Garrett Fuller thinks something has been missing from PvP lately and he may know what it is: the thrill of the hunt.

PvP is a critical part to many MMOs. Last week at AGDC I had the chance to talk to a lot of people about just how important it was. If you read my Jeff Hickman article and saw the chatter about Dark Age of Camelot it got people excited. More importantly I spent time at the Guild Panel with 4 of the top guild leaders in MMOs. Everyone was talking PvP. I wanted to outline something that makes PvP so much fun and has somehow been lacking in MMO lately, that something is The Hunt!

Let’s take Battlegrounds for an example, or any instanced ten vs. ten style game. PvP in this form is fun, but can get repetitive. Players always know the goal, always know the odds and if the group is bad and the opposition is strong, usually they leave to find a better scenario. All that being considered I do enjoy scenario PvP. I like the capture the flag or taking check points type of battles. They have their place and can be fun, but they are usually predictable.

Read it all here.

Before there was WOW, AoC, CoH/V, LOTRO for me there was DFLW, DFBHD. The open Maps for Sniping....I loved them. I liked the hunting that we did. If a MMO can make that type of PVP even I would play it.

I agree with you that the elements of surprise and fun are lacking in repetitive and predictable battles. 

My only comment would be this:  Within the PvP population in any game there are people that want competitive, fresh and exciting PvP just for the fun of it.  But there is also a population of PvPers that use any game's pvp system as a 15 minute reward system and don't care about any particular encounter.  They want their token or their honor points to spend later.

Make both sets of people happy, and leave predictable yet sometimes fun 15 minute PvP mini-game but also provide the free form, hunt you down, FPS style excitement as well.  I bet if we had more options to participate in truly engaging pvp maybe some people would stop their treadmill of token grinding and really participate in PvP again.

Open PvP doesn't sell well. For all of Eve's "greatness", the majority of people NEVER partake in PvP.

For all those hunters out there, there has to be "victims", which this article glosses over. No one wants to be the victim. In a balanced battleground scenario, you know the odds, you know basically its an even fight with skill (hopefully) determining the outcome. Not so in Open PvP. Here, numbers rule the day. 6 Hunters will eat a solo hunter for lunch. But most often, it isn't even a fight, its an escape attempt. Most of the time, the "Victims" will see the hunters and run for their lives, not turning to engage. This type of PvP is boring as hell to me, and to most people. I like *fights* not *ganks*.

This is why PvP in MMORPG's doesn't work for most people outside of carefully controled BG instances.

Aion is already showing the pain and suffering from having to deal with PvP in their system. Having to lock sides and force people to one side so the server doesn't get out of balance. Sad. This is why PvP should be a seperate "add on" to a world, rather than the focus. Balance will never be right (skill based or class based), server numbers will never be even, one side will win more, the other side will switch servers/quit, first side wins even more, second side switches/quits even more, rinse repeat. Even Eve's "no side" based PvP has myriad of issues. Most people choose not to partake, making a vast amount of space (And work) pointless. They keep trying to force people into PvP, and it will never work. The risk vs reward is not there in Eve for most people.

This I can agree with. 

For me arena pvp gets boring very quickly.  With open world pvp it's not just about the fights themselves, it's the entire experience.  It's the constant threat hanging over your head.  It's the sudden, unexpected attacks.  It's running for your life from a fight you have no chance of winning, in which case escaping is a victory of sorts in itself.  The ever present danger and the spontenaity of it makes it so much more interesting.  You never know what you're going to run into.

Originally posted by eric_w66

Open PvP doesn't sell well. For all of Eve's "greatness", the majority of people NEVER partake in PvP.

For all those hunters out there, there has to be "victims", which this article glosses over. No one wants to be the victim. In a balanced battleground scenario, you know the odds, you know basically its an even fight with skill (hopefully) determining the outcome. Not so in Open PvP. Here, numbers rule the day. 6 Hunters will eat a solo hunter for lunch. But most often, it isn't even a fight, its an escape attempt. Most of the time, the "Victims" will see the hunters and run for their lives, not turning to engage. This type of PvP is boring as hell to me, and to most people. I like *fights* not *ganks*.

This is why PvP in MMORPG's doesn't work for most people outside of carefully controled BG instances.

Aion is already showing the pain and suffering from having to deal with PvP in their system. Having to lock sides and force people to one side so the server doesn't get out of balance. Sad. This is why PvP should be a seperate "add on" to a world, rather than the focus. Balance will never be right (skill based or class based), server numbers will never be even, one side will win more, the other side will switch servers/quit, first side wins even more, second side switches/quits even more, rinse repeat. Even Eve's "no side" based PvP has myriad of issues. Most people choose not to partake, making a vast amount of space (And work) pointless. They keep trying to force people into PvP, and it will never work. The risk vs reward is not there in Eve for most people.

Thats because there is no consequences. If the 'wolves" entered into permadeath mode at some point, or at least skill loss on pvp death, it would be something for the role player instead of what we're used to. Developers won't do that though.
 

You nailed it Garret.  These static pvp systems are boring.  You were exactly right about New Frontiers in DAoC.  Open field fights grew rare and most players dropped the melee classes as they were pointless.   Amazing how badly Mythic messed up DAoC.

The best pvp I have had was in UO where I hunted reds with a group. 

While Aion has a more open field pvp, they blew it with only two factions.  That never works.

So again we wait.  I might go back to Eve when Dominion goes in, 0.0 is the playground of the big guys right now.

 Actually, the title should have been A Ganking we will go... Its been my experience that games that allow open PvP end up with much more than their share of ganking and griefing.  Thats one of the reasons so many Asian games do not do all that well in the west.  The "thrill" gets old FAST. Having to always be watching over ones shoulder for gank squads isn't my idea of entertainment. There have been countless attempts at "control" systems to limit ganking/griefing. They have all failed for one reason or another.  It has been demonstrated for years and years now, that games that allow open PvP niche themselves in the west. Thats simply the nature of the demographics.

as a veteran MMOer there are several things that factor into this PVP mess.

one of the first ones is blip location  im MMOs there is no such thing as hiding and ambush,  the game  in its core foundation  has a hidden river  of location data  that is routinly exploited   and what developers have done  to even this advantage  is to simply show everyone on the minimaps   so its impossible to sneek up  or hide in ambush.  In games that do not do this  means that people with a locater addon  will be able to "see" you  while you are not   that is why in  games like first person shooters  you can be hiding in the most out of the way  corner or rooftop  and  its not long before a grenade rolls in seemingly impossible feat.

 MMOs give combaters vary few tools in which to  actually  do things like siege or large scale combat.

you have a keep,, your lucky if the keep even has doors   there is no  siege engines  or crafting engines and ammo,  the battle fields tend to be rather flat  or a single hilltop,,  the keeps are allways rather small,,  since  food and drink are irrelevant  to these games  even the term "siege" is made pointless  as you cant starve out your enemy or any NPCs they have with them,,   also classes cannot be effective especially melee classes because  most combat fire is autofire  so you cant really hide behind a tower shield  and  lastly  there is no mounted combat   no cavlery manuvers   and I rairly see  teleport points within a battle field,, usually as a wizard or hunter there is only a single "port in" point   so this power ability also is useless.

game designers try to simplify combat   giving "no place to hide"  in an effert to speed  up the combat  what this actually does is make for  quick knife fights over and over  basicly gang fights NOT battlefield conflict.

Originally posted by eric_w66

Open PvP doesn't sell well. For all of Eve's "greatness", the majority of people NEVER partake in PvP.

 

I agree with this   EVE could be  a more popular game  but  the FREE for all PVP forces most casual players out  or forces them to stay in "empire space" which is really NOOB space,, even at that   non-pvp corperations are routinly war declared  which means that this corp can be attacked anywhere ant any time  even unarmed haulers and miners,, so all they can do is

1. fight back  basicly giving in to the wants of the agresser  and stop doing how the players  want to enjoy eve.

2.  hunker down in stations for at least a week  basicly doing nothing and hoping that the declaration wont be renewed for another week

3. ignore the declaration, and hope that while your  mining ore or  hauling goods  that your unarmed multi million ISK ship wont be turned into so much glowing smoke  and trust me.. if they can destroy you  they will  just for the hell of it.

4. leace the corp  and go "generic"  which is really to say going solo  not much fun.

5. get fustrated enough to cancel your EVE subscription  and wait for a game that is more casual player friendly  which right now is looking like star trek online  and trust me  there are masses of EVE refugees that are CASUAL players that EVE has driven AWAY.

and since the EVE developers are all about hard core PVP  and have been shifting the game in an attempt to FORCE pvp   such things as making choke points  and  starving empire space of content  it is a very boring and bleak universe for casual players

*******

Players for the most part want to be able to choose when they expose themselve to PVP if there wanting to spend a lazy day fishing or farming  they dont want some  warmonger to come and interupt their version of fun.

it would also be nice that when casual players actually do try to test the waters with a little PVP that they have a chance to live long enough to at least enjoy being a meat puppet (getting pwned in 5 seconds all the time is a very good way to get people to NOT PVP.)

Originally posted by Samatman

I agree with you that the elements of surprise and fun are lacking in repetitive and predictable battles. 

My only comment would be this:  Within the PvP population in any game there are people that want competitive, fresh and exciting PvP just for the fun of it.  But there is also a population of PvPers that use any game's pvp system as a 15 minute reward system and don't care about any particular encounter.  They want their token or their honor points to spend later.

Make both sets of people happy, and leave predictable yet sometimes fun 15 minute PvP mini-game but also provide the free form, hunt you down, FPS style excitement as well.  I bet if we had more options to participate in truly engaging pvp maybe some people would stop their treadmill of token grinding and really participate in PvP again.

  that'sexactly what warhammer did and look how that turned out...

Although i did hear that at the higher tiers and when the game had a big population that there was plenty of fighting over the open world stuff as well as loads of scenario's popping every few minutes.

I think you have a valid point about providing for both sets of players but there definitely needs to be vastly different rewards/reasons to participate in them otherwise one will always dominate the other (there is almost 0 open world PvP in WAR now as you can get more from scenarios)

Originally posted by brenth

Originally posted by eric_w66

Open PvP doesn't sell well. For all of Eve's "greatness", the majority of people NEVER partake in PvP.

 

 

I agree with this   EVE could be  a more popular game  but  the FREE for all PVP forces most casual players out  or forces them to stay in "empire space" which is really NOOB space

lol is that why the majority of players live in empire then in 0.0? Where do you guys get these outlooks?
 

Originally posted by tvalentine

Originally posted by brenth

Originally posted by eric_w66

Open PvP doesn't sell well. For all of Eve's "greatness", the majority of people NEVER partake in PvP.

 

 

I agree with this   EVE could be  a more popular game  but  the FREE for all PVP forces most casual players out  or forces them to stay in "empire space" which is really NOOB space

lol is that why the majority of players live in empire then in 0.0? Where do you guys get these outlooks?
 

Its a WELL known fact that drives CCP up the wall. 2/3's or more of their player base seldom if ever leaves high sec.  I'm coming up on four years myself. I've never been out of high sec, and I'm still in SWA(npc corp).

Looks like Garrett never played ShadowBane.

it was all about "the hunt".

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by tvalentine

Originally posted by brenth

Originally posted by eric_w66

Open PvP doesn't sell well. For all of Eve's "greatness", the majority of people NEVER partake in PvP.

 

 

I agree with this   EVE could be  a more popular game  but  the FREE for all PVP forces most casual players out  or forces them to stay in "empire space" which is really NOOB space

lol is that why the majority of players live in empire then in 0.0? Where do you guys get these outlooks?
 

 

Its a WELL known fact that drives CCP up the wall. 2/3's or more of their player base seldom if ever leaves high sec.  I'm coming up on four years myself. I've never been out of high sec, and I'm still in SWA(npc corp).

lol i can see why. But tbh i dont think its the risk that keeps people out of 0.0, its the most boring place in eve to live imo. I've made a few roams through and couldnt find anything to do. Like i said in another thread, i could find more action in lowsec/empire. TBH i dont think its a bad thing that players never leave empire space, as long as they get some sort of pvp interaction if its shooting other ships or if its pvping in the market. Just to get a feel of the risk involved and some cases adrenaline. I find it hard to believe that people who havent experienced some sort of risk or pvp in eve will play the game for more then a year.

I like this article I think you made a very good point.

The Best PvP I ever had was in UO, it was open and it was a hunt, for both sides, one hunting the other, hunting the enemy, This is not about Hunter and Victim, it is about Hunting the enemy, while the enemy is hunting you, that is the basic thrill of PvP. There is no victims in FPS games, both sides are Hunters.

Uo had something else, it had variety of both geographical area but also motivations behind the Hunt, this is something that EVE has as well, the downside EVE has with its PvP system is that it has no Tactics, it is all Strategic.

Players prepare for PvP before the Battle and usually the player or side that has better preparations will win the fight (exceptions always exist but these are not the norm).

That s one of the features that turns me off EVE PvP, there is nothing you can do as a player to turn the tables if you are not prepared in advance, no tactical prowess, no feats of personal skill hand eye coordination or some type of maneuver, no ace up your sleeve in terms of unpredictability...no Tactics it is all about Strategical preparation and in line to the Commerce In Space main and core theme of EvE.

Originally posted by tvalentine

lol i can see why. But tbh i dont think its the risk that keeps people out of 0.0, its the most boring place in eve to live imo. I've made a few roams through and couldnt find anything to do. Like i said in another thread, i could find more action in lowsec/empire. TBH i dont think its a bad thing that players never leave empire space, as long as they get some sort of pvp interaction if its shooting other ships or if its pvping in the market. Just to get a feel of the risk involved and some cases adrenaline. I find it hard to believe that people who havent experienced some sort of risk or pvp in eve will play the game for more then a year.

It's risk vs reward that keeps people out of the pvp areas in Eve. People think I'm a carebear because I don't like to risk my expensive ship on a mission that might pay me 1/100th of the value of my ship in low sec. While the chances are small that I will die to a gang of griefers, they are greater than the reward of that mission. THAT is the problem. Same goes with mining, trade runs, etc.

In WW2 Online (where I get my PvP in  MMO's, its a game designed for PvP and only has PvP, no PvE balance to worry about, it has enough PvP balance issues to worry about), I've got about 38,000 kills in my lifetime... So I do PLENTY of PvP ;) just not in games that do it poorly (read ever MMORPG out there).

I agree with the article in the sense than the pvp like in war with keep and in scenarios lack a little bit of surprise and than it is what makes the fps exciting but the problem is than you cant bring totally that from fps to mmos cause in fps being in numeric inferiority isnt an important factor if you are sneaky.

In fps I dont care about going to enemy base cause I know than with 3 shots I can kill each enemy and i can handle several foes but in mmos even if i surprise enemies with ambushes its unlikely to be able to kill all them,if i am skilled i can kill few so this makes it less interesting.

My experience in pvp outdoor in wow when there is a difference of two ppl over other group the skill matters and is exciting but usually this experience lasts very few cause ppl dont accept the defeat and call lvl 80 nearby to help them or they bring their main 80 lvl chars to gank you so I think you cant make a complete game based on this expecting than everyone will join it since everyone knows than is gonna finish the match in being ganked or being unable to handle foes when in numeric inferiority and also it lacks of long term rewards than is something than makes fights even when you are gonna being wiped something interesting and meaningful

It's obvious the OP doesn't play DAoC anymore and probably hasn't for years as the game he describes bears no resemblance to the game i have played for the last 8 years and continue to enjoy immensely. He mentions tanks being useless in static rvr, which is crap as tanks can climb walls now, get up on the battlements and clear the oil spots. Also tanks and melee are ESSENTIAL in rvr, they are anti-casters and anti-melee, banelords can destroy casters at close range, battlemasters protect healers and mages as a counter. Even for static fort defence/attack you NEED these melee classes, without them you have a much higher chance of losing, pure and simple.

NF was a massive hit to the game, but when were talking about hunting, there simply is no better mmorpg around and NF is far better than OF for this. Of funnelled everyong into milegate choke points, with NF you can roam wherever you want.

Mythic introduced massive xp bonuses for players levelling in the frontiers, this high reward carries high risk and i as an assassin I hunt them relentlessly. Sometimes it's 8-man pl groups, sometimes just a guy and his bot, but I hunt and often am hunted in return.

Often i'll take out a few players in the better xp areas and then wind up with anything from 1 to 20 players come out looking for me, it's exhilerating and huge fun getting my kills and at the same time avoiding those who would put an end to my fun. Sometimes it goes wrong and someone has laid a trap which i have fallen for and i lose, or i miscalculate how tough the player im attacking is, but it's all immense fun.

Many times we run visible guild groups and we also go hunting away from the main rvr choke points, we get many great fights and as none of it is static, it's always different and often situation dictates who wins.

You ask for hunting in pvp, DAoC is still the king of this type of pvp, long live the king.
 

Originally posted by Airphel

Looks like Garrett never played ShadowBane.

 

it was all about "the hunt".

Yup. Not only had they solved the basics of the open field equation they actually had a sieging system where every class could be useful. The addition of mines added a fixed point in the open field capability. The game had numerous problems but lack of ways to PvP wasn't one of them. 

Personally I think RvR is a bust. People should choose who their enemies are not have the choice forced on them.

Nice review of the doldrums PvP seems to have gottern itself into.

For me RvR is the way to go, but that does mean this cannot be implemented in a more open manner. Good PvP systems often fall down when new content is added to MMO's. That which is new is not always better so don't change or replace until you are sure.

Originally posted by Wraithone

 Actually, the title should have been A Ganking we will go... Its been my experience that games that allow open PvP end up with much more than their share of ganking and griefing.  Thats one of the reasons so many Asian games do not do all that well in the west.  The "thrill" gets old FAST. Having to always be watching over ones shoulder for gank squads isn't my idea of entertainment. There have been countless attempts at "control" systems to limit ganking/griefing. They have all failed for one reason or another.  It has been demonstrated for years and years now, that games that allow open PvP niche themselves in the west. Thats simply the nature of the demographics.

This is why i hate Player Vs Player. You damn PvP tard only see the good. Meanwhile those of us with NO interest in PVP (outside of putting a bullet through the brain of gankers in REAL Player Vs Player) have to hear about changes to PvE because of PvP, gankers in open pvp who spend their time hunting lowbies (or merchants) and so on. I wish PvPers would look outside their little bubble of "this isn't fun for me" and think of the other oeople they share the server with.

Originally posted by eric_w66

Originally posted by tvalentine

lol i can see why. But tbh i dont think its the risk that keeps people out of 0.0, its the most boring place in eve to live imo. I've made a few roams through and couldnt find anything to do. Like i said in another thread, i could find more action in lowsec/empire. TBH i dont think its a bad thing that players never leave empire space, as long as they get some sort of pvp interaction if its shooting other ships or if its pvping in the market. Just to get a feel of the risk involved and some cases adrenaline. I find it hard to believe that people who havent experienced some sort of risk or pvp in eve will play the game for more then a year.

  While the chances are small that I will die to a gang of griefers, they are greater than the reward of that mission. THAT is the problem. Same goes with mining, trade runs, etc.

people still mine and mission in lowsec/0.0 .... i dunno what point you're trying to make.

heres an idea ..... use a cheaper ship to run dangerous missions ..... That way, you make more money, and if you lose a ship you dont lose that super expensive faction fit mission runner your flying. And you are a carebear, it aint a bad thing, its just what you are. Never leaving high sec or a npc corp, to me sounds boring and not worth my 15$. But everyone has different tastes.

Originally posted by tvalentine

Originally posted by eric_w66

Originally posted by tvalentine

lol i can see why. But tbh i dont think its the risk that keeps people out of 0.0, its the most boring place in eve to live imo. I've made a few roams through and couldnt find anything to do. Like i said in another thread, i could find more action in lowsec/empire. TBH i dont think its a bad thing that players never leave empire space, as long as they get some sort of pvp interaction if its shooting other ships or if its pvping in the market. Just to get a feel of the risk involved and some cases adrenaline. I find it hard to believe that people who havent experienced some sort of risk or pvp in eve will play the game for more then a year.

  While the chances are small that I will die to a gang of griefers, they are greater than the reward of that mission. THAT is the problem. Same goes with mining, trade runs, etc.

people still mine and mission in lowsec/0.0 .... i dunno what point you're trying to make.

 

heres an idea ..... use a cheaper ship to run dangerous missions ..... That way, you make more money, and if you lose a ship you dont lose that super expensive faction fit mission runner your flying. And you are a carebear, it aint a bad thing, its just what you are. Never leaving high sec or a npc corp, to me sounds boring and not worth my 15$. But everyone has different tastes.

"A cheaper ship". Ok, a cheaper ship to run level 4's... a drake? Ok... fit it with even normal weapons and ammo, but you can't skimp too much on the "tank" as it can get nasty in some level 4's... that's still a 60 or 70 million isk ship. Die even once, and you just lost 10+ missions, and the *time* it took to do them.

BTW, guess what I use on my level 4's... a drake... All tech 2 though, so it costs far more than the cheapy version. I don't bother with faction ships outside of my firetail which is just fun to fly around in to help newbies with missions.

As for people running missions in low sec/zero sec, sure, there's corps out there. That have to pay taxes... I make as much or more than a miner in zero sec per hour. Why would I want to risk my hulk and orca to some tard who thinks blowing up defenseless ships is fun?

Originally posted by eric_w66

Originally posted by tvalentine

Originally posted by eric_w66

Originally posted by tvalentine

lol i can see why. But tbh i dont think its the risk that keeps people out of 0.0, its the most boring place in eve to live imo. I've made a few roams through and couldnt find anything to do. Like i said in another thread, i could find more action in lowsec/empire. TBH i dont think its a bad thing that players never leave empire space, as long as they get some sort of pvp interaction if its shooting other ships or if its pvping in the market. Just to get a feel of the risk involved and some cases adrenaline. I find it hard to believe that people who havent experienced some sort of risk or pvp in eve will play the game for more then a year.

  While the chances are small that I will die to a gang of griefers, they are greater than the reward of that mission. THAT is the problem. Same goes with mining, trade runs, etc.

people still mine and mission in lowsec/0.0 .... i dunno what point you're trying to make.

 

heres an idea ..... use a cheaper ship to run dangerous missions ..... That way, you make more money, and if you lose a ship you dont lose that super expensive faction fit mission runner your flying. And you are a carebear, it aint a bad thing, its just what you are. Never leaving high sec or a npc corp, to me sounds boring and not worth my 15$. But everyone has different tastes.

 

"A cheaper ship". Ok, a cheaper ship to run level 4's... a drake? Ok... fit it with even normal weapons and ammo, but you can't skimp too much on the "tank" as it can get nasty in some level 4's... that's still a 60 or 70 million isk ship. Die even once, and you just lost 10+ missions, and the *time* it took to do them.

BTW, guess what I use on my level 4's... a drake... All tech 2 though, so it costs far more than the cheapy version. I don't bother with faction ships outside of my firetail which is just fun to fly around in to help newbies with missions.

As for people running missions in low sec/zero sec, sure, there's corps out there. That have to pay taxes... I make as much or more than a miner in zero sec per hour. Why would I want to risk my hulk and orca to some tard who thinks blowing up defenseless ships is fun?

sorry i assumed you were flying a much more expensive ship since you said: "I don't like to risk my expensive ship on a mission that might pay me 1/100th of the value of my ship in low sec."

I thought you were in like a raven or something. And how do you know you make more money then miners in 0.0? Do you make more then people who run in fleets of hulks, orcas and rorquals? The kind of ops that will mine out every single asteroid in a belt? You wont know whats out there if you don't go and experience it. Your opinions all seemed to be based off forum stories of people getting ganked for making stupid mistakes. You can mission in lowsec if you wanted and never lose a ship, it isn't hard to watch the scanner for pirates. But you wouldn't know that because from the looks of it you haven't really tried it.