After not playing a pve based mmo for a very long time (since I quit FFXI) and even with being disappointed by the last 5 major mmo releases (Aion, WAR, AoC, Vanguard and honestly LotRO) ...

for what ever reason...

against al logic...

I'm fairly excited.

FFXI with no levels, dynamic classes changing and updated graphics / UI - it's hard not to have a small smile on my face and want to believe the hype.

-D^t

edit: took out "mid fight" for correctness.

Originally posted by dominia

After not playing a pve based mmo for a very long time (since I quit FFXI) and even with being disappointed by the last 5 major mmo releases (Aion, WAR, AoC, Vanguard and honestly LotRO) ...

for what ever reason...

against al logic...

I'm fairly excited.

 

FFXI with no levels, dynamic classes changing mid fight and updated graphics / UI - it's hard not to have a small smile on my face and want to believe the hype.

-D^t

Its Teddie!!!!!(love that game)

Originally posted by dominia

After not playing a pve based mmo for a very long time (since I quit FFXI) and even with being disappointed by the last 5 major mmo releases (Aion, WAR, AoC, Vanguard and honestly LotRO) ...

for what ever reason...

against al logic...

I'm fairly excited.

 

FFXI with no levels, dynamic classes changing mid fight and updated graphics / UI - it's hard not to have a small smile on my face and want to believe the hype.

-D^t

Believe me you are not the only one. After being hearbroken by AoC (Cause I loved the Conan Mythos!) I too was a old skool FFXI player.. I heard all the rumblings and rumors that they were planning on making a new one. When they finally announced it I was very happy to hear it.

Now I do have faith in Square but, I must admit that the solo capacity of this game does scare me a touch. But Im sure that they have some kind of check/balances in place for the soloer's. Well at least I would like to think so. Given what Square has done in the past, I would assume that the reason why they implemented the idea of solo was due to the fact of the time sync of waiting for a party. Others would suggest because WoW is so great, as the reasoning why Square has taken the path to soloing. But I was one of the players that wished for the solo aspect. Just something for me to do when waiting for a party. Because I loved how Square implemented the party aspect of the game. I can only hope that they keep that aspect.

But.. regardless, im glad they are making a new game and hope that they come out with it sooner rather than later.

I'm unsure why so many are refering to WoW as the reason for solo play in this mmo.

SE has a solid history of allowing multiple paths of solo play to persist in FFXI even if some were borderline exploiting (blm anyone?). BST was a popular class for a reason even with no real party merit for many years and I think SE looked at it and said, "we should of allowed every class to solo at least a little to cater to everyone's playstyles.".

I too believe solo play will meet strict checks and balances by SE (limited weapon skill or gil/hour, long downtime, low survivability, maybe even limited to only certain mobs) but I'm failry certain the storyline will require multiple groups - and in the end, with no xp level grind, isn't storyline missions and boss hunting really all that matters?

Originally posted by dominia

I'm unsure why so many are refering to WoW as the reason for solo play in this mmo.

 

SE has a solid history of allowing multiple paths of solo play to persist in FFXI even if some were borderline exploiting (blm anyone?). BST was a popular class for a reason even with no real party merit for many years and I think SE looked at it and said, "we should of allowed every class to solo at least a little to cater to everyone's playstyles.".

 

I too believe solo play will meet strict checks and balances by SE (limited weapon skill or gil/hour, long downtime, low survivability, maybe even limited to only certain mobs) but I'm failry certain the storyline will require multiple groups - and in the end, with no xp level grind, isn't storyline missions and boss hunting really all that matters?

I loved beastmaster but you couldn't use a pet in a group which lowered your dps or else you get less exp then the others by using a pet.

Originally posted by dominia

I'm unsure why so many are refering to WoW as the reason for solo play in this mmo.

 

SE has a solid history of allowing multiple paths of solo play to persist in FFXI even if some were borderline exploiting (blm anyone?). BST was a popular class for a reason even with no real party merit for many years and I think SE looked at it and said, "we should of allowed every class to solo at least a little to cater to everyone's playstyles.".

 

I too believe solo play will meet strict checks and balances by SE (limited weapon skill or gil/hour, long downtime, low survivability, maybe even limited to only certain mobs) but I'm failry certain the storyline will require multiple groups - and in the end, with no xp level grind, isn't storyline missions and boss hunting really all that matters?

I think the reason that most people mention WoW is because practically every MMO that has been released since, has copied the WoW approach.

The group leveling system in FFXI was incredible (excluding the hours wasted looking for a party, hehe). It allowed for a close knit community of players; I knew or had partied with half of my server after 6 months of playing. It was rare for me to come accross a name that I hadn't seen at least a few times before.

I truly hope that you're right in regards to your last paragraph, dominia, but I have my doubts. It's been years since a mainstream game has discouraged solo play in favour of group play. Let's hope that SE does it right... again.

Originally posted by Alioth

Originally posted by dominia

I'm unsure why so many are refering to WoW as the reason for solo play in this mmo.

 

SE has a solid history of allowing multiple paths of solo play to persist in FFXI even if some were borderline exploiting (blm anyone?). BST was a popular class for a reason even with no real party merit for many years and I think SE looked at it and said, "we should of allowed every class to solo at least a little to cater to everyone's playstyles.".

 

I too believe solo play will meet strict checks and balances by SE (limited weapon skill or gil/hour, long downtime, low survivability, maybe even limited to only certain mobs) but I'm failry certain the storyline will require multiple groups - and in the end, with no xp level grind, isn't storyline missions and boss hunting really all that matters?

 

I think the reason that most people mention WoW is because practically every MMO that has been released since, has copied the WoW approach.

The group leveling system in FFXI was incredible (excluding the hours wasted looking for a party, hehe). It allowed for a close knit community of players; I knew or had partied with half of my server after 6 months of playing. It was rare for me to come accross a name that I hadn't seen at least a few times before.

I truly hope that you're right in regards to your last paragraph, dominia, but I have my doubts. It's been years since a mainstream game has discouraged solo play in favour of group play. Let's hope that SE does it right... again.

I completely agree and believe it's a vaild concern if this game were a normal level based mmo. As is, even in WoW, nothing of any signifince can be accomplished with out the help of others at level cap.

Originally posted by dominia

After not playing a pve based mmo for a very long time (since I quit FFXI) and even with being disappointed by the last 5 major mmo releases (Aion, WAR, AoC, Vanguard and honestly LotRO) ...

for what ever reason...

against al logic...

I'm fairly excited.

 

FFXI with no levels, dynamic classes changing mid fight and updated graphics / UI - it's hard not to have a small smile on my face and want to believe the hype.

-D^t

They already said you can't change during a battle.

But I think that's a good thing, there would be way too many exploits. I'm very excited about FF14

I can't express how excited I am for this game.

I was a die-hard FFXI fan, through the good, the bad, and the ugly. Ever since FFXI, I've gone through multiple MMO's (Vanguard, AoC, WAR LotRO for starters), and all of them left me very disheartened. AoC and Vanguard were by far the most inexcusable failures of the bunch...

I'm really looking forward to this one. I hope they do keep the group mechanics involved in this game.

It wasn't until WAR and AoC, where I essentially solo'd until the last 5 levels before cap, that I realized "This is not an MMO experience". I don't consider grinding to level cap, and then teaming up for raids a "community" by any means.

One of FFXI's strongest qualities was always that it had a superior in-game community, because you HAD to interact with everyone. I hope to see SE replicate that setting with this game.

Do not get me wrong. I'm drinking SE's coolaid by the barrel. Im cooking, washing myself, cleaning the windows and floorboards and even feeding the pets SE's coolaid (the neighbours pets, I don't have any).

But I still have a concern about group dynamic,and whether it will only take place in instanced/end game/segregated areas, which remove grouping from everyday needs in FF14, and in doing so have a negative effect on th community.

Heck, Im playing FF11 again, and I need a few palls just to get things done for myself, like G1, AF , teleports, crafting, etc. (In regards to Crafting, FF14 may just amaze us with... gosh if any beautiful game makers were going to making crafting huge, it woud have to be SE. Imagine how every little material will look awesome and the crafting process for high end gear? Beautiful)

I just don't want grouping to be solely for the purpose of raids and things like that.

Companies are motivated mostly by profit(and one might say for a company like SE reputation; which really only boils down to the idea of future profit), The reason they make good games is because they will make profit. Logic says WOW is a good game- look at its profit. Logically SE- being a company- wants to make profit. So it is only reasonable they will look to the game, that the government of China is intimidated by, for ideas. (then again what isn't the governement of that country wary of).

PS: I love China and all Asian countries. I am not hating, it was a joke about Chinas communist regime being wary of change and Western ideals yadi yadi yada... and huge western MMOs taking their monies away from home titles.

Edited for grammar.

In fairness, WoW built much of its basic concepts from prior mmo's but its not like a secret. As far FF14, a develop has to feel like a news reporter; you want to be ahead of the curve but not so far ahead that you get your story wrong and it ends up being false because you didn't have the fact. How it relates to game developing? Companies want to be novel and new but not so much that players scratch their heads and are taken by surprise. Fact is because it *is* SE making it, we expect something that is familiar.

This is just my humble opinion but as much as I loved FF11, I'm less than excited by one thing: lack of faith in their listening to the fanbase. Frankly the rmt inflation of 2years after ps2 release and taking the easy route on "item dupings" (it was posted on JP forums for 2 years and they never cared to do a thing about it and no I was never banned k_ty) was really never handled well in my eyes despite how much they were told and looked the other way. I believe SE can really put out a quality FF game and unlike other mmo's they actually know they WILL get a player base easily, not many games can say they will launch and know ppl will buy it.

As for the solo play, given how FoV works and, to an extent, even campaign, I think SE has done something original in making solo play to achieve goals that normally are done in a party that have some reward and don't piss you off (aka looking for a party and waiting hours because there is no tank seeking and can't make one and then log out of boredom vs. FoV) or allowing solo play with group coordination (aka campaign where you don't have to join a party but can still get something out of it).

Either way given how FF11 feels like its now a field experiment for FF14, I really hope they get their act together and not fk up big time or find a way to ruin it.

Originally posted by sdeleon515

In fairness, WoW built much of its basic concepts from prior mmo's but its not like a secret. As far FF14, a develop has to feel like a news reporter; you want to be ahead of the curve but not so far ahead that you get your story wrong and it ends up being false because you didn't have the fact. How it relates to game developing? Companies want to be novel and new but not so much that players scratch their heads and are taken by surprise. Fact is because it *is* SE making it, we expect something that is familiar.

This is just my humble opinion but as much as I loved FF11, I'm less than excited by one thing: lack of faith in their listening to the fanbase. Frankly the rmt inflation of 2years after ps2 release and taking the easy route on "item dupings" (it was posted on JP forums for 2 years and they never cared to do a thing about it and no I was never banned k_ty) was really never handled well in my eyes despite how much they were told and looked the other way. I believe SE can really put out a quality FF game and unlike other mmo's they actually know they WILL get a player base easily, not many games can say they will launch and know ppl will buy it.

As for the solo play, given how FoV works and, to an extent, even campaign, I think SE has done something original in making solo play to achieve goals that normally are done in a party that have some reward and don't piss you off (aka looking for a party and waiting hours because there is no tank seeking and can't make one and then log out of boredom vs. FoV) or allowing solo play with group coordination (aka campaign where you don't have to join a party but can still get something out of it).

Either way given how FF11 feels like its now a field experiment for FF14, I really hope they get their act together and not fk up big time or find a way to ruin it.

Sounds like you are thinking the same way we all are.

It is not that we lack faith in SE, I am sure FF13 will be amazing,(well some lack faith in SE and say their quality is going down, in favour of quantity). It is that we lack faith in MMOs nowdays. For whatever reason, companies are not making games that attracted us like FF11 did. So now we are wondering, given the news SE has given us, and now sometimes I wish they had just given us trailers instead, whether SE's new MMO will be similar to the MMOs we have all tried since FF11.

Its not SE, its MMOs in general. With FF11 SE showed they could make a deep and enthralling MMOG. We ALL hope that SE has given us a similar experience in FF14.

The OP is correct here. The last 5 major mmos have been pretty much major fail on all sorts of levels. The only issue I ever really had with SE was the fact they made everything way too long to accomplish. I like SE but they could improve on how long it takes people to accomplish stuff.

Originally posted by Bellarion

Sounds like you are thinking the same way we all are.

.It is not that we lack faith in SE, I am sure FF14 will be amazing,(well some lack faith in SE and say their quality is going down, in favour of quantity). It is that we lack faith in MMOs nowdays For whatever reason, companies are not making games that attracted us like FF11 did. So now we are wondering, given the news SE has given us, and now sometimes I wish they had just given us trailers instead, whether SE's new MMO will be similar to the MMOs we have all tried since FF11.

Its not SE, its MMOs in general. With FF11 SE showed they could make a deep and enthralling MMOG. We ALL hope that SE has given us a similar experience in FF14.

 I think you pinned my under tone exactly. A lot of mmo's now adays have great sub systems, catchy gimicks, and faily good design ideas but fail to capture them all into a cohesive world. WAR is a prime example. It was a game of many cool and interesting ideas that could easily feed a hype machine (and did).

For a short time I worried that I was falling in to the same trap with FFXIV, great ideas but little to capture the imagination. Then I remembered my first couple of days after FFXI's launch.  Navigating Sandy, experiencing the "run" to Jeuno, aquiring an airship pass, heck even forming groups for my dual class quest out in the dunes all held a certain flare that tied the world together in a cohesive way that made it much more then a game.

SE has a way, with nearly every product they put out, to become much more then what it is on the surface. When I began thinking back over the years to FFVII, FFVI, FFIV, FFIX, FFXII, FFT, FFTA, Xenogears, Bushio Blade, ect... I honestly have no reason to doubt them.

Now to the above comment about not listening to it's player base...

The RTM situation is a difficult one. I recently heard Jeff Hickman at the Austin GDC speaking about how the economy for WAR was too RTM proof and because of it, destroyed the value of they're currency to the point where the whole system colapsed. I believe SE knew they had a problem early but didn't really know how to fix it in a way that would not compromise the integrity of their game. It's easy to point to reasons if your a fan, but what if you being wrong ment millions of dollars?

One of the most important things a game company can do is believe in they're product and approach. SE doesn't make large sweeping changes to their subsystems like Blizzard (WoW looks and plays massively different then it did even this time last year) and they defintily don't hastley make game changing dissicions. I think SE does listen to it's player base but reacts much slower.

I'm hoping you'll see the result of 5 years of player oppinions and iterations in FFXIV which will be very exciting.

Originally posted by dominia

Originally posted by Bellarion

Sounds like you are thinking the same way we all are.

.It is not that we lack faith in SE, I am sure FF14 will be amazing,(well some lack faith in SE and say their quality is going down, in favour of quantity). It is that we lack faith in MMOs nowdays For whatever reason, companies are not making games that attracted us like FF11 did. So now we are wondering, given the news SE has given us, and now sometimes I wish they had just given us trailers instead, whether SE's new MMO will be similar to the MMOs we have all tried since FF11.

Its not SE, its MMOs in general. With FF11 SE showed they could make a deep and enthralling MMOG. We ALL hope that SE has given us a similar experience in FF14.

 I think you pinned my under tone exactly. A lot of mmo's now adays have great sub systems, catchy gimicks, and faily good design ideas but fail to capture them all into a cohesive world. WAR is a prime example. It was a game of many cool and interesting ideas that could easily feed a hype machine (and did).

 

For a short time I worried that I was falling in to the same trap with FFXIV, great ideas but little to capture the imagination. Then I remembered my first couple of days after FFXI's launch.  Navigating Sandy, experiencing the "run" to Jeuno, aquiring an airship pass, heck even forming groups for my dual class quest out in the dunes all held a certain flare that tied the world together in a cohesive way that made it much more then a game.

I sum it up this way...  Other MMOs feel to me like games... like playgrounds with a bunch of different activities to do - a "theme park" if you will - that really don't feel like parts of a cohesive whole. Meanwhile, in FFXI , Vana'diel feels like a massive "world" where everything "fits", creating a cohesive whole.

SE has a way, with nearly every product they put out, to become much more then what it is on the surface. When I began thinking back over the years to FFVII, FFVI, FFIV, FFIX, FFXII, FFT, FFTA, Xenogears, Bushio Blade, ect... I honestly have no reason to doubt them.

 

Understood, I just hate the term "Themepark mmo" as to me it under values the time and effort put in by the devs. Every mmo has great people behind it with a deep understanding of the design process, what works and what doesn't, and what the gamers are asking for. Many devs have been playing mmo's since the MUD days, were part of a gank squad in UO and were a major raider in the early days of EQ. I don't doubt that many of them want a compelling world to live in like the old days but many times they get caught up in the moment of a great idea that doesn't pan out like they hoped.

Also remember game dev has a lot of politics involved (follow the money ect..). A bother's uncle of a second cousin who is a shareholder can threaten will pull out if certain conditions are not met. You find this a lot in AAA titles where it's safer for the lender if the game is made with in certain parameters (i.e. following a previously established template to make an mmo) to lower the risk of failure. Game design isn't as black and white nor as romantic as gamers precieve. 

Compaines like CCP, SE, Blizz and BioWare have the luxury of pushing new boandries and owning their own IP which is why their games are generally successful.

Originally posted by dominia

SE has a solid history of allowing multiple paths of solo play to persist in FFXI even if some were borderline exploiting (blm anyone?).

BLM was NEVER intended to be soloable. In fact BLMs power is based upon skill chaining and magic bursting and -- normally -- needs at least three people to pull off. As you said it was exploitative and dare I say the wrong way to play the job. Personally I can't even fathom how someone can solo the damn job. I used to kill elementals in Ru'Ann Gardens back in the gilseller days when Fire Clusters were close to 10-15k a pop. I was bored out of my fucking mind within about 10 minutes of it. The job is supposed to be played where you debuff mobs as best you can then time your magic against the skills chains of your fellow adventurers, not this sleep-nuke-sleep bullshit they do today. I guess it is a biproduct of people not trying to skill chain now a days so they had to do it, but still it is jut wrong.

I played FFXI and didn't like it at all. But I have to say, yeah, I'm really excited for this release. I have to watch myself and not rev myself up too much because that always leads to disapointment; so it is with cautious enthusiasm that I await this game.

I find that most people that did play WoW before they played FFXi, usually dont like it. Due to the fact that it is not as easy as WoW. Let me clarify before people start flaming. For instance, there was not a quest log to show you what to do next. This was partially because FFXi was meant to be a very social MMO. A game based on the group and the players. It forced you to ask questions, for help or to get a party together. Also, simply that the game was based off of the Ever Quest platform. So in short very old skool.

Next would be the graphics, Originally FFXi was made for the PS2 and came out that way in Japan. It wasnt until November of 2002 when it was available to PC. If you are not too sure about my info feel free to check it here... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_XI Another reason why graphics were so poor, because in those days internet was absolutely slower than it is today. It was easier to send that kind of data over a 56k or DSL modem. They wanted a fluid game and when the internet was upgraded they didnt have any issues.

So in short, FFXI was old and because it was old it forced you to find your information than it being provided to you. After about 6 months playing the game, people found the information online to help them with quests and what have you. Not going to lie, the UI could have been better, but what do you really expect from a game that was being developed in 1997? FFXI set the tone at the time for PVE, then later even better games came out. It was not until recently that I have noticed that MMO's are created to please the masses.

 FFXI was the last of the classic MMO genre (imo), and it is one of the best :)

I'm glad to see threads like this and many others across the boards looking forward to FFXIV, with of course reasonable doubt.  Goes to show everyone not every thread on the site requires a flame or bashing pre-release.

Go FFIV Fans and hand me a refill, that kool aid is damn tasty.

Lot of good points in this thread.

I just hope SE makes FFXIV an MMORPG, and not an online rpg like AoC, WAR, and Aion. Thats what this genre has degraded to is simple online RPG's.

Originally posted by dominia

Understood, I just hate the term "Themepark mmo" as to me it under values the time and effort put in by the devs. Every mmo has great people behind it with a deep understanding of the design process, what works and what doesn't, and what the gamers are asking for. Many devs have been playing mmo's since the MUD days, were part of a gank squad in UO and were a major raider in the early days of EQ. I don't doubt that many of them want a compelling world to live in like the old days but many times they get caught up in the moment of a great idea that doesn't pan out like they hoped.

Ahhh I don't think it's a harmful term in and of itself. There are MMOs that really are best described as a "theme park", because it just happens to be the way it's designed. I know the term has been given a negative connotation by many... so if someone says a game is a "theme park", it automatically "sucks".

I think that's a product of many people needing to feel like whatever MMO they've decided to play is "the best MMO out there" and everything else sucks. Fortunately, I don't think that way at all. To me it's all in the context the term is used in.

And believe me, I do not underappreciate the amount of work that goes into an MMO. I'm a huge fan of MMOs and often believe that enough people don't appreciate the time and effort that goes into them as much as they should. People seem to think that something like a new area, complete with geography, quests, NPCs, creatures and so on can be cranked out as fast as players can get through them, and that's simply not the case. If that were the case, they wouldn't take 3+ years to develop, considering how players can get through the game, to the level cap in a matter of months these days.

So, yeah... I don't get all bent out of shape over the use of "theme park"... Just depends on how it's used to me -shrug-

 

Originally posted by WSIMike

Originally posted by dominia

Understood, I just hate the term "Themepark mmo" as to me it under values the time and effort put in by the devs. Every mmo has great people behind it with a deep understanding of the design process, what works and what doesn't, and what the gamers are asking for. Many devs have been playing mmo's since the MUD days, were part of a gank squad in UO and were a major raider in the early days of EQ. I don't doubt that many of them want a compelling world to live in like the old days but many times they get caught up in the moment of a great idea that doesn't pan out like they hoped.

Ahhh I don't think it's a harmful term in and of itself. There are MMOs that really are best described as a "theme park", because it just happens to be the way it's designed. I know the term has been given a negative connotation by many... so if someone says a game is a "theme park", it automatically "sucks".

I think that's a product of many people needing to feel like whatever MMO they've decided to play is "the best MMO out there" and everything else sucks. Fortunately, I don't think that way at all. To me it's all in the context the term is used in.

And believe me, I do not underappreciate the amount of work that goes into an MMO. I'm a huge fan of MMOs and often believe that enough people don't appreciate the time and effort that goes into them as much as they should. People seem to think that something like a new area, complete with geography, quests, NPCs, creatures and so on can be cranked out as fast as players can get through them, and that's simply not the case. If that were the case, they wouldn't take 3+ years to develop, considering how players can get through the game, to the level cap in a matter of months these days.

So, yeah... I don't get all bent out of shape over the use of "theme park"... Just depends on how it's used to me -shrug-

 

 

Hehe no worries, honestly I should of clarified it wasn't really directed at you. It just ended up becoming a personal tangent to most posters on the site that powergrind though good content, don't read quests, don't get immerest in a storyline, don't socialize and don't make an attempt at creating their own fun along the way - then complain that there isn't enough to do in a game.

It was a pet pieve of mine and again I really didn't intend for it to interupt the flow of conversation, I know Mike you're critical of mmo's when you need to be but in a very fair manner. I've always enjoyed your posts in the past and I sincerly didn't mean for my post to offend you if it did. =)

Originally posted by dominia

Originally posted by WSIMike

Originally posted by dominia

Understood, I just hate the term "Themepark mmo" as to me it under values the time and effort put in by the devs. Every mmo has great people behind it with a deep understanding of the design process, what works and what doesn't, and what the gamers are asking for. Many devs have been playing mmo's since the MUD days, were part of a gank squad in UO and were a major raider in the early days of EQ. I don't doubt that many of them want a compelling world to live in like the old days but many times they get caught up in the moment of a great idea that doesn't pan out like they hoped.

Ahhh I don't think it's a harmful term in and of itself. There are MMOs that really are best described as a "theme park", because it just happens to be the way it's designed. I know the term has been given a negative connotation by many... so if someone says a game is a "theme park", it automatically "sucks".

I think that's a product of many people needing to feel like whatever MMO they've decided to play is "the best MMO out there" and everything else sucks. Fortunately, I don't think that way at all. To me it's all in the context the term is used in.

And believe me, I do not underappreciate the amount of work that goes into an MMO. I'm a huge fan of MMOs and often believe that enough people don't appreciate the time and effort that goes into them as much as they should. People seem to think that something like a new area, complete with geography, quests, NPCs, creatures and so on can be cranked out as fast as players can get through them, and that's simply not the case. If that were the case, they wouldn't take 3+ years to develop, considering how players can get through the game, to the level cap in a matter of months these days.

So, yeah... I don't get all bent out of shape over the use of "theme park"... Just depends on how it's used to me -shrug-

 

 

 

Hehe no worries, honestly I should of clarified it wasn't really directed at you. It just ended up becoming a personal tangent to most posters on the site that powergrind though good content, don't read quests, don't get immerest in a storyline, don't socialize and don't make an attempt at creating their own fun along the way - then complain that there isn't enough to do in a game.

Bingo. Spot on. In my opinion of course :). 

 

It was a pet pieve of mine and again I really didn't intend for it to interupt the flow of conversation, I know Mike you're critical of mmo's when you need to be but in a very fair manner. I've always enjoyed your posts in the past and I sincerly didn't mean for my post to offend you if it did. =)

 Ahh no offense taken at all. I was just responding to your post is all with my own thoughts on the whole "themepark" thing.

And thank you for the kind words.

There was something amazing about FFXi, just the taste of it I think. By all means it was the most painful forced group grind i've ever seen with a pay subscription, but damn if everything about it wasn't magical. Little nooks of every town had players bascially LARPing it (rolleyes), markets were crowded, crafting was mysterious (and equally painful to leveling), and I could fish all day on the boat to Selbina/Mhaura. To cut it short, I have full faith in SE to pull of fsome kind of magic here - even though I am sure I will hit a brick wall on some aspect of it.

My only hope is they eschew the hotbars from every game out there now and go with traditional FF menus like #11 even had.