Originally posted by Loke666

Uhm, only if players suck.

But yes, tanking is stupid. Ever seen anyone do that in PvP? Or in a real battle?

Bodyblocking works fine however and it shouldn't be easy to just pass an armored knight to get to the cloth user but the regular MMO system sucks.

Try playing Guildwars, there the mobs are trying to kill the easiest target they have any aggro whatsoever on.

I dislike tanking too. And I hate in combat healing as well. I think its cruel. Poor guy is in the dragon's maw being chewed up, and right before he can finally be released from the pain some jackass brings him back to full consciousness just in time for the jaw to close again and again and again. Healers are assholes.

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by midmagic

Because if they actually put AI, not the complex kiddie scripts FPS use, players would not stand a chance against the NPCs. The entire tank/heal/dps relationship would need some serious altertions to even make the AI worth implementing, primarily tanking mechanics and adding significant defensive abilities to everyone.

Uhm, only if players suck.

But yes, tanking is stupid. Ever seen anyone do that in PvP? Or in a real battle?

Bodyblocking works fine however and it shouldn't be easy to just pass an armored knight to get to the cloth user but the regular MMO system sucks.

Try playing Guildwars, there the mobs are trying to kill the easiest target they have any aggro whatsoever on.

AI, meaning the npcs would be on par to better than a human in playing capabilities not some lame script that most every game uses. AI, implies a learning algorithm. It would learn combos and what to do when those combos fail just like a player. It would learn them much faster (afterall it has a great deal more experience) and be capable of executing them without fail. A server side AI would also have the distinct advantage of no latency. It acts first. It knows exactly where the server says everything is. It has perfect timers for all cooldowns. It could do fun things like autostick to the enemies backside. No, a good AI would be quite difficult for a human to defeat.

Limitations on its abilities would have to be imposed for a human to win, the numbers would have to be quite stacked in favor of the player, or the game complexity would have to go through the roof which means that only a tiny number of humans could beat the AI. Most people have a hard enough time in games with good scripts.

Originally posted by Jackio81

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by Jackio81

and why is it no one seems to notice.

This is a topic I've brought up before in a couple posts I've made but I think it deserves it's own thread.

How is it you never hear any critic or gamer asking questions about the AI in an MMO when it's one of the first questions asked in any other type of game.

Of course you might answer that it's not easy to cram a good AI into an MMO considering how difficult it is to create MMOs in the first place...but still.

Just about every MMO it's the same thing, when you enter an enemy camp, you stand just outside their aggro range even though you're visible in plane site. You pick the straggler that divided from the group and you pull....he runs over and the two of you start taking whacks at each other for a couple seconds..he keels over and dies, you sit down to drink or rest up, and wait to do it again, and you do this throughout the entire game.

Some times you accidently pull more than one and I'd have to run away or simply take them all on while using a  healing potion. There have been times my PC has crashed during this moment, and when I'd log back on I'd notice my character  had taken them all out by using auto attack.

So why is it......?

 

 

Because general AI is one of the most difficult applications known to exist. In fact, its so difficult that no one has to this point managed to create one. There are hints at future applications to come in various sub fields, but at this time the best they can do is make the usual scripted/tiered system. But give the subject some thought. Do most people really *want* to deal with a computer opponent that adapts/learns faster than they do? That NEVER makes the same mistake twice, and is capable of thinking one to three steps ahead of them?  Some may say they are excited by the challenge. But that can get old FAST, when dealing with an intelligence on that order.  Once they do exist, the real trick will be to keep them from winning ALL the time.

Ummm, yes they do....I've already stated in my first original post that it's understandable that MMOs can't handle a better AI. But when it comes to the question of whether or not players want it is pretty obvious, as long as it isn't insanely hard that is.

Outside of MMOs, AI is the number one question asked about all games, and it's what's most in demand, it can make or break a single player game no matter how good the rest of the features are....my astonishment has been how no one ever brings it up when talking about MMOs.

Anyways after reading a couple of your posts, it's sounding like a couple of you are afraid of an MMO with a better AI to begin with....0o

Damn straight I am!...  Afraid isn't quite the word... HORRIFIED is more like it. Why should I pay money to get kicked around by a general AI that learns/adapts faster than I can, has a perfect memory and understanding of strategy and tactics that is beyond even the best human genius?  I suspect you're not understanding what I mean by general AI.  In fact, we are all fortunate that its not been developed yet.

tech:  They need to appeal to a wide range of computers and many simply dont have the processing power to run complex AI...hell some struggle just to load up the game in the first place

Design:  they are stuck in the basic tank and spank style of gameplay and so the AI must be made to suit this...that means little in the way of innovation or changes and it becomes easy to predict the AI

Money: costs quite a bit to get a decent AI programmer and they have to spend time touching up the AI for the game...time = money and if the current release state of games is any indication of how patient the investors/publishers are, i'd say they have 0 time to devote to extra AI stuff

those are the top ones i can think of, i am sure there are many more

Originally posted by Death1942

tech:  They need to appeal to a wide range of computers and many simply dont have the processing power to run complex AI...hell some struggle just to load up the game in the first place

The Chronicles of Spellborn has an interesting AI for its humanoid mobs that does not require a top end computer at all. So I do not believe that processing power is issue here.

Could MMOs be playable with realistic AI?

If MOBs were made to attack any hostile in sight, I'm picturing in any given area, a zerg of MOBs running around just wtfpwning any single player who passes by until someone much stronger shows up and kills them all, at which point there will be no MOBs in sight. Then the MOBs will gradually start spawning again, either being killed one at a time by people waiting eagerly for them to spawn or (if no players are in sight) amassing into another zerg. I just can't see how true 'kill on sight' AI could work.  

---

Originally posted by MIchael-333
Could MMOs be playable with realistic AI?
If MOBs were made to attack any hostile in sight, I'm picturing in any given area, a zerg of MOBs running around just wtfpwning any single player who passes by until someone much stronger shows up and kills them all, at which point there will be no MOBs in sight. Then the MOBs will gradually start spawning again, either being killed one at a time by people waiting eagerly for them to spawn or (if no players are in sight) amassing into another zerg. I just can't see how true 'kill on sight' AI could work.  
 
 

---

Less mobs, more exp. Carefully choose your battles dependent on the number in the party.

Originally posted by Tisiphone

 

---

Originally posted by MIchael-333
Could MMOs be playable with realistic AI?
If MOBs were made to attack any hostile in sight, I'm picturing in any given area, a zerg of MOBs running around just wtfpwning any single player who passes by until someone much stronger shows up and kills them all, at which point there will be no MOBs in sight. Then the MOBs will gradually start spawning again, either being killed one at a time by people waiting eagerly for them to spawn or (if no players are in sight) amassing into another zerg. I just can't see how true 'kill on sight' AI could work.  
 
 

---

 

Less mobs, more exp. Carefully choose your battles dependent on the number in the party.

Yes, but wouldn't less MOBs plus kill on sight AI quickly become no mobs and waiting in line for spawns?

Originally posted by Death1942

tech:  They need to appeal to a wide range of computers and many simply dont have the processing power to run complex AI...hell some struggle just to load up the game in the first place

I'm pretty sure that the AI would be running server side, as is the abysmal AI they run today even, so no extra taxing on client computers.

Originally posted by tomaswilen

Originally posted by Death1942

tech:  They need to appeal to a wide range of computers and many simply dont have the processing power to run complex AI...hell some struggle just to load up the game in the first place

 

I'm pretty sure that the AI would be running server side, as is the abysmal AI they run today even, so no extra taxing on client computers.

Agreed. Be careful what you say if you don't really know what you're talking about.

Originally posted by Jackio81

and why is it no one seems to notice.

This is a topic I've brought up before in a couple posts I've made but I think it deserves it's own thread.

How is it you never hear any critic or gamer asking questions about the AI in an MMO when it's one of the first questions asked in any other type of game.

Of course you might answer that it's not easy to cram a good AI into an MMO considering how difficult it is to create MMOs in the first place...but still.

Just about every MMO it's the same thing, when you enter an enemy camp, you stand just outside their aggro range even though you're visible in plane site. You pick the straggler that divided from the group and you pull....he runs over and the two of you start taking whacks at each other for a couple seconds..he keels over and dies, you sit down to drink or rest up, and wait to do it again, and you do this throughout the entire game.

Some times you accidently pull more than one and I'd have to run away or simply take them all on while using a  healing potion. There have been times my PC has crashed during this moment, and when I'd log back on I'd notice my character  had taken them all out by using auto attack.

So why is it......?

 

The AI in mmorpgs is processed in the server. The server is loaded with tons and tons of request per second. Anything ina mmorpg that needs to be done fast must be easy. Thats why the AI is so "stupid", it can't be any other way if you want so many people playing at a time.

Edit: If developers could implement a better AI I'm sure they will do it and print this feature in the box: "The best AI seen in any MMORPG". It's just lack of server capability.

why AI is like that? because most of players dont care. they dont seem to notice. shitty AI looks like an obvious thing to have in mmo and thats it.

some people throw all those technical problems around, but cmon. to have great ai you dont neccesarily need to program AI to have thousands of different combinations of various actions and reactions thus stressing server enormously.

all you need to do is throw a few more of those simple actions and reactions.

as OP said we now only have only like 3-5 AI reactions and actions.

he forgot to mention one tho, which is fear, although its a simple reaction which activates when mob is 1/4 hp or something.

if every action stresses the server... why cant they make those 5 or so actions that they can afford stressing their server... more interesting? a damn flaw right there.

anyway i think mobs should just be easier to kill. not neccesarily harmless, but easier to kill. remember good old game diablo 2. there were those shamans in act 3 who spit fire. damn dangerous fellas if you dont think. and thats exactly what mmo lacks - even lil bit of thinking while killing even simplest of mobs. the mentioned shamans would die in seconds if you attack them.

so... why make mobs ahve shitload of hp, shitload of dmg and thus making your life totally boring and miserable, while they could make several dangerous actions a mob naturally can do, but making them quite squishy. not talkin about bosses ofcourse :]

so yeah... developers are lazy enough to have 20 years old AI in their games...

Originally posted by Jackio81

and why is it no one seems to notice.

This is a topic I've brought up before in a couple posts I've made but I think it deserves it's own thread.

How is it you never hear any critic or gamer asking questions about the AI in an MMO when it's one of the first questions asked in any other type of game.

Of course you might answer that it's not easy to cram a good AI into an MMO considering how difficult it is to create MMOs in the first place...but still.

Just about every MMO it's the same thing, when you enter an enemy camp, you stand just outside their aggro range even though you're visible in plane site. You pick the straggler that divided from the group and you pull....he runs over and the two of you start taking whacks at each other for a couple seconds..he keels over and dies, you sit down to drink or rest up, and wait to do it again, and you do this throughout the entire game.

Some times you accidently pull more than one and I'd have to run away or simply take them all on while using a  healing potion. There have been times my PC has crashed during this moment, and when I'd log back on I'd notice my character  had taken them all out by using auto attack.

So why is it......?

 

Put simply, it's because the customers don't put a high value on it. When a new game is in development, we ask about graphics, sys requirements, number of classes, level limit, etc. No one asks about AI.

Most players are dumb, frankly. They don't want smart mobs. Dumb ones are all they can handle.

Sure, I'd love it if mobs activated when they spot a friendly corpse, or used their abilities more appropriately. That stuff does take processing power, but at least in instances should be more than doable. Everything in a PC game is a trade-off. If you want more onscreen, the graphics and AI are going to suffer. If you want smarter mobs, there have to be fewer active at one time.

I hate the range aggro systems used by games like WoW. Fighting one batch of mobs while another is standing about 20 feet away. Idiotic, and it hurts immersion.

Poor AI is the main reason I have gone from PvE to PvP. Instead of PvE raids, I want guilds to own their own dungoens/towers/castles and have raiding them be a large part of end game.

Originally posted by alakram

The AI in mmorpgs is processed in the server. The server is loaded with tons and tons of request per second. Anything ina mmorpg that needs to be done fast must be easy. Thats why the AI is so "stupid", it can't be any other way if you want so many people playing at a time.

 

Edit: If developers could implement a better AI I'm sure they will do it and print this feature in the box: "The best AI seen in any MMORPG". It's just lack of server capability.

Good post, but they could put in better AI, IF they were willing to sacrifice other things. There is no reason instanced areas couldn't offer much better AI right now. It isn`t a priority.

 some game have a desent mob AI , like Daoc where you stay as you write close to a camp and pull mobs without big problems but  if there came a scout  and saw you the whole camp aggro you , thats is 1 way of AI

lots of bosses in diff... game allso have ok AI

i´m not aggre in all you write but if its a fantasy mmo you dont realy need a great AI from mobs

play some single player game if you looking for AI

Originally posted by Delanor

Originally posted by Death1942

tech:  They need to appeal to a wide range of computers and many simply dont have the processing power to run complex AI...hell some struggle just to load up the game in the first place

 

The Chronicles of Spellborn has an interesting AI for its humanoid mobs that does not require a top end computer at all. So I do not believe that processing power is issue here.

I think TCoS has good AI too. Funny that people just ignore you and tell how it can't be done to have better AI. I got a lvl 7 character in Spellborn. When I solo, the AI is pretty much the same, except that different types of enemies have different aggro range.

There's a camp with thieves, and they have a huge aggro range. When you step closer you first see them pick up their weapons. If you step a bit closer, or just stand still attacking they will start attacking you. When teaming up there's another feature that appears. They attack the weakest target. Me and some other player decided to team up to kill a bit more difficult monster. Apparently I was the weaker one, so I got all the hits on me. Luckily my character has slow, and I can speed myself up(Bloodwarrior or something like that). This speed difference made me able to run away so the boss stopped attacking me, because it would never have been able to reach me. We could have kited him forever. My teammate tanked him, and every once in a while I ran in to do one hit, and then run away again. This way I didn't die. If I stayed for a little moment too long it would have turned around to attack me, so I tried to time my appearance when it had its attack on cd.

"Good AI" isn't godly imba über unstoppable AI. Good AI is something you can enjoy.

Originally posted by Vizza

 I think TCoS has good AI too. Funny that people just ignore you and tell how it can't be done to have better AI. I got a lvl 7 character in Spellborn. When I solo, the AI is pretty much the same, except that different types of enemies have different aggro range.

There's a camp with thieves, and they have a huge aggro range. When you step closer you first see them pick up their weapons. If you step a bit closer, or just stand still attacking they will start attacking you. When teaming up there's another feature that appears. They attack the weakest target. Me and some other player decided to team up to kill a bit more difficult monster. Apparently I was the weaker one, so I got all the hits on me. Luckily my character has slow, and I can speed myself up(Bloodwarrior or something like that). This speed difference made me able to run away so the boss stopped attacking me, because it would never have been able to reach me. We could have kited him forever. My teammate tanked him, and every once in a while I ran in to do one hit, and then run away again. This way I didn't die. If I stayed for a little moment too long it would have turned around to attack me, so I tried to time my appearance when it had its attack on cd.

That`s very impressive and something that would make PvE much more appealing to me. I remember seeing a development video about TCoS and mob AI was something they were promoting as a feature.

Too bad the game hasn`t done better.

1. The demand for it is nonexistent, sadly. AI stagnated at about the same level in other genres for a rather long time, until one project pushed the envelope, gained a lot of attention for it, and generated competition.
2. MMO gameplay is much simpler than other genres. How much more complex could the AI become within this framework? It seems to me that the only way player characters behave any more intelligently than non-player characters is in their ability to see more than two meters in front of them.

Originally posted by Saerain

1. The demand for it is nonexistent, sadly. AI stagnated at about the same level in other genres for a rather long time, until one project pushed the envelope, gained a lot of attention for it, and generated competition.
2. MMO gameplay is much simpler than other genres. How much more complex could the AI become within this framework? It seems to me that the only way player characters behave any more intelligently than non-player characters is in their ability to see more than two meters in front of them.

Pretty much, yeah.

If you are in search of intelligence, no mass market entertainment is a good place to look.

There are some damned clever players out there, but they are greatly outnumbered by stoners, drunks, and morons.

Again: AI is weak because they've turned it into a game (the aggro radius game and the threat control game), and games are popular.

The benefits from mobs being particularly smarter just aren't there.  The mobs live to be killed, it's their purpose for existing.