Instead of the rock, paper, sissors that is presented to you in a class based system, Darkfall creates situational balance.  Its built on how you play the game, not how high level you are.  A fully equipped week old player can compete against month old vets.  Real balance.

 This is an interesting discussion to have it seems. I think situational balance is better than the current system of master of all for sure. But is there balance even in a game where you can be everything? And I am not talking DF as much as theory of it here. But I think total balance is still a myth. A new player may be able to fight for a minute or so with a vet but he/she will still lose which it should be but in your example you make it sound as if it would be a different outcome. I still think a soft cap at least should be in place if for no other reason than character development decisions. Now if the new changes were say perm that would be an interesting idea indeed but if I read right you can skip back and forth between them.

In a game where you can be anything it's up to the players own brain to win.  And maybe a lag free computer.  

Originally posted by -Zeno-

Instead of the rock, paper, sissors that is presented to you in a class based system, Darkfall creates situational balance.  Its built on how you play the game, not how high level you are.  A fully equipped week old player can compete against month old vets.  Real balance.

Let's wait and see how the October "expansion" is implemented before we hand out awards to Aventurine for creating the Shangri-La of MMOs. 

Originally posted by -Zeno-

Instead of the rock, paper, sissors that is presented to you in a class based system, Darkfall creates situational balance.  Its built on how you play the game, not how high level you are.  A fully equipped week old player can compete against month old vets.  Real balance.

The week old player will still need to be equipped with good stuff though. And even then, they will hit for less against a month old vet.

This has more to do with equipment requirement levels than with classes.

You are right about something though, it's indeed built on how you play the game (and on the help you get), and not on how high level you are.

Class based system doesn't neccesary hinder this, it's just that those systems usually have equipment requirement levels and other character bonusses that scale with levels, not really class basics that cause an imbalance.

 But its still better "balance" then in any other system!

---

Originally posted by -Zeno-

 

Instead of the rock, paper, sissors that is presented to you in a class based system, Darkfall creates situational balance.  Its built on how you play the game, not how high level you are.  A fully equipped week old player can compete against month old vets.  Real balance.

---

 
Seem like I started a revoultion. The original post and discussion of this topic, that I started, can be found below
AV gets it: Situational balance ftw
 

Many back and forths are in that thread, but mainly people who think AV are scewing up with this just wants the game to foce players to have weaknesses to be exploited intead of having everyone fight at an even level where only player skill for the most part determines the out come of a fight. Now, with that said, I'd personally rather have a builds game similar to MTG, but that would still allow people to play all three play styles: melee, archery, magic effecitveles, but remove some of the utility skills from a person's build to make the game more tactical. The discussion for that idea can be seen blow
 

Diversification through build creation: MTG style

---

Originally posted by parrotpholk

 

This is an interesting discussion to have it seems. I think situational balance is better than the current system of master of all for sure. But is there balance even in a game where you can be everything? And I am not talking DF as much as theory of it here. But I think total balance is still a myth. A new player may be able to fight for a minute or so with a vet but he/she will still lose which it should be but in your example you make it sound as if it would be a different outcome. I still think a soft cap at least should be in place if for no other reason than character development decisions. Now if the new changes were say perm that would be an interesting idea indeed but if I read right you can skip back and forth between them.

---

The thing is though, a new player can hold his own against a vet in about a month two two months time. It takes some knowledge or help, but it certainly is possibe.

Originally posted by daarco

 But its still better "balance" then in any other system!

From what I have gathered, it's not a matter of rock, paper, scissors...it's a matter of the multitudes of magic users in the game, which seems to be the popular thing to have and use.  Thing is, unless they add in skill caps (or have some sort of specialization with limits, thought I heard some discussion on specialization), then all "builds" lead to the same thing in the end.  If every character can max out in every skill, then there really is no diversity.  Instead of rock, paper, scissors, you have rock vs rock vs rock.

I don't see balance at all.  Balance is an ever elusive dream in MMOs, and unless you force everyone to be exactly the same, then you won't achieve it.  Besides, it's the player that should matter, and how they work with what they are playing.

I've seen people in class based games playing the rock that has torn through paper, and playing the scissors that has cut up the rock.  It had nothing to do with balance and everything to do with the player. 

Balance is an illusion, and DFO is far from balanced from all accounts I have read.  It suffers issues in that department like any other MMO.

Originally posted by xpiher

 

 

 

---

Originally posted by parrotpholk

 

This is an interesting discussion to have it seems. I think situational balance is better than the current system of master of all for sure. But is there balance even in a game where you can be everything? And I am not talking DF as much as theory of it here. But I think total balance is still a myth. A new player may be able to fight for a minute or so with a vet but he/she will still lose which it should be but in your example you make it sound as if it would be a different outcome. I still think a soft cap at least should be in place if for no other reason than character development decisions. Now if the new changes were say perm that would be an interesting idea indeed but if I read right you can skip back and forth between them.

---

The thing is though, a new player can hold his own against a vet in about a month two two months time. It takes some knowledge or help, but it certainly is possibe.

 

But is a 2 month old player really a newbie though. When I hear new player I think fresh off the boat and dont know a word of the native language. Even at 2 months you have a bit of vet status especially since the game has only 6 months on it. I like what they are proposing but just think whatever you decide to specialize in then its for good and you build off that vs being able to switch between them.

Originally posted by Wyldsong

Originally posted by daarco

 But its still better "balance" then in any other system!

From what I have gathered, it's not a matter of rock, paper, scissors...it's a matter of the multitudes of magic users in the game, which seems to be the popular thing to have and use.  Thing is, unless they add in skill caps (or have some sort of specialization with limits, thought I heard some discussion on specialization), then all "builds" lead to the same thing in the end.  If every character can max out in every skill, then there really is no diversity.  Instead of rock, paper, scissors, you have rock vs rock vs rock.

I don't see balance at all.  Balance is an ever elusive dream in MMOs, and unless you force everyone to be exactly the same, then you won't achieve it.  Besides, it's the player that should matter, and how they work with what they are playing.

I've seen people in class based games playing the rock that has torn through paper, and playing the scissors that has cut up the rock.  It had nothing to do with balance and everything to do with the player. 

Balance is an illusion, and DFO is far from balanced from all accounts I have read.  It suffers issues in that department like any other MMO.

Its suffers issues of balance, but that won't be solved by forcing players to chose one skill or the other.  People think that the game can only be balanced after a cap is implemented are wrong. The developers still need to balance the game; however, they are right in the sense that DFO should be about player skill not a players build. Honestly though, if the game gets balanced, players will diverify themselves without a cap.

Being able to chose between them means that if something is changed, it doesn't screw a player over. Thats the problem with hard caps and class systems. Complete classes get screwed when something is changed, what you are suggesting is the exact same thing.

Originally posted by xpiher

Originally posted by Wyldsong

Originally posted by daarco

 But its still better "balance" then in any other system!

From what I have gathered, it's not a matter of rock, paper, scissors...it's a matter of the multitudes of magic users in the game, which seems to be the popular thing to have and use.  Thing is, unless they add in skill caps (or have some sort of specialization with limits, thought I heard some discussion on specialization), then all "builds" lead to the same thing in the end.  If every character can max out in every skill, then there really is no diversity.  Instead of rock, paper, scissors, you have rock vs rock vs rock.

I don't see balance at all.  Balance is an ever elusive dream in MMOs, and unless you force everyone to be exactly the same, then you won't achieve it.  Besides, it's the player that should matter, and how they work with what they are playing.

I've seen people in class based games playing the rock that has torn through paper, and playing the scissors that has cut up the rock.  It had nothing to do with balance and everything to do with the player. 

Balance is an illusion, and DFO is far from balanced from all accounts I have read.  It suffers issues in that department like any other MMO.

 

Its suffers issues of balance, but that won't be solved by forcing players to chose one skill or the other.  People think that the game can only be balanced after a cap is implemented are wrong. The developers still need to balance the game; however, they are right in the sense that DFO should be about player skill not a players build. Honestly though, if the game gets balanced, players will diverify themselves without a cap.

Being able to chose between them means that if something is changed, it doesn't screw a player over. Thats the problem with hard caps and class systems. Complete classes get screwed when something is changed, what you are suggesting is the exact same thing.

We can agree on player skill and not the players build.  But, any game where everyone can max out on every skill does not leave a lot of diversity.  In a way, DFO can become extremely balanced, once every player has maxed every skill, then it would be nothing but player skill...but everyone being exactly the same would get exceedingly boring quickly in my mind.  But to each their own.

If not for a skill cap, how would you propose a balance besides everyone maxing every skill? How do you balance let's say a dual dagger wielder versus the magic user? The ranged bow user versus the swordsman? How would you balance those with the system you are given? What are your thoughts?

Originally posted by Wyldsong

Originally posted by xpiher

Originally posted by Wyldsong

Originally posted by daarco

 But its still better "balance" then in any other system!

From what I have gathered, it's not a matter of rock, paper, scissors...it's a matter of the multitudes of magic users in the game, which seems to be the popular thing to have and use.  Thing is, unless they add in skill caps (or have some sort of specialization with limits, thought I heard some discussion on specialization), then all "builds" lead to the same thing in the end.  If every character can max out in every skill, then there really is no diversity.  Instead of rock, paper, scissors, you have rock vs rock vs rock.

I don't see balance at all.  Balance is an ever elusive dream in MMOs, and unless you force everyone to be exactly the same, then you won't achieve it.  Besides, it's the player that should matter, and how they work with what they are playing.

I've seen people in class based games playing the rock that has torn through paper, and playing the scissors that has cut up the rock.  It had nothing to do with balance and everything to do with the player. 

Balance is an illusion, and DFO is far from balanced from all accounts I have read.  It suffers issues in that department like any other MMO.

 

Its suffers issues of balance, but that won't be solved by forcing players to chose one skill or the other.  People think that the game can only be balanced after a cap is implemented are wrong. The developers still need to balance the game; however, they are right in the sense that DFO should be about player skill not a players build. Honestly though, if the game gets balanced, players will diverify themselves without a cap.

Being able to chose between them means that if something is changed, it doesn't screw a player over. Thats the problem with hard caps and class systems. Complete classes get screwed when something is changed, what you are suggesting is the exact same thing.

 

We can agree on player skill and not the players build.  But, any game where everyone can max out on every skill does not leave a lot of diversity.  In a way, DFO can become extremely balanced, once every player has maxed every skill, then it would be nothing but player skill...but everyone being exactly the same would get exceedingly boring quickly in my mind.  But to each their own.

If not for a skill cap, how would you propose a balance besides everyone maxing every skill? How do you balance let's say a dual dagger wielder versus the magic user? The ranged bow user versus the swordsman? How would you balance those with the system you are given? What are your thoughts?

Easily, giving the person who only wants to use magic as a utility skill the utility abilities to keep the mage dominate player from either casting spells or kiting. Not talking about stuns, or roots but snares, short knockdowns, the ability to interrupt spells, etc. They need to work on balance issues, but a cap isn't and has never been the answer for balance it adds on another layer that has to be passed to balance the game. So AV would need to add a few more melee abilities, fixing skill like seize and come hither, and balance out armor.

This is an interesting post.

This is one of the games I have been thinking about but from what I have read it is hard to compete unless you play a ton or macro like crazy.  I have also read about a ton of cheat having to do with client side data modifiying run speed, warping, and some sort of radar system.

The idea of being able to somewhat compete regardless of level is something I don't understand why a game developer hasn't done before with a pvp based game.

I thought they would need to allow new players to start at say the low end of the active player range.  So, say the max lvl was 50 and most players were 30-50 then a player could have the option of starting at 30.

But from what you are saying players can currently compete fairly soon after starting?  By that do you mean players playing non stop or a player that plays a few hours a day a 2-4 days a week?

This game does look interesting.  I love open world games with no zones.  I love to explore and find new cool areas to camp at.  I like some space between the monster spawns.  I love skilled based games.

But I worry the PvE isn't fun enough and the PvP is going to be mainly for people that play 24/7 and dedicate thier lives to playing the game.  The guy that does the reviews of this game on the main page of this site seems to think you really need to dedicate a ton of time to compete in this game similar to EVE (which I never player either).  Being that PvP seems to be what this game is about getting your ass kicked in all the time by people with a ton more time then me or cheating agianst me doesn't appeal to me.

I play a lot of FPS and it is evident that as times goes by most become cheaters heaven.  Auto aimming, radar systems, yada yada.  Most leaders have AT LEAST 1k+ kills with no deaths (um yeah right).

I do like the aiming system in a MMO I just worry about some auto aiming hack being prevelent.  And I don't want to cheat nor have the time to be updating a ton of mods needed to compete.

Anyway, let me know what you guys playing the game have to say.

so... you mean like what EVE did? years ago?

Originally posted by stux

This is an interesting post.

This is one of the games I have been thinking about but from what I have read it is hard to compete unless you play a ton or macro like crazy.  I have also read about a ton of cheat having to do with client side data modifiying run speed, warping, and some sort of radar system.

The idea of being able to somewhat compete regardless of level is something I don't understand why a game developer hasn't done before with a pvp based game.

I thought they would need to allow new players to start at say the low end of the active player range.  So, say the max lvl was 50 and most players were 30-50 then a player could have the option of starting at 30.

But from what you are saying players can currently compete fairly soon after starting?  By that do you mean players playing non stop or a player that plays a few hours a day a 2-4 days a week?

This game does look interesting.  I love open world games with no zones.  I love to explore and find new cool areas to camp at.  I like some space between the monster spawns.  I love skilled based games.

But I worry the PvE isn't fun enough and the PvP is going to be mainly for people that play 24/7 and dedicate thier lives to playing the game.  The guy that does the reviews of this game on the main page of this site seems to think you really need to dedicate a ton of time to compete in this game similar to EVE (which I never player either).  Being that PvP seems to be what this game is about getting your ass kicked in all the time by people with a ton more time then me or cheating agianst me doesn't appeal to me.

I play a lot of FPS and it is evident that as times goes by most become cheaters heaven.  Auto aimming, radar systems, yada yada.  Most leaders have AT LEAST 1k+ kills with no deaths (um yeah right).

I do like the aiming system in a MMO I just worry about some auto aiming hack being prevelent.  And I don't want to cheat nor have the time to be updating a ton of mods needed to compete.

Anyway, let me know what you guys playing the game have to say.

 

 

The PvE still needs improvement, but that is suppose to be coming with the next content update which happens sometime this month. If you focus train one or two magic schools while doing some farming of resouces you can be competeive in a month-two with casual play. You just need to know what to farm and how to farm. I really should update my DFO blog, but I just can't bring myself to be the only one working on it.

Originally posted by Majinash

so... you mean like what EVE did? years ago?

I was waiting for someone to say this. The thing is that EVE is pretty unbalanced (so is Darkfall). Champions Online also takes this route, as did Shadowbane and Ultima Online. In fact, I would consider all these games fairly unbalanced in one way or another. So I reject the premise of the OP that "situational balance" exists in any meaningful way.

What you gain from having an open skill system, is that you can ignore imbalance because players will simply gravitate towards the stronger abilities, and not invest time in the underpowered skill lines. Unlike a class based game, where if you discover at level 20 that your skill/talent/feat tree is packed with useless abilites... you are pretty much SOL. With open skill systems, you just start cross-speccing and move away from what you originally thought would be cool, but find out later is gimpy.

Balance is highly subjective, and the losing side will always be able to cough up something to justify anything.

Having said that, DFO left the "rock-paper-scissor" scheme behind, which is a good thing. Sadly it opted out for the "rocket launcher-rocket launcher-rocket launcher" approach, which is still a baffling decision for me, business-wise. If it were as good as some here would lead us to believe, the game would not be in such dismal state.

Innovation is good, when it goes hand in hand with diversity. Otherwise, is just swapping 12 for a dozen.

Originally posted by StrixMaxima

Balance is highly subjective, and the losing side will always be able to cough up something to justify anything.

Having said that, DFO left the "rock-paper-scissor" scheme behind, which is a good thing. Sadly it opted out for the "rocket launcher-rocket launcher-rocket launcher" approach, which is still a baffling decision for me, business-wise. If it were as good as some here would lead us to believe, the game would not be in such dismal state.

Innovation is good, when it goes hand in hand with diversity. Otherwise, is just swapping 12 for a dozen.

This makes a good point. However there is no perfect answer for the problem of skill cap or no skill cap. Its all in a way subjective. If there was no way to bloodwall or afk macro the previous grind was sort of the answer to no skill cap because then it would have forced diversity because no one would have wanted to skill up in that grind system every skill.

"Situational balance" is almost as dumb as the phrase "PvP is balanced for groups, not for solo players" whilst certain builds / classes run around soloing groups. >.>

Originally posted by Dawnsinger

"Situational balance" is almost as dumb as the phrase "PvP is balanced for groups, not for solo players" whilst certain builds / classes run around soloing groups. >.>

Situational balance means that every play style has a roll to fill. This means that when you are in melee range you are dumb if you don't use melee, if you are at magic range you are dumb for not using magic, if you are further out you use archery (depending on aiming skills) While the game is still unblanced due to magic being OP and certain subplay styles being useless (debuff, sword and board, etc) its better than rock vs paper fights and is much easier to balance. To balance things situationally, you do not have to nerf skills presay (magic just neesd to be less spamable) you just have to make all play styles useful. RIght now, thats not the case in dfo.

Originally posted by xpiher

Originally posted by Dawnsinger

"Situational balance" is almost as dumb as the phrase "PvP is balanced for groups, not for solo players" whilst certain builds / classes run around soloing groups. >.>

 

Situational balance means that every play style has a roll to fill. This means that when you are in melee range you are dumb if you don't use melee, if you are at magic range you are dumb for not using magic, if you are further out you use archery (depending on aiming skills) While the game is still unblanced due to magic being OP and certain subplay styles being useless (debuff, sword and board, etc) its better than rock vs paper fights and is much easier to balance. To balance things situationally, you do not have to nerf skills presay (magic just neesd to be less spamable) you just have to make all play styles useful. RIght now, thats not the case in dfo.

I can't agree that DFO will be much easier to balance.  I do agree with a post higher up you made that adding in abilities for the other attack styles would help, but in a game such as this, balance will only ever be truly achieved when everyone has maxed out every skill, then they will all be on an even playing field.

The game lacks appeal to me for a few reasons, but this ability to max out every skill by every player means no diversity.  Lack of diversity is not much fun in my eyes.  Diversity and some sort of balance could be achieved through things like a caps and possibly skill decay if no cap.  Yeah, it would add a whole new layer to the balancing act, but here again, adding the aforementioned abilities to the other attack types wold work just fine for this.  But, here again, I am still of the mind that balance will never be achieved in DFO or any other MMO for that matter unless all players are on an even playing field all of the time.  And that goes back to lack of diversity and things just not being much fun.

Originally posted by -Zeno-

Instead of the rock, paper, sissors that is presented to you in a class based system, Darkfall creates situational balance.  Its built on how you play the game, not how high level you are.  A fully equipped week old player can compete against month old vets.  Real balance.

This is complete bs.  Right now " vets " just cycle through the 4 magic AoEs doing 50 - 80 damage each shot ( the magic damage doesn't decrease with radius - Auto Target).  There will never be balance in an uncapped system unless the leveling is trivial ( players can max all their skills in a month ).

The new " specializations " that are about to be introduced will basically be rock-paper-scissors.  " Mage Killer " is just the first part of it.  Next, there will be skills that add damage based on holding a bow and another a melee weapon and they added bunny hopping as a skill.  

Originally posted by thinktank001

Originally posted by -Zeno-

Instead of the rock, paper, sissors that is presented to you in a class based system, Darkfall creates situational balance.  Its built on how you play the game, not how high level you are.  A fully equipped week old player can compete against month old vets.  Real balance.

 

This is complete bs.  Right now " vets " just cycle through the 4 magic AoEs doing 50 - 80 damage each shot ( the magic damage doesn't decrease with radius - Auto Target).  There will never be balance in an uncapped system unless the leveling is trivial ( players can max all their skills in a month ).

 

The new " specializations " that are about to be introduced will basically be rock-paper-scissors.  " Mage Killer " is just the first part of it.  Next, there will be skills that add damage based on holding a bow and another a melee weapon and they added bunny hopping as a skill.  

 

 

You are assuming that AV isn't going to address the fact that people can cycle level 70+ spells. Its been stated on the forums constantly that its needed. No reason why it won't be done when AV says they are trying to bring balance without caps.

There is already diverity in the game. Just becuase everyone uses melee, archery, and magic doesn't mean everyone uses the same spells. I really don't understand why no divesity = no fun for people. Its not like class based games or skill caps magically increase diveisty, that is an illusion in a PvP game because everyone min-maxes their class/build which leads to people playing 1 build per class and generally just a few builds in a hard cap. I don't see the difference if the only diverity in people's play styles is just a hand full of builds.

Originally posted by xpiher

 

 I really don't understand why no divesity = no fun for people. Its not like class based games or skill caps magically increase diveisty, that is an illusion in a PvP game because everyone min-maxes their class/build which leads to people playing 1 build per class and generally just a few builds in a hard cap. I don't see the difference if the only diverity in people's play styles is just a hand full of builds.

I'm not going to touch on everything you stated, but I will touch on this bit here.  Skill caps would in fact increase diversity IF something were added to make builds viable, and this all goes back to special abilities to make sword and board, daggers and what have you a viable option.  Not to say that people won't still find a way to game the system and min/max, because you will have that no matter what, skill cap or no.  That is just the nature of these types of games, but if you made other builds just as workable and competetive as say the guy who cycles through his four AOEs all the time, then it could work.  Besides, no skill cap now, and people are in fact playing the min/max game with AOEs and magic.

As for no diversity being no fun...let's put it this way:  If everyone can learn every skill, then you theoretically have the tools to face everything thrown your way, and can throw everything right back.  To my mind, that lessens the excitement of PVP, and really takes away some of the challenge and fun.  It might put a little more emphasis on player skill, but you pretty much know what to expect.  They throw X, you hit Y, you attack with A, they counter with B.  It basically leads to stagnation...things that stagnate tend to die.

Diversity really gives you some element of surprise.  You see your opponent, and go to attack, but you have to consider, how should I go about this? You don't know what they can or can't do until they pull a weapon or fire off a spell, and it forces you to be a bit more tactical and put more thought into your actions.  It makes you fight smarter, because they might throw X, and you may not have the Y to counter it, so you need to have a good plan of attack.  Do you blitz them and try to take them out in one fell swoop, or do you nickle and dime them to death and try to stay out of reach?

Back in my old EQ days, there used to be a rogue on a PVP server.  He was well known, and I forget his name, but he levelled to 29, and stayed at 29.  All he ever did was PVP, and he generally attacked those of even level or higher level.  He fought battles where he was far outclassed and outgunned, took on classes his little rogue should never be able to beat, and he beat them.  He won.  He was the paper the scissors could never quite cut.  Why was that? Because he knew his class.  He knew his strengths, weaknesses, and he knew how to play.  That's why I hate reading things about "situational balance" and those "rock, paper, scissors" games comments.  In reality, that is the illusion.  Truth is, in any game, any class can beat any other class or what have you if you know how to play.  That is all there is to it.

I like my diversity in games, because I like surprises and challenges.  Taking on opponents that the numbers say I shouldn't be able to beat, and beating those odds.  Like back in the old days of COH, when Ice/Ice Tanks were the bottom of the barrel in tankdom, especially in PVP, I made an Ice/Ice Tank with the express purpose of playing something no one else was playing for the challenge and to surprise people.  I lost my fair share of fights, but I also won many battles against "better" builds, and could out tank just about anyone.

I know I have jumped around in the thought process here, but hopefully you got my meaning. 

"Back in my old EQ days, there used to be a rogue on a PVP server. He was well known, and I forget his name, but he levelled to 29, and stayed at 29. All he ever did was PVP, and he generally attacked those of even level or higher level. He fought battles where he was far outclassed and outgunned, took on classes his little rogue should never be able to beat, and he beat them. He won. He was the paper the scissors could never quite cut. Why was that? Because he knew his class"

I will venture that rogue also took advantage to the well known exploit in EQ where you level up a toon then delevel it so that you keep all your higher level armor, weapons, and skills. You /con as a 29 but in reality are the equivalent to a much higher level character.

That is not balance that is cheating plain and simple. No legit level 29 rogue would have ever beaten another person more then a couple of levels above him assuming they weren't mouth breather basement dwellers.