Originally posted by madeux

 

Or are they built to allow solo play because that's how life is.  Sometimes you do things on your own, other times you do things with other people.

Life is built around group play. Games try to mimic life, so trying to do the opposite usually means problems in one area or the other, since it's not normal.

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by madeux

 

Or are they built to allow solo play because that's how life is.  Sometimes you do things on your own, other times you do things with other people.

Life is built around group play. Games try to mimic life, so trying to do the opposite usually means problems in one area or the other, since it's not normal.

I mow the lawn by myself all of the time.  People go hunting by myself.  I work in the same building with other people, but 90% of the time I'm actually working alone.

Sometimes people like to just shoot hoops, other times they want to play a game.

Choice!  Isn't that what it should all be about?  Isn't that what all the sandbox junkies want?

Originally posted by hailtothor

...you consider  grouping up a hassle???

Because I like a thriving, player-driven economy, where I can buy and sell materials and gear on an Auction House/Bazaar.  Because I like the special Seasonal (and other) Events the designers organize.  Because I like new, free content when it is released in patches. Because I like to use the General Chat functions.  Will that do for now?

From experience when you join a pug you generally don't know the ability or personality of the people you're grouped with.  More often then not, more then one of them turns out to be a douche or incompetant.  Now think of when you join a pug.  You're out levelling minding your own business doing what you want.  Notice someone saying "Starting a group for X!"  

So you join, and take 10-15 minutes or more to get to dungeon X.  You stand around for another 20-30 minutes waiting for everyone.  Finally get going around 45 minutes later or longer.  Within 5 minutes douche A  doesn't do something right and the group gets wiped.  You politely explain their mistake and go back to the dungeon.  15 minutes later after starting over you get into the dungeon and douche B rolls need one something they can't use.  Everyone flips out and some people leave and the entire group is a waste.  

You just wasted over an hour or more joining this PUG when you could've stayed soloing and progressing.  Now you're in the hole, with repair bills, or possibly lost exp depending on the game.

Originally posted by madeux

 

I mow the lawn by myself all of the time.  People go hunting by myself.  I work in the same building with other people, but 90% of the time I'm actually working alone.

Sometimes people like to just shoot hoops, other times they want to play a game.

Choice!  Isn't that what it should all be about?  Isn't that what all the sandbox junkies want?

Compare the time it takes from you to mow the lawn to the time you spend in school and work. The difference is enormous.

That's what grouping in MMO's is all about, too. No game forces you to be in group 100% of your playtime- group based games just have more emphasis on grouping rather than soloing. Aka real life.

Even if you work alone, you cooperate with other people at the same time. Or are you the only one working on the projects in your job? 

Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by SaintViktor

Unfortunately todays the mmos are buillt around the idea that anyone should be able to solo because it puts extra money in the developers pockets. If they make games that are built around grouping then it becomes a niche game and that means less money being made. Today it seems mmos are taking a turn for the worse. The idea of massively mulitplayer is becoming extinct.

 

Or are they built to allow solo play because that's how life is.  Sometimes you do things on your own, other times you do things with other people.

Just because someone doesn't group, doesn't mean they're not taking advantage of the massively multiplayer aspect... grouping is not required for that, especially considering that a group of 5 people, or even 40 in a raid, is hardly "massively multiplayer" on it's own.  It's about the interaction, the choice to group or go solo.

 

Actually life isn't like that.

You can mow the lawn by yourself.

You can't make the Great Pyramids by yourself, you'd die before they were finished.

There is no "choice". You can't just "choose" to make the great pyramids by yourself. It's a group effort, or you can't get it done.

That's actually how life works.

Some people want the great pyramids in the game. Doesn't mean they want to "force" you to make the great pyramids by yourself, that's not possible. Does mean they want something bigger to work on than mowing the lawn.

Your "choice" is to just take the great pyramids out of the game, since you can't do it by yourself. That's not really a "choice" that's the game that you want, getting rid of content some others would like in the game.

If you the solo player can build the great pyramid all by yourself, then it's not really the great pyramid is it?

Originally posted by Dibdabs

Because I like a thriving, player-driven economy, where I can buy and sell materials and gear on an Auction House/Bazaar.  Because I like the special Seasonal (and other) Events the designers organize.  Because I like new, free content when it is released in patches. Because I like to use the General Chat functions.  Will that do for now?

I don't believe that you play the game because you can sell people things. Or rather, I believe that players like that are in the very small minority at best. But still majority solos... the examples you gave don't explain that.

Originally posted by Hyanmen

"Sorry, but the "all groupin' all the time" is a minority mindset and as such your crowd doesn't get to make the decisions on what content goes into MMOs."

You said it, not me. The minority mindset doesn't get to make the decisions- the majority does. And don't tell me just because MMO has group content means that the minority isn't ignored- that'd make you incredibly ignorant about the issue.

To suggest that groupers are "ignored" is ignorant. Despite soloing being the prevalent playstyle, far more developer time and attention goes into grouping.

There aren't that many niche markets to fill in reality. Some are more important than others, thus need more attention. Some are less important. The main markets would probably be Grouping vs Soloing, Sandbox vs Themepark, Hardcore vs Casual and PvP vs PvE. 

You're forgetting FFA PvP, Full Looting, Permadeath, Questing, Grinding, RvR, Housing, Crafting, Skill Based, Level Based, Puzzle, Forced Grouping .. there are doubtless a ton more of them and each has their very own vocal minority demanding that every developer does everything the exact way that they want it.

Playing MMO doesn't have to be a compromise, that's just silly. Playing offline games isn't some kind of compromise either, you can choose a game for your liking and don't have to make any compromises. The only thing not making this possible in MMO genre is the greediness of the developers, nothing more. The market is big enough for every one of those main niches to be filled, but the developers don't want to fill them because the dollar signs in their eyes tell them to try to cater to every playstyle at once, even though this particular strategy has only worked well in one game.

Playing MMOs IS a compromise, for exactly the reason you stated. In a perfect world, every MMO player would have their own personal "perfect" game, but games cost money and are made by businessmen. That's just a fact of life.

At least offline RPG is closer to online RPG than online FPS to online RPG.

Neither are close enough and no-one has the right to dictate what games others play.

And that pyramid example is pretty funny.. I agree with it though.

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by madeux

 

I mow the lawn by myself all of the time.  People go hunting by myself.  I work in the same building with other people, but 90% of the time I'm actually working alone.

Sometimes people like to just shoot hoops, other times they want to play a game.

Choice!  Isn't that what it should all be about?  Isn't that what all the sandbox junkies want?

Compare the time it takes from you to mow the lawn to the time you spend in school and work. The difference is enormous.

That's what grouping in MMO's is all about, too. No game forces you to be in group 100% of your playtime- group based games just have more emphasis on grouping rather than soloing. Aka real life.

Even if you work alone, you cooperate with other people at the same time. Or are you the only one working on the projects in your job? 

In school, and in work, you're there with other people... you interact with other people... sometimes you may have a group projects, but for the most part you're on your own.  But how many times have you been thrown in a group project, at work or at school, with incompetent losers that are only going to bring you down? :)

I cooperate in an MMO by running my own guild when I use to play WoW, oh so many years ago.. heh  I cooperate by taking place in the economy.  I cooperate by, when I'm in the mood, helping the lowbies in the guild to level up.  And when I'm in the mood, I might even do some group questing... But by choice, not because I have to.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by SaintViktor

Unfortunately todays the mmos are buillt around the idea that anyone should be able to solo because it puts extra money in the developers pockets. If they make games that are built around grouping then it becomes a niche game and that means less money being made. Today it seems mmos are taking a turn for the worse. The idea of massively mulitplayer is becoming extinct.

 

Or are they built to allow solo play because that's how life is.  Sometimes you do things on your own, other times you do things with other people.

Just because someone doesn't group, doesn't mean they're not taking advantage of the massively multiplayer aspect... grouping is not required for that, especially considering that a group of 5 people, or even 40 in a raid, is hardly "massively multiplayer" on it's own.  It's about the interaction, the choice to group or go solo.

 

 

Actually life isn't like that.

You can mow the lawn by yourself.

You can't make the Great Pyramids by yourself, you'd die before they were finished.

There is no "choice". You can't just "choose" to make the great pyramids by yourself. It's a group effort, or you can't get it done.

That's actually how life works.

Some people want the great pyramids in the game. Doesn't mean they want to "force" you to make the great pyramids by yourself, that's not possible. Does mean they want something bigger to work on than mowing the lawn.

Your "choice" is to just take the great pyramids out of the game, since you can't do it by yourself. That's not really a "choice" that's the game that you want, getting rid of content some others would like in the game.

 

If you the solo player can build the great pyramid all by yourself, then it's not really the great pyramid is it?

 

 

Just the opposite is true... How flippin' great would it be to do that all by you're self?  You the man!

Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by SaintViktor

Unfortunately todays the mmos are buillt around the idea that anyone should be able to solo because it puts extra money in the developers pockets. If they make games that are built around grouping then it becomes a niche game and that means less money being made. Today it seems mmos are taking a turn for the worse. The idea of massively mulitplayer is becoming extinct.

 

Or are they built to allow solo play because that's how life is.  Sometimes you do things on your own, other times you do things with other people.

Just because someone doesn't group, doesn't mean they're not taking advantage of the massively multiplayer aspect... grouping is not required for that, especially considering that a group of 5 people, or even 40 in a raid, is hardly "massively multiplayer" on it's own.  It's about the interaction, the choice to group or go solo.

 

Totally disagree but to each their own I guess. If some are unwilling to group and be a part of the social experience with other people I don't see why developers call them mmorpgs because essentially people are treating these types of games like it is a  single player rpg. FFXI is a classic example of how mmos should work.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by Hyanmen

"Sorry, but the "all groupin' all the time" is a minority mindset and as such your crowd doesn't get to make the decisions on what content goes into MMOs."

You said it, not me. The minority mindset doesn't get to make the decisions- the majority does. And don't tell me just because MMO has group content means that the minority isn't ignored- that'd make you incredibly ignorant about the issue.

To suggest that groupers are "ignored" is ignorant. Despite soloing being the prevalent playstyle, far more developer time and attention goes into grouping.

There aren't that many niche markets to fill in reality. Some are more important than others, thus need more attention. Some are less important. The main markets would probably be Grouping vs Soloing, Sandbox vs Themepark, Hardcore vs Casual and PvP vs PvE. 

You're forgetting FFA PvP, Full Looting, Permadeath, Questing, Grinding, RvR, Housing, Crafting, Skill Based, Level Based, Puzzle, Forced Grouping .. there are doubtless a ton more of them and each has their very own vocal minority demanding that every developer does everything the exact way that they want it.

Playing MMO doesn't have to be a compromise, that's just silly. Playing offline games isn't some kind of compromise either, you can choose a game for your liking and don't have to make any compromises. The only thing not making this possible in MMO genre is the greediness of the developers, nothing more. The market is big enough for every one of those main niches to be filled, but the developers don't want to fill them because the dollar signs in their eyes tell them to try to cater to every playstyle at once, even though this particular strategy has only worked well in one game.

Playing MMOs IS a compromise, for exactly the reason you stated. In a perfect world, every MMO player would have their own personal "perfect" game, but games cost money and are made by businessmen. That's just a fact of life.

At least offline RPG is closer to online RPG than online FPS to online RPG.

Neither are close enough and no-one has the right to dictate what games others play.

 

 

If far more time goes into grouping than soloing, why are there only solo-based MMO's around these days? It makes no sense.

Your niche examples are silly, too. Each of those examples can be put into a subgenre of the ones I mentioned. Players can deal with not having one or two of those less important features, as long as the ones I mentioned are there. Players don't demand perfection, only that the general idea is there.

Like I already said, each of those genres has enough market to be profitable and successful. There's no reason to make a compromise.

Originally posted by SaintViktor

Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by SaintViktor

Unfortunately todays the mmos are buillt around the idea that anyone should be able to solo because it puts extra money in the developers pockets. If they make games that are built around grouping then it becomes a niche game and that means less money being made. Today it seems mmos are taking a turn for the worse. The idea of massively mulitplayer is becoming extinct.

 

Or are they built to allow solo play because that's how life is.  Sometimes you do things on your own, other times you do things with other people.

Just because someone doesn't group, doesn't mean they're not taking advantage of the massively multiplayer aspect... grouping is not required for that, especially considering that a group of 5 people, or even 40 in a raid, is hardly "massively multiplayer" on it's own.  It's about the interaction, the choice to group or go solo.

 

 

Totally disagree but to each their own I guess. If some are unwilling to group and be a part of the social experience with other people I don't see why developers call them mmorpgs because essentially people are treating these types of games like it is a  single player rpg. FFXI is a classic example of how mmos should work.

Exactly what part are you disagreeing with?  Are you telling me that you don't believe that in real life, sometimes you do things on your own? lol

How on earth does a 5 man group suddenly make the "massively multiplayer"?  Obviously, the size of your group isn't the determining factor.

---

Originally posted by hailtothor

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Originally posted by Baoghal

Generally speaking, I believe people don't necessarily want to group together in order to have fun. Lots of people play MMOs in order to escape to a different world and/or have a shared experience with others. They'd like to be part of a different society. It's not always just about playing through the quests with other people.

---

I can see what you mean, but I still don't think that you need to play an MMO to achieve that, as you still share the expeiereince of a game on an online forums etc. But yeah...I can see why someone would play MMOs just for that...good answer.
 

---

I sometimes like to group, but I need to be able to solo. I play MMOs because they are persistent worlds. I log out, and the world keeps going. I come back, and it is the same world, with the same people. I encounter the same friends and the same enemies. I usually only group for things I absolutely have to, especially these days where most MMOs are tailored to soloing, so if if I am in a group, it is so easy I can't stand it.

Originally posted by Hyanmen

If far more time goes into grouping than soloing, why are there only solo-based MMO's around these days? It makes no sense.

Your niche examples are silly, too. Each of those examples can be put into a subgenre of the ones I mentioned. Players can deal with not having one or two of those less important features, as long as the ones I mentioned are there. Players don't demand perfection, only that the general idea is there.

Like I already said, each of those genres has enough market to be profitable and successful. There's no reason to make a compromise.

Please name a solo game that does not support grouping.

There's a word that would adequately describe a situation whereby players can enjoy a game despite not having "one or two of those less important features" be exactly to their specifications: Compromise. I mentioned it earlier.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Please name a solo game that does not support grouping.

There's a word that would adequately describe a situation whereby players can enjoy a game despite not having "one or two of those less important features" be exactly to their specifications: Compromise. I mentioned it earlier.

Please name a group game that has come out after 2004. Can't think of many. That's what I mean by the companies ignoring us.

Now we have the word in the right context too, great. We're making progress.

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Please name a solo game that does not support grouping.

There's a word that would adequately describe a situation whereby players can enjoy a game despite not having "one or two of those less important features" be exactly to their specifications: Compromise. I mentioned it earlier.

Please name a group game that has come out after 2004. Can't think of many. That's what I mean by the companies ignoring us.

Now we have the word in the right context too, great. We're making progress.

Why is it that the solo players are just fine with people who want to group, but those who want to group hold such animosity for solo players?

Originally posted by madeux

 

Why is it that the solo players are just fine with people who want to group, but those who want to group hold such animosity for solo players?

Because every game released caters to solo playstyle, not grouping. I wouldn't have a problem if it was the opposite too, lol.

Originally posted by madeux

Why is it that the solo players are just fine with people who want to group, but those who want to group hold such animosity for solo players?

Just wanna point out that I didn't start this post out of any ill will against people that play solo...I just wanted to learn about it from someone that play the MMOs different from what I'm used to...If that is what you got out of the original post, I'm sorry...
 

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by madeux

 

Why is it that the solo players are just fine with people who want to group, but those who want to group hold such animosity for solo players?

Because every game released caters to solo playstyle, not grouping. I wouldn't have a problem if it was the opposite too, lol.

So what game is it that doesn't allow you to group?

Originally posted by hailtothor

...you consider  grouping up a hassle???

I've been roaming around this immense forum now for a while, and I have come across several loud complaints about MMOs having a 'need' for grouping up to progress further...a need to get a group to progress in the 'story' etc. I'm of the social sort, and group up when I have the chance to. Both to complete the tasks above, and to meet new people...AND...have fun with people I already know. I thought grouping up was the intent when the gaming studios started making MMOs??....to play with other people etc.

Why would you pay to play on an online server, if you could get immense, story driven RPGs to have all to yourself...without the need to group???

I know that not everyone have the time it takes to get a pug for low-level group quests and other things it takes several low lvles to work together....especially in an old game where the 'newbie' zones most often are deserted, but I find that asking a high lvl also often yields a positive result. With a little effort most such tasks can be done in a timely manner...

Anyway...anyone up for answering my question :) preferably without taking my head off. I'm just wondering...that's all...hehe

Because mmo's are more than just grouping. They are about being in a living world. Doesn't have to be a full on living world but the feeling one gets, say, playing oblivion is different than playing in a game where real people are going about doing their own thing.

And I don't know what type of person you are in real life, but do you spend every waking moment doing things with other people or do you like to do things on your own?

I have times I want to hang with friends, times to be with the girlfriend, and times that I just want to write or practice or just read or listen to music.

When I play an mmo I want to enjoy myself, not have to always deal with other people's issues and drama. So I like the life they give to the world but don't always want to get caught up with players I'd rather not socialize with.

Originally posted by madeux

So what game is it that doesn't allow you to group?

Better question would be "what game is it that doesn't cater to my playstyle?" and the answer would be: All of them.

In grouping games you can solo as well, but that doesn't mean that the game caters to soloers playstyle. It's the same with MMO's nowadays, only that it's the opposite. Of course soloers won't have a problem with that, but it's obvious why groupers wouldn't agree with that.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Because mmo's are more than just grouping. They are about being in a living world. Doesn't have to be a full on living world but the feeling one gets, say, playing oblivion is different than playing in a game where real people are going about doing their own thing.

Why exactly is Oblivion different from some online game? Elaborate please. What's so special about people going about doing their own thing, it's hardly interesting in real life either- why does it suddenly matter in a game?

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by Dibdabs

Because I like a thriving, player-driven economy, where I can buy and sell materials and gear on an Auction House/Bazaar.  Because I like the special Seasonal (and other) Events the designers organize.  Because I like new, free content when it is released in patches. Because I like to use the General Chat functions.  Will that do for now?

I don't believe that you play the game because you can sell people things. Or rather, I believe that players like that are in the very small minority at best. But still majority solos... the examples you gave don't explain that.

It is, as I listed in my post, ONE of the reasons.  It isn't even so much that I can sell to players - it's more like there are thousands of lowbies out there gathering resources (and making things I may wish to buy such as Weapon Enchants, armour, other gear, etc.)  so I don't have to farm items for myself.  I can buy from all these busy little bees and let them do the legwork.

OK, here's a few reasons why I don't usually group, as opposed to reasons why I play MMOs as an alternative to solo RPGs.

I seldom group because I see no need to split my XP and gp/plat/ISK with anyone,  I can solo the content comfortably anyway, I don't have to put up with others going AFK while mummy makes their dinner, I don't have to put up with their mistakes and inane banter, I can keep all the nice rare items that drop all to myself and I can keep all the resources such as metals and plants that I find.

The last and most important reason - way too many players are inarticulate, undereducated dimwits that I wouldn't waste my time with in Real Life, never mind a Virtual Life.  There may be some really nice people that I'll never meet in-game, but then, it IS just a game.  It isn't a relationship.