I just dont' understand the sandbox fanboy bashing theme park games.

As good as UO is, it's peek subscriber is 250,000.  I won't call it a huge success.

People dont' play sandbox game, because they dont' want to play sandbox game. 

Just because you want to play sandbox game don't mean everyone want to play it.

If MMOs had not evolved the way they had, we still would be at UO numbers of people playing MMOs. It NEVER would have left the tiny niche UO gamers were compared to gamers at a whole. I respect your views on gaming, OP, but about 95% of gamers would NEVER EVER have played a MMO at all under the circumstances you mention. Prolly UO would have remained a one time experiement with out EQ, and the idea of MMOs would have died out by now.

 Games these days have been made stupid easy in reaction to EQ.  That or people have become increasingly stupid and babified.  When people complain about current MMO's not being good enough they should have to play EQ as punishment.

Originally posted by Netzoko 

 

 the pulling mechanism you mention is the reason PvE is such a boring and skilless activity.

 

Tell that to some of the monks or bards I knew, lol. Skill-less, hardly.
 

Oh come on stop it... you're killin' me here.    EQ  bad?   hahehehaaaa

Ken

Personally I think the "terrible influence" EQ had on the genre was making players enamored of masochistic gameplay.  We're going along fine with death mechanics in games basically resetting you to the start of a level, then EQ comes along and makes it really damn painful, tedious, and downright boring -- but even today we have residual players who genuinely think that was a good idea.

Don't try to put that stuff off on EQ.  EQ was a great game, look towards WoW for fault in today's games if anything.  My theory is developers don't really care about quality gaming, they just want subscription numbers to keep a moderate/sucky game alive to keep making money for other moderate/crappy games to suck money out of.

PS: Some people enjoy grinding.

Originally posted by Gameloading

To be blunt, the problem with Ultima Online is that it was controlled by nerds.

LOL!!!! 

And EQ had what? the cool kids controlling it?

LOL! seriously.

Originally posted by dreamer05

Don't try to put that stuff off on EQ.  EQ was a great game, look towards WoW for fault in today's games if anything.  My theory is developers don't really care about quality gaming, they just want subscription numbers to keep a moderate/sucky game alive to keep making money for other moderate/crappy games to suck money out of.

 

PS: Some people enjoy grinding.

What SoE has been doing for years with EQ, much worse than Blizzard. They introduced a cash shop, gender change, extra items through cardgame, the marketplace with XP potions and items.

Oh boy, don't get me started on SoE and their raping of every game.

EQ might have been the better game in 1996-2000, but WoW has been managed 10 times better than EQ has.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Personally I think the "terrible influence" EQ had on the genre was making players enamored of masochistic gameplay.  We're going along fine with death mechanics in games basically resetting you to the start of a level, then EQ comes along and makes it really damn painful, tedious, and downright boring -- but even today we have residual players who genuinely think that was a good idea.

  There is zero challange in the hardships of old, nearly ALL of them were nothing but timesinks.

Originally posted by bastii

Originally posted by dreamer05

Don't try to put that stuff off on EQ.  EQ was a great game, look towards WoW for fault in today's games if anything.  My theory is developers don't really care about quality gaming, they just want subscription numbers to keep a moderate/sucky game alive to keep making money for other moderate/crappy games to suck money out of.

 

PS: Some people enjoy grinding.

 

What SoE has been doing for years with EQ, much worse than Blizzard. They introduced a cash shop, gender change, extra items through cardgame, the marketplace with XP potions and items.

Oh boy, don't get me started on SoE and their raping of every game.

EQ might have been the better game in 1996-2000, but WoW has been managed 10 times better than EQ has.

I wasn't discussing companies behind games. I don't have a particular liking of SoE and know their dirty history. However my point being;

EQ had me addicted and interested for years, I literally would skip meals to play the game.

WoW= Bought it, played it, every single time I fall alseep, and that's with cafeine in me! I even gave it multiple tries, just can't stand it, bores me to tears.

EQ was groundbreaking and a love for many many people, and in a way so is WoW for its fans.  Howevever, EQ isn't to be blamed for any mistakes games are making now, this genre has switched its sight and goals completely since EQ was running hot.

Originally posted by dreamer05

Originally posted by bastii

Originally posted by dreamer05

Don't try to put that stuff off on EQ.  EQ was a great game, look towards WoW for fault in today's games if anything.  My theory is developers don't really care about quality gaming, they just want subscription numbers to keep a moderate/sucky game alive to keep making money for other moderate/crappy games to suck money out of.

 

PS: Some people enjoy grinding.

 

What SoE has been doing for years with EQ, much worse than Blizzard. They introduced a cash shop, gender change, extra items through cardgame, the marketplace with XP potions and items.

Oh boy, don't get me started on SoE and their raping of every game.

EQ might have been the better game in 1996-2000, but WoW has been managed 10 times better than EQ has.

 

I wasn't discussing companies behind games. I don't have a particular liking of SoE and know their dirty history. However my point being;

EQ had me addicted and interested for years, I literally would skip meals to play the game.

WoW= Bought it, played it, every single time I fall alseep, and that's with cafeine in me! I even gave it multiple tries, just can't stand it, bores me to tears.

 

EQ was groundbreaking and a love for many many people, and in a way so is WoW for its fans.  Howevever, EQ isn't to be blamed for any mistakes games are making now, this genre has switched its sight and goals completely since EQ was running hot.

agree with that

Originally posted by Netzoko

That's right, I said it. EQ hurt the genre in a large way. If EQ didn't exist, those players would have played UO, and instead of the huge array of grindy ass level based pieces of garbage we have today, we would instead have virtual worlds. Worlds in which the players decide what to do with their time in game, as well as their characters. A world where death matters, and where items don't come from hours raiding shitty AI bosses in dungeons, but rather the hands and design of the players.

EQ is the reason we have shit like WoW, LOTR, and the newest disgust, Aion. You follow the A to B painted pathway the game gives you, you kill repetitive mobs over, and over, and over. Then the fun begins right? Yeah, you get to grind for gear! Then what you ask? Well then the dev releases an expansion, and you get MORE gear! Isn't that a great game formula?

Honest to god, go back in time and delete EQ. We sure sure as hell have less shitty copies of a shitty game for 10 god damn years. On the positive side, however, we would have real massively multiplayer worlds, not single player RPGs with a few other people playing the same single player RPG. This forum is filled with dismay for the genre. You know what? Kick out every EQ clone and you are left with some damn good games. Interesting, isnt it?

I played eq1 from 1999 to  2005 , it's post like this that make lol and see that this person never played eq1 in it's original state .
 

It was WOW that had a chance to redefine the genre, once MMOs went 3d and mainstream it was too late.

Why can't the genre be big enough for all types of games?  Just because you enjoy old school sandbox games doesn't mean every game should follow in that footstep. 

I don't think EQ was the downfall of sandbox games, it was sandbox games that were their own downfall.

UO was an extremely fun game, but at the same time it was the first of its kind.  It was far from a picture perfect model and yes later games should have improved upon that.  However most future sandbox games post UO were terrible, incomplete and just shoddy by design.  Dark and light, Shadowbane, SWG, etc. 

In the end if sandbox games were better more people would play them, but sandly they were not.  It is going to take something pretty special to make them look viable again.

I wonder if the OP realizes that his argument rounds down to "Thanks Everquest. You gave people a choice, and they picked you."

If Everquest had never come out, another title would have simply taken its place. Ultima Online's initial success was bred because players had NO CHOICE. It's as if there was only one soft drink on the market, and it was Mr Pib. It's not necessarily a bad drink, and not everyone likes it, but it's your only choice for a fizzy drink. Then Coke comes out and everyone flocks to it, and future soft drinks take the Coke formula and expand on it. Then the Mr. Pib fanboys are whining because they're no longer the majority.

That's why the developers were forced to release the Trammel expansion. If Ultima Online was the same as it was in 1997, the player base would be even smaller, if it hadn't shut down completely. Players flocked to Everquest when it was released in 1999. I stand by the age old phrase, "If you don't like it, don't play it," but there comes a time when a company looks at their product and says "You know, no one is playing it." That's why Trammel was released, and if Origin was wrong, players wouldn't have left the original facet a wasteland.

If Everquest had never come out, Ultima would have had just a couple more years until someone else took the dive. The truth remains, as seen in Darkfall, that fully unrestricted PvP is not popular. It's hanging somewhere at the lower end of the niche spectrum, next to Milli Vanilli fans.

Everquest didn't ruin anything, if anything they saved the MMO genre.

Originally posted by Omali

I wonder if the OP realizes that his argument rounds down to "Thanks Everquest. You gave people a choice, and they picked you."

If Everquest had never come out, another title would have simply taken its place. Ultima Online's initial success was bred because players had NO CHOICE. It's as if there was only one soft drink on the market, and it was Mr Pib. It's not necessarily a bad drink, and not everyone likes it, but it's your only choice for a fizzy drink. Then Coke comes out and everyone flocks to it, and future soft drinks take the Coke formula and expand on it. Then the Mr. Pib fanboys are whining because they're no longer the majority.

That's why the developers were forced to release the Trammel expansion. If Ultima Online was the same as it was in 1997, the player base would be even smaller, if it hadn't shut down completely. Players flocked to Everquest when it was released in 1999. I stand by the age old phrase, "If you don't like it, don't play it," but there comes a time when a company looks at their product and says "You know, no one is playing it." That's why Trammel was released, and if Origin was wrong, players wouldn't have left the original facet a wasteland.

If Everquest had never come out, Ultima would have had just a couple more years until someone else took the dive. The truth remains, as seen in Darkfall, that fully unrestricted PvP is not popular. It's hanging somewhere at the lower end of the niche spectrum, next to Milli Vanilli fans.

Everquest didn't ruin anything, if anything they saved the MMO genre.

Very well put.

The genre has simply changed, not in a way I would have picked mind you but we either go with the flow or we switch genres, its that simple.

Put it simply, just because you like sandbox game, dont' mean everyone else have to like sandbox game.

To the OP, levels existed before UO, especially in terms of MUDs and PnP games. So to say that levels are bad because you personally decree it doesn't follow. And as for raiding from the second or third post; MUDs had raids too. The entire concept of the dungeon crawl was nothing more than a raid. Many a player of a Copper or Diku derivative remembers raiding Dracula's castle, or some other stock zone (killing trash mobs and then moving on to the actual boss that could have taken anywhere between a few minutes to an hour and a half to kill).

But back to the point of the OP's decree, UO's system was an utter failure due to the fact that people can and do minmax. That is the nature of humans in terms of their existence; seeking the maximum of one's own 'psychic' (psychological) profit (or in other terms: the reduction in uneasiness or pain in one's life). In theory, skill systems are meant to avoid an abusive expression of minmaxing, but the reality is that even in UO the atypical tankmage was possible, and no amount of apologetics will negate that fact. All one can do is find more novel means to allow for minmaxing to lead to alternative expressions and/or specializations. In this fashion, then a skill system can be useful, but special pleading to nostalgia and keeping up the cognitive dissonance of the utter failure that was (and is) UO won't ever lead anywhere positive or fruitful.

Originally posted by metalhead980

Originally posted by Gameloading

To be blunt, the problem with Ultima Online is that it was controlled by nerds.

LOL!!!! 

And EQ had what? the cool kids controlling it?

LOL! seriously.

Nobody could really bother you in Everquest. Sure they might take your kill but that's pretty much it.

In old Ultima Online, a player could kill you and loot your corpse.

Originally posted by Gameloading

Originally posted by metalhead980

Originally posted by Gameloading

To be blunt, the problem with Ultima Online is that it was controlled by nerds.

LOL!!!! 

And EQ had what? the cool kids controlling it?

LOL! seriously.

 

Nobody could really bother you in Everquest. Sure they might take your kill but that's pretty much it.

In old Ultima Online, a player could kill you and loot your corpse.

So PKers are nerds now? that's pretty messed up dude.

I always though the strict Pve/RP players were a little nerdy myself.   Not the guys that liked pvp and war.

Oh btw, EQ had pvp rule set servers also, so I guess EQ had "nerds" too lol.

Originally posted by laokoko

Put it simply, just because you like sandbox game, dont' mean everyone else have to like sandbox game.

I totally agree. Honestly, If all of you guys played my sandbox games I would leave. I can't stand near 99% of this community as is.

You guys are like one big buzz kill. Please for the love of all that is holy stay in your themeparks, enjoy the tea cup rides.

Originally posted by ladyattis

UO's system was an utter failure due to the fact that people can and do minmax. That is the nature of humans in terms of their existence; seeking the maximum of one's own 'psychic' (psychological) profit (or in other terms: the reduction in uneasiness or pain in one's life). In theory, skill systems are meant to avoid an abusive expression of minmaxing, but the reality is that even in UO the atypical tankmage was possible, and no amount of apologetics will negate that fact. All one can do is find more novel means to allow for minmaxing to lead to alternative expressions and/or specializations. In this fashion, then a skill system can be useful, but special pleading to nostalgia and keeping up the cognitive dissonance of the utter failure that was (and is) UO won't ever lead anywhere positive or fruitful.

Exactly. I never really understood this advertisement of a game as being "level-less." The game still has levels, just no aesthetic main level. Spreading the levels across various stats does not make the game "level-less," and it always annoys me when a developer advertises it as having no levels. It's like saying your ice cream has no peanuts because rather than topping with whole peanutes, you slapchopped them and mixed it into the ice cream.

In fact, the Minmaxing in titles like Ultima Online is worse than "level" MMOs. Instead of a level 35 with the power of a level 40, you wind up with a maxed out player who can kill a new player in just a couple hits. The idea that somehow removing levels will remove the "you'll never be able to beat them" factor of "leveled" titles is a farce. I spent the first few days of my short month in Darkfall logging on for about a half an hour. I was unable to play because Alfari characters were ganking newbies at the starting zones, and when I asked for help in the race channel, I was told that I should cancel my subscription. I did.

South Park hit the nail on the head with their World of Warcraft episode, although they picked the wrong game. Something along those lines will never happen in WoW, but it is an accurate representation of what goes on in the old Ultima Online and now in games like Darkfall. You just wind up with players going around ganking players far lower level than them, with no incentive other than to be an ass, anonymously mind you.

I have to side with Metalhead on this one. I always figured it was the "nerds" who preferred to dive into the game's lore, questing, etc, while the PvP is mainly held by the more twitch-based players.
At least, that seemed to be the breakdown of demographics in most MMOs I've played.

TROLL