Thanks for the article. I didn't know Alganon was an indie. I thought it was another asian clone.

I just hope one of these Indie games becomes a big success.  Helps the industry, as what we have been seeing lately from the major studios is just more of the same old crap.  Maybe it will help the major studios start innovating again. 

Funny I used to try out every MMO that came out.  After beta testing both War and Conan, I knew those were both duds, did not even purchase either.  Aion is exactly the same, while a better game then the latter two, it still offers nothing new.

This genre is in a state of stagnation.   Hopefully there will be an indie out there to break the genre out of that mold.

I don't understand the debate about Alganon.  Seems to me it offers a better gameplay experience than Aion without all the silly hype.

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by Gabby-air

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by Gabby-air

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by Tolroc

I also don't understand the hype around Alganon. The game doesn't look all that innovative to me.  Just my opinion. The other three games mentioned seem pretty solid, but I've not played any of them.

 

 

At least some of the hype is from many of us who have followed Dave Allen's activities for years now.  The *original* design for Horizons(now Istaria) was absolutely brilliant.  But that all went down the tubes when David Bowman backstabbed Dave Allen, and the rest as they say is history.  I'm very happy that he made it back into games after such a nasty situation.  Those who go on(and on and on and on...) about it being a "rip off" of WoW, have little concept of the ideas and play dynamics that WoW has "ripped off"  from other games of the past.  Everyone does it to a greater or lesser extent.  Its how one crafts the various components that determines if its fun or not.

Those who worship at the shrine of the great God "innovation" should know that its a very fickle deity, and as prone to kicking one in the ass, as it is in rewarding one for ones devotion.

I'll take play dynamics that are *fun* over innovation any day.  Why re invent the wheel when its unnecessary? Given Dave Allen's background, and demonstrated talent at game design, I'm more than willing to give his latest project Alganon an honest try.

So what your saying is, its just another generic game with no innovation and your regular "borrowing" of content games which seem to be released like every week in korea, just this one we have to pay for? Like ive said i respect the devs and am well aware of dave allen, who by the way was a man with a good imagination not the one who "borrowed" from other games but the game does nothing to be on that list.

 

The subject was "The rise of the indy MMO".  Thus Alganon fits on the list. Its not backed by any major publisher.  Having played way, WAY too many Korean games, I have to disagree with you. All too many of them are re skinned, slight rule changes of the same hand full of engines.  Not to mention the Korean fixation on PvP(its easier/cheaper if your players provide much of the games content).  Alganon looks like its going to be fun, in the same sense that WoW was on its release. Even if it only attracts 150-200k players, that will still give Dave Allen a chance to show what he is capable of.

 

But how exactly is different that the korean games? as you said, there all the same old thing which well goes the same for this game aswell with some little differerence, whats making this game different that aion, wow, evrequest2? It's been already done and done alot better, why waste more time on it?

And by the way i doubt this game would see 150k subs even 50k would be exagerating, it only has like 2k registered members on the forums and its one month away from release.

 

Its different because they are not using a re skinned, rule changed engine from another game. I did say thats what is all too common with many Korean games. Its different because they have their own presentation of the story they seek to tell.  How well they tell it, and how enjoyable it will be is yet to be determined(as with all such games).  As for the potential subs, thats a function of marketing, word of mouth and buzz leading in to launch. Its also a function of peoples perception of the game in the months after launch.  It all depends on not only what the game is, but how its players respond to it.  That to a great extent is determined by how the Dev's interact with their players. Look at CCP for a good example of that. Sure, they have made some mistakes, but over all they have managed quite well.  I'm hoping that Dave Allen has learned those lessons.

"Its different because they are not using a re skinned, rule changed engine from another game"

How can that be an argument if in the last page you just said "why reinvent the wheel?". IF you really think so,the korean model have a MERIT in using a re skinned engine. I can understand if you love the game but let's keep it at least non-contraditory

=/

Originally posted by Thanosxp

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by Gabby-air

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by Gabby-air

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by Tolroc

I also don't understand the hype around Alganon. The game doesn't look all that innovative to me.  Just my opinion. The other three games mentioned seem pretty solid, but I've not played any of them.

 

 

At least some of the hype is from many of us who have followed Dave Allen's activities for years now.  The *original* design for Horizons(now Istaria) was absolutely brilliant.  But that all went down the tubes when David Bowman backstabbed Dave Allen, and the rest as they say is history.  I'm very happy that he made it back into games after such a nasty situation.  Those who go on(and on and on and on...) about it being a "rip off" of WoW, have little concept of the ideas and play dynamics that WoW has "ripped off"  from other games of the past.  Everyone does it to a greater or lesser extent.  Its how one crafts the various components that determines if its fun or not.

Those who worship at the shrine of the great God "innovation" should know that its a very fickle deity, and as prone to kicking one in the ass, as it is in rewarding one for ones devotion.

I'll take play dynamics that are *fun* over innovation any day.  Why re invent the wheel when its unnecessary? Given Dave Allen's background, and demonstrated talent at game design, I'm more than willing to give his latest project Alganon an honest try.

So what your saying is, its just another generic game with no innovation and your regular "borrowing" of content games which seem to be released like every week in korea, just this one we have to pay for? Like ive said i respect the devs and am well aware of dave allen, who by the way was a man with a good imagination not the one who "borrowed" from other games but the game does nothing to be on that list.

 

The subject was "The rise of the indy MMO".  Thus Alganon fits on the list. Its not backed by any major publisher.  Having played way, WAY too many Korean games, I have to disagree with you. All too many of them are re skinned, slight rule changes of the same hand full of engines.  Not to mention the Korean fixation on PvP(its easier/cheaper if your players provide much of the games content).  Alganon looks like its going to be fun, in the same sense that WoW was on its release. Even if it only attracts 150-200k players, that will still give Dave Allen a chance to show what he is capable of.

 

But how exactly is different that the korean games? as you said, there all the same old thing which well goes the same for this game aswell with some little differerence, whats making this game different that aion, wow, evrequest2? It's been already done and done alot better, why waste more time on it?

And by the way i doubt this game would see 150k subs even 50k would be exagerating, it only has like 2k registered members on the forums and its one month away from release.

 

Its different because they are not using a re skinned, rule changed engine from another game. I did say thats what is all too common with many Korean games. Its different because they have their own presentation of the story they seek to tell.  How well they tell it, and how enjoyable it will be is yet to be determined(as with all such games).  As for the potential subs, thats a function of marketing, word of mouth and buzz leading in to launch. Its also a function of peoples perception of the game in the months after launch.  It all depends on not only what the game is, but how its players respond to it.  That to a great extent is determined by how the Dev's interact with their players. Look at CCP for a good example of that. Sure, they have made some mistakes, but over all they have managed quite well.  I'm hoping that Dave Allen has learned those lessons.

 

"Its different because they are not using a re skinned, rule changed engine from another game"

How can that be an argument if in the last page you just said "why reinvent the wheel?". IF you really think so,the korean model have a MERIT in using a re skinned engine. I can understand if you love the game but let's keep it at least non-contraditory

=/

 

One needs to keep track of context... There is a rather large difference between using *some* similiar game dynamics, and the common practice with many Korean(and other Asian) games in that they use the same *game engine* but simply re skin it and slightly change some of the rule set.  Sure it has *some* merit... It allows them to churn out a nearly endless number of clone games, at minimal expense.  I've not said that innovation is bad, when properly applied. But innovation for its own sake, tends to have rather negative consequences.

Hey all, so you know this article dealt with games being developed here in the U.S.

I agree completely that Earthrise and Mortal Online are both worthy of mention here.

They are being developed in Europe.

Just to clarify.

I liked the article. it was interesting and informative.

Others think it could have included other titles(though Garrett explained his choices). I think it was a enjoyable and thought provoking read and did not need to be an essay nor include all possible indies. He chose what indies titles he wanted to to highlight his point, as is his right as the author.

Kudos to the author.

Originally posted by garrett

Hey all, so you know this article dealt with games being developed here in the U.S.

I agree completely that Earthrise and Mortal Online are both worthy of mention here.

They are being developed in Europe.

Just to clarify.

Problably should have said that in the article.  Its a bit misleading since the article says that  "The independent market has started to produce games that are getting noticed by players" not the US independent market.  

Respect to the companies putting all these games together, they all look very promising.

I've been both an Alpha and Beta tester and I must say I'm looking forward to Global Agenda immensely. I'm also intrigued by Fallen Earth which I may try out, even though the initial outlay is quite steep (£50?).

As for Alganon, this game asks to be hated but to be honest I think it looks good too. Those people who draw comparisons with WoW have a fair point but all I care about is if it's any good. As for those who say it doesn't bring anything new to the table: so what!?! The ideas employed may be similar but there are a lot of new ideas in there from what I can tell and tbh, radical innovation is rare in any game. Name one game that's come out recently thats done something thats never ever been seen before - and good luck btw. Despite being totally bored with WoW for ages now, I'll probably give this a try too since to me it looks like a pretty fresh spin on that style of game.

Aryas

Once again Earthrise is lost in the words... 

Great read.  It's nice to see the MMO genre going back to its roots.  When people who love games were making MMOs for other people who love games, it was a really good time.  Even if there were bugs, they were honest ones.  It was a whole new field and devs were doing their best, for real.  Then players and devs would actually work together to identify issues and fix them.

Once WoW seemed to sky-rocket to success, corporate interests seem to take note.  They then seemed to want to use MMOs and use gamers to code themselves some cash.  They didn't seem to be passionate about making the greatest game, or giving people an awesome experience.  It seemed to be about coding cash and getting a return on the investment, in whatever manner seemed most expedient.

Well, games based on this approach simply suck.  I'm paying attention to the Indy scene, and still helping out with an open source MMO that's coming along really nicely. 

Was nice to see who some indies are making waves. But way too much reliance on the ‘buzz’ as a forecaster of coming MMO goodness. We know where that has got us before. Perhaps if feature authors played these new MMOs, even if only for a couple of hours each, that would put these sort of reviews on firmer ground.

Wiz101 is actually pretty fun.  I played it for a while, but the new wore off after a month of it.  It repeats itself a lot.
You can tell it's a 'Harry Potter' game for kids, but it does seem to entice adults and hardcore gamers for a while also.  It's something different at least.

Originally posted by Scot

Was nice to see who some indies are making waves. But way too much reliance on the ‘buzz’ as a forecaster of coming MMO goodness. We know where that has got us before. Perhaps if feature authors played these new MMOs, even if only for a couple of hours each, that would put these sort of reviews on firmer ground.

I agree 100%.
One irritation of mine is an inexperienced source reviewing a game/book/film.
You have to play it/read it/watch it first if you want your opinion to hold credence.

I'm stopping on the way home from work at my local gamestop to get my copy of Fallen Earth which released today at gamestop...been following them for several years myself, keeping track of its development etc...and joined beta to test out the game and get a feel for it being a pseudo fallout mmo...and I was pleasantly surprised by it and the reason i'll be stopping by to pick it up tonight...

It's got its issue as does everygame but it looks like everything is getting fixed right away and things are moving along. What made me most interested in it of course was there 6 faction system, pvp and skill based system...as an indy game designer myself we started out looking at a very large faction system over 8 and have since scaled that back to 4 main faction however also being heavily pvp oriented and skill based...we're on a much more creative budget then these guys but this is the kinda success for an indy studio that we're hoping for...build small, build it right and keep building it and your customer just will be..

:D

Originally posted by Gabby-air

I certainly don't understand why this site loves alganon, how exactly is alganon innovative? the study system is nothing more than a press start and wait till its done thing which seriously people wont even care much about. There is a real lack of content in game, it's interface and graphics are completely ripped off of wow, so when exactly does the innovation kick in? I don't wanna sound like a wow fanboy or anything but ye. Also i appreciate indie devs making games and alganon has some great devs which listen to the community but there game just isn't as great as you guys make it seem.

Edit: Yeh going from the forums it seem like alot of people are unhappy with the release date but the devs said alot of changes are gonna happen, just gotta wait and see i guess?

Fist off all im really sad how dumb you a why do all keep saying a mmo is a rip off wow.

Blizzard have taking averything in wow beside de lore from other mmos out there wow wasent the firs god damn mmo on the planet i played mmo long before they was even thinking of making wow so stuff the crap and start looking around...

They might not be 100+ million dollar projects,but IMO these guys are not INDY.Kingisle..btw i played Wiz 101,are a decent size operation.As o now they have some massive hiring going on,not sure if they are losing lots of employees or expanding.The guy who basically started the online shooter craze is working for Kingilse.That guy is MrHall who started the game i started the Wolfenstein,then of course later we know of a giant game[QUAKE].

Fallen Earth is another not so blown out of proportion budget,but they are not small either.These guys have a very experienced staff and lots of employees.

To be honest i know only of GA from the early videos i watched.I sort of seems like a cheap version of Unrealtournament.Tough for a game like that,because when i have a choice between the two,i would go for UT.I actually had to look up for a little homework and they ar not small either.They have hired some decently big names to work for them,including from Call of duty,they also have a lot of long time expertise in the technology filed,albeit maybe not so much in the gaming.

I was actually not so much surprised to see they are using the UE3 engine,so go figure it reminded me of UT.That alone shows it is a serious developer.

Last but not least...Alganon,i think i watched one video because someone in the forums posted it.That was about 3 weeks ago or something,i have already forgot it.Ok had to do more homework.This gu yhas been around 15 years since his first commercial game.This is the same guy who made HORIZONS,so i wouldn't say it is a noob or an indy guy either.His original games were sought after by Interplay another well known publisher,so this guy has a bit of background.As far  as their TEAM goes,i kind of think they may be considered an INDY developer,i don't think they are that big and struggle for money.This game BTW was originally named CRUSADE,then they changed the name,not sure why,i don't really consider Alganon to be very catchy.Maybe it has some Latin meaning :D.

So maybe one of these guys could be considered borderline Indy.I can quickly name 3 games that really were INDY and made it rather big and are i believe still going strong.First up Crash Bandicoot,started by a few teenagers,went on to sell the rights to SOE,and became rich of course.

Serious Sam,another VERY small operation,had less than 10 people 4 coders.Of course the legendary Unreal game back in 98,by Tim Sweeney made out of his garage no less.Now of course that Engine is huge and sold all over the world,he went on to be a multi millionaire.

you miss Darkfall... you fail..