Originally posted by zaxxon23

Originally posted by sonicbrew

Anyone that buys this crap should stop gaming period because they honestly forgot the reason they started playing games in the first place!

 

This is another problem with the logic of the anti-rmters.  MMOs are not counterstrike, they're not command and conquer, they're not games in the general sense of the word.  They are persistent online environments, with no winner and no loser, and no beginning or end.

You guys just can't comprehend this, and will never understand why you are so darn ignorant about it.  You think it's "clear" that people cheat when they rmt, but you just can't wrap your silly minds around the bigger picture.

Games have rules.
Breaking the rules is cheating.

What were we arguing about again?

It was by pure accident that I found out that way back then in guild Wars you could buy gold for $40 with that virtual currency you could buy minipets /ecto and sell them for $80

People have money to throw around and my stuff used to get sold within a few hours.

I managed to make around $480 on the side till ebay cancelled my account for selling virtual items.

The biggest drawback was I lost love for the game and used to log in only to buy and sell.

In last 10 years of my MMO play that was the only 1 month I bought lots of gold and sold minipets/ectos.

Originally posted by Caleveira

That games got micros, the way they found around gold farmers was to sell the gold themselves... If you had bothered to read some posts in the thread youd find weve adressed that... The internet makes it easy to cheat, yes, and there certainly must be a ton of people out there who suport the gold farmers economy. I already adressed why "everyones doing it" is not an argument (for those of us who managed to get over high school anyway) and really the issue was pretty much settled in ancient Greece.

You are not cheating since youre not breaking the rules in your game, but what we are discussing is buying gold in those games in which it is in fact considered cheating. Unless you have played such games as we are discussing you actually have no factual experience on which to base your opinions, do you?

There's 197 posts in this thread, not including mine, and I skimmed the majority since it mostly seemed that people were either admitting or condemning others for buying gold. In the process I missed that little tidbit addressing Wizard 101. My bad. Also the majority of my posts have been directly addressed to Goatgod76 which is why I quoted him each time. I can't say I have paid attention to your posts outside of addressing me directly. So while you may have been talking about one thing, I was talking about something else also related under the same subject.

Oh and to see the games I have played all you have to do is go to my profile. That will show you if I have any factual experience in the types of games that are being discussed.

Originally posted by heremypet

Originally posted by zaxxon23

Originally posted by sonicbrew

Anyone that buys this crap should stop gaming period because they honestly forgot the reason they started playing games in the first place!

 

This is another problem with the logic of the anti-rmters.  MMOs are not counterstrike, they're not command and conquer, they're not games in the general sense of the word.  They are persistent online environments, with no winner and no loser, and no beginning or end.

You guys just can't comprehend this, and will never understand why you are so darn ignorant about it.  You think it's "clear" that people cheat when they rmt, but you just can't wrap your silly minds around the bigger picture.

Games have rules.
Breaking the rules is cheating.

What were we arguing about again?

LOL that went so far over your head you didn't even see it.  It's almost like (gasp!!) you didn't even read my post!  I'm shocked...

Originally posted by zaxxon23

Originally posted by heremypet

Originally posted by zaxxon23

Originally posted by sonicbrew

Anyone that buys this crap should stop gaming period because they honestly forgot the reason they started playing games in the first place!

 

This is another problem with the logic of the anti-rmters.  MMOs are not counterstrike, they're not command and conquer, they're not games in the general sense of the word.  They are persistent online environments, with no winner and no loser, and no beginning or end.

You guys just can't comprehend this, and will never understand why you are so darn ignorant about it.  You think it's "clear" that people cheat when they rmt, but you just can't wrap your silly minds around the bigger picture.

Games have rules.
Breaking the rules is cheating.

What were we arguing about again?

 

LOL that went so far over your head you didn't even see it.  It's almost like (gasp!!) you didn't even read my post!  I'm shocked...

Perhaps.  Or maybe you're too buried in your own mountain of excuses to see the simple truth.

Originally posted by Forumfall

Originally posted by Chealar

 

---

Originally posted by Forumfall

 

I see no discussion. All I see is selfrighteous people bitching about how RMT has ruined their game. Strange because while I have used RMT in two games I have also played several games without and I didn't find it affecting me. Learn to adopt to the fucking ingame market/economy and stop overdramatizing.

 

The only purpose of these threads is so you guys can point fingers at us and feel better about yourselfes and the shit you 'achieved through hard work' (this one always cracks me up) in your particular game.

*mod edit*

I read through your posts in the profile, and imagine my surprise that you didn't have one post I could find where you made a valid point without being nasty and insulting. This is what we also call a troll. I'm willing to bet my left nut that you cheat in games and you take offense to this topic because of it. 309 posts of garbage, way to go.

Nope, never will either. Buying gold in an MMO is cheating. Cheat in your own games, but when you're cheating in a game that can negatively effect another player (aka, screwing up the in-game economy, technically hurting everyone) then I just see it as selfish.

Douhk, LOVE your gif. lol

FACT; If you fail to honor a legally binding obligation (call it end user license agreement, terms of service, etc.) youre technically in breach of contract.

FACT; If you knowingly pay for third party services in violation of intelectual property rights youre liable for damages.

FACT; If you break a games previously agreed to rules, youre cheating.

People like you are the reason we now live in a society that must have laws concerning such trivial matters as dumping garbage or jaywalking, some people really can't be expected to follow even the most basic tenents of common civility. Now, as no company will ever risk the backlash of suing a sizable part of its player base (even to make an example) and as cheaters will very likely come to defeat any effort to curb their activities, the gold farming industry will continue to grow to a point it will no longer be ignored by government. Laws on MMOs are coming, taxes on micro transactions will very likely be only the begining of it. No doubt conservatives will have their way, and their morality standard will be enforced upon us.

We are all part of one of the most visible online comunities, widespread cheating is just bait for those who feel threatened by internet freedoms. Youre digging all of our graves you small minded cheats. It seems like nothing will ever happen until it does. I still remember a time when you could have a smoke on a transatlantic flight, now you cant even light up a cigarrette on a bar...

Ok, so doomsaying may be nothing but an internet sport. Youre still dishonest. Justify it any way you want, buying gold is basically breaking the rules to get an ingame advantage. Youre cheaters.

I would never buy any in game money, even if it was offered by the game provider legaly too be honest, but definatly not from gold sellers.

They just ruin games.

I played the Runes of  Magic open beta a while back for instance, during the beta everything was quiet on the gold seller front , was refreshing to actually play an MMO without the constant barrage of spam.

Then it goes live and boom , spam , mail messages the works , next thing there has been credit card fraud, as in that game you could buy diamonds for the cash shop which were also tradeable for in game money, diamond trade gets halted, which hurts everyone, then auction prices shoot through the roof and it just became the same old story of every 5 mins having added 3 or 4 people to the ignore list.

I've seen so many games with this problem , which is at the end of the day only supplying the demand other players create, because there will undoubtedly always be people who would much rather spend RL cash on in game money , than work for it.

Its a real shame there isnt a way to stop this from happening , but when people think they can make RL money out of a game and there are buyers willing to buy, being realistic, I don't see it ever ending

yes i have.  Do i regret it?  not really...the economy was soo screwed up i was either going to buy gold or spend about 100 hours grinding out money for the stuff i needed.

I am still very anti gold farmer but i am somewhat more tolerant if the economy is already shot to pieces and there is no way of getting rid of the farmers.

Originally posted by Goatgod76

Tvalentine,

Hi

Try reading the quoted post above and comprehend it. MMORPG's are time-based games. NOT instant gratification based games like console FPS games or any other console game, which is where you seem better suited if you want instant fun and gratification.

no ... i like mmorpgs, but thanks for the reccomendation. If you read my posts, you might have understood that. 

Part of the fun of an MMO is the journey, and is also the point of them. It's what separates them from other games out there, and is where the RPG portion of the abbreviation comes into play. You become more attached to your character and the game through the appreciation of what you've worked for to get. NOT through what's been handed to you via the use of your credit card. Or your parents credit card if that's the case. Also, buying gold has long term negative effects on the community and economy of a given server. As the above poster mentioned, I am willing to bet since you want to buy in-game cash to quicken your fun (As you say), I'm also willing to bet you don't stick around in a given game long enough to see the effects it has on a server.

the 2 games i've done it in, i have played for more then a year (well i've played eve for about 6 months now ... but i'm still playing). And yes mmorpgs are about the journey.... the journey of developing your character not developing your wallet.

It's players like you who rush to the top level, and then complain there isn't enough content for end game players. If on a PvE server, you rage quit, if on a PvP server, probably one of the players who go around endlessly ganking low levels and talk trash about how leet you are despite having bought outside sources gear.

i've only reached the end level in WoW .... every other mmo i havent gotten to the end levels because i've taken my time .... nice guess though, you're wrong. And no i dont go around killing low levels, i perfer the more fair fights in games (WoW battlegrounds, lineage 2 sieges, SWG pvp, EVE small gang battles) You're wrong again.

EDIT: actually i was a pirate in EVE for a few months, although i didnt rub it in that i killed them, i would give them tips and sometimes some isk. I eventually quit piracy back in june.

What's the first MMO you ever played? Bet it's WoW. If not, I appologize, but I bet it is. If not, then it's even sadder that this is your way of thinking. THAT game introduced easy-mode instant gratification to MMO's. I don't care what anyone says. And now every one of those 11 million subs think every MMO should do the same. Most of them have no idea what an MMORPG is suppose to be about, because they haven't played anything but it prior to. I feel sorry for those players, really.

no my first mmo was Ultima online which makes this paragraph moot.

As far as EVE as you mentioned...how much immature idiocy do you see in chat there? Not much, because CCP stuck with making their game have a harsh learning curve, and it takes loads of time to become good. It would be pointless to keep buying ISK in that game without the proper skills (Which are real time based learning). Probably rage quit that game too at some point.

 you have no idea what you're talking about ....

It's mainly the younger people who want everything now now now.

 you shoulda read my earlier post, i mentioned my stance on instant gratification

For those players, the XBox 360 is waiting for you. I find it ironic that games are mainly made with children in mind...and they are the ones who destroy them.

ahh yes the condescending post has ended. Do you feel like you're better then me yet?

wow .... i dont think i've seen so many stereotypes in one post .... ever..... I would also like to quote Kyleran to finish this post.

Originally posted by Kyleran

"Back on topic, RMT doesn't impact games nearly as much as the people who decry it say it does, especially in a game like WOW or EVE where good game design negates any real impact from it.

Lineage 2 was different, gear was very expensive in the early days, and you could either grind for months to earn the next tier, or buy adena and purchase it instead. Blame the game design more than the players."

Originally posted by Caleveira

It is cheating, no two ways about it. As a PvPer it specially bothers me because it gives people without use of experience or skill a chance to be on par with someone who got things done the hard way. Now, i really don't mean to come off as holier than thou about it (i stole booze and cigarrettes from convenience stores more than a few times when i was in high school) but there's no discussion about it being wrong.

<snip>

 

And all other things aside, the internet's anonimity is no excuse for dishonesty.

Then you have obviously never played a MMO with a Cash Shop, that allows new players to level/stat in days what other non-CS players have only accomplished after months of play.  It is the new MMO cashflow model, namely add a cashshop to get even more money from players who have more money than free time, but still want to play with the hardcore.

Originally posted by Montana_Mike

Originally posted by Caleveira

It is cheating, no two ways about it. As a PvPer it specially bothers me because it gives people without use of experience or skill a chance to be on par with someone who got things done the hard way. Now, i really don't mean to come off as holier than thou about it (i stole booze and cigarrettes from convenience stores more than a few times when i was in high school) but there's no discussion about it being wrong.

<snip>

 

And all other things aside, the internet's anonimity is no excuse for dishonesty.

Then you have obviously never played a MMO with a Cash Shop, that allows new players to level/stat in days what other non-CS players have only accomplished after months of play.  It is the new MMO cashflow model, namely add a cashshop to get even more money from players who have more money than free time, but still want to play with the hardcore.

Actually i have played f2ps, not doing that mistake again... I actually did discuss the model in several posts which you would have realized had you read them instead of just picking something random. Those games have diferent rules and they're a legit option for people who want their wallet to play alongside them. It's hardly new and i do hope it wont become a standard in the west. Those games are wallet races and precisely the best example of what happens to gameplay when you allow people to buy their way through a game.

I could never buy any gold.

It would make me feel like a lazy person.

I love grinding anyways LOL!  It makes me happy to  have a "mission".

 Have I bought Gold on an MMO? No. Never will. It's a stupid practice, if you want to play the damned game, play the thing. Don't go buying gold to skip out on playing it. You're paying the frakking 15 dollars a month, why pay MORE just to play LESS of the game? Not to mention you kill the economy, and it is, in short, cheating. Just like hacking, it gives you an unfair advantage and those caught should be perma-banned and no begging, pleading, shoeshining, or rump-kissing should bring it back.

The closest I have come, is buying PLEX on EVE. I bought two, for 35 dollars and sold them off for about 700 million ISK, which I then used to buy a decked out Navy Megathron and pay off a lot of debt I had incurred. Although buying PLEX is a legal activity, through CCP.

Originally posted by tvalentine

 

wow .... i dont think i've seen so many stereotypes in one post .... ever..... I would also like to quote Kyleran to finish this post.

 

Originally posted by Kyleran

"Back on topic, RMT doesn't impact games nearly as much as the people who decry it say it does, especially in a game like WOW or EVE where good game design negates any real impact from it.

Lineage 2 was different, gear was very expensive in the early days, and you could either grind for months to earn the next tier, or buy adena and purchase it instead. Blame the game design more than the players."

 

I'm sorry if it came across that in last part of the post seemed aimed directly at you. I guess I worded it wrong, because it was aimed in general at those that want instant gratification out of MMORPG's. The kid comment was also meant in general.

And in my post where I asked if WoW was your first, and said I was guessing it was, I ALSO apologized in it if I was wrong. Yes, a lot of my post was stereotyping, but honestly, that is what the majority consists of. The minority now (Us) either suck it up and conform to the degeneration of MMO's and it's worsening communities, quit what we love and leave it to the cheaters and punks or fight it tooth and nail with long rants pleading with the community and/or developer's. Usually to no avail, but hey, it's good to get it off your chest at times, and sometimes, some of the right people DO listen.

You must enjoy PvP more than PvE based games I'm gathering based on you played UO and are currently in EVE. I said that in EVE it was mainly pointless to buy ISK because sure, you can buy big pretty ships and equipment for it, but until you know how to use it, or can even fly it (LONG training), it's useless. Or too expensive to risk. WAY too easy to spend tons of RL cash to keep going in a game like EVE. It's SO EASY to lose tons of money in as little as 5 seconds of letting your guard down in EVE. I have a 2+ yr. character I play off and on. Cancel account, resub, rinse and repeat.

No, I don't think I am better than you. Nasty retort, but I guess it was deserved. Much as I'm sure is the case of other old school players, I have a short fuse after seeing the same excuses and comments regurgitated over and over by those that  manipulate the communities and games on a daily basis and see nothing wrong with their actions.

Originally posted by Goatgod76

Originally posted by tvalentine

 

wow .... i dont think i've seen so many stereotypes in one post .... ever..... I would also like to quote Kyleran to finish this post.

 

Originally posted by Kyleran

"Back on topic, RMT doesn't impact games nearly as much as the people who decry it say it does, especially in a game like WOW or EVE where good game design negates any real impact from it.

Lineage 2 was different, gear was very expensive in the early days, and you could either grind for months to earn the next tier, or buy adena and purchase it instead. Blame the game design more than the players."

 

 

I'm sorry if it came across that in last part of the post seemed aimed directly at you. I guess I worded it wrong, because it was aimed in general at those that want instant gratification out of MMORPG's. The kid comment was also meant in general.

And in my post where I asked if WoW was your first, and said I was guessing it was, I ALSO apologized in it if I was wrong. Yes, a lot of my post was stereotyping, but honestly, that is what the majority consists of. The minority now (Us) either suck it up and conform to the degeneration of MMO's and it's worsening communities, quit what we love and leave it to the cheaters and punks or fight it tooth and nail with long rants pleading with the community and/or developer's. Usually to no avail, but hey, it's good to get it off your chest at times, and sometimes, some of the right people DO listen.

 

You must enjoy PvP more than PvE based games I'm gathering based on you played UO and are currently in EVE. I said that in EVE it was mainly pointless to buy ISK because sure, you can buy big pretty ships and equipment for it, but until you know how to use it, or can even fly it (LONG training), it's useless. Or too expensive to risk. WAY too easy to spend tons of RL cash to keep going in a game like EVE. It's SO EASY to lose tons of money in as little as 5 seconds of letting your guard down in EVE. I have a 2+ yr. character I play off and on. Cancel account, resub, rinse and repeat.

 

No, I don't think I am better than you. Nasty retort, but I guess it was deserved. Much as I'm sure other old school players, I have a short fuse after seeing the same excuses, comments regurgitated over and over by those that  manipulate the communities and games on a daily basis and see nothing wrong with their actions.

understandable, now i know you're true stance i kinda feel bad about my post too lol. I apologize for saying you knew nothing about Eve.... i misread it. And yeah i am mostly a pvper so the pve aspect really doesnt interest me too much (gonna try mining here one of these days).

Of course i have!

Back in old school WoW; with my 1st char. When this newbie hunter couldn't afford shit at 40 because of buying arrows and pet food all the way and all of my friends with other classes where happy on their mounts.

Well, I didn't read all 22 pages of this discussion, but here's a novel idea.  If gaming companies are so against gold farming, and if gamers who have the skill (read: lots of free time) to gather the required resources to get the best items and gear feel that their "achievements" have been lessened by the average gamer's ability to simply buy this gear, why don't MMORPG developers get rid of money sinks and have all gear progression done through quest rewards and dungeon drops?  Anything player-made could be non-essential items like appearance armor or house amenities. 

Alternatively, have money sinks, but don't make them annoying grind that they are in today's current MMORPG market.  If needed, have a merchant which sells class specific gear for each specific level range (say, ten levels), and upgrades to that gear are found from quests and dungeon drops.

It's not the players' fault that gold buying has gotten to the point it has.  It's simply the developers for implementing, so many money sinks.  If having to have such large amounts of money wasn't entirely integral to the advancement of your character, players wouldn't feel nearly as compelled to buy gold or whatever currency off of the internet.

Originally posted by SuperXero89

Well, I didn't read all 22 pages of this discussion, but here's a novel idea.  If gaming companies are so against gold farming, and if gamers who have the skill (read: lots of free time) to gather the required resources to get the best items and gear feel that their "achievements" have been lessened by the average gamer's ability to simply buy this gear, why don't MMORPG developers get rid of money sinks and have all gear progression done through quest rewards and dungeon drops?  Anything player-made could be non-essential items like appearance armor or house amenities. 

Alternatively, have money sinks, but don't make them annoying grind that they are in today's current MMORPG market.  If needed, have a merchant which sells class specific gear for each specific level range (say, ten levels), and upgrades to that gear are found from quests and dungeon drops.

It's not the players' fault that gold buying has gotten to the point it has.  It's simply the developers for implementing, so many money sinks.  If having to have such large amounts of money wasn't entirely integral to the advancement of your character, players wouldn't feel nearly as compelled to buy gold or whatever currency off of the internet.

While i certainly apreciate your effort in taking the time to suggest a middle ground solution, i'm afraid this proposal would not do all. It's not only that this would afect people for whom the economy has become an important and enjoyable experience through acitivities like crafting or merchanting, but that MMOs have evolved to a point where a functional trading system has become a core aspect. Not only would players miss it, but you probably would not be able to get rid of it at all as either a much harder to control bartering system would come into place or players would readily find a substitute for gold. To have areas of the game that players enjoy put into the hands of npcs would certainly be unfair as well. Currency (as tender for transactions) ia as much as necesary evil in virtual worlds as it is on ours.

The problem, imo, stems not so much from game design, as certainly clever mechanisms have been succesfully aplied in MMOs. Decay and gold sinks are two good examples, as upkeep expenses require a player to regularly either spend some time collecting resources (ferming, grinding, etc) or to make use of acumulated wealth. It's the economic distortions introduced by both players (not only buying gold, but playing the market, setting prices, etc.) and GMs/Devs (through event items, rules changes, etc.) that really afect economies. Gold buying is particularly nasty (aside from being a cheat) because it not only affects the economy by itself but its significant enough to further encourage disturbances from other sources.

Cash shops and gold auctions are far from sane choices. As a new poster in this forums i made a thread in which i posed the question of wether any f2p had ever manged a long term healthy economy, overwhelmingly the answer was that no such games exists, which i must say sadly matches my own experience. Unlike p2ps which rely on a base of regular subscribers, the f2p model depends on high turnover, meaning they must continuosly atract at least as many players as they loose. They lack decent retention raters not because of low quality, but because the game being turned into a wallet race becomes too demanding. People playing for free must devote an obscene amount of time to making currency, one that increases as they level. Players buying gold also find that the further they level the more expensive the game becomes. It is not unusual for people to spend thousands of dollars in this games. The more time/money you invest the harder it is to quit, although eventually both groups tire and drop the game feeling scammed and disapointed. No doubt some will defend the micro system, it is unlikely they reached endgame or that they played for long.

Gold buying has the same effect as a cash shop on p2p games, except on a much smaller scale. Still, it has enough of an impact that it elicits some of the reactions you can find on this thread. There may be a solution that is fair to both sides but until it is found im afraid the issue will be how efectively can a company "police" its servers.

Nope, I've never bought gold before. In fact, the only time I've ever spent money on games was on the Guild Wars Trilogy and the Eye of the North Expansion. I just happen to be extremely stingy when it comes to money, and sometimes, it can be a good thing.

The one thing that annoys me about gold selling though, is all the spamming, especially if there is no ignore function. I hate the fact that we can barely have conversations in World Chat because of all the gold spamming.

Never bought any, but I don't chastise those that have.  Seems to me a game is played to have fun.   If decking yourself out in all the finery available makes gives you great pleasure, have at it. 

To me the fun in a game is going out and equiping my avatar with what I myself earn.  I don't see the point in becoming rich enough to buy anything, then anything I find in the game is basically useless to me.  Why even bother playing?

Gold sellers destroying the game economy is a red herring.  It is so idiotic as to be stupid.  The own games' designs destroy the environment.  When I get to top level and start an alt I usually have the cash to out spend out buy and out sell any low level character just starting.  Where you as a starting character might only have 10 whatever to spend I will pay 100 to make sure I get it.  Thus people will sell it at 100 to try and get the high level alt player.  Time is what destroys game economies.  Gold selling is what can make a new character in a game competative with long standing games.  The only economies gold sellers can destroy is a game in the first few months of it starting...and I wonder how much gold to price the sellers are actually distributing to people.

Eve Online combats this by spreading out the economy over vast areas and by having the accumulation of isk to be at close to the same levels as beginning players, when compaired to the accumulation as compaired to other games.

So drop the gold sellers ruin the economy bit....it is old.

The bottom line to all this is, you are  ok with cheating in a game or you are  not.  Cheating has gotten more and more acceptable to people in all aspects of life. If your ok with being a cheat  its your decision.  What I see is a lot of people trying to justify it to others and in the end you only have to convince yourself because there are some of us for which this will never be acceptable. So, by all means, buy gold, use bots and use hacks. And when your children or grandchildren  ask you how to play a game you can explain to them how its ok to cheat, because after all, everyone does it right?