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9/27/09 1:23:23 AM#76
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2
I'm betting that's just what the makers of Matrix Online said.
And Dungeons & Dragons Online. Both of which were, I might add, perfectly 'fun,' yet floundered anyway. I don't think the inducement of endorphin rushes are the end-all, be-all of game design. |
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Brenelael
 Elite Member
Joined: 10/19/06
Pointing out the Obvious to the Oblivious since 2006 |
9/27/09 1:48:44 AM#77
Originally posted by Saerain
And Dungeons & Dragons Online. Both of which were, I might add, perfectly 'fun,' yet floundered anyway. I don't think the inducement of endorphin rushes are the end-all, be-all of game design. Well, not really. Matrix online was fun for maybe 2 weeks to a month then the severe lack of content kicked in and it got old fast. DDO is really fun but the forced grouping aspect (Player Crews anyone?) killed that game for most folks. It was also a game that was a similar design to Guild Wars so it wasn't really a winning formula for a P2P game. This is the main reason it's seeing a come back now that it's gone F2P. It was really designed for that payment model anyways.
Neither of these games is a good comparison to STO as we don't know enough about it to really compare it to anything at this point. People need to just calm down and wait for more info to be released. We know next to nothing about exploration, PvP, crafting, social aspects, the economy and many more features that we know are going to be in the game at this point but the Devs are being very quiet about thus far. Judging STO at this point is like saying you dislike all pies because you hate blueberries. MMM... Blueberry pie!
Sorry, got distracted there for a bit.
Bren while(horse==dead) |
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Raltar
 Apprentice Member
Joined: 1/28/06
Asking for help on the internet is like asking a swarm of bees why they are stinging you! |
9/27/09 2:24:16 AM#78
Originally posted by ktanner3
Its sad that you have to resort to insults. Kind of proves MY point. Each man must for himself alone decide what is right and what is wrong, which course is patriotic and which isn't. You cannot shirk this and be a man. To decide against your conviction is to be an unqualified and inexcusable traitor, both to yourself and to your country, let men label you as they may. ~Mark Twain |
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9/27/09 2:30:43 AM#79
I like how it's an insult to be considered a woman. Good times. |
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Raltar
Apprentice Member
Joined: 1/28/06
Asking for help on the internet is like asking a swarm of bees why they are stinging you! |
9/27/09 2:51:04 AM#80
Originally posted by Saerain
It is if you AREN'T a woman and the person calling you one is well aware of it. Each man must for himself alone decide what is right and what is wrong, which course is patriotic and which isn't. You cannot shirk this and be a man. To decide against your conviction is to be an unqualified and inexcusable traitor, both to yourself and to your country, let men label you as they may. ~Mark Twain |
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9/27/09 5:53:51 AM#81
Whenever you try and make an existing IP into a game, there are certain expectations that come along with the world. I think it is fair to say that *most* Star Trek fans want more from this game than the "ship as avatar" model that Cryptic basically seems to be pursuing. Will a lot of ST fans try it anyways? Yep, just because of the name. Is it possible Cryptic will make a "fun" game ? Yep, very likely...with all the depth of a mudpuddle. CoH was "fun" but content-lite doesn't begin to describe it when it launched and frankly Cryptic has gone downhill since then. Champions has if anything, less content than CoH did and was rushed out faster. Not being able to see that a whole lot of fans do (and will) want more from it than customizable ship avatars zooming around blowing things up with special abilities and/or not being willing to see that Cryptic (for whatever unfathomable set of reasons) have become the producers of the McMMO does make you pretty blinkered if not an outright fanboi. |
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9/27/09 7:04:12 AM#82
Naw.....this game is going to be a big hit. Look, they have pointy eared elves with big boobs and phasers all stuffed into a Star Fleet uniform. The are more players in the gaming world that will buy elves with big boobs rather than Star Trek nerds. How can it fail?
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9/27/09 7:22:02 AM#83
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2 Again this is a cute way of saying "hey why isn't this game full of cute mini games like Free Realms" out of all the people I've heard complaining you can't be an engineer blah,blah,blah I've yet to see a single person explain how to implement these "mini games". Now for the maybe 200k or so real world trekkies (which are not represented by mmo players sorry) this could possibly be an issue but for the entire rest of the real world I don't see it. I could try to get all into this but it's pointless to say anything other than op instead of wasting your time with this waaay too long hypothetical conversation use that same energy to suggest to us a way for Cryptic to pull this off (without forcing us to play your way). Because I am not a trekkie and have no interest in being anything but the captain of my own ship and don't want to have my play time jerked around by my real time crew memebers or their ineptitude or afk's or whatever else they may have going on behind their keyboard. Again I'm not against anyone being able to play the way they choose I would not mind if Cryptic found a way to give you guys your little mini games but for me personally I am partial to the current design and want to play the way it is being made so again someone start a thread that suggests a good sensible way to pull off what the vocal few of you seem to have a need for. |
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9/27/09 7:26:22 AM#84
Originally posted by ericbelser
Sorry to have to hip you to this but there aren't even enough Star Trek fans in this country to keep a Star Trek show on the air so I question exactly what "a whole lot of fans" is to you. I was a sci fi nerd before anything else and most of the people I would consider Trekkies don't really play mmo's chances are some may try this game because they go after anything that's |
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9/27/09 8:05:07 AM#85
so when cryptic got this from the old company did they butcher it. i remember screenshots of the ready room and hallways. figures only company that could team with atari ruin this game. we all love to be captain but i was hoping to be medical or science officer at the academy and work my way up like the show. just like movies butcher game and comic movies game companies like to ruin tv and movie games. |
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Raltar
Apprentice Member
Joined: 1/28/06
Asking for help on the internet is like asking a swarm of bees why they are stinging you! |
9/27/09 11:27:51 AM#86
Originally posted by ericbelser
I think we all know who he is talking about ;) I agree completely. Each man must for himself alone decide what is right and what is wrong, which course is patriotic and which isn't. You cannot shirk this and be a man. To decide against your conviction is to be an unqualified and inexcusable traitor, both to yourself and to your country, let men label you as they may. ~Mark Twain |
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9/27/09 2:39:06 PM#87
Originally posted by Raltar
Its sad that you have to resort to insults. Kind of proves MY point.
LOL. You called us fanboys and then whined that you got called a woman? I also love how you convienently ignored what I wrote. In case you missed it....
Your post:"I'm off to play Fallen Earth, a real Sandbox game where you can actually play the way you want. Smell you fanboys later." Oh yeah, that wasn't insulting in the least. To which I relpied... "Doesn't look like you're having much fun yet... "In summary, this game seems like it has potental and I really hope it turns out to be worth the effort in the long run. But right now it just isn't a lot of fun. Honestly I think there is a reason the developers aren't offering a free trial right now and I regret putting money down on this game so soon. I would advise anyone else looking at this game to wait atleast a couple of weeks for things to simmer down a bit. When the players begin to spread out away from the starter towns, the developers work out a few more bugs and we get more information about what this game looks like at the higher levels, it could be worth the prucahse."(this was his review on the Fallen Earth Forums)" Care to explain the contradiction or would you like to once again ignore it? Your point was that you can tell a game is going to be good or bad before it is released. You obviously aren't having fun with Fallen Earth, a game that,according to you, is more of what you want.
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Brenelael
Elite Member
Joined: 10/19/06
Pointing out the Obvious to the Oblivious since 2006 |
9/27/09 5:24:31 PM#88
Originally posted by Raltar
I think we all know who he is talking about ;) I agree completely. Yeah, you can't argue the points we're making so you guys resort to attacking us directly... Real classy there guys... LOL
You guys don't even have a clue what a fanboy is. Saying that we'd rather wait until we can try the game ourselves to make up our minds about whether the game is fun or not rather than listen to some anonymous guy's opinion on the internet makes us fanboys? Never once in this thread have either myself or Ktanner claimed anything about what STO is going to be like. We've just stated that we'd rather actually play the game to make up our minds about it as it's the ONLY way to know if it will be fun or not. If we are fanboys we are pretty piss poor at it.
You guys on the other hand have already made up your minds based on conjecture, speculation and a little bit of magically made up fairy tales. You have no clue what the game play is going to be like in the final release of the game as none of us do but yet you spew negative garbage about STO every chance you get and when you can't argue the points we're making you resort to personal attacks and demeaning labels. They do have a term for what you're doing but I won't stoop to your level by labeling you guys with it.
Bren while(horse==dead) |
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9/27/09 6:45:08 PM#89
Ugh, if STO fails I might just have to give up the internet. Ah well, these days it's filled with people I don't want to be around anyway, as most of these forums continually point out. :( Whatever happened to the optimistic, wonderful, always excitiing internet of a decade ago? Oh yeah... capitalism. |
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9/27/09 8:40:50 PM#90
Originally posted by Brenelael
Way to try and drag me into your flame-fest. Ral is being more than a bit trollish, but you two seem to be being deliberately dense and argumentative in response. I'm not saying STO is going to fail or even suck, but it is clearly not going to be any kind of innovative open-ended "sandbox" game. Cryptic is taking the quick and cheap road to MMO production, probably because they have realized that some flashy graphics and quick action demos are all it takes to get and hold customers long enough for that box sale and first 3 month sub (bonus if you rope them in for a "lifetime" sub); at which point they have made their money and who cares what happens with it after that. We could all make up numbers for months, but whatever you choose to believe *some* portion of the possible players of a game like this would rather it centered on people and was more old style pen&paper RPG'ish; *some* other portion would prefer a starship oriented action game...it's obvious from what Cryptic has said which one they are making...and it's not the sandbox. |
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9/27/09 9:35:01 PM#91
Originally posted by ericbelser
Way to try and drag me into your flame-fest. Ral is being more than a bit trollish, but you two seem to be being deliberately dense and argumentative in response.
I fail to see how I'm being dense. Ral argued for multiple pages about how he can tell a game is bad before it comes out. He then says that Fallen Earth is his type of game(along with some smart ass mockery) and then proceeds to write a review on the Fallen Earth website which says he's having no fun with it. So clearly he CAN'T tell whether or not a game is good just by hearing about its features which proves the point Bren and I was making in the first place.. I'm mearly pointing out the flaws in his logic and I fail to see how that is a bad thing. Edit: I noticed that Fallen Earth has been down and people are complaining of lag, bugs,inventory items being erased and billing problems. In short, we have SWG revisted. The naysayers who have been wishing for the second coming of SWG should be flocking to Fallen Earth right now. ;) |
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9/28/09 6:33:59 AM#92
Originally posted by ktanner3
Because you are failing to see that him having been wrong about FE doesn't translate to a universal axiom that you can use as a proof for the: "no one can judge a game based on its announced features". Making him look foolish or trollish doesn't refute the argument that any potential player can look at what Cryptic has clearly stated about STO and decide that even if they get it all perfect, it will not be the game for them. Cryptic is making a game for a specific audience, nothing wrong with that - but it's not going to appeal to those looking for a more "in depth" out of starship, character-based experience - because Cryptic has no intention of giving players the tools for anything like that. |
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Brenelael
Elite Member
Joined: 10/19/06
Pointing out the Obvious to the Oblivious since 2006 |
9/28/09 6:37:26 AM#93
Originally posted by ericbelser
Way to try and drag me into your flame-fest. "does make you pretty blinkered if not an outright fanboi." - ericbelser
Who's flame fest? I've flamed no one but have been attacked by both of you with comments like the one above. No, I just refuse to judge a game until I play it... Simple as that. All I'm saying is if the game is fun I'll play it and if it isn't I won't but I'm going to play it first as it's the ONLY way to judge if it's fun or not.
I'm not saying STO is going to be a WoW killer or anything that grand either. I just don't think it's going to be as bad as some of you are trying very hard to make it out to be. In the end however playing the actual game is the only way we will know for sure but if you go into it with a negative attitude you're only going to find fault everywhere. An open mind is the only way to judge something fairly. If you play any game with the pre-conceived notion that it's going to suck guess what? It's going to suck even if it's the best game you've ever played because all you're going to see is the flaws if you're blinded by negativity.
Edit: Also I've never said nor do I believe that STO will be for every MMO or Star Trek fan. There is no magic formula to make a perfect Star Trek game. This is why the franchise has always done poorly in the video game market. No matter what design choices they make they are going to piss off a certain percentage of both fan bases... that is a certainty and I'm sure Cryptic knew this before they even started the project. There is no magical "right" way to make a Star Trek game... Period.
Bren
while(horse==dead) |
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9/28/09 10:52:34 AM#94
Originally posted by ericbelser
Because you are failing to see that him having been wrong about FE doesn't translate to a universal axiom that you can use as a proof for the: "no one can judge a game based on its announced features". Making him look foolish or trollish doesn't refute the argument that any potential player can look at what Cryptic has clearly stated about STO and decide that even if they get it all perfect, it will not be the game for them. Cryptic is making a game for a specific audience, nothing wrong with that - but it's not going to appeal to those looking for a more "in depth" out of starship, character-based experience - because Cryptic has no intention of giving players the tools for anything like that. Look, if you aren't interested in the game then fine. But when you do what Ral has done in thread after thread then people start to get a little annoyed and you get threads like this. Of COURSE not every game is for everybody. Some people like theme park games some people like sandbox games etc. But to say the game is going to be a failure just because it isn't what YOU want IS a wrong thing to say and it deserves to be challenged. And yes, his recent experience with Fallen Earth is a prefect example in the faulty of his logic. And yes, I am taking it a little too far because he decided to be a troll about it. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.So once again, play the game or don't play the game, I don't care. But when you start trolling the forum and calling those of us who are looking forward to this game fanboys then don't cry when you get a few insults thrown back at you. |
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9/28/09 10:54:08 AM#95
Originally posted by Brenelael Try looking at the parts in green again and thinking about this for a moment, because that is the heart of what you seem to be insisting on arguing over. On the one hand, in the second green bit, you clearly admit that this STO will not satisfy all the fans; that in fact no game could - which I completely agree with and which I do NOT need to "play the game to find out". I can make that call just from what Cryptic has said publicly about the game. Yet, in the earlier part of the very same post, you insist that playing the game is the only way to judge it....soo umm which is it?
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Raltar
Apprentice Member
Joined: 1/28/06
Asking for help on the internet is like asking a swarm of bees why they are stinging you! |
9/28/09 12:31:09 PM#96
Originally posted by ktanner3
Either you ARE dense or something is wrong with the internet. Call Bob Dole. If you actually read my review (which was here on THIS WEBSITE, not the Fallen Earth site where I don't even have an account) you would see I actually enjoy the game a LOT, but I'm suggesting that people who haven't bought it yet wait a few more weeks until the developers smooth out some issues with the server lagging and for the huge crowds of players in the newbie starter towns to spread out a bit. In a month from now I think FE is a game anyone with two brain cells to rub togeather will enjoy. In a year from now it might be the best Sandbox game on the market if they continue to build on what they have now. You and Bren are real good at hurling insults... but your reading comprehension skills leave a lot to be desired. You guys still haven't got a clue what I was trying to tell you for all those pages we argued. Each man must for himself alone decide what is right and what is wrong, which course is patriotic and which isn't. You cannot shirk this and be a man. To decide against your conviction is to be an unqualified and inexcusable traitor, both to yourself and to your country, let men label you as they may. ~Mark Twain |
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Brenelael
Elite Member
Joined: 10/19/06
Pointing out the Obvious to the Oblivious since 2006 |
9/28/09 12:37:16 PM#97
Originally posted by ericbelser Try looking at the parts in green again and thinking about this for a moment, because that is the heart of what you seem to be insisting on arguing over. On the one hand, in the second green bit, you clearly admit that this STO will not satisfy all the fans; that in fact no game could - which I completely agree with and which I do NOT need to "play the game to find out". I can make that call just from what Cryptic has said publicly about the game. Yet, in the earlier part of the very same post, you insist that playing the game is the only way to judge it....soo umm which is it?
Simple... Both. You try a game and if it's not for you don't continue to play. There are plenty of ways from Open Betas to free trials to try out a game before you have to pay anything. Besides in every post I'm not referring to any features at all but the overall 'fun factor' of the game. No feature list for any game lists 'fun' as a feature. That is something that only playing a game will tell you. Now I'm not saying that STO will be fun for everyone either... no game is. Heck I don't even know if it will be fun for me yet but I'm willing to wait and see by playing the game before I make any grandiose claims about it being a success or failure.
Now you also seem to think that I think everything with STO is just 100% peachy keen as well. Also not true. I was very upset when Cryptic announced that there would be no personal ship interiors and I voiced that concern both here and on the STO forum. I still don't like their decision very much but I spoke my peace on the issue and moved on. I still have hope that they will add it down the road sometime but I certainly won't hold my breath waiting for it as I know all to well how developers seem to have a short memory when it comes to assurances given to the player base.
Even though I was upset over this issue I also know that other games in the past have cut features that I was looking forward to and the game still turned out to be fun anyways. I can forgive a developer for cutting a feature that I was looking forward to if the game they deliver in the end is still enjoyable. I'm not saying STO will be a huge success or a huge failure... All I'm really saying is it's far to early to tell either way at this point. We know next to nothing about over 50% of the features the devs have confirmed are in the game at this point. Judging STO at this point is like reviewing a movie after only seeing the preview trailer.
Bren while(horse==dead) |
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Brenelael
Elite Member
Joined: 10/19/06
Pointing out the Obvious to the Oblivious since 2006 |
9/28/09 12:49:20 PM#98
Originally posted by Raltar And when have I insulted you? All I've said so far is that the ideology of judging a game before you try it is rather ignorant and I hinted that your (among others) posting style was rather trollish in nature (In retaliation to being labeled a fanboy I might add.). You on the other hand hurl insults and hand out labels in almost every post you make (even in the one quoted above). Maybe you should look in a mirror before you start pointing fingers at others.
Bren while(horse==dead) |
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9/28/09 1:49:45 PM#99
Originally posted by Raltar
Either you ARE dense or something is wrong with the internet. Call Bob Dole. If you actually read my review (which was here on THIS WEBSITE, not the Fallen Earth site where I don't even have an account) you would see I actually enjoy the game a LOT, but I'm suggesting that people who haven't bought it yet wait a few more weeks until the developers smooth out some issues with the server lagging and for the huge crowds of players in the newbie starter towns to spread out a bit. In a month from now I think FE is a game anyone with two brain cells to rub togeather will enjoy. In a year from now it might be the best Sandbox game on the market if they continue to build on what they have now. You and Bren are real good at hurling insults... but your reading comprehension skills leave a lot to be desired. You guys still haven't got a clue what I was trying to tell you for all those pages we argued.
I think it is pretty obvious that I was talking about the fallen earth forums on this website but if you want to pitch a fit over that then fine. I did read your review and that is where I got your quotes from. You specifically said the game wasn't fun and as far as I'm concerned that's all that matters. If you're willing to play a game that isn't fun then that's your perogitive. We know perfectly well what you were saying and we called you on it. If you're going to start backtracking then go ahead, but you only weaken your argument. And please, spare me the crockadile tears and the victim routine. YOU were the one that started hurling the insults here not us.If you can't take it then don't dish it out.I am perfectly fine with discussing this topic with you in a civilised manner but I won't do it when you belittle people by calling them fanboys( along with all your other condenscending remarks ) just because they disagree with you. |
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9/29/09 1:16:16 AM#100
Originally posted by ericbelser
Because you are failing to see that him having been wrong about FE doesn't translate to a universal axiom that you can use as a proof for the: "no one can judge a game based on its announced features". Making him look foolish or trollish doesn't refute the argument that any potential player can look at what Cryptic has clearly stated about STO and decide that even if they get it all perfect, it will not be the game for them. Cryptic is making a game for a specific audience, nothing wrong with that - but it's not going to appeal to those looking for a more "in depth" out of starship, character-based experience - because Cryptic has no intention of giving players the tools for anything like that.
It's been awhile since I checked in here, good to see some things never change. Keep it up Ktanner lol |
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