involved. I'm surprised someone whom has been reading English for such a long time wouldn't understand this. You missing the point does not invalidate mine. If anything it "invalidates" your skills of observation. At the core of my original post (the one that started this whole discussion) as well as my latest post is this simple question: Why does the process have to be so flawed? I gave a great example/view of how a project is completed from within a company in order to show exactly how we keep a project rolling out as smoothly as possible. This includes: 1. Sharing information/project data/procedures/outlines with companies who have already launched MMO's to understand the flaws, problems, and unknowns. 2. Hire a project management team/group with experience in this exact type of project. 3. Have contingency in place. Does that make sense? Telling me that companies can still make a dollar by releasing a buggy piece of software does not make my point valid. It only proves that THERE IS ROOM FOR IMPROVEMENT !
How many customers read the complains about bugs, lag, and not logging in? How many of those are turned away? Money out the window...
How many play for a month and un-sub because they feel cheated, frustrated, or are unhappy with the launch? I don't have the numbers and I haven't done the research. I assume you don't have that information either. My guess is that by changing the process and investing more time, the pay-off would be worth it. Hell, you might even launch a Sci-Fi game a few weeks after the launch of another huge sci-fi'ish MMO like Aion so you can catch the rush of people who don't like Aion and are unsubbing rather than launching back to back and fighting a much larger company like that. |
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Originally posted by Loke666 Not true, Guildwars did just that. And... Ok, no one else have pulled it off yet but it is possible, just extremly hard. You need someone like Arenanets Jeff Strain for a perfect launch (Diablo, Warcraft 3, have quited now BTW). Still, the OP have a point. MMO companies releasing the game a year too early nowadays. It isn't just some issues like lag, odd errors and and login problems. Take war. They cut out for of the 6 starting citys and several classes just a month before launch. And they have never patch in those citys as promised. They also cut all cool small things like the neat idea that the character models should change whne you level. And they totaly cut out the endgame too. One more year in development and the game would have been a very different game. Or AoC. It had really bad performance at launch and had way to little content. If they would have waited another year they would have a lot more players today. Anarchy online. DAoC. Everquest 2. Vanguard. Darkfall. They all released way too early and and lost some or many players on it, Vanguard lost most of any game because of it. I do costs a lot of money to keep a game in development longer than you have to but games like Vanguard would have won that cash many times over.
DAoC (Dark Age of Camelot) had a nearly perfect launch, previously noted the best in the business. You can remove that from your list, but if you meant perfect as in zero problems --nothing made with this much code will ever be perfect for years until after all the bug reports/ debugging and patches take place. It is financially impossible to do that without a huge bankroll, and as risky as MMO's are, no-one would finance years of beta-testing before a product is released. To expect any game to be released 'perfect' is unrealistic. Also, with the stresses placed on a single server by /when an unexpected amount of players hit all at once, new, unexpected problems will occur (like one previous poster explained about World of Warcraft). That the majority of the issues were corrected within 24 hours is not only impressive, but show a comforting level of professionalism for those prospective subscribers apprehesive about a small "indie" company. |
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Releasing games too soon is sometimes a necessary evil. But I think if it has to be done, atleast continue to poor resources into finishing what was not finished, so the game gets up to speed as quickly as possible. |
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Originally posted by skamper
Agree This game is one of the worst I bought with Roma Victor. AOC, Vanguard, Tabula Rasa, War, and even SWG are better games. It's not only a problem of graphism, not only a problem of bugs (this game has terrible issues; take a look at official forums ), it's a problem of gameplay. It's NOT a sandbox game, it's NOT a FPS, not a Tabula Rasa like, it's a very very very mediocre game, but not a cheap one. Stay away. NB i'm not a troller, and played many many many mmorpgs, and was a beta tester for some mmorpgs. I can't understand why i payed for this... ah yeah thx to fanboys who told me it was the new sandbox game. it is NOT. It's another clone, but a bad one : boring and repetitive quests, ridiculous graphisms (omg the world ), full of bugs.
http://forums.fallenearth.com/fallenearth/ before buying, wait for a trial (LOL ) and take a look to official forumsforums.fallenearth.com/fallenearth/ Some links http://forums.fallenearth.com/fallenearth/showthread.php?t=22864 |
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I've played many MMO's over the years. I've yet to see one that was finished. You are playing a video game. By definition that means you are not hardcore. |
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