Originally posted by apple01

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by Torgrim

SV have been honest what the beta will be all about what we would expect from it, it's writen on the main page.

SV sead it will not be a fun ride if will be hell.

SV warned the community several times how the beta will be.

 

And still people whine about beta, the stupidity and ignorance really is shocking.

 

Given the past history of MMO games that enticed people to pay before release, I find your above HIGHLY ironic.

Very strange reasoning. Given pass failures of other MMO projects does not automatically lead to failure of MO and unhonesty of SV. Just like because most people are wise enough to make logical forum posts does not mean that you also are. 

 

 
 

One either learns from history, or one makes the same mistakes... Not "strange reasoning" in the least.  I said nothing about "automatically". I simply pointed to past history... I'm not responsible for what ever spin you attempt to place on that.

Think of it this way.  You are able to pre order the game and then with this pre order are allowed to play beta*.

Its like buying stock in a company and then being allowed to give your feedback to the company because you own stock in it.  Its very simple people.  Companies have been offerning stock for years and years.  Its a smart way to gain funding for upstart companies. 

There is a risk involved and the players that choose to pre order should be aware of that risk.   (I agree SV has done a great job talking to the community and explaining beta status)

I did not pre order MO, but I am watching and reading about it daily because it is a game that I might play depending on how it turns out, I am not willing to risk my money on the pre order based on the information that SV has provided me.  Its that simple.

The people that do accept the risk of pre ordering are given the ability to offer their feedback on the product they have pre ordered.  SIMPLE AS THAT.

People should really stay away from this game out of principle. But even if that isn't enough, they should stay away out of self interest. Any company that takes money for a preorder before even giving a concrete release date is clearly dodgy.

And judging from the beta rumours, they are a long way from release.

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Think of it this way.  You are able to pre order the game and then with this pre order are allowed to play beta*.

Its like buying stock in a company and then being allowed to give your feedback to the company because you own stock in it.  Its very simple people.  Companies have been offerning stock for years and years.  Its a smart way to gain funding for upstart companies. 

There is a risk involved and the players that choose to pre order should be aware of that risk.   (I agree SV has done a great job talking to the community and explaining beta status)

I did not pre order MO, but I am watching and reading about it daily because it is a game that I might play depending on how it turns out, I am not willing to risk my money on the pre order based on the information that SV has provided me.  Its that simple.

The people that do accept the risk of pre ordering are given the ability to offer their feedback on the product they have pre ordered.  SIMPLE AS THAT.

ok, lets try this ONE MORE TIME (even though you really aren't so off the mark as some others and might actually make the fact you paid to beta more palatable)

since when is a preorder the full price of the game - in my not so limited experience (though the last preorder i did was some time ago - i learn from my mistakes) you pays your $5 to save yourself a copy on release date unless you change your mind and you get your money back - well, sometimes but at least it was just $5

no, for MO you gave SV your money so they could actually have the funds to conduct their beta - hence you paid to work/play beta - and because you did they are throwing in the game and 30 days play time if/when the game is released as a gesture of thanks for investing in MO

Originally posted by kobietruman

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Think of it this way.  You are able to pre order the game and then with this pre order are allowed to play beta*.

Its like buying stock in a company and then being allowed to give your feedback to the company because you own stock in it.  Its very simple people.  Companies have been offerning stock for years and years.  Its a smart way to gain funding for upstart companies. 

There is a risk involved and the players that choose to pre order should be aware of that risk.   (I agree SV has done a great job talking to the community and explaining beta status)

I did not pre order MO, but I am watching and reading about it daily because it is a game that I might play depending on how it turns out, I am not willing to risk my money on the pre order based on the information that SV has provided me.  Its that simple.

The people that do accept the risk of pre ordering are given the ability to offer their feedback on the product they have pre ordered.  SIMPLE AS THAT.

 

ok, lets try this ONE MORE TIME (even though you really aren't so off the mark as some others and might actually make the fact you paid to beta more palatable)

since when is a preorder the full price of the game - in my not so limited experience (though the last preorder i did was some time ago - i learn from my mistakes) you pays your $5 to save yourself a copy on release date unless you change your mind and you get your money back - well, sometimes but at least it was just $5

no, for MO you gave SV your money so they could actually have the funds to conduct their beta - hence you paid to work/play beta - and because you did they are throwing in the game and 30 days play time if/when the game is released as a gesture of thanks for investing in MO

 

Ok Im tired of this, maybe the people that paid because they cared only for beta paid for beta but you wanna know the reasoning I paid for the pre-order, its because I wanted to see this game finished by donating by pre-ordering. Had nothing to do with the fact they were offering beta, I played beta for like 3 days and stopped because I have better things to do atm. I hardly play betas because I don't want to burn myself out of the game before the game is even released.

and i thank you for that

i too want to see this game released in a fairly core complete condition

it just doesn't seem like they should be making any attempt to release this year but from every post i've read on their forums stating that they are on schedule for december this is going to occur whether they shoulld or not

The only sad thing in the story is that the people who complain all the time and try to get a refund can't actually be completely locked out of the game, with no hope of ever coming back. You want a refund? Please, get it, but you will never play this game, even if it reveals a success. Too bad it's technically impossible.

well, that wouldn't really be very bottom line smart would it?

Originally posted by The_Korrigan

The only sad thing in the story is that the people who complain all the time and try to get a refund can't actually be completely locked out of the game, with no hope of ever coming back. You want a refund? Please, get it, but you will never play this game, even if it reveals a success. Too bad it's technically impossible.

I would like to see this happen but yea its impossible and buisness related it would be a stupid move because they are losing money.

WOW 50 euros to pre order...

What happened to the days of pre orders being cheaper not 20 euros more than a game usually costs..

I fell for this with Darkfall and then bloodbowl.

Never paying over the odds for any kind of early access again.

Ill wait until the game is released and then pick it up for 30 euros or less.

I think ya all suckers if you pay the price they are asking.

I am a professional software developer, working on chip design software that costs around $1 million a copy.

We define "alpha" as a program that has some of the basic core engines in place, but will probably crash if you try to do very much with it.  When a feature has hit "alpha" status, that means that somebody has done a probably trivial test and it seemed to work.

"beta" testing is when the program is working, and we have specific features that need to be tested. We sign up our customers, those with time to test and don't expect the software to work in production, and these customers test the features. The feature has to be implemented and pass at least some basic alpha testing first.

If they are still coding up features, then the program is in alpha test, not beta.

Paying for a program that has not been written is more like a Ponzi scheme, not a beta test.

Originally posted by olepi

I am a professional software developer, working on chip design software that costs around $1 million a copy.

We define "alpha" as a program that has some of the basic core engines in place, but will probably crash if you try to do very much with it.  When a feature has hit "alpha" status, that means that somebody has done a probably trivial test and it seemed to work.

"beta" testing is when the program is working, and we have specific features that need to be tested. We sign up our customers, those with time to test and don't expect the software to work in production, and these customers test the features. The feature has to be implemented and pass at least some basic alpha testing first.

If they are still coding up features, then the program is in alpha test, not beta.

Paying for a program that has not been written is more like a Ponzi scheme, not a beta test.

How do you know the program has not been written? Are you good at guessing?

Originally posted by olepi

I am a professional software developer, working on chip design software that costs around $1 million a copy.

We define "alpha" as a program that has some of the basic core engines in place, but will probably crash if you try to do very much with it.  When a feature has hit "alpha" status, that means that somebody has done a probably trivial test and it seemed to work.

"beta" testing is when the program is working, and we have specific features that need to be tested. We sign up our customers, those with time to test and don't expect the software to work in production, and these customers test the features. The feature has to be implemented and pass at least some basic alpha testing first.

If they are still coding up features, then the program is in alpha test, not beta.

Paying for a program that has not been written is more like a Ponzi scheme, not a beta test.

Just based on your writing style I call BS on your comments. You sound like you are maybe a sophmore in college (being generous here) but no software designer.

You even go as far as to contradict your own definition of a Beta.

Notice the part in red, that is exactly what SV is doing so by your own admission they are in beta testing.

Let me ask a simple question. Is Vista or OSX still in alpha since Microsoft and Apple are always coding up features? By your definition they are and the whole of the software world would laugh you out of the room.

 This whole post is based on bad information.  The pre-order people are just GUARANTEED to get to beta test and also get access before other groups of beta testers.  This is what they mean when they talk about Closed Beta for Block A.

You can sign up for the other phases here: www.mortalonline.com/beta/index.php

Originally posted by apple01

Originally posted by olepi

I am a professional software developer, working on chip design software that costs around $1 million a copy.

We define "alpha" as a program that has some of the basic core engines in place, but will probably crash if you try to do very much with it.  When a feature has hit "alpha" status, that means that somebody has done a probably trivial test and it seemed to work.

"beta" testing is when the program is working, and we have specific features that need to be tested. We sign up our customers, those with time to test and don't expect the software to work in production, and these customers test the features. The feature has to be implemented and pass at least some basic alpha testing first.

If they are still coding up features, then the program is in alpha test, not beta.

Paying for a program that has not been written is more like a Ponzi scheme, not a beta test.

How do you know the program has not been written? Are you good at guessing?

 

How do you know that it *has* been written to the point claimed?  It would hardly be the first time that a MMO was used in that fashion.  Given past MMO history, I'd be very careful.

Originally posted by phrank

Originally posted by olepi

I am a professional software developer, working on chip design software that costs around $1 million a copy.

We define "alpha" as a program that has some of the basic core engines in place, but will probably crash if you try to do very much with it.  When a feature has hit "alpha" status, that means that somebody has done a probably trivial test and it seemed to work.

"beta" testing is when the program is working, and we have specific features that need to be tested. We sign up our customers, those with time to test and don't expect the software to work in production, and these customers test the features. The feature has to be implemented and pass at least some basic alpha testing first.

If they are still coding up features, then the program is in alpha test, not beta.

Paying for a program that has not been written is more like a Ponzi scheme, not a beta test.

 

Just based on your writing style I call BS on your comments. You sound like you are maybe a sophmore in college (being generous here) but no software designer.

You even go as far as to contradict your own definition of a Beta.

Notice the part in red, that is exactly what SV is doing so by your own admission they are in beta testing.

Let me ask a simple question. Is Vista or OSX still in alpha since Microsoft and Apple are always coding up features? By your definition they are and the whole of the software world would laugh you out of the room.

I was a sophmore in college in 1976, so you are off a bit. I was programming in C on the UNIX kernel, including the ARPANET kernel code, in 1977. My sig should read: 2009, 32 years on the Net!

We define beta when a couple of things are true:

1) the feature in question has passed initial R/D alpha testing, and our field engineers have also done a "code bash" on it.

2) the featrure in question is considered to be done, and is ready for a customer to try in real life. In other words, the programmers think they are done, and expect to find few if any bugs.

So for each feature, there is a normal progression:

1) requirements document -- this says what the customers want

2) design specification -- the definition of the commands, sequence of data flow, messages, etc

3) initial programming -- each feature is then coded up

4) alpha test -- R/D has done their initial test, and now a different person runs the feature on some simple cases

5) beta test -- the code is done, and has passed initial testing. Now we let customers bang away on it, with the understanding that they will have to waste time filing bug reports instead of doing design work.

6) early access -- selected "good" customers get early access, and that usually includes expanded support, in exchange for possibly having to file bug reports.

7) RTM -- to us that is "Release To Manufacturing", meaning the code is frozen and sent to the manufacturer for CD's, etc.

So, by that industry accepted milestone, beta test means the code is done, and has already passed basic testing. We would never call any product "beta" unless all the coding was done, and has passed the first round of internal testing. Of course we also add new features to existing products, so there could be a range of features in different stages.

I have no direct information about MO, but when I hear that they are in "beta test" when they may actually only have some basic engines running, it sounds a little odd. If you are beta testing something, it is already supposed to be done, not a work in progress. MO sounds a lot more like some customers can pre-pay, and in exchange they get early access to the code as a work in progress. The Ponzi part comes in when you realize you are paying for something that does not exist, and depends on enough other people investing to create the product in the future. You pay and no guarantee you get anything, except the early access.

---- Beta Rant Follows :)

I will go further and say that beta test means just that: directed testing of features and overall stability. Do not play any beta tests and complain that something is not working, your job is to find that and report it. If the feature you want to test is borked at the moment, then test something else. For example, go around and talk to everybody, report typos, bad grammar, etc. Beta testing is not the same as a free trial.

I also love to do diabolical testing; so if it is asking for a number, try typing in "foo". If it wants a dollar value for something, try "-1".In microprocessor testing, I would start up a 3-byte DMA, and pull a non-maskable interrupt, and force a page fault. When beta testing, try out all the illegal things you can do, sometimes called "negative testing". So, try to eat that hammer, throw your bow and arrows, cast magic on the landscape, try illegal combinations of armor,  etc.

In beta testing, also pay attention to the error messages; my favorite error message (in a tool that costs over $500K each), was: "Something bad happen with file."  An internal Bell Labs error message was: "better get help!". So test out the boundary conditions: it says I can carry 100, lets take on 101 and see what message I get. What message do I get when trying to eat my hammer? Or jump into an illegal location?

Originally posted by olepi

Originally posted by phrank

Originally posted by olepi

I am a professional software developer, working on chip design software that costs around $1 million a copy.

We define "alpha" as a program that has some of the basic core engines in place, but will probably crash if you try to do very much with it.  When a feature has hit "alpha" status, that means that somebody has done a probably trivial test and it seemed to work.

"beta" testing is when the program is working, and we have specific features that need to be tested. We sign up our customers, those with time to test and don't expect the software to work in production, and these customers test the features. The feature has to be implemented and pass at least some basic alpha testing first.

If they are still coding up features, then the program is in alpha test, not beta.

Paying for a program that has not been written is more like a Ponzi scheme, not a beta test.

 

Just based on your writing style I call BS on your comments. You sound like you are maybe a sophmore in college (being generous here) but no software designer.

You even go as far as to contradict your own definition of a Beta.

Notice the part in red, that is exactly what SV is doing so by your own admission they are in beta testing.

Let me ask a simple question. Is Vista or OSX still in alpha since Microsoft and Apple are always coding up features? By your definition they are and the whole of the software world would laugh you out of the room.

 

I was a sophmore in college in 1976, so you are off a bit. I was programming in C on the UNIX kernel, including the ARPANET kernel code, in 1977. My sig should read: 2009, 32 years on the Net!

We define beta when a couple of things are true:

1) the feature in question has passed initial R/D alpha testing, and our field engineers have also done a "code bash" on it.

2) the featrure in question is considered to be done, and is ready for a customer to try in real life. In other words, the programmers think they are done, and expect to find few if any bugs.

So for each feature, there is a normal progression:

1) requirements document -- this says what the customers want

2) design specification -- the definition of the commands, sequence of data flow, messages, etc

3) initial programming -- each feature is then coded up

4) alpha test -- R/D has done their initial test, and now a different person runs the feature on some simple cases

5) beta test -- the code is done, and has passed initial testing. Now we let customers bang away on it, with the understanding that they will have to waste time filing bug reports instead of doing design work.

6) early access -- selected "good" customers get early access, and that usually includes expanded support, in exchange for possibly having to file bug reports.

7) RTM -- to us that is "Release To Manufacturing", meaning the code is frozen and sent to the manufacturer for CD's, etc.

So, by that industry accepted milestone, beta test means the code is done, and has already passed basic testing. We would never call any product "beta" unless all the coding was done, and has passed the first round of internal testing. Of course we also add new features to existing products, so there could be a range of features in different stages.

I have no direct information about MO, but when I hear that they are in "beta test" when they may actually only have some basic engines running, it sounds a little odd. If you are beta testing something, it is already supposed to be done, not a work in progress. MO sounds a lot more like some customers can pre-pay, and in exchange they get early access to the code as a work in progress. The Ponzi part comes in when you realize you are paying for something that does not exist, and depends on enough other people investing to create the product in the future. You pay and no guarantee you get anything, except the early access.

---- Beta Rant Follows :)

I will go further and say that beta test means just that: directed testing of features and overall stability. Do not play any beta tests and complain that something is not working, your job is to find that and report it. If the feature you want to test is borked at the moment, then test something else. For example, go around and talk to everybody, report typos, bad grammar, etc. Beta testing is not the same as a free trial.

I also love to do diabolical testing; so if it is asking for a number, try typing in "foo". If it wants a dollar value for something, try "-1".In microprocessor testing, I would start up a 3-byte DMA, and pull a non-maskable interrupt, and force a page fault. When beta testing, try out all the illegal things you can do, sometimes called "negative testing". So, try to eat that hammer, throw your bow and arrows, cast magic on the landscape, try illegal combinations of armor,  etc.

In beta testing, also pay attention to the error messages; my favorite error message (in a tool that costs over $500K each), was: "Something bad happen with file."  An internal Bell Labs error message was: "better get help!". So test out the boundary conditions: it says I can carry 100, lets take on 101 and see what message I get. What message do I get when trying to eat my hammer? Or jump into an illegal location?

 

Theres a big different between an MMO which thousands of players play on a single server than a chip design software that what one person uses at a time, even if it uses more I seriously doubt it has to withstand constant connections by thousands of ppl every second, and this is a general stand point for me. Fuck if I was buying something that cost the 1 million dollars your claiming yea id fucking demand perfection, point is. This game doesn't cost a million dollars per copy it costs 60 us dollars minimum and I think it was like 115 or something max. Even the one of a kind copy only sold for 5 grand or something so don't compare something worth 1 million dollars to a game that costs no where near that.

Not to mention like you said "I have no direct information about MO" so how exactly do you know the features aren't finished they just need implimenting? Im curious. New features are implimented all the time so wouldn't any MMO be considered still in alpha by your standards since all of them have new features still being coded because the MMO game has to keep growing and introducing new things to keep their customers?

Please think before comparing 2 different things on a whole different level.

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by apple01

Originally posted by olepi

I am a professional software developer, working on chip design software that costs around $1 million a copy.

We define "alpha" as a program that has some of the basic core engines in place, but will probably crash if you try to do very much with it.  When a feature has hit "alpha" status, that means that somebody has done a probably trivial test and it seemed to work.

"beta" testing is when the program is working, and we have specific features that need to be tested. We sign up our customers, those with time to test and don't expect the software to work in production, and these customers test the features. The feature has to be implemented and pass at least some basic alpha testing first.

If they are still coding up features, then the program is in alpha test, not beta.

Paying for a program that has not been written is more like a Ponzi scheme, not a beta test.

How do you know the program has not been written? Are you good at guessing?

 

 

How do you know that it *has* been written to the point claimed?  It would hardly be the first time that a MMO was used in that fashion.  Given past MMO history, I'd be very careful.

He never claimed to know, this whole thing is based off of speculation. Everything is based off of speculation I mean before AoC released it was being raved to be basically one of the best mmo's, look how that turned out granted from what I am reading about it now a days its getting better but the reason it was so hyped was because of bad ass movies and what not. So regardless of what we know a game can either be shit or good.

These aren't pointed at you Wraithone, its a general comment.

If you feel this game will be shit fine its your opinion, dont go spouting off unfounded facts claiming it is going to be shit, nor should people claim its going to be great, I may share my opinion with people but I always tell them unless they have money they can take a chance with wait till release and get it after you have someone you trust review it or atleast someone who gets paid to because fact is, people tend to be biased towards MMO's now, one hiccup and the game is deemed as shit.

I bought it because I believe in their vision and wanted to help that vision come to a reality.

Originally posted by olepi

I am a professional software developer, working on chip design software that costs around $1 million a copy.

We define "alpha" as a program that has some of the basic core engines in place, but will probably crash if you try to do very much with it.  When a feature has hit "alpha" status, that means that somebody has done a probably trivial test and it seemed to work.

"beta" testing is when the program is working, and we have specific features that need to be tested. We sign up our customers, those with time to test and don't expect the software to work in production, and these customers test the features. The feature has to be implemented and pass at least some basic alpha testing first.

If they are still coding up features, then the program is in alpha test, not beta.

Paying for a program that has not been written is more like a Ponzi scheme, not a beta test.

Chip design software and MMO design are in some ways opposite ends of software design. 

With the chip design software, the final product is useless to the end user unless it is bug free and feature complete. The end user can't test any of the subsystems in any meaningful way.  Once the chip design software is in its "RTM"  the code is in its final state and doesn't really change until there is a new version.

With MMOs, all of them have bugs at release and most have at least some features that don't make initial release.  MO had a closed combat beta initiallly, followed by the early stages of beta , when they mainly testing connectivity and the patcher.  Now they are adding subsystems  one at a time for further testing.  MMOs never really reach a final state and change regularly until they are ready to close.