Ok, first of all I want to say that like many others here I have been a critic of the current crap er crop of MMOs.

However I do see a hopeful sign. (at least to me)

One of the things that I think is wrong with MMOs is once a game gets a few years on it, it becomes very difficult for a new player to progress in the game.  The starter areas are barren and getting a group to help you is a chore.  Also if you ask questions the veterans (some of them)  in the game will laugh at you and call you nub or other insults.

I recently heard about the new expansion for WOW.  The more I thought about it the more I think it is fantastic idea.  By changing the areas and putting new quests in the game, everyone who starts out with a new alt will be a newbie. 

Eve has also announced a change in Sov for its game.  I say it is about time.  Unless you got in with the hardcore people you had very little chance to run with the big boys (except as a mining slave or cannon fodder).

So anyway some people may not like the changes to these games but I see it as a good thing.  I mean something had to happen to shake up the MMO world.  I congradulate both Blizzard and EVE for having the nerve to do something I think is good for MMOs.

Whereas I don't think this will cause me to resub to either game, I agree.  (I might get back into WoW to play a gobby, but doubtful given my level of disenchantment with that game.)  I think it is a very good way to get resubs and maybe even new ones.  Likewise it is a good way to repopulate the lowbie area's and give veterans a new experience in those area's.  It might even rekindle some of the charm that drew them to the game to begin with, as well as foster new relationships with grouping that may end up going all the way back up to end game and beyond.  Overall, I think it is a great idea and one i would love to see in my old favorite, EQ2 (where the lowbie lands are beyond desolate.)

This is part of the rationale behind recent games being solo-heavy for leveling up.  By being soloable to level cap, all of the early progression can be done regardless of whether 99% of the population is at max level or not.

Unless a game has a "rebirth" system (and few MMORPGs do, surprisingly), it'll end up siphoning off customers who join your game late if you make grouping necessary while leveling.

"Rebirth" system meaning you can take your max character back to level 1 to level up again, earning a permanent stat increase for doing so.

I'm lost here,the OP is saying because he "thinks" a game is making everyone look like a noob it is a good thing and they should be congratulated for this nonsense?

First of all ,you are only a noob in a game,because you do not understand the mechanics or how the game works.Furthermore you do not know the surroundings or areas,cities linked.Blizzzard is just retexturing,and still low grade textures i might add.Adding some new quests does not change anything related to noob,especially quests in WOW witch are as the cheap as they come,you don't need an IQ past 5 to do them,not that it is much different in any other game.

The way games make mistakes is by opening up new "distant" areas,as levels rise,Blizzard is doing NOTHING to address that problem and it is a problem in all games.Games move players further and further apart by opening up new areas further away from starting zones.

As for EVE ,well that is a totally different game,i'm not sure how much noobism you need to know how to put a check mark into a spreadsheet,but i guess learning how to open it up and where it is in the UI layout takes maybe 2 hours max.Eve thrives on players roaming the non safety zones,where rewards are better,not much involved there for noobism either.I don't see how EVE could ever cater to noobs,it is all about ISK and having TIME SPENT to make use of those check marks you put into skills.So unless EVE ramps up the speed of learning and gives every noob a hundred million isk,i don't see anything happening in that game.

You want to help noobs and keep the game fair for players that join a year or two later??remove time=reward and remove the distant leveling curve,keep players close to each other throughout the game,so it always feels busy to the noobs.Offer incentives in the game for high level players to go back and help the noobs,without that you really don't care about the game at all,it is just a me me scenario.

And of course it also depends on the community. If you have some "veterans" who are willing to help new players, by answering questions, guiding, helping them xp a bit, or even giving out a low-level gear or a good drop...

Besides, you can have new areas very far from the starting town, but if the town has some attraction... then there'll alwya be a small knot of higher-levels, and still there are players, more players will loiter around... it is a virtous circle.

Originally posted by kb4blu

I recently heard about the new expansion for WOW.  The more I thought about it the more I think it is fantastic idea.  By changing the areas and putting new quests in the game, everyone who starts out with a new alt will be a newbie. 

I don't think this really changes anything. Changing a quest from killing 10 rats into killing 10 bears, and changing the cosmetics of the area it's done in, with a different looking avatar (that plays exactly the same) isn't going to alter the fact that WoW is still going to be a race to level-cap where the 'real game' begins. The fundamental goals of WoW post-expansion will remain the same as they are now: grinding out progressively better tiers of gear for raiding and arenas.

Originally posted by Axehilt

This is part of the rationale behind recent games being solo-heavy for leveling up.  By being soloable to level cap, all of the early progression can be done regardless of whether 99% of the population is at max level or not.

Unless a game has a "rebirth" system (and few MMORPGs do, surprisingly), it'll end up siphoning off customers who join your game late if you make grouping necessary while leveling.

"Rebirth" system meaning you can take your max character back to level 1 to level up again, earning a permanent stat increase for doing so.

At which point people will just race to do it over and over and over again until their characters are so ridiculously overpowered that nobody can beat them.  Tell me you think for one second that won't happen?  It'll just unbalance the game.

Doesn't the very idea of helping the noob quickly catch up with the veteran completely defeat the purpose of a mmo?

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your point.

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Axehilt

This is part of the rationale behind recent games being solo-heavy for leveling up.  By being soloable to level cap, all of the early progression can be done regardless of whether 99% of the population is at max level or not.

Unless a game has a "rebirth" system (and few MMORPGs do, surprisingly), it'll end up siphoning off customers who join your game late if you make grouping necessary while leveling.

"Rebirth" system meaning you can take your max character back to level 1 to level up again, earning a permanent stat increase for doing so.

 

At which point people will just race to do it over and over and over again until their characters are so ridiculously overpowered that nobody can beat them.  Tell me you think for one second that won't happen?  It'll just unbalance the game.

Well nobody except the other people who have re-leveled multiple times.  

You know, the noobs to the game really aren't supposed to be able to compete with people who have already played the game for many years.  Well, at least that's always been my take on the very idea of a persistent environment.  This is why the returns are generally marginal at the later stages of the game.  For example, the first time you re-level, you get 25 stat points, the second time you get 15, third 10, fourth 5, etc etc.  

There is no hope yet, MMOs are still in a dark tunnel with no light showing up ahead.

Wow...great idea! Level upto 80 or whatever. Add a new area so you can start all over and grind level up the same crap all over again only with different scenery. Yes blizzard does have the right idea for the WoW Zombies...fool them into thinking they are gettin something new, thus keeping subs for another few months.

Originally posted by GaryM

Originally posted by kb4blu

I recently heard about the new expansion for WOW.  The more I thought about it the more I think it is fantastic idea.  By changing the areas and putting new quests in the game, everyone who starts out with a new alt will be a newbie. 

I don't think this really changes anything. Changing a quest from killing 10 rats into killing 10 bears, and changing the cosmetics of the area it's done in, with a different looking avatar (that plays exactly the same) isn't going to alter the fact that WoW is still going to be a race to level-cap where the 'real game' begins. The fundamental goals of WoW post-expansion will remain the same as they are now: grinding out progressively better tiers of gear for raiding and arenas.

I'm torn... I sort of agree that what bliz has done is a neat change of things... and instead of adding 50 new zones, or a pre-searing/post-searing Tyria... they're changing the whole landscape.

But on the other hand... I have to agree with GaryM, you can polish a turd or pant it a different color, change the shape or even add stuff to it... but in the end it's still a turd. Granted a very fun turd that everyone wants to play with... hell it was one of my more favorite mmo's, but just because you change the eyecandy doesn't make the goddamned solo grind any more FUN for those of us who've already made 30-50 toons and killed Hogger in Elwynn Forest or braved Barrens and that one prick rogue who's sole purpose in life is to harass the guards.

The best thing Blizzard could do is allow players to make toons start out at level 55, and build them up along with storylines similar to that of how the Death Knights did. Make each class different in their preperation of the new Cataclysm story arc, or combine them towards the end of it. For me, that was fun, not leveling up a lvl 1 death knight with the same "Kill X <insert mob name> and bring me X <Insert item>" quests till endgame. Fun for a while... but not when you have them all memorized after 5-6 years.

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Axehilt

This is part of the rationale behind recent games being solo-heavy for leveling up.  By being soloable to level cap, all of the early progression can be done regardless of whether 99% of the population is at max level or not.

Unless a game has a "rebirth" system (and few MMORPGs do, surprisingly), it'll end up siphoning off customers who join your game late if you make grouping necessary while leveling.

"Rebirth" system meaning you can take your max character back to level 1 to level up again, earning a permanent stat increase for doing so.

 At which point people will just race to do it over and over and over again until their characters are so ridiculously overpowered that nobody can beat them.  Tell me you think for one second that won't happen?  It'll just unbalance the game.

1. MMORPGs are a genre built on progression mechanics. 
2. Intelligent limits would obviously be placed on how the mechanic worked, making it no different than someone who invests 100 hours into raiding (well, the only difference being that lowbies get expert players to level alongside, making group content viable during the leveling process late into a game's lifecycle.)

Originally posted by Wizardry

The way games make mistakes is by opening up new "distant" areas,as levels rise,Blizzard is doing NOTHING to address that problem and it is a problem in all games.Games move players further and further apart by opening up new areas further away from starting zones.

Perhaps the expansion is doing (future tense) nothing to help that, but Blizzard has already done a lot.  Leveling 1-60 is dramatically faster than it was at release.

Originally posted by Lansid

Originally posted by GaryM

Originally posted by kb4blu

I recently heard about the new expansion for WOW.  The more I thought about it the more I think it is fantastic idea.  By changing the areas and putting new quests in the game, everyone who starts out with a new alt will be a newbie. 

I don't think this really changes anything. Changing a quest from killing 10 rats into killing 10 bears, and changing the cosmetics of the area it's done in, with a different looking avatar (that plays exactly the same) isn't going to alter the fact that WoW is still going to be a race to level-cap where the 'real game' begins. The fundamental goals of WoW post-expansion will remain the same as they are now: grinding out progressively better tiers of gear for raiding and arenas.

I'm torn... I sort of agree that what bliz has done is a neat change of things... and instead of adding 50 new zones, or a pre-searing/post-searing Tyria... they're changing the whole landscape.

But on the other hand... I have to agree with GaryM, you can polish a turd or pant it a different color, change the shape or even add stuff to it... but in the end it's still a turd. Granted a very fun turd that everyone wants to play with... hell it was one of my more favorite mmo's, but just because you change the eyecandy doesn't make the goddamned solo grind any more FUN for those of us who've already made 30-50 toons and killed Hogger in Elwynn Forest or braved Barrens and that one prick rogue who's sole purpose in life is to harass the guards.

The best thing Blizzard could do is allow players to make toons start out at level 55, and build them up along with storylines similar to that of how the Death Knights did. Make each class different in their preperation of the new Cataclysm story arc, or combine them towards the end of it. For me, that was fun, not leveling up a lvl 1 death knight with the same "Kill X <insert mob name> and bring me X <Insert item>" quests till endgame. Fun for a while... but not when you have them all memorized after 5-6 years.

If you have already spending that much time in WOW, may be it is time to change your hobby. No game is meant to be played for that long.