Originally posted by sylum69

So back to the topic at hand, what details have been released about the Xbox360/mmo fees? When can we expect Champions on the 360?

Last i heard there was some sort of problem, cant recall what, but that has been awhile back.

Originally posted by dhayes68

Personally I believe xbox compatibilty is what ruined AoC and possibly Champions Online as far as the heavy instancing and the general shallowness of the gameplay of both games. From what I've read about STO seems like they may be heading down the same road. Always lots of reasons for the design decisions given but console compatibility has to make a huge impact.

After playing AoC, I can't see myself playing another MMO designed to be a console port.  I really wanted to play STO, but the fact that it's being dumbed down to run on a console makes me lean toward passing unless I get into beta to check it out.  Maybe all the instancing won't be as immersion breaking in a game where you're warping between systems and beaming down to planets, especially if they use cutscenes to mask the load screens.

Originally posted by sylum69

So back to the topic at hand, what details have been released about the Xbox360/mmo fees? When can we expect Champions on the 360?

The problem "grandpa gamer" was talking about is that Cryptic and Microsoft couldn't agree on what the fees would be for an MMO on the Xbox. Microsoft is firm on the issue that ANY multi-player game content should only be available to people who are paying money for access to their Gold Xbox live service. Cryptic knows that people aren't going to want to pay both a monthly fee for the game AND for Xbox live, so they want the game to be available to people using the regular silver level of service.

Some staff member from MMORPG.com was running around a few weeks ago telling everyone that Cryptic and Microsoft had finally come to an agreement, but I've seen no official evidence of that and nothing else seems to have happened in the last few weeks which shows any progress has been made in bringing either CO or STO to the Xbox.

Honestly I hope that both Cryptic and Microsoft turn out to be too stubborn to ever agree on anything and that both games stay on the PC. Despite what game developers these days think, a game des NOT need to be released on every single available platform to be a success and games always benefit if they receive a great deal of focus on getting them to their best possible preformance on a single platform.

Originally posted by DerekGordon

Yes Star Trek will be on both PC and 360. Just like Champions Online.

Atari/Cryptic were able to work out a deal with both games.

I've seen no info from cryptic about STO being confirmed for 360. It's PC only so far. Can you link anything officially saying they are making a console version?

Originally posted by sdgd

Originally posted by DerekGordon

Yes Star Trek will be on both PC and 360. Just like Champions Online.

Atari/Cryptic were able to work out a deal with both games.

 

I've seen no info from cryptic about STO being confirmed for 360. It's PC only so far. Can you link anything officially saying they are making a console version?

All ive heard is a guy at gamestop told me CO was coming to PS3 the first of the year. But again, who knows?  Other than FFXIV i dont think anything has been officially released about it.

 I think they wil probably see how well the take up of champions online is before they make a decision about STO

That would definitely make sense.

 indeeedy. CO will decide

Well, first of all, Microsoft will not charge for running an MMO on the Xbox.At least according to rules they've set down. I think the fee structure issues is due to the MT stores in CO and STO.

I certainly hope that consoles are kept in mind for STO. Anything they do that broadens the potential audience and provides for a larger customer and therfore increases the likelihood of success is good to me.

If its true i will be playing STO on my 360. I already have my pre order for CO for the 360 cant wait. I am playing CO woth my 360 on my computer. The game is so much easier to play with a controler then mouse and keyboard. I hope STO will be the same.

---

Originally posted by WarpVis
I certainly hope that consoles are kept in mind for STO. Anything they do that broadens the potential audience and provides for a larger customer and therfore increases the likelihood of success is good to me.

---

Seconded. If done correctly, like FFXI, it could really broaden the adoption of the game. I do hope that they provide an engine that is capable of performing beyond the system specs of a several year old 360, though. That would be pretty limiting for people with newer systems.

I think the argument of why people say that when you design a game based on console there is a simple fact of interface controls which usually means limiting the use of a game. Consoles of course are played with basically a joystick which now a-days is known as a game pad. Usually 12 buttons and two different toggle controllers. While with a pc you basically have unlimited control with fast mouse clicking and all the keys of a keyboard available to you and of course the combo's there in.

When designing for a console, I am sure everyone will agree the GUI or interface has to be controller friendly, it has been proven over and over again that the mouse and keyboard combo are just faster in the way they are used and response times. So to make a game "Playable" "easier" IE "dumb down" a game for a console must conform to the basic controllers that it uses. Which in the end is again what was stated above. Not to mention the argument with pc's upgrading more quickly then a console ever will in hardware.

While some console games can be said to be very complicated in depth, the question of design is actually different. Take a game like swg as so many like to reference too. Even thou they re-did the combat in that game , it doesn't change the fact that the game is so deep that attempting to play it on a console at this point would be a daunting task. Namely working with the crafting system, moving items within your house , interacting with the community at the same time attempting to control your character. This is a perfect example of how a game complexity has to be simplified to fit the console genre.

In this we look at a game like STO and say "geez, this means abc only no abcdefghijk... " and so on. IE simplifying the game and or dumbing it down for console play. In the end it "does" in fact effect the way a game is designed. CO being the prime example of this, has basically a power set limit and controls to make it easier for a console player to manipulate. Because the design from the outset was designed around said concept of console, this limits it's abilities to go beyond the basic say 12 button system.

To finalize my point, I call people to look up (if they haven't played it) one game that attempted the cross platform on the same server having pc and console players play to gather. Not only did the console people get dominated, the game failed due to such an unbalanced game due to controls. (Sure the game itself wasn't all the great ) but in the end it was the pc player that just dominated the console player due to controls. This is a prime example of how a game can and is basically dumbed down for console play. Look up the game called "shadowrun".

Nuff said.

(ps. Even with all this in mind I still will play it, I am just a die hard st fan so they could sell me a piece of paper with a drawn ship on it and i probably would get it, ya, that's sad i know hehe)
 

Originally posted by chaintm

To finalize my point, I call people to look up (if they haven't played it) one game that attempted the cross platform on the same server having pc and console players play to gather. Not only did the console people get dominated, the game failed due to such an unbalanced game due to controls. (Sure the game itself wasn't all the great ) but in the end it was the pc player that just dominated the console player due to controls. This is a prime example of how a game can and is basically dumbed down for console play. Look up the game called "shadowrun".

Nuff said.

 

To be blunt your point is garbage, *mod edit*

FFXI cross platforms on same server

Nuff Said

Actually no its not I want to rub it in a little more. There is no advantage to playing ffxi on PC other than a small graphics tweak. I claimed highly camped HNM's serveral times on Ps2. Controls are not dumbed down for console, its just slightly different from the norm.

Given the economics of the current gaming situation it'd be more surprising to hear that a top-shelf mmo title wasn't being designed with console support.

I think one of the problems with MMO's today is that we're in a transitional period where investors are demanding console platform support for an MMO, but dev's haven't really figured out how to deliver it while keeping the traditional mmo community happy. (I'm lookin at you AoC)

Admittedly I prefer the PC platform and all the complexity and potential openess it allows over a console which by its very nature implies a certain simplicity (and certainly some game design decisions of STO favor simplicity over complexity), but perhaps that just means it ain't been done right yet.

Here's hoping it gets done right soon.

Originally posted by toddze

Originally posted by chaintm

To finalize my point, I call people to look up (if they haven't played it) one game that attempted the cross platform on the same server having pc and console players play to gather. Not only did the console people get dominated, the game failed due to such an unbalanced game due to controls. (Sure the game itself wasn't all the great ) but in the end it was the pc player that just dominated the console player due to controls. This is a prime example of how a game can and is basically dumbed down for console play. Look up the game called "shadowrun".

Nuff said.

 

 

To be blunt your point is garbage, *mod edit*

FFXI cross platforms on same server

Nuff Said

Actually no its not I want to rub it in a little more. There is no advantage to playing ffxi on PC other than a small graphics tweak. I claimed highly camped HNM's serveral times on Ps2. Controls are not dumbed down for console, its just slightly different from the norm.

Horrible excample, FFXI has no challenge about it in terms of gameplay, the grind of mobs hack and slash (suprise just as shadowrun was) is no excample of a general MMO. There are exceptions on both sides , so alas your excample doesn't dispute anything about control issues in console vs pc, you can't win the argument, it's like saying the sky is blue when it actually isn't, only the sea makes it seem blue, but then again if you want to "simplify it" you can say it's blue.

With the game pad one joystick can be used like a mouse over the GUI, while the other controls movement. Maybe this will get MMOs out those boring stand and shoot fest and we will finally see some realistic movement as people actually try to manuvre as they fight.

Originally posted by chaintm

Originally posted by toddze

Originally posted by chaintm

To finalize my point, I call people to look up (if they haven't played it) one game that attempted the cross platform on the same server having pc and console players play to gather. Not only did the console people get dominated, the game failed due to such an unbalanced game due to controls. (Sure the game itself wasn't all the great ) but in the end it was the pc player that just dominated the console player due to controls. This is a prime example of how a game can and is basically dumbed down for console play. Look up the game called "shadowrun".

Nuff said.

 

 

To be blunt your point is garbage, *mod edit*

FFXI cross platforms on same server

Nuff Said

Actually no its not I want to rub it in a little more. There is no advantage to playing ffxi on PC other than a small graphics tweak. I claimed highly camped HNM's serveral times on Ps2. Controls are not dumbed down for console, its just slightly different from the norm.

 

Horrible excample, FFXI has no challenge about it in terms of gameplay, the grind of mobs hack and slash (suprise just as shadowrun was) is no excample of a general MMO. There are exceptions on both sides , so alas your excample doesn't dispute anything about control issues in console vs pc, you can't win the argument, it's like saying the sky is blue when it actually isn't, only the sea makes it seem blue, but then again if you want to "simplify it" you can say it's blue.

 

There is no challenging MMO game play. Hello Kitty online to WoW to EvE to FFXI to free relms to any other mainstream mmo of your choosing. MMO's by nature are designed so that a 90 year dude to a kid can play. (As long as he understands the concepts) MMO's acheive that.

Most MMO's is a hack and slash hotbar spamming mess of a grind of mobs with the exception of heavy PvP centric games.

Your right I cant win the argument because you have already chosen to stick your fingers in your ears and go nah nah nah nah nah.

And yes its been done poorly in the past, it has also been done exceptionally well with ffxi. I expect that SE with FFXIV will improve upon the UI further, proving again that it can be done just fine.

Guys calm down, before mods have to intervene.

Basically, this is a microcosm of the console vs pc argument, which no one wins at either.

Here is the list of assumptions made on both sides, which the other side doesn't share:

• PC audience is more mature
• Consoles are easier to develop for
• Consoles have simpler gameplay
• Consoles have inferior games
• PC games have expensive game requirements
• PC gamers are elitist

Those assumptions are why no agreement can be made. I haven't even read this thread, but I bet these arguments have been used at some point, correct?

The thing is, its hard to argue superiority for either consoles or PCs, because everyone has individual preferences. Some people like having games with 10,000 commands. Others don't. The ones who love uber-amounts of commands consider all games on consoles "crap" simply because of that fact. Fair enough, but really a silly reason to dismiss a game.

That means that they miss out on absolutely fun and brilliant games like Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, and Rayman 2: The Great Escape.

So really, can we avoid the name-calling and the flaming please? Without making a compromise on assumptions you've made about Consoles and/or PCs, you will not agree, ever.

Originally posted by Brenelael

Originally posted by DerekGordon

Yes Star Trek will be on both PC and 360. Just like Champions Online.

Atari/Cryptic were able to work out a deal with both games.

Actually from the last interview with Jack Emmert concerning the Xbox version of CO he said they are having some difficulties negotiating a subscription plan with Microsoft over the Xbox version of CO. Jack has stated that they have the Xbox version all ready to ship but MS is standing in their way at the moment. This is a monumental moment in the future of console based MMOs as this move by MS is casting a dark cloud over the future of not only CO and STO for consoles but all future MMOs on consoles. Unless Cryptic and Microsoft can reach an agreement over this there may be no STO for Xbox 360.

 

The problem lies in the fact that Cryptic wants CO to be available to Xbox 360 Silver members(non-paying) and Microsoft is standing firm that only Gold members(paying) should have access to any multiplayer content on the Xbox Live service. Unless they can work this out there may be no CO or STO on the Xbox 360.

 

Bren

Could you give me a link to this info please? I am just asking because you can already play FFXI and Phantasy Star online on the 360 with Silver accounts.

Originally posted by toddze

Originally posted by chaintm

Originally posted by toddze

Originally posted by chaintm

To finalize my point, I call people to look up (if they haven't played it) one game that attempted the cross platform on the same server having pc and console players play to gather. Not only did the console people get dominated, the game failed due to such an unbalanced game due to controls. (Sure the game itself wasn't all the great ) but in the end it was the pc player that just dominated the console player due to controls. This is a prime example of how a game can and is basically dumbed down for console play. Look up the game called "shadowrun".

Nuff said.

 

 

To be blunt your point is garbage, *mod edit*

FFXI cross platforms on same server

Nuff Said

Actually no its not I want to rub it in a little more. There is no advantage to playing ffxi on PC other than a small graphics tweak. I claimed highly camped HNM's serveral times on Ps2. Controls are not dumbed down for console, its just slightly different from the norm.

 

Horrible excample, FFXI has no challenge about it in terms of gameplay, the grind of mobs hack and slash (suprise just as shadowrun was) is no excample of a general MMO. There are exceptions on both sides , so alas your excample doesn't dispute anything about control issues in console vs pc, you can't win the argument, it's like saying the sky is blue when it actually isn't, only the sea makes it seem blue, but then again if you want to "simplify it" you can say it's blue.

 

 

There is no challenging MMO game play. Hello Kitty online to WoW to EvE to FFXI to free relms to any other mainstream mmo of your choosing. MMO's by nature are designed so that a 90 year dude to a kid can play. (As long as he understands the concepts) MMO's acheive that.

Most MMO's is a hack and slash hotbar spamming mess of a grind of mobs with the exception of heavy PvP centric games.

Your right I cant win the argument because you have already chosen to stick your fingers in your ears and go nah nah nah nah nah.

And yes its been done poorly in the past, it has also been done exceptionally well with ffxi. I expect that SE with FFXIV will improve upon the UI further, proving again that it can be done just fine.

 

Not to mention the sky appears blue because of light refraction through tiny water droplets in the upper atmosphere and has nothing to do with the ocean. Only the blue part of the light makes it through the refraction process and is why the sky appears blue. If your going to use a science example to make your point at least know what you're talking about. Sorry for the off topic post.

Bren

Originally posted by Lazarus71

Originally posted by Brenelael

Originally posted by DerekGordon

Yes Star Trek will be on both PC and 360. Just like Champions Online.

Atari/Cryptic were able to work out a deal with both games.

Actually from the last interview with Jack Emmert concerning the Xbox version of CO he said they are having some difficulties negotiating a subscription plan with Microsoft over the Xbox version of CO. Jack has stated that they have the Xbox version all ready to ship but MS is standing in their way at the moment. This is a monumental moment in the future of console based MMOs as this move by MS is casting a dark cloud over the future of not only CO and STO for consoles but all future MMOs on consoles. Unless Cryptic and Microsoft can reach an agreement over this there may be no STO for Xbox 360.

 

The problem lies in the fact that Cryptic wants CO to be available to Xbox 360 Silver members(non-paying) and Microsoft is standing firm that only Gold members(paying) should have access to any multiplayer content on the Xbox Live service. Unless they can work this out there may be no CO or STO on the Xbox 360.

 

Bren

Could you give me a link to this info please? I am just asking because you can already play FFXI and Phantasy Star online on the 360 with Silver accounts.

I would if I could but sadly I can't remember where I read it. It was attached to an interview with Jack Emmert about Champions just after it released. I don't think Jack actually said that part of it. It was just the interviewer explaining what was going on with the Xbox 360 release of champions at the end of the article. Jack only actually said that they were having difficulties negotiating a payment model with Microsoft over CO. Jack also stated that CO for Xbox 360 was all ready to ship and only Microsoft was standing in their way at this point. That was all he actually stated in the interview part of the article however so take the part you highlighted above however you choose.

Bren

Originally posted by ZerothLaw

Basically, this is a microcosm of the console vs pc argument, which no one wins at either.

Here is the list of assumptions made on both sides, which the other side doesn't share:

• PC audience is more mature
• Consoles are easier to develop for
• Consoles have simpler gameplay
• Consoles have inferior games
• PC games have expensive game requirements
• PC gamers are elitist

Those assumptions are why no agreement can be made. I haven't even read this thread, but I bet these arguments have been used at some point, correct?

The thing is, its hard to argue superiority for either consoles or PCs, because everyone has individual preferences. Some people like having games with 10,000 commands. Others don't. The ones who love uber-amounts of commands consider all games on consoles "crap" simply because of that fact. Fair enough, but really a silly reason to dismiss a game.

That means that they miss out on absolutely fun and brilliant games like Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, and Rayman 2: The Great Escape.

So really, can we avoid the name-calling and the flaming please? Without making a compromise on assumptions you've made about Consoles and/or PCs, you will not agree, ever.

/agree

Everyone has their own tastes in games, and the platform that they are presented on. I'm happy to say I enjoy both PC and Console games equally. In my opinion, you simply cannot beat a PC controlled RTS using a keyboard and mouse. Many say this is true of PC FPS games as well, but I actually enjoy an FPS more when using a controller. It all comes down to personal preference.

There is no solid reason why STO couldn't become an enjoyable multiplatform title down the road. If you think about it, there's only been one other true MMO in the past that has crossed the barriers of not 2, but 3 platforms. And it has enjoyed very respectable success for a long amount of time, though dwindling as of late. FFXI. So far thats a 100% success rate for true MMOs that were actually released for PC & Console.

I think it's only natural that MMOGs get a stronger footing in the console market over the next few years. It's practically an untapped 'venue', and a very big one at that. It is worthy to note however, that Bill Roper has been quoted as saying that If/When the 360 CO port arrives, it will be played on a seperate shard system from the PC client. So it looks like the clash of the PC and Console players might not be such a big problem for many people who don't want to experience it, for whatever reason they may have.

I just hope that Cryptic can come to a reasonable agreement with the software giants in play here. I'd like to see STO become a succes, so it will surely grow and evolve with high quality content and new game mechanics over the years. It's in everyone's best interest that enjoys the game. I say the more, the merrier.

I'm okay with it so long as they don't stop making the games for PC as well. That'd be a true kick in the teeth.

This is what all of these types of arguments are about. The death of PC gaming, which has been predicted for a long time and has yet to come to pass.  I doubt we will see it anytime soon but some must believe it to have a continued hatred for consoles.  I remember one post even going so far to say consoles would be dead in a few years. Get a grip folks, console and PC have and will continue to coexist.