Could MMOs be playable with realistic AI?

If MOBs were made to attack any hostile in sight, I'm picturing in any given area, a zerg of MOBs running around just wtfpwning any single player who passes by until someone much stronger shows up and kills them all, at which point there will be no MOBs in sight. Then the MOBs will gradually start spawning again, either being killed one at a time by people waiting eagerly for them to spawn or (if no players are in sight) amassing into another zerg. I just can't see how true 'kill on sight' AI could work.  

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Originally posted by MIchael-333
Could MMOs be playable with realistic AI?
If MOBs were made to attack any hostile in sight, I'm picturing in any given area, a zerg of MOBs running around just wtfpwning any single player who passes by until someone much stronger shows up and kills them all, at which point there will be no MOBs in sight. Then the MOBs will gradually start spawning again, either being killed one at a time by people waiting eagerly for them to spawn or (if no players are in sight) amassing into another zerg. I just can't see how true 'kill on sight' AI could work.  
 
 

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Less mobs, more exp. Carefully choose your battles dependent on the number in the party.

Originally posted by Tisiphone

 

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Originally posted by MIchael-333
Could MMOs be playable with realistic AI?
If MOBs were made to attack any hostile in sight, I'm picturing in any given area, a zerg of MOBs running around just wtfpwning any single player who passes by until someone much stronger shows up and kills them all, at which point there will be no MOBs in sight. Then the MOBs will gradually start spawning again, either being killed one at a time by people waiting eagerly for them to spawn or (if no players are in sight) amassing into another zerg. I just can't see how true 'kill on sight' AI could work.  
 
 

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Less mobs, more exp. Carefully choose your battles dependent on the number in the party.

Yes, but wouldn't less MOBs plus kill on sight AI quickly become no mobs and waiting in line for spawns?

Originally posted by Death1942

tech:  They need to appeal to a wide range of computers and many simply dont have the processing power to run complex AI...hell some struggle just to load up the game in the first place

I'm pretty sure that the AI would be running server side, as is the abysmal AI they run today even, so no extra taxing on client computers.

Originally posted by tomaswilen

Originally posted by Death1942

tech:  They need to appeal to a wide range of computers and many simply dont have the processing power to run complex AI...hell some struggle just to load up the game in the first place

 

I'm pretty sure that the AI would be running server side, as is the abysmal AI they run today even, so no extra taxing on client computers.

Agreed. Be careful what you say if you don't really know what you're talking about.

Originally posted by Jackio81

and why is it no one seems to notice.

This is a topic I've brought up before in a couple posts I've made but I think it deserves it's own thread.

How is it you never hear any critic or gamer asking questions about the AI in an MMO when it's one of the first questions asked in any other type of game.

Of course you might answer that it's not easy to cram a good AI into an MMO considering how difficult it is to create MMOs in the first place...but still.

Just about every MMO it's the same thing, when you enter an enemy camp, you stand just outside their aggro range even though you're visible in plane site. You pick the straggler that divided from the group and you pull....he runs over and the two of you start taking whacks at each other for a couple seconds..he keels over and dies, you sit down to drink or rest up, and wait to do it again, and you do this throughout the entire game.

Some times you accidently pull more than one and I'd have to run away or simply take them all on while using a  healing potion. There have been times my PC has crashed during this moment, and when I'd log back on I'd notice my character  had taken them all out by using auto attack.

So why is it......?

 

The AI in mmorpgs is processed in the server. The server is loaded with tons and tons of request per second. Anything ina mmorpg that needs to be done fast must be easy. Thats why the AI is so "stupid", it can't be any other way if you want so many people playing at a time.

Edit: If developers could implement a better AI I'm sure they will do it and print this feature in the box: "The best AI seen in any MMORPG". It's just lack of server capability.

why AI is like that? because most of players dont care. they dont seem to notice. shitty AI looks like an obvious thing to have in mmo and thats it.

some people throw all those technical problems around, but cmon. to have great ai you dont neccesarily need to program AI to have thousands of different combinations of various actions and reactions thus stressing server enormously.

all you need to do is throw a few more of those simple actions and reactions.

as OP said we now only have only like 3-5 AI reactions and actions.

he forgot to mention one tho, which is fear, although its a simple reaction which activates when mob is 1/4 hp or something.

if every action stresses the server... why cant they make those 5 or so actions that they can afford stressing their server... more interesting? a damn flaw right there.

anyway i think mobs should just be easier to kill. not neccesarily harmless, but easier to kill. remember good old game diablo 2. there were those shamans in act 3 who spit fire. damn dangerous fellas if you dont think. and thats exactly what mmo lacks - even lil bit of thinking while killing even simplest of mobs. the mentioned shamans would die in seconds if you attack them.

so... why make mobs ahve shitload of hp, shitload of dmg and thus making your life totally boring and miserable, while they could make several dangerous actions a mob naturally can do, but making them quite squishy. not talkin about bosses ofcourse :]

so yeah... developers are lazy enough to have 20 years old AI in their games...

Originally posted by Jackio81

and why is it no one seems to notice.

This is a topic I've brought up before in a couple posts I've made but I think it deserves it's own thread.

How is it you never hear any critic or gamer asking questions about the AI in an MMO when it's one of the first questions asked in any other type of game.

Of course you might answer that it's not easy to cram a good AI into an MMO considering how difficult it is to create MMOs in the first place...but still.

Just about every MMO it's the same thing, when you enter an enemy camp, you stand just outside their aggro range even though you're visible in plane site. You pick the straggler that divided from the group and you pull....he runs over and the two of you start taking whacks at each other for a couple seconds..he keels over and dies, you sit down to drink or rest up, and wait to do it again, and you do this throughout the entire game.

Some times you accidently pull more than one and I'd have to run away or simply take them all on while using a  healing potion. There have been times my PC has crashed during this moment, and when I'd log back on I'd notice my character  had taken them all out by using auto attack.

So why is it......?

 

Put simply, it's because the customers don't put a high value on it. When a new game is in development, we ask about graphics, sys requirements, number of classes, level limit, etc. No one asks about AI.

Most players are dumb, frankly. They don't want smart mobs. Dumb ones are all they can handle.

Sure, I'd love it if mobs activated when they spot a friendly corpse, or used their abilities more appropriately. That stuff does take processing power, but at least in instances should be more than doable. Everything in a PC game is a trade-off. If you want more onscreen, the graphics and AI are going to suffer. If you want smarter mobs, there have to be fewer active at one time.

I hate the range aggro systems used by games like WoW. Fighting one batch of mobs while another is standing about 20 feet away. Idiotic, and it hurts immersion.

Poor AI is the main reason I have gone from PvE to PvP. Instead of PvE raids, I want guilds to own their own dungoens/towers/castles and have raiding them be a large part of end game.

Originally posted by alakram

The AI in mmorpgs is processed in the server. The server is loaded with tons and tons of request per second. Anything ina mmorpg that needs to be done fast must be easy. Thats why the AI is so "stupid", it can't be any other way if you want so many people playing at a time.

 

Edit: If developers could implement a better AI I'm sure they will do it and print this feature in the box: "The best AI seen in any MMORPG". It's just lack of server capability.

Good post, but they could put in better AI, IF they were willing to sacrifice other things. There is no reason instanced areas couldn't offer much better AI right now. It isn`t a priority.

 some game have a desent mob AI , like Daoc where you stay as you write close to a camp and pull mobs without big problems but  if there came a scout  and saw you the whole camp aggro you , thats is 1 way of AI

lots of bosses in diff... game allso have ok AI

i´m not aggre in all you write but if its a fantasy mmo you dont realy need a great AI from mobs

play some single player game if you looking for AI

Originally posted by Delanor

Originally posted by Death1942

tech:  They need to appeal to a wide range of computers and many simply dont have the processing power to run complex AI...hell some struggle just to load up the game in the first place

 

The Chronicles of Spellborn has an interesting AI for its humanoid mobs that does not require a top end computer at all. So I do not believe that processing power is issue here.

I think TCoS has good AI too. Funny that people just ignore you and tell how it can't be done to have better AI. I got a lvl 7 character in Spellborn. When I solo, the AI is pretty much the same, except that different types of enemies have different aggro range.

There's a camp with thieves, and they have a huge aggro range. When you step closer you first see them pick up their weapons. If you step a bit closer, or just stand still attacking they will start attacking you. When teaming up there's another feature that appears. They attack the weakest target. Me and some other player decided to team up to kill a bit more difficult monster. Apparently I was the weaker one, so I got all the hits on me. Luckily my character has slow, and I can speed myself up(Bloodwarrior or something like that). This speed difference made me able to run away so the boss stopped attacking me, because it would never have been able to reach me. We could have kited him forever. My teammate tanked him, and every once in a while I ran in to do one hit, and then run away again. This way I didn't die. If I stayed for a little moment too long it would have turned around to attack me, so I tried to time my appearance when it had its attack on cd.

"Good AI" isn't godly imba über unstoppable AI. Good AI is something you can enjoy.

Originally posted by Vizza

 I think TCoS has good AI too. Funny that people just ignore you and tell how it can't be done to have better AI. I got a lvl 7 character in Spellborn. When I solo, the AI is pretty much the same, except that different types of enemies have different aggro range.

There's a camp with thieves, and they have a huge aggro range. When you step closer you first see them pick up their weapons. If you step a bit closer, or just stand still attacking they will start attacking you. When teaming up there's another feature that appears. They attack the weakest target. Me and some other player decided to team up to kill a bit more difficult monster. Apparently I was the weaker one, so I got all the hits on me. Luckily my character has slow, and I can speed myself up(Bloodwarrior or something like that). This speed difference made me able to run away so the boss stopped attacking me, because it would never have been able to reach me. We could have kited him forever. My teammate tanked him, and every once in a while I ran in to do one hit, and then run away again. This way I didn't die. If I stayed for a little moment too long it would have turned around to attack me, so I tried to time my appearance when it had its attack on cd.

That`s very impressive and something that would make PvE much more appealing to me. I remember seeing a development video about TCoS and mob AI was something they were promoting as a feature.

Too bad the game hasn`t done better.

1. The demand for it is nonexistent, sadly. AI stagnated at about the same level in other genres for a rather long time, until one project pushed the envelope, gained a lot of attention for it, and generated competition.
2. MMO gameplay is much simpler than other genres. How much more complex could the AI become within this framework? It seems to me that the only way player characters behave any more intelligently than non-player characters is in their ability to see more than two meters in front of them.

Originally posted by Saerain

1. The demand for it is nonexistent, sadly. AI stagnated at about the same level in other genres for a rather long time, until one project pushed the envelope, gained a lot of attention for it, and generated competition.
2. MMO gameplay is much simpler than other genres. How much more complex could the AI become within this framework? It seems to me that the only way player characters behave any more intelligently than non-player characters is in their ability to see more than two meters in front of them.

Pretty much, yeah.

If you are in search of intelligence, no mass market entertainment is a good place to look.

There are some damned clever players out there, but they are greatly outnumbered by stoners, drunks, and morons.

Again: AI is weak because they've turned it into a game (the aggro radius game and the threat control game), and games are popular.

The benefits from mobs being particularly smarter just aren't there.  The mobs live to be killed, it's their purpose for existing.

Originally posted by Jackio81

and why is it no one seems to notice.

This is a topic I've brought up before in a couple posts I've made but I think it deserves it's own thread.

How is it you never hear any critic or gamer asking questions about the AI in an MMO when it's one of the first questions asked in any other type of game.

Of course you might answer that it's not easy to cram a good AI into an MMO considering how difficult it is to create MMOs in the first place...but still.

Just about every MMO it's the same thing, when you enter an enemy camp, you stand just outside their aggro range even though you're visible in plane site. You pick the straggler that divided from the group and you pull....he runs over and the two of you start taking whacks at each other for a couple seconds..he keels over and dies, you sit down to drink or rest up, and wait to do it again, and you do this throughout the entire game.

Some times you accidently pull more than one and I'd have to run away or simply take them all on while using a  healing potion. There have been times my PC has crashed during this moment, and when I'd log back on I'd notice my character  had taken them all out by using auto attack.

So why is it......?

 

Have you played FFXI?   Mobs have different abilities to detect players.

- Sound

- Sight

- Smell

- Magic ( If you use magic they will attack you )

- Low Health

However like you stated they still have a certain " range " that must be crossed for them to aggro players.   

Reasons for dumb AIs in MMORPGs?

1) MMORPGs are, as the name suggests, for the masses, trying to appeal to a very large audience. Which means an audience that includes very simple-minded people. So the game is having it's level match to the most simple possible player. If the mobs would start to act in a reasonable way, many people would get confused. They couldn't grind mindlessly as before but actually have to start paying attention. And most people don't want that.

2) Effort. It's not a big deal to create an acceptable AI, but an MMORPG consists of thousands of things that are not a big deal. A weather system is not a big deal either, but most MMORPGs have none or start without it. Or swimming is not a big deal (*coughAIONcough*). Or lots of other things. But they all add up, and the companies don't want to wait until they're finished. So they cut here and there, put a dozen of things on the "to be patched in later" list, and another dozen things on the "will not be implemented" list.

3) Hero-Syndrome. Players want to feel superstrong and heroic. They do not want to get tricked into a trap by a bunch of lowly flea-ridden ratmen or goblins. They want to go in there, hold some down with their foot, smash a dozen with a single swing of their weapon, roast several generations of mobs with a single spell and so on. Players often feel already inferior to other players, so they want to be at least superior to the average mob.

Reading through this thread I have seen many people stating thier many different opinions as fact.

What I get out of this is that no one actually knows why. Sure, you can all keep guessing until the ends of the earth, but that is just it, a guess.

Originally posted by maji

Reasons for dumb AIs in MMORPGs?

 

3) Hero-Syndrome. Players want to feel superstrong and heroic. They do not want to get tricked into a trap by a bunch of lowly flea-ridden ratmen or goblins. They want to go in there, hold some down with their foot, smash a dozen with a single swing of their weapon, roast several generations of mobs with a single spell and so on. Players often feel already inferior to other players, so they want to be at least superior to the average mob.

There's half the problem right there. It's always a "bunch of." You wind up grinding your way through dozens of trash mobs trying to get to that one satisfying encounter that never happens. It's largely because it is an MMO and therefore designed to be a group activity. Or at least an activity playable in groups. The only way to make that work is to add mobs and adjust aggro range to a variety of factors related to group power. You can't have epic mobs one shotting people after all. Games do this with bring all forces coding (poorly) and a very few use group numbers etc. to determine aggro range. Then of course you have to respawn all those mobs for the next group or the current group so they can grind them. It's just not possible to do that and make mob behavior feel natural.

 I would list AI that I liked and why. This would give the MMORPG members an idea where you are coming from. Generally speaking, MMO designers have to appeal to thousands of people at a time. They also depend on a sustained interest (subscription). Single player games can be more intense and focus on your personal experience. You play your God of War for about a month or two. Wait for the next one. 

MMOS need you to play month to month. Check that. They need thousands of you to play month to month at once. If you die too much in God of War, because the AI is too hard, you put the game down. You paid for your box, the company doesn't need you anymore. In MMOs, you put the game down, cancel your subscription. The MMO game loses the financial support to keep it running. So, minions or henchmen are hardwired to behave certain ways and once you learn their habits, you know how to handle them easily.

You know all I'm saying is having a better AI, some of you act like I'm talking about  mobs becoming self aware and deciding to launch missiles at Russia....0o

My friend said he was annoyed about the smarter AI in Guild Wars. He complained that he had to focus on the battle more. I was shocked. He actually wanted the mobs to be stupid. Or rather, he wanted the battles to be easy and formulaic (holy trinity). Needless to say I disagree. I loved that GW has a smarter AI than most MMOs.

I honestly cannot comprehend why people are so fond of the holy trinity and the aggro/hate systems that come with it.

Originally posted by Quirhid

My friend said he was annoyed about the smarter AI in Guild Wars. He complained that he had to focus on the battle more. I was shocked. He actually wanted the mobs to be stupid. Or rather, he wanted the battles to be easy and formulaic (holy trinity). Needless to say I disagree. I loved that GW has a smarter AI than most MMOs.

I honestly cannot comprehend why people are so fond of the holy trinity and the aggro/hate systems that come with it.

I thnk this is going to come down to solo vs team play.

If you like team play, the A.I. doesn't need to be like it is in a single player game.

If you want a solo game with lots of other people wandering around, A.I. more like a single player game makes sense.

The other example of decent A.I. besides solo games are games where there aren't huge differences in skills or classes, like a FPS. Everyone has some sort of machine gun, or laser gun.

Imagine designing a good A.I. that works well with a fighter/tank combo, just a nuke solo, a nuke/cleric combo, a nuke, rogue, fighter combo, and so on.

Hmm I dont think the mob in GW are smarter. The system GW uses for abilites is just ideal for computers - you get a small number of abilities, but they have quite complex results when used. Like: that mob there sneaks mana from you, then uses it to heal itself.

Originally posted by Adamantine

Hmm I dont think the mob in GW are smarter. The system GW uses for abilites is just ideal for computers - you get a small number of abilities, but they have quite complex results when used. Like: that mob there sneaks mana from you, then uses it to heal itself.

Oh but it is. Its not groundbreaking, I know. But its something. They avoid aoe effects, attack the weakest or the most threatening opponent, switch targets when they can't do damage to their initial target, heal each other etc.. In a classic grind based game. Sole mobs just run to you and start hitting until they die or you die. This is usually complemented by an aggro system.