Originally posted by Horusra

I love people with their morality when it comes to gold buying.  These are the same people that pledge to obey traffic laws and then speed because they want to get somewhere a little faster.  How immoral.  Probably fudge their income tax returns, taste food in the self serve bins at a grocery store, lie atleast once a week about something, make fake sick calls to work to have a day off....etc. 

And I'm the schlub going 55 on the highway getting honked at for NOT speeding so you have some nerve passing judgments on this poster - I do none of those things.  Is it so unbelieveable that some ppl have morals and follow the laws? Is that so unfathomable? Damn, I must be an alien. I don't date men for money. I don't cheat other ppl to get ahead. I don't lie to save your feelings. I don't excuse everything I do flippantly as if it never affects anyone else. What kind of society are we in that anyone that would call out deplorable behaviour must be the ones that are secretly at fault.

Least of all do I cheat in a damn video game - I can pass judgment on those that do because they have no excuse and they do affect the game around me in economy in prices but you've heard my opinion - disgusting freaking cheaters. Once again, get caught and deserve it.

Originally posted by skarwolf

Originally posted by Reklaw

Originally posted by skarwolf

 The first time I encountered this was back in Everquest.  My friend played a bard and we had banded and brass armor and some crappy weapons.  One day he shows up totally decked out in awesome gear.  I asked how he got all that stuff and he told me he bought gold online and not to say anything because you could get banned.  He gave me 500 plat which was a huge amount for me at the time.

I bought gold in EQ2 & WOW.  I'd create a character who got the gold then transfer it in parts to other other characters.  I tried two different companies.  One sent me the gold directly in bulk to whatever character I specified.  Another had some ridiculous method where I had to contact them on the phone and speak to them directly telling them who I was and what character it was.

Heres a way to find out at least in WOW.  They had me place 1 single bandage on the auction set at 200 gold, since I was getting 1000 gold they had me put up 5 bandages.  The person then bought the bandages and I got my money and it appeared legit.  I was never suspended or banned and I bought gold about 3-4 times in WOW.

To the question of "have you bought gold"
No never have and never will.

Secondly I like to know how your experiance was with those games you bought gold in.

Did it improve your fun? Your experiance within the gameworld? Did it expand your playtime?

Yes it improved my fun because I could obtain items I wanted that I normally couldn't.  Primarily making a uber twink hunter with all the best enchants that I kept in the 30's bracket for a few months.  When I moved to the next bracket I bought another 1000 gold and did the same thing all over again.  

I feel that buying gold will decrease playtime, something I don't want out of a MMORPG.

How would it decrease your playtime ?  If you have the option of spending weeks doing gathering, crafting, buying selling off the AH or paying 20 bucks for 500 gold and getting what you'd like...  If you consider that negative by decreasing the amount of time you play.. well thats your perogative.

I also believe it limits the challenge to achieve something as why achieve or put effort into a game if you buy your way to the top.

You can't buy no drop items from the end game at least in WOW so you're hardly buying your way to the top.  Besides some of the best guilds out there buy gold to afford all the required potions and consumeables.  The best guild in the world even admitted it.

Overall I feel it makes up for a very boring experiance in doing so, kinda how I feel about cheats as they also limit the experiance tenfold. In a way I consider people who buy gold to be wanna be gamers.

You're probably one of those people who I one shot in the BG's.

So that's why I asked how your experiance was/is and would you continue doing so in other games?

 

 So as dumbed down and nerfed as WOW is, you still found the need to cheat?  I pity your lack of skill is all i can think of to say at such a thing.

Originally posted by ChrisMattern

 

---

Originally posted by kamenwati
I bought gold once, and I didn't (and still don't) feel the least bit bad about it. I know it means the terrorists win, but I'd much rather be out money equivalent to 0.5 hours of work instead of spending 20 hours of my free time. I already despise the fact that I have to grind RL cash, so why should I waste my time grinding fake money too?

---

 

So, to sum up, you didn't enjoy playing the game, so you paid someone else to play it for you. Good for you.

Perhaps if money-grinding was at the core of the MMO experience, I would consider your idiotic leap of logic a success, but it isn't. It's just another time sink. I'm sorry you feel threatened by the fact that I have a job and don't have time to run around in circles killing the same mob hundreds of times day and night just to be able to afford basic shit. That just isn't fun for me, and I'd rather spend my FREE TIME (HINT HINT NOT AT MY JOB) having FUN instead of playing an aspect of a game that's really more of a job than a game.

Originally posted by kamenwati

Originally posted by ChrisMattern

 

---

Originally posted by kamenwati
I bought gold once, and I didn't (and still don't) feel the least bit bad about it. I know it means the terrorists win, but I'd much rather be out money equivalent to 0.5 hours of work instead of spending 20 hours of my free time. I already despise the fact that I have to grind RL cash, so why should I waste my time grinding fake money too?

---

 

So, to sum up, you didn't enjoy playing the game, so you paid someone else to play it for you. Good for you.

Perhaps if money-grinding was at the core of the MMO experience, I would consider your idiotic leap of logic a success, but it isn't. It's just another time sink. I'm sorry you feel threatened by the fact that I have a job and don't have time to run around in circles killing the same mob hundreds of times day and night just to be able to afford basic shit. That just isn't fun for me, and I'd rather spend my FREE TIME (HINT HINT NOT AT MY JOB) having FUN instead of playing an aspect of a game that's really more of a job than a game.

I dont have time to get the uber gear, poor me, i will cheat and get it instead. That will show them.

@gramps: Yep, basically. Congratulations on paying a game company for the privilege of performing slave labor.

Edit: Oh, and while I'm at it, I'm gonna go to the grocery store and CHEAT by buying food instead of growing and slaughtering it myself, and then I'm going to go to the mall and CHEAT by buying clothing instead of sewing it myself. Shit, I'm even on a laptop right now that I got by CHEATING by not hand-manufacturing myself. Wake up, folks. Money-grinding does not belong in gaming. Don't blame the buyers and sellers--blame the game designers.

Originally posted by kamenwati

@gramps: Yep, basically. Congratulations on paying a game company for the privilege of performing slave labor.

 

Edit: Oh, and while I'm at it, I'm gonna go to the grocery store and CHEAT by buying food instead of growing and slaughtering it myself, and then I'm going to go to the mall and CHEAT by buying clothing instead of sewing it myself. Shit, I'm even on a laptop right now that I got by CHEATING by not hand-manufacturing myself. Wake up, folks. Money-grinding does not belong in gaming. Don't blame the buyers and sellers--blame the game designers.

No, i blame the cheaters. If you do not know whats involved with playing an MMO maybe you should do some research. And if you dont have time to invest in playing the game the way it was meant to be played maybe you should find something to do you can take pride in, instead of trying to justify cheating to those of us that know the difference.

I will certainly do more research into this "Emm Emm Oh" thing. I've only been playing them for 10 years, so I guess that still makes me kind of a noob. In my mind, you create your own gaming experience. If all you care about is your items, then you deserve to have your experience ruined by someone taking a shortcut. While you're busy crying about gold buyers, I'm enjoying the game how I want to enjoy it: exploring the world and chatting with friends. Looks like the cheaters win! Later, gramps!

Cheaters never win, they're just better at fooling themselves into believing that they have.

Again, its the entitlement mentality.  Some think they are entitled to the best of everything without putting in the time to get it.

No, Im not against gold either but I am against the gold selling banners/ads and tells in game.

Really what's with the "i have a job" excuse, you think spending time on a desk entitles you to anything? People who don't have jobs are working on their education wich is just as valuable, and they have families too. I have a job, and a life as well, I go out with my friends 2-3 nights a week (yea, we drink, and i get wasted) sometimes more. I'm dating the coolest woman you could ever hope to meet (still trying to make her curious about MMOs) i work out every morning, i still try to make time to play the guitar, i'm reading a couple of books and i do follow the news and football matches (i will put MMOs on hold during the world cup). I live in a city where traffic makes it a nightmare to go anywhere... It sometimes feels like a dog's life but i even make time to post on forums (granted, that's mostly time i should be working) and yea, there are weeks i have to give up on some things because all this "multitasking" can drive you crazy. I'm willing to bet most people playing MMOs have to juggle as many things and that i'm far from exceptional.

Just cause some of you may be pencil pushers doesn't give you a right to cheat, go play f2p games if you want money to give you an advantage. And btw, "i have a job" people, i am a lawyer... So don't come to me with sillly arguments about virtual property because all you have in legal terms is a contract with a service provider. Legaleese aside the purpose of said contract is playing a game, and bottomline is no judge or jury in the world will ever accept the argument that you can break a game's rules (to which you did consent) because you feel entitled to someone else's intelectual property. ToS allows a company to permaban you if they catch you and they should. Technically is not just cheating but breach of contract and that means no liability on their part.

I tried not to make it about morals and even admitted to breaking the law in my youth. But what you're trying to justify just comes down to disrespect for fair play. It's like doping in sports except on a much more pathetic level. Why don't you try doing it in Vegas? I'm sure they'll let you off the hook cuz you're pressed for time and can't spend a couple of months in a casino. Oh, but it's easy over the internet and you can get away with it... You're cheats. Anything you may claim to have acomplished in a game it's a lie. You really are the worst kind of noob.

Gramps, I'm going to break it down for you so that you'll understand.

First of all, unless you've found a potion of everlasting life, Time = Money.

Now, lets say I want to buy some "Basic Shit" (BS) that I deem is necessary for me to enjoy the game as it has been presented to me. This BS costs 200 gold.

I can either

a) farm 10 hours at 20 gold/hour
b) buy 200 gold for 10 bucks

In Real Life (AKA where the Sun is), lets pretend that I can make 10 bucks in about half an hour.

WHY OH WHY should I spend 10 hours for something that I could get in half an hour?

Is time spent in-game somehow magically more valuable (or even invaluable) in comparison to time spent out-of-game? I'm pretty sure that I'm still 10 hours closer to death (maybe moreso if my diet consists of hot pockets) when I spend that time in-game rather than out-of-game.

What if a good friend of mine gives me the 200 gold? Is this also cheating, or is it only cheating if I pay money? Or is it only cheating if I pay money to CHINESE PEOPLE (OH NOES!)?

Edit for the Lawyer: I'm not using "I have a job" as an excuse--I'm merely pointing out that clearly time has a monetary value, and a job makes for a strong comparison.

Originally posted by kamenwati

Gramps, I'm going to break it down for you so that you'll understand.

First of all, unless you've found a potion of everlasting life, Time = Money.

Now, lets say I want to buy some "Basic Shit" (BS) that I deem is necessary for me to enjoy the game as it has been presented to me. This BS costs 200 gold.

I can either

a) farm 10 hours at 20 gold/hour
b) buy 200 gold for 10 bucks

In Real Life (AKA where the Sun is), lets pretend that I can make 10 bucks in about half an hour.

WHY OH WHY should I spend 10 hours for something that I could get in half an hour?

Is time spent in-game somehow magically more valuable (or even invaluable) in comparison to time spent out-of-game? I'm pretty sure that I'm still 10 hours closer to death (maybe moreso if my diet consists of hot pockets) when I spend that time in-game rather than out-of-game.

What if a good friend of mine gives me the 200 gold? Is this also cheating, or is it only cheating if I pay money? Or is it only cheating if I pay money to CHINESE PEOPLE (OH NOES!)?

Edit for the Lawyer: I'm not using "I have a job" as an excuse--I'm merely pointing out that clearly time has a monetary value, and a job makes for a strong comparison.

 

If you believe time equals money i must say you did pick the wrong hobby.

Yours is an argument thats actually very familiar to me, i mean grand theft auto can net you a couple of months worth of honest work in just about an hour... and there is adifference in between a friend giving you a car as a gift and you buying a stolen vehicle. But lets put ethics aside for a minute.

Why not buy an acount? Theres only a diference in degree from saving yourself 10 hours grinding to actually getting to level cap without any effort. And while youre at it why wouldnt you get some endgear too? I mean, anyway you slice it actual irl work will always be more cost effective than playing. I mean you probably just want to raid or PvP anyway... both of which you could do more efectively playing an fps. I mean, you could save yourself both time and money just doing that. Theyve got massive comunities as well. You get to have your cake and eat it too.

The whole point to an MMORPG is advancing on a persistent world. You put time and effort (ideally have fun doing it) and the end result is you get to be part of a competitive comunity. If youre taking shortcuts not only are you a lying fraud (on the comunity side) but you really arent competitive at all. Leaving morals aside, whats the point? Or do you think that because you only cheated a little it doesnt take anything away from that?

Gold farmers have a very negative effect on the comunity as a whole. Ok, so perhaps this doesnt affect you because you dont stick around for long. What are people with this mentality doing playing games that require so much time? Is it that you like to go to cities and show off? Brag about what you actually didnt acomplish? Is it the char creation and playing dress up with toons? Or is it "necesity"? Cant keep up with the no lifers but want to have all the perks. Or maybe you just think they should provide with a mount from day one? Because if they did im fairly certain youd be missing something else and whatever it is the point is you want what other people have without putting in the effort.

Its kinda like wanting to be a rock star but not wanting to go trough the effort of learning how to play an instrument. If you follow your own argument through there really is no reason to play an MMO at all...

Originally posted by Caleveira 

there really is no reason to play an MMO at all...

 

In your opinion.

Originally posted by kamenwati

Gramps, I'm going to break it down for you so that you'll understand.

First of all, unless you've found a potion of everlasting life, Time = Money.

Now, lets say I want to buy some "Basic Shit" (BS) that I deem is necessary for me to enjoy the game as it has been presented to me. This BS costs 200 gold.

I can either

a) farm 10 hours at 20 gold/hour
b) buy 200 gold for 10 bucks

In Real Life (AKA where the Sun is), lets pretend that I can make 10 bucks in about half an hour.

WHY OH WHY should I spend 10 hours for something that I could get in half an hour?

Is time spent in-game somehow magically more valuable (or even invaluable) in comparison to time spent out-of-game? I'm pretty sure that I'm still 10 hours closer to death (maybe moreso if my diet consists of hot pockets) when I spend that time in-game rather than out-of-game.

What if a good friend of mine gives me the 200 gold? Is this also cheating, or is it only cheating if I pay money? Or is it only cheating if I pay money to CHINESE PEOPLE (OH NOES!)?

Edit for the Lawyer: I'm not using "I have a job" as an excuse--I'm merely pointing out that clearly time has a monetary value, and a job makes for a strong comparison.

 

lol this post made me laugh a couple times, best post in this thread.

I play mmorpgs for fun. I dont find grinding for isk (lets use eve as an example) very fun. Especially since it takes hours to do and the better ships i fly are quite expensive, so when i lose a ship pvping (which some weeks happen alot) i lose time having fun because i have to spend time grinding to make the isk back. Albeit some people enjoy doing some of the tasks of gaining isk... i am not one of those people. So i buy Game time cards and sell them for isk (same as buying isk pretty much, except the people buying never have to pay any RL $$ to play) so i can enjoy myself in the game. I dont know why people cant comprehend that people pay extra to enjoy themselves more in mmorpgs.

TBH i have nothing against buying gold because gold cant buy player skill. There are people in eve in very expensive ships with very expensive modules fitted that they bought through selling GTCs. And there are plenty of cases where these people lose these ships to smaller cheaper ships with more skilled pilots. Same goes for other games, people who buy gold and get kickass gear are probably going to be terrible, unless you run across the occasional player who buys gold to stay competitive in what he does. You can call it cheating, which it probably is, but tbh i do it so i can enjoy my time more so i really dont give a shit what some random person on the internets thinks of it. Lastly no i dont buy gold in every game, Just the times i mentioned earlier and eve.

Originally posted by tvalentine

Originally posted by kamenwati

Gramps, I'm going to break it down for you so that you'll understand.

First of all, unless you've found a potion of everlasting life, Time = Money.

Now, lets say I want to buy some "Basic Shit" (BS) that I deem is necessary for me to enjoy the game as it has been presented to me. This BS costs 200 gold.

I can either

a) farm 10 hours at 20 gold/hour
b) buy 200 gold for 10 bucks

In Real Life (AKA where the Sun is), lets pretend that I can make 10 bucks in about half an hour.

WHY OH WHY should I spend 10 hours for something that I could get in half an hour?

Is time spent in-game somehow magically more valuable (or even invaluable) in comparison to time spent out-of-game? I'm pretty sure that I'm still 10 hours closer to death (maybe moreso if my diet consists of hot pockets) when I spend that time in-game rather than out-of-game.

What if a good friend of mine gives me the 200 gold? Is this also cheating, or is it only cheating if I pay money? Or is it only cheating if I pay money to CHINESE PEOPLE (OH NOES!)?

Edit for the Lawyer: I'm not using "I have a job" as an excuse--I'm merely pointing out that clearly time has a monetary value, and a job makes for a strong comparison.

 

 

lol this post made me laugh a couple times, best post in this thread.

I play mmorpgs for fun. I dont find grinding for isk (lets use eve as an example) very fun. Especially since it takes hours to do and the better ships i fly are quite expensive, so when i lose a ship pvping (which some weeks happen alot) i lose time having fun because i have to spend time grinding to make the isk back. Albeit some people enjoy doing some of the tasks of gaining isk... i am not one of those people. So i buy Game time cards and sell them for isk (same as buying isk pretty much, except the people buying never have to pay any RL $$ to play) so i can enjoy myself in the game. I dont know why people cant comprehend that people pay extra to enjoy themselves more in mmorpgs.

TBH i have nothing against buying gold because gold cant buy player skill. There are people in eve in very expensive ships with very expensive modules fitted that they bought through selling GTCs. And there are plenty of cases where these people lose these ships to smaller cheaper ships with more skilled pilots. Same goes for other games, people who buy gold and get kickass gear are probably going to be terrible, unless you run across the occasional player who buys gold to stay competitive in what he does. You can call it cheating, which it probably is, but tbh i do it so i can enjoy my time more so i really dont give a shit what some random person on the internets thinks of it. Lastly no i dont buy gold in every game, Just the times i mentioned earlier and eve.

I have also sold GTCs in eve. Great way to make some quick ISK in a legit way.

I wonder if all these haters still consider it cheating when it's allowed...? I mean, it is the exact same thing, but you are not breaking the EULA. Only difference is that the money is going to the game company, not the Chinese gold farmers or whoever!

Why are all these busy body syndrome.  Its a game, play and log out when you are done.

Why bother how others play their game?  Why bother if anyone buys gold.  Why all the pretentious morals, lecturing others as if there is a righteous way to the path of gaming.

On the other hand, it is very well known that many gold seller are hackers.  Buying from them is a personal moral judgment.  I will never buy from them, but I won't go out preaching anything like that is gospel.

Originally posted by spinach8puff

Playing MMOs is a hobby. Buying something to aid me in my hobby isn't a big deal in my opinion. It's like using bait while fishing. Yes, I could just use a hook and waste hours upon hours hoping to get a little closer to my goal, but I could die tomorrow. I want to get as far as I can with the time I am allotted.

And what if your bait was polluting the river ? Because that's exactly the problem here, and why so many people are against it. Cheating in a solo game ? That's your choice. Cheating in a multi game ? You're negatively affecting others.

Personally, I think you're wasting your money on a virtual asset. USD is harder to get than ISK or gold. Gold is easy to farm and the point is, the games a hobby not real life. Why would I waste my real life money on a game I'm already paying for when I can already EARN those items in-game.

My point is, it's a game. You want to earn these things. I sold accounts on Halo 3 because I could 50's in MLG easily. Well, those people didn't earn those 50's and so no one liked them. Same thing applies here. You didn't earn you status i.e. gear, wealth, level. So no one will respect you.

Originally posted by xanphia 

You want to earn these things.

no .... no i dont... atleast not all of em.

Originally posted by tvalentine

Originally posted by xanphia 

You want to earn these things.

 

no .... no i dont... atleast not all of em.

Well that's fine but you also won't be gaining the same respect as those who took the time and effort. No one likes someone who cuts corners or jumps in front of the line. I've realized this over every competitive game I've played.

Originally posted by xanphia

Originally posted by tvalentine

Originally posted by xanphia 

You want to earn these things.

 

no .... no i dont... atleast not all of em.

 

Well that's fine but you also won't be gaining the same respect as those who took the time and effort.

that may be. But atleast i didnt waste hours of my life grinding away at something i dont enjoy. It's a video game, its supposed to be entertaining. If i'm not being entertained or enjoying the game, then why play it? Or continue to do the same unenjoyable task? It's like going to the movies but only your unable to watch it unless you work the projector, clean the theatre, and stock the candy shelves. Like i said i pay to go enjoy myself, not work.

EDIT: also before the zealots reply. I dont want everything handed to me either, games i enjoy and dont buy gold for usually have enjoyable or easy ways of getting gold or gear. In a way that i enjoy, not in a way people who enjoy the industrial side of the game.

Originally posted by tvalentine

Originally posted by xanphia

Originally posted by tvalentine

Originally posted by xanphia 

You want to earn these things.

 

no .... no i dont... atleast not all of em.

 

Well that's fine but you also won't be gaining the same respect as those who took the time and effort.

 

that may be. But atleast i didnt waste hours of my life grinding away at something i dont enjoy. It's a video game, its supposed to be entertaining. If i'm not being entertained or enjoying the game, then why play it? Or continue to do the same unenjoyable task? It's like going to the movies but only your unable to watch it unless you work the projector, clean the theatre, and stock the candy shelves. Like i said i pay to go enjoy myself, not work.

 

EDIT: also before the zealots reply. I dont want everything handed to me either, games i enjoy and dont buy gold for usually have enjoyable or easy ways of getting gold or gear. In a way that i enjoy, not in a way people who enjoy the industrial side of the game.

I know grinding for gold isn't the most fun, but the point is the reward at the end of the tunnel. You earn a certain sense of pride and accomplishment when you reach your goal. Also, I would gladly work the projector, clean the theater and stock the shelves if the end product is worth the effort. And many times, the need to grind gold equals a valuable end result.

Originally posted by xanphia

Originally posted by tvalentine

Originally posted by xanphia

Originally posted by tvalentine

Originally posted by xanphia 

You want to earn these things.

 

no .... no i dont... atleast not all of em.

 

Well that's fine but you also won't be gaining the same respect as those who took the time and effort.

 

that may be. But atleast i didnt waste hours of my life grinding away at something i dont enjoy. It's a video game, its supposed to be entertaining. If i'm not being entertained or enjoying the game, then why play it? Or continue to do the same unenjoyable task? It's like going to the movies but only your unable to watch it unless you work the projector, clean the theatre, and stock the candy shelves. Like i said i pay to go enjoy myself, not work.

 

EDIT: also before the zealots reply. I dont want everything handed to me either, games i enjoy and dont buy gold for usually have enjoyable or easy ways of getting gold or gear. In a way that i enjoy, not in a way people who enjoy the industrial side of the game.

 

I know grinding for gold isn't the most fun, but the point is the reward at the end of the tunnel. You earn a certain sense of pride and accomplishment when you reach your goal. Also, I would gladly work the projector, clean the theater and stock the shelves if the end product is worth the effort. And many times, the need to grind gold equals a valuable end result.

good for you. Unfortunetly/fortunetly not every mmorpg player out there enjoys doing the same mind numbing dailies and etc every day and not every movie goer wants to do the things listed.

Its called difference of opinion, this conversation/debate will never end.

Originally posted by tvalentine

Originally posted by xanphia

Originally posted by tvalentine

Originally posted by xanphia

Originally posted by tvalentine

Originally posted by xanphia 

You want to earn these things.

 

no .... no i dont... atleast not all of em.

 

Well that's fine but you also won't be gaining the same respect as those who took the time and effort.

 

that may be. But atleast i didnt waste hours of my life grinding away at something i dont enjoy. It's a video game, its supposed to be entertaining. If i'm not being entertained or enjoying the game, then why play it? Or continue to do the same unenjoyable task? It's like going to the movies but only your unable to watch it unless you work the projector, clean the theatre, and stock the candy shelves. Like i said i pay to go enjoy myself, not work.

 

EDIT: also before the zealots reply. I dont want everything handed to me either, games i enjoy and dont buy gold for usually have enjoyable or easy ways of getting gold or gear. In a way that i enjoy, not in a way people who enjoy the industrial side of the game.

 

I know grinding for gold isn't the most fun, but the point is the reward at the end of the tunnel. You earn a certain sense of pride and accomplishment when you reach your goal. Also, I would gladly work the projector, clean the theater and stock the shelves if the end product is worth the effort. And many times, the need to grind gold equals a valuable end result.

 

good for you. Unfortunetly/fortunetly not every mmorpg player out there enjoys doing the same mind numbing dailies and etc every day and not every movie goer wants to do the things listed.

Its called difference of opinion, this conversation/debate will never end.

Obviously it never will because I disagree with your reasoning and logic. You pay to play a game and most MMO's inherently come with some sort of grind, whether it be for gold, xp, or items. So why pay then? On top of that, pay more for things in game. It seems absurd to me.

Also, nice resort to the whole subjective vs. objective argument. I'm glad you just straw-manned this whole thread right there. I know you don't have an answer because your answer would be: I don't care what others think of me. So just say it. Sadly, for you, society is kept in check by embarssment and societal disapproval. So the next time someone calls you out for your short-cut don't be surprised so many people agree with your insulter.