Originally posted by darqserenity

Originally posted by Gameloading

Originally posted by darqserenity

 

Ok so I have played everything from EQ to Wow and Lotro, and I have to say, I enjoyed leveling in WoW but EQ always held my attention a little better. In games like EQ you had to watch yourself or you would get hammered, you had to play to your classes strengths and avoid extremely dangerous areas until you were of level to deal with the mobs there.  In WoW you could be a level 10 and go anywhere, as long as you stayed on the road you were safe, leveling was quick and easy, 3 and 4 level difference in mobs just means better drops, in Lotro its even worse than WoW, 5 lvl difference.. lol give me a half dozen, elites 4-5 levels higher are not even a match.  Where is the challenge in these games? In EQ lvl 40 meant something, it meant you had played a game hard and suceded in making it, In WoW lvl 40 is given to you like a christmas present wraped in a shiney little ribbon, In Lotro, they forgot the ribbon and give it to you on a platter with potatoes and carrots.  When I play a game I want at least a semblance of a challenge, make it difficult for me to kill an even level elite, make even level mobs easy at one on one but if I get two, hurt me.  Make lvl 40 a challenge again, shit make 20 a challenge, weed out those who only want to chat and make themselves look pretty in new armor, give me a mmorpg that requires an IQ over that of a merlock to succed at.

 

In games like Conan, it was close, the challenges offered there were a nice change,  they didn't make it much harder than WoW or Lotro but they made it different, that was cool.  But ultimatly even Conan lost my attention because of the lack of new material and experiences.  Are we asking for too much in a game?  One that can hold our attention like WoW, that is a challenge like EQ, and has the inventivness of Conan?

 

As for Full loot PvP, why not, strip down to your skivies and fight like a man if you don't want your goodies taken by the boogy man, PvP is your choice, make it interesting.  and As far as corpse runs, yeah I loved it in EQ, it made Dieing mean something you wanted to avoid at all costs.  In games like Lotro I went my first 17 lvls without getting killed, I made it almost to 40 before I fell again and then to 52 before another, corpse runs?  Even if games like WoW and Lotro had corpse runs you would run them so little they wouldn't bother you, how could you get tired of something you only do once every 10-12 levels?

You're confusing punishing with challenge. Just because a game takes more away from you doesn't mean that the actual challenge increases, just the amount of time spend is increased to get back to where you where.

Reaching a high level in an old grind game such as Everquest didn't mean you were a good player, it simply meant you played the game for a long time. in WoW, you can't go anywhere. As you already mentioned yourself, you're only able to stay on the roads which is a very small portion of the entire world. How is this less challenging? It's not like you're making any progress or as if there is a real point to travel the world on roads only.

What you're saying makes little sense. if a game is built on one on one fights, that suddenly makes it more challenging than a game that is built to take multiple enemies on at the same time? So a game like WoW is more challenging than City of Heroes because you fight more enemies at the same time than in WoW? MMORPGs have never been truly challengings as the only skill required is pressing the right key at the right button, which is very easy to learn. When you die in mmorpgs, it's usually because
 

You agrod a mob above your level
A mob spawned near you and agrod you
A mob suddenly walks into your agro range.

The reason why you die less in modern mmorpgs is because these annoyances have been reduced.

The dead you describe only means frustration and setback. I don't really see how that makes a game more enjoyaable

Give me those annoyances give me something that makes me watch my back and fear death, give me a set back if I die, punish me for failing.  Make me work for something in a game. I want it to be a game again and not an interactive chat room.  Seriously man, do you enjoy a game where you have to aggro six or seven mobs just to get hurt, where you have to work to die?  why play? where is the rush you should get from fighting?  Where is the fun in being a bully to weak mobs? 

In most cases if you can do quests in a zone there are very few mobs in that zone that can surprise, respawn or step up on you and have a hope in hell of killing you. Your right the skill needed to play most MMOs is slight and if you have half a brain and know your character these games present very little that can be remotely challenging.  They go from easy to impossible with nothing in between that makes you hold your breath or pucker your butt.  As far as challenging, I don't care if I have to fight one or a dozen, I want them to be able to kill me if I don't play my character right.  I want the game to force me into these difficult positions that I might not survive. As was stated in an earlier post, right now to make most games interesting you have to play outside of the games intentions. 

In short I want a MMORPG that presents a challenging factor just shy of Ninja Gaiden 2, I want a game that makes leveling fun again and not just a means to an end.

 

 

Thank you Darq
 

FYI

"The dead you describe only means frustration and setback. I don't really see how that makes a game more enjoyaable."

"dead": do you mean "death"

Most adults learn not to be frustrated. O and to help from being frustrated, stop dying.

" I don't really see how that makes a game more enjoyaable."

And yes sir, "you don't see" has been the problem with this toppic and forum from the beginning.

I play chess because I learn from it, or should I say I learn from my opponent. If my opponent plays well and makes me think, that makes the game more enjoyable. If I lose in a game of chess, I learn from it and that also makes the game more enjoyable. When I loss, that is telling me that I'm playing a opponent that is equiel to me in ability, and I need to slow down and THINK.

So what are you telling us about your abilitys? That you don't like to slow down? That you don't need to think? Or slowing down and thinking is not enjoyable to you? Winning is the only enjoyment that you receive from playing OLGs? That the games being made are hard to you already? That you don't learn from being frusted? Or is it that you simply do not "SEE" how easy online games have become?

PLease let use know, maybe we can help you understand!

First lets review the definition of challenge as it applies to playing an MMO...

Challenge :  (noun) 

                      1.   difficulty in a job or undertaking that is stimulating to one engaged in it.

                       2.  a call or summons to engage in any contest, as of skill, strength, etc.

                      

You're confusing punishing with challenge. Just because a game takes more away from you doesn't mean that the actual challenge increases, just the amount of time spend is increased to get back to where you where.

 

Admittedly EQ did have more punishments than modern MMOs but they did add to the risk and thus added to the challenge of playing the game.   Also the time it takes to progress and level was longer which also meant you were required to manage the risks of the environment longer which equates to a greater challenge.

 

Reaching a high level in an old grind game such as Everquest didn't mean you were a good player, it simply meant you played the game for a long time. in WoW, you can't go anywhere. As you already mentioned yourself, you're only able to stay on the roads which is a very small portion of the entire world. How is this less challenging? It's not like you're making any progress or as if there is a real point to travel the world on roads only.

 

The ability to travel safely in WOW is less challenging than in EQ where the MOBs wandered everywhere.  You had to constantly be aware of your surroundings and carefully plot your course and avoid dangerous MOBs that you couldn't simply sprint away from to escape.   Also you need to understand that death meant you would lose experience points and possibily lose levels so building a high level character was more difficult due to the setbacks, aka..  difficulties, aka.. challenges.

 

What you're saying makes little sense. if a game is built on one on one fights, that suddenly makes it more challenging than a game that is built to take multiple enemies on at the same time?

A game that is scaled for a player to fight a single equal level MOB becomes more of a challenge due to the risk of agroing additional enemies which will likely cause you to die.  A game scaled around fighting multiple equal leveled MOBs at once reduces the risk that additonal MOBS bring and thus reduces the need to manage agro and be aware of your environment.

 

So a game like WoW is more challenging than City of Heroes because you fight more enemies at the same time than in WoW?

I haven't played City of Heroes but if it uses a similar system to WoW then yes, if COH is scaled for a single players to fight even more equal level MOBs  then it reduces the risk and challenge of combat even further.

 

MMORPGs have never been truly challengings as the only skill required is pressing the right key at the right button, which is very easy to learn. When you die in mmorpgs, it's usually because
 

You agrod a mob above your level
A mob spawned near you and agrod you
A mob suddenly walks into your agro range.

 

The challenge in EQ wasn't simply pressing the right button,  it was being aware of your environment, making good choices and managing risky situations.   Failure to do any of the above well resulted in death, item loss and xp loss.

 in WoW you can practically ignore your surroundings due to the scale of the game with players being able to easily kill multiple foes or simply out run them.  Choices still need to be made in WoW but poor choices have not impact,  the game has a built in "Do Over" system to prevent any negative impact.  The level of Risk in WoW is so low that it is mostly ignorned,  combat is scaled so players win almost be default, auto attacking down MOBs while you make a sandwhich isn't a challenge.   And finally the lack of any conseqence of death, the ultimate  "do over" systems that WoW built removes any tangible risk from the game which neutures what little challenge WoW has.

 

 The reason why you die less in modern mmorpgs is because these annoyances have been reduced.

The reason you die less in modern MMOs is because the developers have made it easier to win, thus less challenging.

 

The dead you describe only means frustration and setback. I don't really see how that makes a game more enjoyable.  

The death and setback isn't enjoyable, that is the point.  The penalties give risk to combat which makes it more of a challenge since you stand to lose something substantial.  It is the challenge that old  EQ players are looking for, a challenge that measures the success of the players and doesn't prop everyone up as being an automatic success because they simply logged in and road all the rides in themepark.

 

Next time you play Poker with your friends, bet using real money say $ 100.00.  The game becomes completely different when you stand to lose something significant.    

Originally posted by Gameloading

Originally posted by ray12k

Your dead wrong about AC, lol so the rest of your points have no merrit.

Yes, MCD's is for people who do not know any better such as you it seems or thouse who can not afford proper food which might be you, as well

To be honest your views are the kind that have been killing the mmorpg community. You will attach yourself to what ever crap they fill in a bun and call it yummy.

WOW and PVP do not go together, WOW was made for warcraft fans. It is not a solid game nor will it ever be.

You are an IDIOt.

You make no sense whatsoever. Do you honnestly believe that people who eat at MCdonalds never ate anything else or can't afford it? I wonder what loops of logic you had to jump through to get to that conclussion.

I'm the one who has been killing the mmorpg community? Actually I'm not nor do I attach myself to crap. I play games I enjoy and sorry to inform you but that isn't Counterstrike Online. You know who have been killing the mmorpg community? People like you have.

Just listen to yourself. You're implying I'm poor and can't afford proper food and call me an idiot simply for having a different opinion than you and it's me who is "killing" the mmorpg community?

WoW has always been a solid game. There is a good reason why it's so popular and received so much critical praise.

Sometimes people can get heated on the forums, but all the name calling aside....

WoW is a solid game.  It is amazingly successful.  It is very popular.  It is also entertaining for many people.

But is isn't challenging compared to the systems used in EQ.  WOW has a skewed risk vs reward model that all but removes risk and shovels on the rewards.  This builds an environment where it is hard to find satisfaction for players that like a challenge.   Hench the hundreds of threads about the "easy mode"  MMOs vs. the Old School MMOs.

Rutaq,  you get what I was trying to say, thank you for the wonderful posts.

Darq

i agree with the Op here.

It seems like alot of things in mmo games have just become stagnant. Its like Everyone is using teh same stuff. I remember when mmos were built to make you feel like you were in another world. Thats what i miss. I think this is one of teh reason why no mmo has really done that well since FFXi, WOW, and EVE. on the West side. Those games make you feel like your in a world. Its a shame really. I thougt i would never stop playing MMMOs, but lately i havent found a game i really want to play because everything is just all the same old shit.

rutaq

Great post

Originally posted by brostyn

No recent MMO has brought me the joy that EQ and DAoC used to bring. I really never found EQ as fun as DAoC, but its way better than the junk we've seen. At least I played that game for 6 straight months without hitting the cancel button. Nowadays I hit the cancel button in one week.

I think it's just as simple as people not being able to get past their first love or first MMORPG.

People who started out with WoW and loving it will go on message boards 10 years from now claiming that MMORPGS are crap by WoW standards. While the ancient ones like you and me will talk about DAoC and EQ like people talk about MUD's today.

EQ and DAoC players are from a different generation that just haven't catched on to the new stuff or simply doesn't want to. Just like my old man 65 years old only listening to 60's music because to him, that was the only era where music was worth listening to. I was born in the 70's and i prefer 80's early 90's music to the crap that has been released after the year 2000. I mean take a look at rap music today...utter crap...but it sells.

Yup i believe it's as simple as that.

Originally posted by rutaq 

Sometimes people can get heated on the forums, but all the name calling aside....

 

WoW is a solid game.  It is amazingly successful.  It is very popular.  It is also entertaining for many people.

 

But is isn't challenging compared to the systems used in EQ.  WOW has a skewed risk vs reward model that all but removes risk and shovels on the rewards.  This builds an environment where it is hard to find satisfaction for players that like a challenge.   Hench the hundreds of threads about the "easy mode"  MMOs vs. the Old School MMOs.

What was so challenging about everquest in comparison? 

EQ's reward system was far more skewed than Wow or just about any other game I can think of right now.  Putting massive amounts of valueless timesinks does not make something challenging.  Camping an access key for 40 hours per raid guildmemeber does't require skill.  Camping a static spawn for 8 hours hoping a rare named mob spawns isn't challenging.

Furthermore the reward system limited the entire server to certain content on a weekly basis.  That is to say only a small handful of players even got a chance to try for a reward each week.  The rest of the server was shit out of luck if for example they lived in a different timezone. 

Remove the artificial timesinks and limited spawn timers in everquest and I think you are left with a game that is relatively easy in comparison to modern mmos.  The majority of everquest was made up of zerg rush tank and spank encounters, both raid and group encounters.

Not that there were not any aspects that made EQ hard, but most of it was artificial.  Even the forced grouping aspect is rather artificial.  Also I am not disagreeing that wow throws items at players at silly rate, but that doesn't mean it is devoid of challenge.  Wow does not force a player to wear the same item for 20 levels, thats all.

Don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed everquest and it was a difficult game for its time.  I just don't agree with the whole line of thinking that EQ was 'walk up hill both ways without shoe to school' hard. 

Originally posted by grandpagamer

A corpse run  or some meaningful death  penalty is needed to keep the players honest.  What makes getting to the new area fun and exciting if not the chance of some kind of penalty other than a respawning area and a few silver for repairs?  You should fear death not just respawn, repair and do it again.  Im not one for , losing everything you have and being left naked but something that stings a bit is a good thing.

How does that keep anyone honest?  If you have a severe death penalty, all you're doing is keeping people from playing the game and that's all it is, like it or not, a game.  If I know I have to fear death, why am I going to ever do anything dangerous?  Why am I going to take those risks?

I don't want death to sting, I want death to be a reminder that something went wrong and a lesson about how to do things right from here on out.

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by grandpagamer

A corpse run  or some meaningful death  penalty is needed to keep the players honest.  What makes getting to the new area fun and exciting if not the chance of some kind of penalty other than a respawning area and a few silver for repairs?  You should fear death not just respawn, repair and do it again.  Im not one for , losing everything you have and being left naked but something that stings a bit is a good thing.

 

How does that keep anyone honest?  If you have a severe death penalty, all you're doing is keeping people from playing the game and that's all it is, like it or not, a game.  If I know I have to fear death, why am I going to ever do anything dangerous?  Why am I going to take those risks?

I don't want death to sting, I want death to be a reminder that something went wrong and a lesson about how to do things right from here on out.

   Games with significant penalties for death are still games.  

   They are just games that have more risk and more challenge as you avoid the greater risks.   You may not want to be callenged as much and that is fine but many players would rather be overly challenged by harsh penalties then play the popular less challenging MMOs.

Originally posted by Daffid011

What was so challenging about everquest in comparison? 

EQ's reward system was far more skewed than Wow or just about any other game I can think of right now.  Putting massive amounts of valueless timesinks does not make something challenging.  Camping an access key for 40 hours per raid guildmemeber does't require skill.  Camping a static spawn for 8 hours hoping a rare named mob spawns isn't challenging.

Furthermore the reward system limited the entire server to certain content on a weekly basis.  That is to say only a small handful of players even got a chance to try for a reward each week.  The rest of the server was shit out of luck if for example they lived in a different timezone. 

 

Remove the artificial timesinks and limited spawn timers in everquest and I think you are left with a game that is relatively easy in comparison to modern mmos.  The majority of everquest was made up of zerg rush tank and spank encounters, both raid and group encounters.

Not that there were not any aspects that made EQ hard, but most of it was artificial.  Even the forced grouping aspect is rather artificial.  Also I am not disagreeing that wow throws items at players at silly rate, but that doesn't mean it is devoid of challenge.  Wow does not force a player to wear the same item for 20 levels, thats all.

 

Don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed everquest and it was a difficult game for its time.  I just don't agree with the whole line of thinking that EQ was 'walk up hill both ways without shoe to school' hard. 

 

  Well I played on Rallos Zek so time sinks while having to wait in a popular spot for a MOB spawn had it's own set of risks due to item loss on PvP death.

  Fighting over contested MOB spawns is a challenge, especially on a PvP server.

 Having farm key drops for guild members is a challenge, even if it just a challenge to have the patience to complete the task.

  Removing time investment, no matter how artificial,  reduces the effort, time, and patience need to play.  

Challenge doesn't always mean something requiring more skill to complete, it could mean requiring more thought, more patience, more dedication, more effort, more desire, more fortitude, etc...

Mainstreams MMOs are challenge-lite,   they simply take LESS from the player to be successful.

I loved WoW for the first few months,  but once I gorged myself on the easy mode play and rode all the attractions I felt empty and want something with lots more risk and much less reward.

 Sadly I must be a dying breed,  since my $15.00 for another EQ like game  is buried under a mountain of millions of dollars people throw at low challenge games.

I think it all comes down to personal preference. A game can't possibly satisfy everybody. Not everybody likes the same thing.

Maybe the more modern MMOs have content that makes a high level easily kill anything. If that's what some people like, that's the kind of game they'll play. If someone else likes to have more something more challenging and have a game with more action that you can "feel" like they're actually in the game, that's the kind of game that they like to play.

This seems to be related to how our new generation likes  "cool" and "I'm naturally better than you" media that usually involves a famous figure that effortlessly annihilates the rival. Our society propels this standard and the new gamers strive for this archetype.

I'm a starving player, but for different reasons.  I feel MMORPGs require too much time on a weekly basis to be a member of a community.  They also require a lot of un-fun work like leveling, learning vernacular and catching up to veterans.  For a newbie to look at the original games there isn't any incentive to play them because the communities are too difficult to break into.  MMOs are fads and it is fun to play while everyone else does and only a matter of time before the amount of work becomes not fun and you look to something else.  I'm looking for my 5th MMORPG to play and for the past 4 months I've only looked at games that have not come out yet because I'm looking for something ground-breaking and new.

1. Quests are a horrible concept and have always bothered me.  No one else cares or even notices when you complete a quest and "epic" quests get completed by everyone making them ... well... not epic.

2. Class balance and re-balance requires re-learning a class every year or so even if you are familiar with the game.

3. Item powers and abilities change drastically over time and it becomes very difficult to keep up with what is state of the art unless you spend lots of time out of game doing research (on external websites I might add). 

4. Don't even get me started on sites like WoWhead.com that flourish on Blizzards refusal to make an in-game database.  Why do I have to alt-tab to look up stats on an item or find out where it drops?  That is GARBAGE and laziness.

We are starved not because we need Ultima Online clones or Everquest clones, but because those games changed the world of gaming and nothing modern has done anything remotely close.

One poster wrote:

"You are not seeing a lack of good games you are seeing a lack of what YOU want. You are not better than any other mmo gamers so what YOU want is in no way a more righteous choice than what other people want. The market stopped catering to your wants for whatever reason..."

Sure, I can understand the pioneers being left behind...too bad for us...BUT...

there hasn't been a 'sandbox/open world' AAA fantasy MMORPG released in a long time...I could put up with playing a niche game, if only one was released.

Um. if I missed one please let me know. Would love to play a skill based game where faction and crafting and PvP and your choice of guildmates really made a difference. And please no training wheels on the quests. Like the arrows over the quest givers' heads...haha....

Stanley.

Hey look a new MMO

WORLD OF FARMING

You play a character that grows food, you know plowing, watering, some type of plant.

Reward if you bring your crops to market, 1,000,000,000,000 gold and you buy the world, game over.

Risk, loss your crop, get a endless amount of gold from the bank and start over.

I fill as though this is the type of MMOs in the world today.

PS Sorry in that new game I was wrong, the watering is done for you.

Originally posted by rutaq

Originally posted by Daffid011

What was so challenging about everquest in comparison? 

EQ's reward system was far more skewed than Wow or just about any other game I can think of right now.  Putting massive amounts of valueless timesinks does not make something challenging.  Camping an access key for 40 hours per raid guildmemeber does't require skill.  Camping a static spawn for 8 hours hoping a rare named mob spawns isn't challenging.

Furthermore the reward system limited the entire server to certain content on a weekly basis.  That is to say only a small handful of players even got a chance to try for a reward each week.  The rest of the server was shit out of luck if for example they lived in a different timezone. 

 

Remove the artificial timesinks and limited spawn timers in everquest and I think you are left with a game that is relatively easy in comparison to modern mmos.  The majority of everquest was made up of zerg rush tank and spank encounters, both raid and group encounters.

Not that there were not any aspects that made EQ hard, but most of it was artificial.  Even the forced grouping aspect is rather artificial.  Also I am not disagreeing that wow throws items at players at silly rate, but that doesn't mean it is devoid of challenge.  Wow does not force a player to wear the same item for 20 levels, thats all.

 

Don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed everquest and it was a difficult game for its time.  I just don't agree with the whole line of thinking that EQ was 'walk up hill both ways without shoe to school' hard. 

 

 

  Well I played on Rallos Zek so time sinks while having to wait in a popular spot for a MOB spawn had it's own set of risks due to item loss on PvP death.

 

  Fighting over contested MOB spawns is a challenge, especially on a PvP server.

 Having farm key drops for guild members is a challenge, even if it just a challenge to have the patience to complete the task.

 

  Removing time investment, no matter how artificial,  reduces the effort, time, and patience need to play.  

 

Challenge doesn't always mean something requiring more skill to complete, it could mean requiring more thought, more patience, more dedication, more effort, more desire, more fortitude, etc...

 

Mainstreams MMOs are challenge-lite,   they simply take LESS from the player to be successful.

 

I loved WoW for the first few months,  but once I gorged myself on the easy mode play and rode all the attractions I felt empty and want something with lots more risk and much less reward.

 Sadly I must be a dying breed,  since my $15.00 for another EQ like game  is buried under a mountain of millions of dollars people throw at low challenge games.

Originally posted by rutaq 

 

  Well I played on Rallos Zek so time sinks while having to wait in a popular spot for a MOB spawn had it's own set of risks due to item loss on PvP death.

 

  Fighting over contested MOB spawns is a challenge, especially on a PvP server.

 Having farm key drops for guild members is a challenge, even if it just a challenge to have the patience to complete the task.

 

  Removing time investment, no matter how artificial,  reduces the effort, time, and patience need to play.  

 

Challenge doesn't always mean something requiring more skill to complete, it could mean requiring more thought, more patience, more dedication, more effort, more desire, more fortitude, etc...

 

Mainstreams MMOs are challenge-lite,   they simply take LESS from the player to be successful.

 

I loved WoW for the first few months,  but once I gorged myself on the easy mode play and rode all the attractions I felt empty and want something with lots more risk and much less reward.

 Sadly I must be a dying breed,  since my $15.00 for another EQ like game  is buried under a mountain of millions of dollars people throw at low challenge games.

I still believe that adding needless timesinks into a game does not make it challenging.  Adding timesinks simply for no other reason that to consume time doesn't make the GAMEPLAY challenging.  That was the core design of much of everquest.  Players spent more time waiting than actually playing and I'm sorry, but that isn't difficult in any way.  Sitting around for long periods of time isn't an accomplishment.  The concept behind these artificial barriers was to keep players subscribed longer by stretching out the time required before players could participate in the content that was actually fun and challenging.

Gameplay should not be measured by patience and never be measured by time.  Doing something that is easy for 1 hour is just as easy on the 10th hour of doing the same thing.  Maybe even easier as you find ways to streamline and expidite the process. 

Let me put it to you this way. 

If Warcraft required each player to kill 1,000,000 level 1 goblins every single level for 80 levels, forced players to wait 24 hour for EACH boss to spawn AFTER they went into a dungeon, denied enterence to any dungeon without getting a 1 in 15,000,000 loot drop from level 37 orcs, etc.  Would you then say warcraft is the hardest most challenging game on the market?  

Do you see my point?  Putting in a bunch of bullshit downtime filled with mindless busywork doesn't make something a challenge.  They only thing that challenges is a players patience.

It is not hard or difficult to waste time waiting for things to spawn for access quests.  Sorry. 

The majority of everquests difficulty was overcome by copious amounts of playtime and having enough people with the ability to log on before a competiting guild did. 

P.S. Sure pvp made it more challenging, but that wasn't due to the game design.  That was due to live players which you will find on any other mmos pvp servers.  That wasn't something unique to everquest and actually is something very limited in EQ since pvp was such an afterthought and only on 1 or 2 servers out of the 30+. 

Please don't misunderstand my desire for a more difficult game.  I would like a game the rewards/encourages more grouping, more exploring, more danger, more meaningful rewards, less solo quest grinding, etc.  However my desires for such a game doesn't change the nature of what EQ was or what made it appear challenging. 

This entire year was terrible for games in general, probably due to the fact that economy sucked the budgets out of a lot of studios. Next year should be better as a whole bunch of MMOs ar likely to be released, all equally worthy of following.

Originally posted by Gameloading

Originally posted by nanoviper

It's been 10 years since the release of Ultima: Online, back in good old 2009 we would have thought that by now games would be on such a level classics like Ultima, Asherons Call, and Everquest, would pale in comparison. However it is now 2009, and most gamers who have played MMO's for any period of time would agree that nothing on the market today can even live up to these original releases.

       Nostalgia aside, when critically examining these games, it appears as though with each new release the games are being dumbed down; It reminds me alot of the Mike Judge movie: Idiocracy where overtime people became dumber and dumber as technology allowed them more and more luxeries. 

       What I have been wondering is why no games with depth and challenge have been introduced to the market since 2003; The closest we have come is darkfall (don't get me started on that tangent) and in many ways I don't even feel as though, it has lived up to it's potential.

     Am I the only one who feels like this? Is that why there are no more deep challenging games on the market? What do you guys think?

Actually I think most players will agree that not only do mmorpgs released after those games lived up to those games: They exceeded them.

It's not that games are getting dumbed down, it's that needlessly complications that arised in those games have been removed. The vast majority of gamers do not find having your entire inventory looted by a playerkiller of which you had no chance against the in first place an entertaining, nor is losing many hours of progress trying to get to your body in Everquest. That's not depth, thats punishing gameplay that doesn't add anything to the entertain value of the game whatsoever.

Also it's silly to point towards Aion and call it a grind after you called Everquest a classic. Everquest defined grinding.

quoted in yellow.--------- Why do people like it so much and always make posts about missing it? Obviously there is something there.

Originally posted by cichy1012

Originally posted by Gameloading

The vast majority of gamers do not find having your entire inventory looted by a playerkiller of which you had no chance against the in first place an entertaining, nor is losing many hours of progress trying to get to your body in Everquest. That's not depth, thats punishing gameplay that doesn't add anything to the entertain value of the game whatsoever.

quoted in yellow.--------- Why do people like it so much and always make posts about missing it? Obviously there is something there.

Usually the only people who miss it are the gankers who are doing it in the first place.  They want your stuff.  The people who actually get ganked aren't so hot on the idea.

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by cichy1012

Originally posted by Gameloading

The vast majority of gamers do not find having your entire inventory looted by a playerkiller of which you had no chance against the in first place an entertaining, nor is losing many hours of progress trying to get to your body in Everquest. That's not depth, thats punishing gameplay that doesn't add anything to the entertain value of the game whatsoever.

quoted in yellow.--------- Why do people like it so much and always make posts about missing it? Obviously there is something there.

 

Usually the only people who miss it are the gankers who are doing it in the first place.  They want your stuff.  The people who actually get ganked aren't so hot on the idea.

and what do you base that on?

Without a meaningful real danger in game, there is no reason to play it.   There can be no real joy without disappointment.

Originally posted by 4Renziks

People need to realize mmo is an addiction.  The reason you guys are not finding any fun in any of the new game is because the high is never as high as your 1st MMO....most people are now trying to reach that high that they got from their 1st MMO but its something that will never be reached...most of these games are not bad games...its just not what you want them to be.   MMORPG's are the hardest games to develop because they are so massive that there can be on thing that turns people away.  I use to be like the people that bash all new games, but when i realized that iam never going to feel the way i did about FFIX in any other game.....even 14! This has help me to enjoy MMO's more than i use to instead of being so emo. 

Sorry, but that is a huge cop-out. That's like saying the same thing for single player games, but there have been alot of single player games that I play now that are way way better than Super Mario Brothers. My first MMO was Everquest, and while I do miss some aspects of that game, I have to admit that WoW was a way better game. At least at first.

Honestly, MMOs have not changed that much over the years. The players have. And therefore the companies that make the content have changed to suit the new attitudes players have adopted. MMOs used to be about community and exploration more than anything ( in my opinion), but nowadays its all about loot. Where once players status was defined by their reputation as a person and their ability as a player, now status is determined by gear and stats.

And the companies want to make money, so of course they are going to cater to the new generation who is the majority (it seems). Therefore you will get alot of the same content until players' attitudes toward the content change. Who knows if that will ever happen. To me it only seems to be getting worse and worse. The only saving grace is that multiplayer shooters and single player games in general have been getting better and better.

Originally posted by rutaq

First lets review the definition of challenge as it applies to playing an MMO...

Challenge :  (noun) 

                      1.   difficulty in a job or undertaking that is stimulating to one engaged in it.

                       2.  a call or summons to engage in any contest, as of skill, strength, etc.

                      

You're confusing punishing with challenge. Just because a game takes more away from you doesn't mean that the actual challenge increases, just the amount of time spend is increased to get back to where you where.

 

Admittedly EQ did have more punishments than modern MMOs but they did add to the risk and thus added to the challenge of playing the game.   Also the time it takes to progress and level was longer which also meant you were required to manage the risks of the environment longer which equates to a greater challenge.

No it doesn't because as I said it just increases the timesink. Great risk does not equal a greater challenge. It's like the old NES games that offered no continues. Instead of letting you continue and re-try the level you failed, the game puts you back at the very beginning of the game, forcing you to go back through all those levels you already beat. The system you're describing is the same thing: You simply have to do things again that you had already done before. That's not an increase in challenge, that's an increase in repetition.

 

Reaching a high level in an old grind game such as Everquest didn't mean you were a good player, it simply meant you played the game for a long time. in WoW, you can't go anywhere. As you already mentioned yourself, you're only able to stay on the roads which is a very small portion of the entire world. How is this less challenging? It's not like you're making any progress or as if there is a real point to travel the world on roads only.

 

The ability to travel safely in WOW is less challenging than in EQ where the MOBs wandered everywhere.  You had to constantly be aware of your surroundings and carefully plot your course and avoid dangerous MOBs that you couldn't simply sprint away from to escape.   Also you need to understand that death meant you would lose experience points and possibily lose levels so building a high level character was more difficult due to the setbacks, aka..  difficulties, aka.. challenges.

You can't travel safely in WoW. the only areas you can visit are the roads and there is no content there. Ofcourse you need to take a good look around you every once in a while but that's the case with every mmorpg that has an agro system.  Losing a level means you first have to go back to old content to get back that level again. That's not challenging, because you're doing content that you already did before. That's just time consuming.

 

What you're saying makes little sense. if a game is built on one on one fights, that suddenly makes it more challenging than a game that is built to take multiple enemies on at the same time?

A game that is scaled for a player to fight a single equal level MOB becomes more of a challenge due to the risk of agroing additional enemies which will likely cause you to die.  A game scaled around fighting multiple equal leveled MOBs at once reduces the risk that additonal MOBS bring and thus reduces the need to manage agro and be aware of your environment.

No it doesn't because games that are built with fighting multiple mobs at the same time also have an increase in the amount of mobs around you at any time. Just because the game is built around fighting multiple mobs at the same time doesn't mean you can't agro too many.

 

So a game like WoW is more challenging than City of Heroes because you fight more enemies at the same time than in WoW?

I haven't played City of Heroes but if it uses a similar system to WoW then yes, if COH is scaled for a single players to fight even more equal level MOBs  then it reduces the risk and challenge of combat even further.

I noticed you haven't.I adressed this above.

MMORPGs have never been truly challengings as the only skill required is pressing the right key at the right button, which is very easy to learn. When you die in mmorpgs, it's usually because
 

You agrod a mob above your level
A mob spawned near you and agrod you
A mob suddenly walks into your agro range.

 

The challenge in EQ wasn't simply pressing the right button,  it was being aware of your environment, making good choices and managing risky situations.   Failure to do any of the above well resulted in death, item loss and xp loss.

 in WoW you can practically ignore your surroundings due to the scale of the game with players being able to easily kill multiple foes or simply out run them.  Choices still need to be made in WoW but poor choices have not impact,  the game has a built in "Do Over" system to prevent any negative impact.  The level of Risk in WoW is so low that it is mostly ignorned,  combat is scaled so players win almost be default, auto attacking down MOBs while you make a sandwhich isn't a challenge.   And finally the lack of any conseqence of death, the ultimate  "do over" systems that WoW built removes any tangible risk from the game which neutures what little challenge WoW has.

Combat is scaled? Only to a very, very small way of hit/miss/crit rate on mobs way beyond your level that you wouldn't be able to kill anyway.

The challenge in EQ was pressing the right button as in every mmorpg. Being aware of your environment, you make it sound as if this is a challenging thing to do. Mobs walk around slowly and aimlessly often in an open field. They won't hide from you. Making good choices? And how do you do that? Ah yes,by simply pressing the right button at the right time. Heal when you're damaged badly, taunt when you need agro, a skill to do more damage. It's not exactly rocket science we're talking about here.

It's not like poor choices have no impact. If you pick the wrong talents, your character will suffer in terms of strength. If you die all you have to do is go back to your spawn point so the game doesn't make you feel like you have wasted your time. It seems that this challenge you speak of is nothing more than simply have your time wasted.

 

 The reason why you die less in modern mmorpgs is because these annoyances have been reduced.

The reason you die less in modern MMOs is because the developers have made it easier to win, thus less challenging.

 I don't know why I said die less, I probably had that word in my head for some reason and it doesn't make sense with anything else i said, sorry for the confusion. What I meant is the reason why you grow faster in modern games is because these annoyances have been reduced.

The dead you describe only means frustration and setback. I don't really see how that makes a game more enjoyable.  

The death and setback isn't enjoyable, that is the point.  The penalties give risk to combat which makes it more of a challenge since you stand to lose something substantial.  It is the challenge that old  EQ players are looking for, a challenge that measures the success of the players and doesn't prop everyone up as being an automatic success because they simply logged in and road all the rides in themepark.

Next time you play Poker with your friends, bet using real money say $ 100.00.  The game becomes completely different when you stand to lose something significant.    

It doesn't make the combat more challenging, just more punishing. What you're asking for is a game to say "you got killed by that boss? Well go back to those mobs you were killing earlier and grind on those for 2 more hours before you can try again". The actual boss encounter doesn't become any more challenging, the game doesn't ask any more of your skills as a player if you lose experience and levels or not. It just asks more of your time.

 

 

 

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by cichy1012

Originally posted by Gameloading

The vast majority of gamers do not find having your entire inventory looted by a playerkiller of which you had no chance against the in first place an entertaining, nor is losing many hours of progress trying to get to your body in Everquest. That's not depth, thats punishing gameplay that doesn't add anything to the entertain value of the game whatsoever.

quoted in yellow.--------- Why do people like it so much and always make posts about missing it? Obviously there is something there.

 

Usually the only people who miss it are the gankers who are doing it in the first place.  They want your stuff.  The people who actually get ganked aren't so hot on the idea.

 Sadly, I was more often on the recieving side of ganks but I certainly miss the danger and risk that EQ had.

Heck I have recently started playing Runes of Magic a F2P game that looks likes WOW's little brother just because it has things like PvP penalties aka criminal system,  Item loss in PvP,  XP debt penalty for Deaths and  Items that are destroyed at 0 durability.

    Sure it has easy mode quests, is very solo friendly, looks cartoony like WoW and Monty Hall with magic items...  BUT... It has an element of Risk that NONE of the mainstream MMOs have.