I do not believe it is possible to satisfy both soloers and groupers. They are as far apart as those who want perma death and no death penalty. Every decision in this area favours one or the other never both.

You have to found your MMO on a principle of where the balance lies, either towards grouping or towards solo. Then base your decisions on that.
 

Originally posted by Scot

I do not believe it is possible to satisfy both soloers and groupers. They are as far apart as those who want perma death and no death penalty. Every decision in this area favours one or the other never both.

I think it's very doable. UO, Puzzle Pirates, EVE Online and many other MMOs have people that group for content and people that do things solo. A big thing that those games have in common is that players can follow different VIABLE paths.

There are no possible goals you can set in games like WOW other than complete more quests to get better gear to do higher quests to get better gear to do higher quests...  you get the picture. Basically, if a big visible glowy ePeen goes in game and one person can have it, then everyone else wants it as there is no other avenue to excel in the game.

In UO, a tailor doesn't care if the warrior next to him is clad head to foot in full Skittle regalia because the tailor has his own path to excel in and has his own rewards he can get for his tasks. So then there's the warrior and the warrior next to each other. Well, the Age of Shadows expansion added in the equivalent of epic armor... IWIN buttons that players suddenly needed in order to compete and, of course, to not be the guy with the tiny digital peen.Well, once you add in horseshit like that, then you actually create the senseless divide that you see in threads like this. EA quickly learned from the mistake and make alternative items available through a range of means.

You can have solo and group players in the same game in harmony. It's just a lot easier to do it when your game isn't a linear gear-centric grindfest where the only possible career is "Guy Who Kills Stuff To Get Better Gear"

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

 

Then you can solo.

I'd still be losing 3/4th of exp I could be getting. It's not a solution.

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

 

Then you can solo.

I'd still be losing 3/4th of exp I could be getting. It's not a solution.

Do you HAVE to be leveling as fast as possible? Is it really THAT needed? You sound like one of the people that makes the OP "flavor of the month" characters, and runs around in AoE groups doing nothing but leveling all day just so you can reach max level and bitch about lack of content. Have fun with that. Enjoy your min/maxing.

Originally posted by Rallycart

 Do you HAVE to be leveling as fast as possible? Is it really THAT needed? You sound like one of the people that makes the OP "flavor of the month" characters, and runs around in AoE groups doing nothing but leveling all day just so you can reach max level and bitch about lack of content. Have fun with that. Enjoy your min/maxing.

No, I don't, but to lose exp for the stupidest reasons possible is what I don't like. Like Susy fake d/c'ing because she just gained a level and I have to look for a replacement again.. 

I actually like leveling slowly, but not when the reasons for that are like the ones in my example. 

I like grouping AND soloing. The great thing about good MMOs is that you get your choice as to what you want to do and aren't forced one way or the other.

Originally posted by decoy26517

I like grouping AND soloing. The great thing about good MMOs is that you get your choice as to what you want to do and aren't forced one way or the other.

Those are the only kind of MMO's, whatcha talking about? No one is telling to do things differently. Only the focus changes from solo to grouping, but neither feature is eliminated completely.

---

Originally posted by Hyanmen

---

Originally posted by decoy26517

I like grouping AND soloing. The great thing about good MMOs is that you get your choice as to what you want to do and aren't forced one way or the other.

---

Those are the only kind of MMO's, whatcha talking about? No one is telling to do things differently. Only the focus changes from solo to grouping, but neither feature is eliminated completely.

---

I remember the days when EQ2 came out and soloing was almost impossible in later levels. It was for the "hardcore" players and while leveling you almost always had to have a group.

Originally posted by decoy26517

 

---

Originally posted by Hyanmen

---

Originally posted by decoy26517

 

I like grouping AND soloing. The great thing about good MMOs is that you get your choice as to what you want to do and aren't forced one way or the other.

---

Those are the only kind of MMO's, whatcha talking about? No one is telling to do things differently. Only the focus changes from solo to grouping, but neither feature is eliminated completely.

---

 

I remember the days when EQ2 came out and soloing was almost impossible in later levels. It was for the "hardcore" players and while leveling you almost always had to have a group.

I also remember the days when it was like that in FFXI. But that is past, the present is different.

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by Rallycart

 Do you HAVE to be leveling as fast as possible? Is it really THAT needed? You sound like one of the people that makes the OP "flavor of the month" characters, and runs around in AoE groups doing nothing but leveling all day just so you can reach max level and bitch about lack of content. Have fun with that. Enjoy your min/maxing.

No, I don't, but to lose exp for the stupidest reasons possible is what I don't like. Like Susy fake d/c'ing because she just gained a level and I have to look for a replacement again.. 

I actually like leveling slowly, but not when the reasons for that are like the ones in my example. 

I don't see it as the solo guy LOSING exp, but the group guy GAINING exp. You are too much of a "half glass empty" person it seems. You are acting like things scale down based from a full group, but that is not how any game that I have ever played works. You always get a bonus to exp gained for the extra people in the group, never a penalty for not having that many people.

Originally posted by Rallycart

 

I don't see it as the solo guy LOSING exp, but the group guy GAINING exp. You are too much of a "half glass empty" person it seems. You are acting like things scale down based from a full group, but that is not how any game that I have ever played works. You always get a bonus to exp gained for the extra people in the group, never a penalty for not having that many people.

I don't care about the solo guy. I don't think "oh well, at least I still get more exp than the soloer", I think "damn, I could be getting more exp than this if that idiot didn't fake d/c". 

Stop trying to guess what kind of person I am as well, please. You're frankly not very good at it.

You can always just replace people if they DC on ya :P

Originally posted by decoy26517

You can always just replace people if they DC on ya :P

"Oh damn our healer d/c'd right after dinging into 47, that sucks! Oh well, I'll look for a new healer."

....

"Damn guys, there's no healer lfp! We need to wait a bit."

....

"Okay healer is coming, let's continue" >>> "Lolz srry mate I g2g mom says its bedtime lol sry bye"

....

"Damn, that was pain in the ass. Maybe I just should solo."

I'd have no problem with waiting 4x as long to get gear.  I don't much care about having uber gear.  But waiting 4x as long to level up so I can see new zones, mobs, quests, and other content is too long to wait.  I'd have to group.  But if the game had a good community and a RP server I wouldn't mind grouping.

Hyanmen,

of all the MMOs I've played that has rarely happened to me. Usually I can see how a group is going to turn out right from the beginning and make a judgment call then if I want to stay or not.

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by decoy26517

You can always just replace people if they DC on ya :P

"Oh damn our healer d/c'd right after dinging into 47, that sucks! Oh well, I'll look for a new healer."

....

"Damn guys, there's no healer lfp! We need to wait a bit."

....

"Okay healer is coming, let's continue" >>> "Lolz srry mate I g2g mom says its bedtime lol sry bye"

....

"Damn, that was pain in the ass. Maybe I just should solo."

Doesn't think kind of prove the point? With increased exp speed for grouped people, it will get more people to group, without making it mandatory. It will also take that "to hell with this, I will just solo, because it works out better in the end" mentality away. No healers? That is because healers in games now can solo fairly well, and it works for them. They would come heal for you if it meant faster levels, plain and simple.

Originally posted by Rallycart

 

They would come heal for you if it meant faster levels, plain and simple.

Would they? Like Ihmotepp said, "groupers and soloers would progress at about the same rate in the end". Why would the healer come heal you if that's the case?

And it still works better in the end, because even though groupers get 4x exp they're still progressing at the same rate... soloers don't have to deal with the BS I just described, so it's not really a solution.

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by Rallycart

 

They would come heal for you if it meant faster levels, plain and simple.

Would they? Like Ihmotepp said, "groupers and soloers would progress at about the same rate in the end". Why would the healer come heal you if that's the case?

And it still works better in the end, because even though groupers get 4x exp they're still progressing at the same rate... soloers don't have to deal with the BS I just described, so it's not really a solution.

No MMO on the market offers four times the amount of exp for groupers versus soloers. And yet, many people still find is beneficial to group for exp over solo. If you have ever played a straight up grinding game (such as Ragnarok Online) you will know that grouping to destroy large groups of mobs is tons faster than trying to solo. And yet, people still solo. However, plenty of people that WOULD be soloing actually group up, because the rewards are worth the extra pain in the ass that groups bring.

The problem is thst most MMOs give an exp bonus of about 50% for a full group, which is nothing. If it was an extra 300%, people would be all over it, including myself. Add in an open group system like Warhammer has, and you have a solo friendly game that still encourages you to group.

Edit: Also, from the post that -I- read by Ihmotepp, he did not say that they would break even. His posts agrees with me. It would draw people in, because even with people going afk, you would be making more exp, so who cares.

Usually being in a group allows you to kill faster so having a group is itself an advantage in leveling. There are games that will flatly penalize you for grouping by either not distributing the xp in a reasonable manner or reducing the xp to an unacceptable level when grouped. That should be avoided. The real problem is games now tend to stratify players by level so that grouping with someone to far above or below your level will penalize you. This should be avoided at all costs because of it's effect on community. Players willing to help players below their level should be rewarded not punished. Let the players decide who they wish to group with. If the majority of players are trying to grind to the top as quickly as possible instead of progressing naturally it indicated the game is flawed. Some players will always try to level as quickly as possible but they'll be gone in a month no matter what you do so catering to them is pointless. If you make a good game that is fun to play at all levels and as a community a lot of the problems and complaints with leveling will disappear.

Yes I generally solo these days  for personal reasons.

Nice post Ihmotepp and insiteful to say the least.  I voted it would be fine but let me elaborate a bit.  I am one of those dreaded solo players that people who advocate grouping in mmo's seem to be so against, that's basically saying when I play an mmo I won't be playing one geared to group play and as such will spend most of my time solo, but I am also not one of those solo players who cries out for access to the same loot or quests that groups get.  The reason I state this is because this entire argument just get's to me hearing anyone try to tell someone else how they should do something just burns me up and that's on both sides of the argument.  MMO's allow the grouping aspect of gaming and as such there should definitely be rewards attainable by only those who go through what it takes to go through group content which is patience, cooperation and often times more strategy than is required to tackle the same games solo content so solo players stop all of your whining about how it's unfair that you don't have access to this content you do if you just group.  Again for those of you who like to group in mmo's please stop with all the "what's the point of playing an mmo if you don't group".  The point is simply if I paid the same amount you did I shold be able to play how I want not how you think I should be playing.  People like to add far too much MMORPG massively multi player online role playing game is what those initials stand for far too often people like to add there own meaning to that someone show me where that implies either solo or group play.  It states nothing other than you are playing a video game in a very large game world with access to content also accesible to other players of this same game from whatever regional restrictions set by the devs.  It does not imply solo nor group content so it is feasible that both exist.

  Now take a game like Darkfall it seems much more group friendly than solo friendly with its focus on open world pvp, I don't dislike this game because it's not very accesible to a player like myself I just move on to something that is geared more towards my play style why join a game that you know may not cater to your style of play and then compain that it doesn't cater to your style of play?  Move on to one of the myriad choices out there for you.

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Solo players shouldn't be playing that kind of game anyway, since it caters to group playstyle. 

 

Agreed. If the game takes 4x longer to obtain something solo than in a group the game is obviously designed specifically for group play. Since grouping is mandatory in such a game, it better have packed servers otherwise it will just be an LFG-fest.

 

I find this very interesting.

How does the group making progress 4x faster affect your solo play? It doesn't, does it?

 

You bit that line quickly!

 

Imhotepp, I was repeating your sentiment from the last time you brought this topic up. You were the one that said that if one path was significantly easier than the other, one would have to be an idiot to take the longer path.

That being the case, one would have to be an idiot to play solo in such a game, correct?

 

The problem with your basic assumption here is that soloing and grouping are fundamentally different.

I can log on to the game and immediately being to solo.

That is not true for grouping.

If I could always log onto the game and immediately be playing in a good group, then your statement would make sense, becuase grouping and solo would work the same.

The extra xp is to make up for the fact that grouping and solo do not work the same. Again, the solo player logs on, and instantly begins to make xp, whether grinding, or questing. This is not true for the group player, unless you know of a game where you log on already in a group.

So yes, the solo player would be an idiot to take the longer path, IF HE COULD ALWAYS FIND A GOOD GROUP. But that is not the case.

But when we turn it around the other way, the group player CAN ALWAYS SOLO.

And isn't that the common complaint of the solo player? It's usually not, I hate to play in groups and I never group. It's, I'm paying for this game, and I don't want to stand around going LFG all night, I want to be able to accomplish something. Right?

But again, the opposite doesn't apply. You don't have to do anything to solo, you just start soloing.

Originally posted by Rallycart

No MMO on the market offers four times the amount of exp for groupers versus soloers. And yet, many people still find is beneficial to group for exp over solo. If you have ever played a straight up grinding game (such as Ragnarok Online) you will know that grouping to destroy large groups of mobs is tons faster than trying to solo. And yet, people still solo. However, plenty of people that WOULD be soloing actually group up, because the rewards are worth the extra pain in the ass that groups bring.

The problem is thst most MMOs give an exp bonus of about 50% for a full group, which is nothing. If it was an extra 300%, people would be all over it, including myself. Add in an open group system like Warhammer has, and you have a solo friendly game that still encourages you to group.

 

Edit: Also, from the post that -I- read by Ihmotepp, he did not say that they would break even. His posts agrees with me. It would draw people in, because even with people going afk, you would be making more exp, so who cares.

But like I said before on the first page, soloing would be a horrible timesink if groupers got that much ahead in exp curve. Devs can't let groupers level too fast, and if the leveling process is slow for groupers that get +300% exp, think about the soloers. Would you want to be a solo player in that kind of game, or would you rather look for a game where soloing isn't such an insane timesink? That's not solo friendly in the slightest. It is group friendly though, which is good for a grouper like me, but bad for the soloer.

Ihmotepp said it somewhere on page 2 or 3, as a response to what I said above iirc. 

Originally posted by Plasuma!!!

Here's my spin on it.

Grouping:

LOOT:: All loot is divided and shared among the group members. Everyone gets something when there is something to be had.

• Singular items are split up into pieces and divided amongst the group members. The more members there are, the smaller the pieces are. Finding multiples of the same item grants more pieces to each individual.
  
• Piece sizes only matter until you get 100% of the item - so you can get an initial 25% of an item, then later solo and find a complete item just like it. The items will automatically be combined. So 25% + 100% will always equal 1 complete item - unless the items stack, in which case you'll have 1 complete item and 25% of another item in the stack.
  
• Rare boss-dropped and quest-type items are always 50% complete when dropped for a group.
  
• This is to eliminate the trouble of loot disputes and to allow a casual method to loot collection.
  

DOWNTIME:: Very little, as each additional member of the group grants a bonus to out-of-combat recovery / regeneration / cooldown rates to every group member.

• Class types probably don't need to matter for this bonus. You can make it matter if you want to implement that strategy, but the idea here is to drop part of the reason for the "group optimization" puzzle that singles out some classes and abandons others.
  

EXPERIENCE:: Experience is multiplied by an additional 0.5% for each group member (have to be in the same area as the group leader).

• You want more people in your group so you can get more experience.
  

DUNGEONS:: Dungeons are not player-instanced, they are separate zones. Although boss fights are player-instanced.

• Bosses scale to the size and difficulty factor of the group. So do the rewards.
  

MISC NOTES:: The grouping system is made looser. When you enter an area or zone, you have access to a list of all current groups in that area. You can join any group you wish with or without the consent of the leader. You cannot join or attempt to join a full group. The leader does have the option to boot / group ban you once you join, so cooperate or be kicked. You can freely join other groups at any time. You can also make your own group, which will be automatically posted in the local group-finder for others to join.

There is a quest reward bonus for groups that stick together. The members that remain in a given group for more parts of quests are given greater rewards. Join groups early. Stick with them and be rewarded.

 

Soloing:

LOOT:: When something drops, you get the whole item. No sharing required.

• It takes longer to kill things en masse while soloing. So the item drop may take a while longer to get - or you may get it right away. It's still a better idea to group, since you can kill faster and have more chances to get the full item.
  
• Also depends if you want loot to be randomly dropped in your game.
  

DOWNTIME:: You have no bonus to recovery and regeneration while soloing.

• You may have to stop now and then to recover. Down-time isn't terribly long, but having to stop every few minutes to refresh could get a little irritating.
  
• If there are recovery items, let's say this: recovery items can add up in cost. You don't need to use them in groups (normally).
  

EXPERIENCE:: No bonus.

DUNGEONS:: Dungeons can be soloed in many parts. There is no content off-limits to soloers... but some parts cannot be fully explored alone.

• All core story-driven dungeon areas are soloable (to allow players to experience the lore without being rushed at the pace of a group). There are many parts of dungeons that must be tackled with groups, however.
  
• Bosses are soloable, as they are player-instanced and can be scaled to fit the size of the group. The dropped rewards for soloing are inferior to group rewards.
  
  

MISC NOTES:: Quests still give the same rewards, solo or grouped.

 

The idea here is that soloing is less convenient than grouping. It's not made comparably more difficult to solo, it's just less convenient. Grouping is made a lot easier and more attractive, especially with a loose group system.

I like it except for two things.

First, I hate scaling dungeons. It takes away the challenge of beating a boss.

It's like saying I can beat Mike Tyson in his prime, because you're going to scale him in the ring. So it doesn't matter if it's me, or a great boxer, we both beat Mike Tyson because he "scales". Then, he's not Mike Tyson anymore, and I don't care if I beat him. Big deal, anyone can, he scales.

I'd rather it be, this boss mob is Mike Tyson. Go on and punch him if you think you can beat him, but he's not going to scale so you get a IwIN button. If you can beat him great, if not, to bad come back with more party members, or when you have better gear, or better skills, or more levels.

The second is allowing people to join groups automatically. That is just WAY to prone to griefing. You said you can kick or ban someone, but if you have to kick or ban 100 players an hour jumping into your group that would be a pain in the arse.

I absolutly know some players would jump into groups JUST to be an asshat, and would WANT to get kicked or banned. And, maybe I have 3 in my party, and we are doing just fine, and dont' want the bonus right now because we'd need to move to a new area, or we are rl friends, guildees, etc.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

 

I like it except for two things.

First, I hate scaling dungeons. It takes away the challenge of beating a boss.

It's like saying I can beat Mike Tyson in his prime, because you're going to scale him in the ring. So it doesn't matter if it's me, or a great boxer, we both beat Mike Tyson because he "scales". Then, he's not Mike Tyson anymore, and I don't care if I beat him. Big deal, anyone can, he scales.

I'd rather it be, this boss mob is Mike Tyson. Go on and punch him if you think you can beat him, but he's not going to scale so you get a IwIN button. If you can beat him great, if not, to bad come back with more party members, or when you have better gear, or better skills, or more levels.

But isn't the point of scaling that every type of group would have the same chance to win the fight? As opposed to "I need setup X at level Y to beat the boss". 

It wouldn't be easier.. if you had 2 players at lvl50 with you, the boss would be scaled to 'hard for 3 players at lvl50'

But if you had 10 players at lvl70, the boss would be scaled to 'hard for 10 players at lvl70'.

It's not some automatic iWin button- the boss is still hard, but more accessible this time. Levels and setups won't be that crucial anymore, anyone can have a shot at him (which doesn't mean that they'll win the fight too!)

Originally posted by Hyanmen

But like I said before on the first page, soloing would be a horrible timesink if groupers got that much ahead in exp curve. Devs can't let groupers level too fast, and if the leveling process is slow for groupers that get +300% exp, think about the soloers. Would you want to be a solo player in that kind of game, or would you rather look for a game where soloing isn't such an insane timesink? That's not solo friendly in the slightest. It is group friendly though, which is good for a grouper like me, but bad for the soloer.

Ihmotepp said it somewhere on page 2 or 3, as a response to what I said above iirc. 

That depends how you look at things. Would I play a game solo in a game that gave groupers a much faster leveling speed? Yes. Would it tempt me to group? Of course, that is the point of it. Would I group all the time? Hell no, and I still might not even group up. Like I said MANY posts back, you seem to think that the only thing that matters is getting to max level as soon as possible. SOME games have fun things to do BEFORE you are max level. If it is just as easy to level solo, or even worse, EISIER to level solo, then you will not find people grouping often. If grouping gives you a tangible benefit, then you will see more people grouping. Many people don't ground because there is no benefit. Not everyone cares about socializing.

So, if an average group hits max level in 40 hours played, and it takes me soloing 100 hours to to get max level, then I would still solo a bunch of the time. And yes, it would take longer. Who cares. I soloed into my 90's in Raganrok Online, and so did my wife. Hell, she made it to 99, rerolled and hit 99 again almost complely solo. It took her almost a year and a half. And yet people in AoE groups could go to 99 in a week, and rerolled and to 99 within a month. Did that bother us? Nope. Because we were having fun actually playing the game.