An interesting example to think about is the airline industry. There was, and still is, a huge move to reduce the essential cost of the seat on the flight but then charge extra for anything and everything you could possibly charge for. Baggage fees for example. Sure, you've paid for yourself, but now you have to pay extra for your bag.

This pisses people off. Seriously. As someone else said, it just leaves a sour taste in your mouth. It makes the companies look sleazy and underhanded.

This is so true that I've now seen airlines advertising themselves entirely on the basis that there are no baggage fees. These are expensive television adds... so my guess is someone has done the research and found just how much people hate these sorts of microtransactions.

I'm surprised that Bioware would wish to even be seen thinking about such a grabby and underhanded practice. The devil is in the detail though, and it doesn't have to be bad. The problem is, and here I agree with other posters here, is that this detail can change once you become an invested player. For this reason alone I'd prefer that Bioware took the high road and stayed away from MT altogether. It just makes me feel more comfortable as a paying customer.

I think that a majority of Western players would rather play a game with a slightly higher monthly fee than deal with RMT.  We understand inflation over time, but we like to know up front what we will be paying for something.  and no, I do not think this game is being developed more for Asian than Western markets.  I say if they need RMT as a payment model to succeed in Asian markets then go ahead and offer it there.  No reason we have to have a unified global payment model.

I have played a few games with RMT before and I have hated it each time.  There is no way to say you are only selling things that don't affect gameplay.... as almost any in-game item or ability affects gameplay.  If I have to run all over the map like a chump while other players can fast travel, that affects gameplay.  If for a few bucks you can look cooler than me, that affects gameplay.  In a game where your character is essentially a walking trophy case, I see any visual improvements as gameplay elements.  It doesn't have to unbalance PvP combat to affect the game for you.  I'm not complaining because I can't afford these purchases.  I know me and I would by the stuff... all of it. I'm a completist, it's why I play MMOs.  I just like to know what I'm getting from a game and for how much.  I don't want to pay 50 bucks a month for an MMO, $1.99 at a time.

well this just changed my mind.... I've played a game with micro transactions before and I hated it.  Before now I was on the fence as to which game I would play... but now?  Final Fantasy XIV here I come

Originally posted by Hendo255

well this just changed my mind.... I've played a game with micro transactions before and I hated it.  Before now I was on the fence as to which game I would play... but now?  Final Fantasy XIV here I come

Keep your fingers crossed.

I would bet that the subscription will be $20.00 a month with MT. And I wouldn't be surprised if its not $30.00 a month thats the price of a cup of coffee a day. LA is a crazy person and the work that Bioware is putting into this mmo will open the door too the excuse too up the subscription.

If they want to go free with MT, OR sub with no MT, I'm fine with it.

But if they want to include both? I don't care how good the game is or how much I'm looking forward to playing it. As someone else said, doing both is the same as charging a fee for luggage after already paying for a flight. No one likes it, and I won't support it.

Still, as they haven't made any announcement yet about payment plans, I'm not writing TOR off yet.

I have a feeling RMT is more of an emotional issue, and here’s why.

Keep in mind it's not really just the RMT system most people despise in MMOs, it's more then likely the mechanics of Asian MMOs that people fear, which in the end boils down to a different play style all together. Some Asian MMOs fail in the West because the mechanics are just so different all around, it has little to do with RMT, yet we pin it too the RMT aspect because that is what is much more visible in some of the F2P games we use as examples.

Anyone remember RF Online? People paid $50 for that game, and $14.99 per month to play it. It was considered a boring grinder for most of us Westerners, and yet it had NO RMT. Loot drops were worthless, content was repetitive, the over all look and feel felt some what cheap to some. Later they tried RMT in that game, but it didn't make it better or worse or even more appealing for us to try because the mechanics remained the same.

Another example is Guild Wars. Some hate it, some love it, and some claim it is not a traditional MMO. You can clearly see what some consider the Asian influence in this title. Regardless of what you think it is you can not ignore the big huge glaring fact that it's different from other western MMOs. Invisible walls, instances within city areas, instances outside the city walls, the “look” of characters, click to move ect. Combat wise it plays like a high quality single player RPG, yet there are areas where there are plenty of players, and if you have friends it feels like an MMO. Yet because it’s in the category of an MMO by the media, it is considered lame by some Western gamers because it does not follow what we call the traditional MMO style.

Now consider Aion, it looks like a typical Asian MMO. The sounds, the music, the combat sequences ect are very Asian in influence. Yet it plays like your average Westernized MMO, and you pay for it. The grind is no different from a game like EQ2, the amount of quality loot drops are equal, resource gathering is similar, open areas and instances like other MMOs (actually less zoning then EQ2) If they were to not change a thing mechanic wise to this game, yet add a form of RMT to it and make it free, would it make game play any better or worse for those who hate or like it? Most likely not.

When SOE added RMT to SWG, EQ2 some complained, but once they figured out it changed none of the existing mechanics, people considered it no more than a vanity addition.   A lot times people will complain because something “looks different from theirs, even though the performance or enhancement of the item is no better that the 20 variations they may have in their inventory. But because someone bought it, it makes it better.

DDO Online. The folks who are paying for that game get what they want out of it with few complaints; the folks who are playing for free get what they want out of it as well with few complaints. It’s still the same game for booth sides, yet one gains a bit more then the other because they pay for it. This to me is similar to cell phone service, you can pay for the extras if you want or need them, or if you don’t care for it, you don’t pay the extra cost.

So you may pay money to have better or different things. How is this any different from the guy who has 18 hours to spend getting better things over you who may only have 3 hours? Some folks may never have a need or even the want to spend time getting some of these epic items, yet because someone can buy it, they feel it cheapens it even though they may never do the grind to obtain it. The folks who want to be uber will always find a way to become uber, whether they grind for it, buy it on ebay, trade for it, or buy it through RMT. These are the hardcore players, they will always strive to achieve that level no mater the cost, even if they have to *gasp* buy gold to do it.

So in closing it’s my assumption that for some, the fear of RMT and what comes with it is more of an emotional issue. Once people get over the idea that only with RMT comes gameplay mechanics they dislike, players that are better than them, pointless content, they may find it really does not matter in the end. For once, it might be possible to actually make an MMO that is fun to play, and includes the addition of a form of RMT.
 

Originally posted by tillamook

 

So you may pay money to have better or different things. How is this any different from the guy who has 18 hours to spend getting better things over you who may only have 3 hours? Some folks may never have a need or even the want to spend time getting some of these epic items, yet because someone can buy it, they feel it cheapens it even though they may never do the grind to obtain it. The folks who want to be uber will always find a way to become uber, whether they grind for it, buy it on ebay, trade for it, or buy it through RMT. These are the hardcore players, they will always strive to achieve that level no mater the cost, even if they have to *gasp* buy gold to do it.

RF online failed because it was god awful, even if it released as a good game (western styled) with RMT would it have still failed? I think so, but it depends on what the RMT offers.

It's a lot different to pay money to get in a day what some took weeks to months to obtain, it's cheap, not rewarding and plain silly. I don't care how you swing it, it's entirely different. Paying a 15/m is as fair as it gets, I don't want to be part of a game that has a RMT alternative to actually experiencing what the game has to offer. According to you to RF online failed because it was not westernized, and RMT is? You will have the same affect, contrary to belief, BioWare and the Star Wars IP will not make up for cheap cash grabs like full RMT systems. Most people can deal with fluff items, so going with that shouldn't be a problem, see WoWs. I can garentee if the cash shop (if there is one) offers gear/game changing items, the game will never reach it's full potential, doing something like this is a major risk. I know plenty of people watching and waiting for this game, heavy RMT is a major deal breaker. And you can bet many people feel the same.

People that don't have the time, in modern MMOs are offered alternative in game ways to do so with out spending an extra dime. WoW has a decent system. I have always thought player skill should be rewarded over time spent, I guess I need to change it to Player Skill should be rewarded over time spent and money spent. If people don't have a few hours a week to achieve things in a "casual" MMO, then maybe they need a new hobby.

Originally posted by tillamook

So in closing it’s my assumption that for some, the fear of RMT and what comes with it is more of an emotional issue. Once people get over the idea that only with RMT comes gameplay mechanics they dislike, players that are better than them, pointless content, they may find it really does not matter in the end. For once, it might be possible to actually make an MMO that is fun to play, and includes the addition of a form of RMT.
 

No. It's not because it's new or different. It's because it's a bad idea.

Originally posted by Lonestryder

Call me old school, but microtransactions of any sort are a deal breaker for me.

 

And it has nothing to do with money.

I am also opposed to micro transactions... I do not like the business model at all.

Originally posted by greed0104

Originally posted by tillamook

 

So you may pay money to have better or different things. How is this any different from the guy who has 18 hours to spend getting better things over you who may only have 3 hours? Some folks may never have a need or even the want to spend time getting some of these epic items, yet because someone can buy it, they feel it cheapens it even though they may never do the grind to obtain it. The folks who want to be uber will always find a way to become uber, whether they grind for it, buy it on ebay, trade for it, or buy it through RMT. These are the hardcore players, they will always strive to achieve that level no mater the cost, even if they have to *gasp* buy gold to do it.

RF online failed because it was god awful, even if it released as a good game (western styled) with RMT would it have still failed? I think so, but it depends on what the RMT offers.

It's a lot different to pay money to get in a day what some took weeks to months to obtain, it's cheap, not rewarding and plain silly. I don't care how you swing it, it's entirely different. Paying a 15/m is as fair as it gets, I don't want to be part of a game that has a RMT alternative to actually experiencing what the game has to offer. According to you to RF online failed because it was not westernized, and RMT is? You will have the same affect, contrary to belief, BioWare and the Star Wars IP will not make up for cheap cash grabs like full RMT systems. Most people can deal with fluff items, so going with that shouldn't be a problem, see WoWs. I can garentee if the cash shop (if there is one) offers gear/game changing items, the game will never reach it's full potential, doing something like this is a major risk. I know plenty of people watching and waiting for this game, heavy RMT is a major deal breaker. And you can bet many people feel the same.

People that don't have the time, in modern MMOs are offered alternative in game ways to do so with out spending an extra dime. WoW has a decent system. I have always thought player skill should be rewarded over time spent, I guess I need to change it to Player Skill should be rewarded over time spent and money spent. If people don't have a few hours a week to achieve things in a "casual" MMO, then maybe they need a new hobby.

 

I guess I can just look at this a bit more objectively then most. The thing is though, paying $15 per month is a form of a micro transaction, yet people get hostile over the idea of others saving money with yearly plans or lifetime plans because some how that means those players get more. And yet they also freak out about spending less and havig some RMT, because then there is the assumption they get less.

Humans are strange animals indeed, pushed any which way out of their comfort zone a bit and they freak out because one bad past experience changed their perception on what is comfortable and what isn't.

Anyways the points they describe may mean something as simple as factional points, or quest points you can turn in for stuff. Yet I'm sure there will be some people who feel that is a stretch because their minds are so wrapped around how bad RMT is; they can never slow down enough to consider another possibility.

Tillamook, which company are you working for - Cryptic, SOE, or BioWare?

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Tillamook, which company are you working for - Cryptic, SOE, or BioWare?

 

I'm sure neither, difference of opinion, that's all.

Originally posted by tillamook

 

 

I guess I can just look at this a bit more objectively then most. The thing is though, paying $15 per month is a form of a micro transaction, yet people get hostile over the idea of others saving money with yearly plans or lifetime plans because some how that means those players get more. And yet they also freak out about spending less and havig some RMT, because then there is the assumption they get less.

Humans are strange animals indeed, pushed any which way out of their comfort zone a bit and they freak out because one bad past experience changed their perception on what is comfortable and what isn't.

Anyways the points they describe may mean something as simple as factional points, or quest points you can turn in for stuff. Yet I'm sure there will be some people who feel that is a stretch because their minds are so wrapped around how bad RMT is; they can never slow down enough to consider another possibility.

Paying 15/m is however you see it. Still a major difference though. 15/m gives everybody the same content for one monthly payment, there are no strings attached, equality among all players. It has nothing to do with how much money you have, it has to do with playing a game for enjoyment, I don't know how you feel, but in an MMO I don't want major differences like this. I want everybody to have the same treatment, without having to go the extra mile such as paying real money. I'm sorta casual player I can make time to do raids and such, but wont if I run into other things, that's life. Giving in game alternatives that you achieve through dedication and skill looks better and feels more rewarding then forking out 55 bucks for a set of armor.

Past experience has nothing to do with this bro. It's not hard to look at the outcome of the situation. Do you seriously wanna be part of something like this? I have real life things I have to do with my money, I wont even involve the recession, with that aside, I have bills, and personal things to take care of. I find the time to play games through luck and friends/family not having anything scheduled. People are already happy with 15 bucks a month, people love to stick to what they are comfortable with, it's not strange, it's absolutely normal. RMTs of that scale push the boundaries in a large way.

The points you describe are a possibility, but the fact that BioWare has yet to debunk this gives us a reason to discuss. Discussion is a good thing. Until they clarify you can expect people to discuss what this could and couldn't mean. 

I just was about to to sign up for beta. This made me quit. No microtransactions for me, no matter what game. Sorry, I was looking forward for swtor :(

Originally posted by goemoe

I just was about to to sign up for beta. This made me quit. No microtransactions for me, no matter what game. Sorry, I was looking forward for swtor :(

It's yet to be confirmed.....don't take everything you see here to heart, for now, it's a rumor. Sign up, if they touch the situation then make a decision. Don't be narrow minded.

Originally posted by ghost047

Welcome to the new age of MMO. People can scream scam all they want, most companies are going this way, you accept it or leave. Blizzard, SoE, NCSoft, Bioware, and Cryptics does it and probably many more.

That may be true, but it is still important that you say something when you don't like it, or we get MORE of it. At least as long as we say our dislike, we can hope the RMT is limited in scope.

Looking at the way it is in EQ2 I don't really have a problem with it, as long as its some few limited, fancy items. What is of much greater importance to me is that TOR is not F2P. All those F2P games catch so many vulgar freeloaders; payment is as least *some* sort of filter.

Originally posted by TookyG

 If this game is great, which sadly, I don't think it will be, I would gladly pay more than $15 a month to keep it RMT free.  I'm not sure how many people would get behind say, a $19.99 sub, but if that would keep RMTs out, then I'm all for it!

The problem is, some accountants figured out that there are people who are willing to pay the subscription fee AND RMT costs to make even MORE money.

Sure, they could jack up the price to 20 bucks a month... but there'd still be the people with no control who'd pay 20 bucks a month AND for RMT items/services. The accountants see this... what they don't see is the number of people who won't pay at all because of it. Or, if they do, they figure that the few thousand people paying hundreds per month will more than make up for the "few" who won't pay to play because of the RMT's.

Those of you who refuse to even try microtransaction games are going to run out of any new titles to play in the very near future. The RMT model is the future of MMORPGs and will eventually overtake all other payment models.

I don't see why this is such a big deal for people as long as the items in the store do not have a big effect on the gameplay. Who cares if someone buys a silly cosmetic upgrade or even a minor XP boosting potion from a cash shop? That is not going to imbalance the game against players who do not purchase those items. If done responsibly, as the OP suggests, MTs are not so bad.

Originally posted by Anubisan

Those of you who refuse to even try microtransaction games are going to run out of any new titles to play in the very near future. The RMT model is the future of MMORPGs and will eventually overtake all other payment models.

I don't see why this is such a big deal for people as long as the items in the store do not have a big effect on the gameplay. Who cares if someone buys a silly cosmetic upgrade or even a minor XP boosting potion from a cash shop? That is not going to imbalance the game against players who do not purchase those items. If done responsibly, as the OP suggests, MTs are not so bad.

Again, I'll bring up the "Accountant". They see people willing to pay big bucks for cosmetic items and think, "Well, now that we've conditioned them to buy stuff that's fluff, they'll be MORE than willing to buy stuff that's "required".

And then after a few years of this, some game developer will come up with the idea of a "subscription" model where you pay a flat rate for everything in the game, and presto, everything that was old is new again.

Originally posted by Anubisan

Those of you who refuse to even try microtransaction games are going to run out of any new titles to play in the very near future. The RMT model is the future of MMORPGs and will eventually overtake all other payment models.

I don't see why this is such a big deal for people as long as the items in the store do not have a big effect on the gameplay. Who cares if someone buys a silly cosmetic upgrade or even a minor XP boosting potion from a cash shop? That is not going to imbalance the game against players who do not purchase those items. If done responsibly, as the OP suggests, MTs are not so bad.

It's the future because people allow it to be. If we run out of titles so what. MMOs are a hobby that can be replaced if it starts to bottom out.

Yes if done responsibly MTs can be a decent addition. What I said earlier is what most people are fine with, not all. See the whole problem is people give into this sort of cash grab to easily. Do people seriously think that fluff RMTs bring subscriptions? Why not just include the items in the game, make them achievable? My forum handle might shed some light on this.

This kind of raw speculation is lame. Reasons why they aren't talking about Microtransactions.

1. The agreement has to do with game testing not the full game.

2. The points are rewarded in the game program NOT purchased.

Just read the language folks. Nothing there about purchasing or consumer rights. Just talks about reward points that can be exchanged for items in a game store that are accrued in the game program. I dont see the leap to the type of sub they may or may not have at the end of development.

This is absolutely ridiculous ... A game store in a beta game could mean a lot of things... But of course people find more easy to see what they want to see, instead of the truth.

The micro-transaction issue is one of the mayor issues in all the forums of this upcoming title... but what you see here has nothing to do with that. In game points that will not be able to change for real money could mean that some testers can think that because of the good job they made in the test run, they can get discounts on the actual retail game, or get the game for free, etc.

The in-game store can mean that if you do a good job testing you will earn more points that can be exchanged in the store for more powerful weapons or so, but all in the testing realm... Come on people that agreement was for the Test, and for that only. Be patience... the game developers are continuously seeing the forums and they will not do something that will go against they own people.

Originally posted by fcazares

This kind of raw speculation is lame. Reasons why they aren't talking about Microtransactions.

1. The agreement has to do with game testing not the full game.

2. The points are rewarded in the game program NOT purchased.

Just read the language folks. Nothing there about purchasing or consumer rights. Just talks about reward points that can be exchanged for items in a game store that are accrued in the game program. I dont see the leap to the type of sub they may or may not have at the end of development.

That's irrelevant. Let me explain why. There have been a few threads discussing this on the official boards. They reroute them to payment method poll. It's being considered no matter the meaning of the ToS. This speculation is far from lame.

P2P --> everybody pays the same, everybody gets the same

MT --> your gaming experience is shaped by the amount of disposable income you are willing to inject into the game

That is my major problem with MT, and the reason i would not like it to be the business model for TOR. It's funny, 'cause i actually went diagonally through the TOS, and spotted that "points" thingy but kinda ignored it ("nah, they wouldn't do that", i thought, "must be something else").

Now, it strikes me as odd that a game with so much alleged focus on story (hence, not on grinding and the associated higher need for good gear or other indispensable items) would go in that direction. While it is pretty much clear that there will be an in-game store of some sort, my guess is that it won't feature anything that would give players an edge in terms of gear, but rather customization options, possible expansions, etc (think Guild Wars in-game shop, for instance). Optional, non-gameplay enhancing goods for those willing to spend a few extra bucks for rather dispensable commodities and gimmicks.

But then again, things have been going a weird way, ever since EA got their filthy claws in Bioware's cookie jar (promotional videos for Dragon Age and Mass Effect 2, i'm looking right at you!)

I guess we'll just have to wait and see what it's all about. Personally, if it's not in the terms i delineated above, it's a dealbreaker for me, and i'll just wait for GW2 :)