lol that's what I thought, everyone bitching about "clones" but can't say which ones ARE clones, or why.

OP: WOW is just a damned good and very fun game to play. Exciiting even in every inch of this BLIZZARD product.

WOW pretty much rolled up the complete mmorpg industry by making an MMO that is fun and great to play.

Both for the hardcore as the casual.

The moment you'll realise that your frustration will end.

I am standing right now in the Hall of Champions, just won an arena fight against 6 random bosses. It is a fun game.

Perhaps you should try it before posting nonsense on Blizzard quality games.

Sorry if you have a very odd taste.

Friendly greetings.

Originally posted by Lansid

lol that's what I thought, everyone bitching about "clones" but can't say which ones ARE clones, or why.

The "clones" are the quest stackers. The games designed to lead you around a game like a dog.

You need examples? WoW, EQ2, Lotro, AoC, WAR, Aion, RoM and many, many more.

Edited :)

Congrats...

Everyone that has read this post is now dumber for having read it!

When will people learn that if they don't have good or remotely correct information on a topic that they need to just avoid the temptation of posting on it?  Oh, that's right, never...

The only reason that Blizzard is as successful as they are is because they have the best available to comsumers, and have since release.  They poured their significant resources into a Hail Mary project that would make or break the company's future and OMGZ...it was a success.  People pay for WoW accounts because while they are looking for that better game, they want something they know to be well developed and refined to fall back on.  Its their comfort zone, its what most of them know and all that most of them know.

The failure is wholly rested upon the shoulders of terri-bad designers trying to put out crap that will make them enough money to work on their pet projects that could be as good as WoW if not better, but will never see the light of day because they soil their name with a bad game so no one will ever buy one of their games ever again.  But that is a whole other problem in itself, which directly impacts the topic at hand because consumers are spoiled with handouts and free/easy levels in games to make it easier to mass market them to people who aren't real gamers, but posers with enough money after buying their mini-van to buy a decent computer as well.

Thank you, that is all.

Originally posted by drbaltazar

Originally posted by Salvatoris

My comment was referencing the fact that some people, through either ignorance or stupidity, think that the common features of MMOs (or RPGs in general) were created by Blizzard and first appeared in WoW.  WoW was EQ2 before EQ2 was.  A clone of a clone is still a copy of the original. ;)

mm everquest  was made in the 199x 

everquest2 was made what 2004 same time as wow 

who copied who you think

eq2 copied everquest1 

wow copied everquest 1

dont believe this? go try eq1 you ll change fast the graphic are same you go in eq1 and you  feel like your in wow

but eq1 was released what 5 -6 years before 

hell some former eq1 dev went to blizzard to dev wow lol

That was my point too... although I was incorrect in thinking WoW launch before EQ2, rather than in the same month.  I was playing SWG and didn't play either of them at launch.  I think EQ was different enough from UO that people weren't calling it a clone, even though it was aiming at the same customer base, and inspired by it's success.  When EQ was a big hit, Bliz decided to get in the game with an almost carbon copy of the game.  Since it was a huge success, everyone decided to get their own MMO in production, copying the same features from EQ that WoW did.  The only thing new WoW brought to the table was mainstream commercial success.  If there was anything from WoW people wanted to copy, that was it... and so far they have all failed in that respect.

Originally posted by metalhead980

I'll play what I want.

It's obvious if you want something other than a linear EQ or WoW knock off indy sandbox games are the only way to go unless you leave MMOs altogether and play single player Rpgs.

Don't bitch about small pop indy sandbox games just sub to them and let the sheep enjoy WoW version 1-100000

Think about it, do you really want these people playing the same game as you? I sure as hell don't.

 

Sheep? Really? Look, it's pretty apparent that millions of people that actually found something enjoyable cause you and those like you misery, let it go. They arn't sheep. I don't have 3 days to wait for skills to train, nice avatar?

It's a matter of opinion, stop insulting people because you can't find anything you enjoy.

Originally posted by Lansid

lol that's what I thought, everyone bitching about "clones" but can't say which ones ARE clones, or why.

Does it occur to you that no one wants to answer your question because they don't think it needs an answer?  It's like asking people to give examples of the grass being green.  It's so obvious to the rest of us that we don't feel like getting in to a debate with you over it.

Originally posted by Lansid

 Ok...

Just out of curiosity...

What the hell is a WoW "clone".

Give one specific example of a WoW "clone", and compare the massive similarities between both games.

I dare you.

Runes of Magic, Perfect World. Play either game for 30 minutes and tell me you don't see the replication of gameplay mechanics and similarities.  No need for step by step comparisons.

But here's a short defintiion of a WOW clone.  

Has clearly defined character classes (with alternate talent specs) that advance through the use of a leveling mechanic from 1-level cap.  (granted, nothing unqiue about these, redone a hundered times)

Now add the element where character advancement is almost solely done via a quest driven game design as characters advance from zone to zone.  This is as opposed to earlier games such as Lineage 2, DAOC and EVE which do not operate in this same manner.

The first two examples in particular had players finding camps of mobs (or entering dungeons) and grinding out experience as they leveled up. (while possible to grind in WOW, its not the standard mechanic and not the most efficient in most cases)

Those other games had quests to be sure, but they were usually to provide some color, perhaps some loot, but players did not advance their characters levels via said quests.

Interface design is part of the equation, and few new games don't use a close copy of WOW's (which is a close copy of AC2), i.e the two I mentioned above but you could throw in AOC, LoTRO and most others into the mix.

Its true, WOW didn't invent most anything I've listed. But they combined them all into a package that the masses flocked to by the millions, and ever since the every new game (see Aion) incorporates many of these elements to the point that players get a weird sense of deja vu when playing a new game.

 everything made after everquest 1 is a wow clone

Originally posted by greed0104

Originally posted by metalhead980

I'll play what I want.

It's obvious if you want something other than a linear EQ or WoW knock off indy sandbox games are the only way to go unless you leave MMOs altogether and play single player Rpgs.

Don't bitch about small pop indy sandbox games just sub to them and let the sheep enjoy WoW version 1-100000

Think about it, do you really want these people playing the same game as you? I sure as hell don't.

 

 

Sheep? Really? Look, it's pretty apparent that millions of people that actually found something enjoyable cause you and those like you misery, let it go. They arn't sheep. I don't have 3 days to wait for skills to train, nice avatar?

It's a matter of opinion, stop insulting people because you can't find anything you enjoy.

Don't assume I have nothing to play due to my hate of linear, simple games.

I enjoy a challenge. A little depth and complexity go a long way.

How anyone could play a game that is exactly the same over and over and over is beyond me.

All of those games give you the same feeling when you play them.

You start in a starting zone fill your log with quests and say "OH no!!!< Not this again!!"

I'm sorry but I refuse to play the same shit over and over like you guys.

Edited for Mod approval sorry :)

Here, you want a Sandbox MMO, a real sandbox, not a WoW or EQ clone?

Research what CCP is working on as their pet project...if done right, all dopplegangers will fall...WoW included!

Originally posted by Salvatoris

...  When EQ was a big hit, Bliz decided to get in the game with an almost carbon copy of the game.  Since it was a huge success, everyone decided to get their own MMO in production, copying the same features from EQ that WoW did.  The only thing new WoW brought to the table was mainstream commercial success.  If there was anything from WoW people wanted to copy, that was it... and so far they have all failed in that respect.

You really think WOW is a carbon copy of EQ?  Have you played both games=)  Its like saying Sonic was a carbon copy of Super Mario Bros. because they were both side scrollers and you killed things by jumping on them.    Only in the most basic terms do they resemble each other.   Levels, classes, Humans, Elves...thats about it.  Heck, EQ started changing to adapt to WOW.

if you enjoy WoW then this post isn't against you, its these other game jumpers who say "omg WoW sucks .....", yet bitch when a new game doesn't have "X Y or Z like WoW'.

this post is for those with WOW accounts yet come to this forum and bitch because theres nothing different on the market.

people that say blame the game developers are idiots. Most game developers are just in it for the money (duh) and investors are definately in it for the money. so if you were going to put millions into a new project and your choices were ...

a Game with WoW like qualitys (linear, theme park) or an open world like Ryzom, which would you throw your millions at?

and if you say the game like Ryzom ... you're lying.

Originally posted by Josher

Originally posted by Salvatoris

...  When EQ was a big hit, Bliz decided to get in the game with an almost carbon copy of the game.  Since it was a huge success, everyone decided to get their own MMO in production, copying the same features from EQ that WoW did.  The only thing new WoW brought to the table was mainstream commercial success.  If there was anything from WoW people wanted to copy, that was it... and so far they have all failed in that respect.

You really think WOW is a carbon copy of EQ?  Have you played both games=)  Its like saying Sonic was a carbon copy of Super Mario Bros. because they were both side scrollers and you killed things by jumping on them.    Only in the most basic terms do they resemble each other.   Levels, classes, Humans, Elves...thats about it.  Heck, EQ started changing to adapt to WOW.

ok maybe i worded it wrong 

wow is a watered down version of eq

1 ounce of eq for 100 ounce of water 

makes wow

Originally posted by Ravanos

if you enjoy WoW then this post isn't for against, its these other game jumpers who say "omg WoW sucks .....", yet bitch when a new game doesn't have "X Y or Z like WoW'.

this post is for those with WOW accounts yet come to this forum and bitch because theres nothing different on the market.

people that say blame the game developers are idiots. Most game developers are just in it for the money (duh) and investors are definately in it for the money. so if you were going to put millions into a new project and your choices were ...

a Game with WoW like qualitys (linear, theme park) or an open world like Ryzom, which would you throw your millions at?

and if you say the game like Ryzom ... you're lying.

I stand corrected...NOW everyone reading this thread is dumber for having read it.

Investors give money to proven design models, yes.  The blame is on developers because they only develop for money...because they only develop with mass market in mind.  The same mass market that will pay $50 for the game and $15 for the first month and then cancel the account because "it takes too much time to level" and "I have a life"...its the posers who buy our games that are the direct cause for all the shitty games out on the market and for crappy developers who are content with putting out shit that fits the general mold of designs today just to make a buck.

The day that a developer loses the fear of not having the mass market buy their game is the day that a great game will be born.

Forgot to add this to my original post, but for references to what I mean, please see DOOM, GTA, and any other game that got bad press in the beginning for taking it to the extreme.  AD&D got bad press in the beginning, and even still today, because it was outside the box...funny thing is that it paved the way for every MMO out today...not too bad for devil worshipping eh?

Those are all the best games, period.

THAT IS ALL.

Companies making new games to the WoW/EQ formula isn't the problem.

The problem is that they're making bad games, period.

The PvE themepark is a proven success; shoddy implementation is what is causing the downfall of the recently released games and the blame for that can only be ascribed to those directly responsible; the developers themselves.

Blaming Blizzard for other developers making bad PvE themeparks?
Blaming PvE themepark players for developers making bad PvE themeparks?

Ridiculous. The blame lies with the developers making the bad PvE themeparks.

Condemning players for continuing to subscribe to a PvE themepark that they don't play anymore .. I can see the logic in that; it's a waste of money and it artificially increases the developers perspective of the popularity of their game mechanics.

So a WoWclone = quest leveling?

Granted yes it gets old after the 5000th "Kill <mob> and bring me <x>+<insert body part>" quest. But in all fairness, it was a massive step up above the previous bar setter Everquest (NeverQuest) because quests were worthless or the majority of them were broken. So the masses in Everquest, didn't quest, they grinded. Grinding/camping is much more boring than questing. Grinding/camping, you get in groups for the best possible spot for your level, and kill the same group of mobs over and over and over again, till you finally level. Then you find the next best possible spot, rinse and repeat.

With questing, at least you had the sense of "moving around" and keeping busy, rather than farming the same mobs over and over again because there was no other way of leveling up.

On that note, hopefully the new Final Fantasy will reopen up the fact that MMO's shouldn't be just about getting to the next level (as sort of like UO), and maybe it'll lead to a mass exodus of WoW and the "clones". Then you'll just see "FFXIV clones."

Blizzard earned it. As some said.. if there are WoW clones how come none of them became anywhere near as popular. It's because Blizzard is the one that's doing it right. None have lived up to WoW and none will in the foreseeable future. They are a solid company that gives it's player what they want. Even those that complain about little things still play because the overall experience is solid.

I too am sick of hearing about "WoW clones" and I too am annoyed that WoW overshadows everything else. But at least I can be honest with myself and others when I say WoW is a great game and deserves being on top. I'm not a huge fan of WoW but it did everything right.

1. If the available sandbox games on the market were better then more people would play them.
2. If more people played those sandbox games, more companies would try to emulate their success.
3. Rewarding a sub standard product with money will only encourage companies to continue making bad products.

Stop blaming the failure of sandbox games on the success of theme park games.  Nothing is stopping sandbox games from being successful except the companies making less than competitive products. 

The only reason wow is so successful is due to the sad state of the mmo genre right now.  When other companies figure out how to create games that players want to play the market will even out and *gasp* maybe even get a little more variety.

This mentality of "give money to companies and hopefully things will change someday" is exactly why the market is so screwed up right now.  People willing to pay money for the hopes that someday things MIGHT get better is exactly what has led developers to believe they can rush any piece of crap to market and people will pay for its final phase of development. 

In essence Ravanos, you are advocating in favor of what is killing most games.  Sorry.

Originally posted by Lansid

So a WoWclone = quest leveling?

Granted yes it gets old after the 5000th "Kill <mob> and bring me <x>+<insert body part>" quest. But in all fairness, it was a massive step up above the previous bar setter Everquest (NeverQuest) because quests were worthless or the majority of them were broken. So the masses in Everquest, didn't quest, they grinded. Grinding/camping is much more boring than questing. Grinding/camping, you get in groups for the best possible spot for your level, and kill the same group of mobs over and over and over again, till you finally level. Then you find the next best possible spot, rinse and repeat.

With questing, at least you had the sense of "moving around" and keeping busy, rather than farming the same mobs over and over again because there was no other way of leveling up.

On that note, hopefully the new Final Fantasy will reopen up the fact that MMO's shouldn't be just about getting to the next level (as sort of like UO), and maybe it'll lead to a mass exodus of WoW and the "clones". Then you'll just see "FFXIV clones."

Until MMOs begin to bring pve to the level of single player Rpgs quest stackers will blow.

Why would anyone want to complete a entire log of lame quests? Give me a MMO with interesting pve and I will stop bashing quest stackers.

Originally posted by metalhead980

Originally posted by Lansid

So a WoWclone = quest leveling?

Granted yes it gets old after the 5000th "Kill <mob> and bring me <x>+<insert body part>" quest. But in all fairness, it was a massive step up above the previous bar setter Everquest (NeverQuest) because quests were worthless or the majority of them were broken. So the masses in Everquest, didn't quest, they grinded. Grinding/camping is much more boring than questing. Grinding/camping, you get in groups for the best possible spot for your level, and kill the same group of mobs over and over and over again, till you finally level. Then you find the next best possible spot, rinse and repeat.

With questing, at least you had the sense of "moving around" and keeping busy, rather than farming the same mobs over and over again because there was no other way of leveling up.

On that note, hopefully the new Final Fantasy will reopen up the fact that MMO's shouldn't be just about getting to the next level (as sort of like UO), and maybe it'll lead to a mass exodus of WoW and the "clones". Then you'll just see "FFXIV clones."

 

Until MMOs begin to bring pve to the level of single player Rpgs quest stackers will blow.

Why would anyone want to complete a entire log of lame quests? Give me a MMO with interesting pve and I will stop bashing quest stackers.

 

Well that depends, what single player RPG in particular would you reference as the idea crossover for a MMO?

Originally posted by Daffid011

1. If the available sandbox games on the market were better then more people would play them.
2. If more people played those sandbox games, more companies would try to emulate their success.
3. Rewarding a sub standard product with money will only encourage companies to continue making bad products.

 

Stop blaming the failure of sandbox games on the success of theme park games.  Nothing is stopping sandbox games from being successful except the companies making less than competitive products. 

The only reason wow is so successful is due to the sad state of the mmo genre right now.  When other companies figure out how to create games that players want to play the market will even out and *gasp* maybe even get a little more variety.

 

This mentality of "give money to companies and hopefully things will change someday" is exactly why the market is so screwed up right now.  People willing to pay money for the hopes that someday things MIGHT get better is exactly what has led developers to believe they can rush any piece of crap to market and people will pay for its final phase of development. 

 

In essence Ravanos, you are advocating in favor of what is killing most games.  Sorry.

 

 

 

So just curious, if you are a chick, can we have babies together please?...LOL

So in essence almost every single mmo (other than leveless games such as EVE) are wow clones. Even EVE has quests or missions that you can complete. What other way is there to create a game? A pure grind game where there is nothing to do but killing? A Diablo without levels is what you want? Everyone blames the developers or players or whatever, now explain what solutions could there be. This is a microcism of politics in the world, everyone bitches but provides no solutions.

Originally posted by Lansid

Originally posted by metalhead980

Originally posted by Lansid

So a WoWclone = quest leveling?

Granted yes it gets old after the 5000th "Kill <mob> and bring me <x>+<insert body part>" quest. But in all fairness, it was a massive step up above the previous bar setter Everquest (NeverQuest) because quests were worthless or the majority of them were broken. So the masses in Everquest, didn't quest, they grinded. Grinding/camping is much more boring than questing. Grinding/camping, you get in groups for the best possible spot for your level, and kill the same group of mobs over and over and over again, till you finally level. Then you find the next best possible spot, rinse and repeat.

With questing, at least you had the sense of "moving around" and keeping busy, rather than farming the same mobs over and over again because there was no other way of leveling up.

On that note, hopefully the new Final Fantasy will reopen up the fact that MMO's shouldn't be just about getting to the next level (as sort of like UO), and maybe it'll lead to a mass exodus of WoW and the "clones". Then you'll just see "FFXIV clones."

 

Until MMOs begin to bring pve to the level of single player Rpgs quest stackers will blow.

Why would anyone want to complete a entire log of lame quests? Give me a MMO with interesting pve and I will stop bashing quest stackers.

 

 

Well that depends, what single player RPG in particular would you reference as the idea crossover for a MMO?

That's A good question actually.

Lets see..... Off the top of my head I would say We should have A handful of main storylines that take you all the way through the leveling process.

Kinda like Final fantasy quality shit, with cinematics, giant boss fights, good loot and skills. Then if you decide to stray from the main story it should be more random quests but interesting ones like the Oblivion DLC quests like Knights of the nine that sprawl also.  You could still have a few generic quests like the ones we have now but those would be just filler and not really make a difference in the whole pve experience.

I also think all dungeons should have storylines and if you ever played DDO a narrator in the beginning to set the mood lol.

Im going to think more on this but seriously MMOs are so bland on the pve side of things I'm sure this could be a thread topic all its own with the amount of Ideas people would have.

Originally posted by drbaltazar

Originally posted by Josher

Originally posted by Salvatoris

...  When EQ was a big hit, Bliz decided to get in the game with an almost carbon copy of the game.  Since it was a huge success, everyone decided to get their own MMO in production, copying the same features from EQ that WoW did.  The only thing new WoW brought to the table was mainstream commercial success.  If there was anything from WoW people wanted to copy, that was it... and so far they have all failed in that respect.

You really think WOW is a carbon copy of EQ?  Have you played both games=)  Its like saying Sonic was a carbon copy of Super Mario Bros. because they were both side scrollers and you killed things by jumping on them.    Only in the most basic terms do they resemble each other.   Levels, classes, Humans, Elves...thats about it.  Heck, EQ started changing to adapt to WOW.

ok maybe i worded it wrong 

wow is a watered down version of eq

1 ounce of eq for 100 ounce of water 

makes wow

More like WOW is a cleaned up version of EQ, fun and entertaining rather than tedious=)   People prefer drinking 1 ounce of clean water instead of 100 ounces of muddy slop.