www.gamespot.com/news/6228707.html

It seems BioWare understand Solo players, but would also like to encourage (not force) them into grouping.

They dont understand in my opinion. Seems they will make the same mistake, and have the same problems as the other MMO's. Hard to tell. Seems like they still havent figured out what makes Warcraft go, and are just using statistics and ROI to design the game. That's never been done before huh?

There should most definately be things to do by yourself. And you should be able to progress by yourself. But if you're alone..

Does anyone who plays WOW feel alone? Does Blizzard have anything to do with that, or is the playerbase the ones deserving credit? Blizzard just didnt interfere? We'll see i guess.

Originally posted by greed0104

www.gamespot.com/news/6228707.html

It seems BioWare understand Solo players, but would also like to encourage (not force) them into grouping.

Which is exactly how it should be. So long as I'm not forced to group to enjoy the game I'll be happy. From what I've seen, nothing will stop the groupers from enjoying the game their way. Everyone with the exception of the "everything should be my way or nothing" crowd should be happy.

lol remember in SWG in the CU when people bitched about forced groups for XP? People either complain about it, or love it.

As long as grouping has a point, yet you don't have to group to advance your char then I see no problem. Pre-cu was like that, you just didn't need a group to advance, though it made it more fun. So hopefully any SWG vets who say it's just another solo play linear game realize pre-cu SWG was also a solo play game. And just because a game starts linear, doesn't mean it has to stay linear. Look at Aion, it starts out linear, then opens up to more later with linear and nonlinear things to do. I kinda think SWTOR will be the same as well. I see a new trend appearing.

Im just saying in the end, players define how the game is played. If its all the same, solo or grouping..the players will determine which will be used.

No idea how theyre making this game, just going off articles and little info. Hopefully it will work out differently.

Something very important

"Schubert specified that it is "unacceptable" to make an MMO game today that doesn't have "significant chunk of gameplay" accessible to the solo player. He didn't suggest that everything be accessible to those playing alone, just that there needs to be something for all the different types of solitary gamers. "

Basically, they plan to cater to solo players in a way that they can progress, but not enough that they match the group players progression. I like this, this is how it should be.  

The only thing I'm hoping for is that the absolute seriousness is left at the door. If you have no clue what I'm talking about, I'm talking about the players that turn a game into a chore, the ones that will kick new players from groups because they didn't have an understanding of certain boss fights or mechanics. I kinda feel this is part of the reason so much solo play is being added to  MMOs. I know quite a few people that refuse to group because of the attitude a lot of modern group players seem to have. I really can't blame the developers. They are only responsible for what goes into the game, not how it is used. So all that is left is the players. They are responsible for how it is used. So I agree Fikus, players define how a game is played, in more then one way.

I'm not speaking for myself, I'm speaking for the many people I have seen dropped from a group because they didn't meet the DPS requirement, couldn't afford buff food, Potions, didn't understand a fight the first time they tried it. All of this might not apply to this game, but I'm more then sure there will be some things people expect of you right from the get go.

But getting an entire community to change attitude is impossible. So I lay group play in the hands of the community, patience and understand is something that is missing. Hopefully it will come back around again.

People will complain no matter what is done.  I don't play an MMO to solo the entire game, or even most of it.  I want to group.  I want to be able to do group quests, and solo quests in a group if I want.

What I don't want is to halt all progression waiting to get a group for something to be able to move on in the game.

Originally posted by greed0104

Something very important

"Schubert specified that it is "unacceptable" to make an MMO game today that doesn't have "significant chunk of gameplay" accessible to the solo player. He didn't suggest that everything be accessible to those playing alone, just that there needs to be something for all the different types of solitary gamers. "

Basically, they plan to cater to solo players in a way that they can progress, but not enough that they match the group players progression. I like this, this is how it should be.  

The only thing I'm hoping for is that the absolute seriousness is left at the door. If you have no clue what I'm talking about, I'm talking about the players that turn a game into a chore, the ones that will kick new players from groups because they didn't have an understanding of certain boss fights or mechanics. I kinda feel this is part of the reason so much solo play is being added to  MMOs. I know quite a few people that refuse to group because of the attitude a lot of modern group players seem to have. I really can't blame the developers. They are only responsible for what goes into the game, not how it is used. So all that is left is the players. They are responsible for how it is used. So I agree Fikus, players define how a game is played, in more then one way.

I'm not speaking for myself, I'm speaking for the many people I have seen dropped from a group because they didn't meet the DPS requirement, couldn't afford buff food, Potions, didn't understand a fight the first time they tried it. All of this might not apply to this game, but I'm more then sure there will be some things people expect of you right from the get go.

But getting an entire community to change attitude is impossible. So I lay group play in the hands of the community, patience and understand is something that is missing. Hopefully it will come back around again.

 The developers can play a huge role in influencing how the game will be played. But ya, in the end, players will determine it. All devs can do is decide who those players are, and influence them. And make sure thier game keeps those people satisfied.

I also tend to think that talking about the solo "player" as a group your targeting, leads to a banner that people will unite under to demand dev attention. It would be better to say you'll always have something to do. You wont have to sit and wait for other players. Catering to both groups (solo and groupers) always leads to waiting in my opinion. Now if thats what they want so people will log off...thats fine. Clearly it's in the devs best interest cost wise. But, I would rather they just say that. But it also leads to fighting and keeping people away.

Obviously I have no idea what they're making. It could be the best thing ever. Just my concerns from so much focus being given to solo play. Probably because it's KOTOR. So we'll see how it works out. It's way too early to tell. They need to be careful who it is defining how the game is played from my own experiences. From what they're saying in articles, sounds like the same mistake being made. Without info on the game, I could be totally wrong here. Im not a group or nothing person either. I think solo play is manditory too, but for different reasons, and done differently for each specific game.

I think there is a few reasons they dedicated an entire article to Solo players. Lately it's been being talked about, a lot. Groupers are asking Solo players why they play MMOs, and Solo player are asking them why it matters. Seen this discusion pop up here a few times to, maybe not this board, but it's around. Another reason is securing the KoTOR players, the ones that never played an MMO. Perhaps BioWare thinks this is another way to appeal to them, maybe they feel acknowledged in some way, same could be said for those that do play MMOs and only solo. These are only reasons I can think of, I don't know what the intent was, really. Just seems when discussions get out of hand BioWare finally drops the answer. Like people saying "this game will be  fully instanced", about a week later BioWare said it will be open world. So much secrecy at BioWare.

Ya, and like I said, they may have this all figured out  and it wont be the usual problems. But they have officially labeled the solo player is part of their desired audience. I just dont "personally" like it becuase those labels are used agaisnt the devs later on for their attention. Mistakes are made then usually.  People come in the game in a certain state of mind as well. The arguements you say you've seen already show that. Probably no big deal. This may be exactly what they want.  

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

They dont understand in my opinion. Seems they will make the same mistake, and have the same problems as the other MMO's. Hard to tell. Seems like they still havent figured out what makes Warcraft go, and are just using statistics and ROI to design the game. That's never been done before huh?

There should most definately be things to do by yourself. And you should be able to progress by yourself. But if you're alone..

Does anyone who plays WOW feel alone? Does Blizzard have anything to do with that, or is the playerbase the ones deserving credit? Blizzard just didnt interfere? We'll see i guess.

 

Haha yea, WoW is definitely a lonely game, at least when leveling up. It becomes a lot more group oriented at max level.

Originally posted by darkboarder8

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

They dont understand in my opinion. Seems they will make the same mistake, and have the same problems as the other MMO's. Hard to tell. Seems like they still havent figured out what makes Warcraft go, and are just using statistics and ROI to design the game. That's never been done before huh?

There should most definately be things to do by yourself. And you should be able to progress by yourself. But if you're alone..

Does anyone who plays WOW feel alone? Does Blizzard have anything to do with that, or is the playerbase the ones deserving credit? Blizzard just didnt interfere? We'll see i guess.

 

 

Haha yea, WoW is definitely a lonely game, at least when leveling up. It becomes a lot more group oriented at max level.

Then things have changed. I wasnt talking about grouping either. Everyone soloed obviously.

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

Ya, and like I said, they may have this all figured out  and it wont be the usual problems. But they have officially labeled the solo player is part of their desired audience. I just dont "personally" like it becuase those labels are used agaisnt the devs later on for their attention. Mistakes are made then usually.  People come in the game in a certain state of mind as well. The arguements you say you've seen already show that. Probably no big deal. This may be exactly what they want.  

I agree.

Nothing more to do now, then to sit, watch and wait.

Originally posted by darkboarder8

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

They dont understand in my opinion. Seems they will make the same mistake, and have the same problems as the other MMO's. Hard to tell. Seems like they still havent figured out what makes Warcraft go, and are just using statistics and ROI to design the game. That's never been done before huh?

There should most definately be things to do by yourself. And you should be able to progress by yourself. But if you're alone..

Does anyone who plays WOW feel alone? Does Blizzard have anything to do with that, or is the playerbase the ones deserving credit? Blizzard just didnt interfere? We'll see i guess.

 

 

Haha yea, WoW is definitely a lonely game, at least when leveling up. It becomes a lot more group oriented at max level.

But isnt the solo player in MMO,s also the same arguement for making games to casual, now for those that only read this far, your going to get the wrong meaning of what I just said.

People want to be able to play MMO,s but there comes a point, a tipping point of age as it were when you cant do the all nighters you once did etc etc, this has been expressed often so not going to labour it, but alot of the more vocal people on this subject are I would suspect not at that tipping point yet, nor understand what it entails, I know i didnt fully when growing up.

 Now you then have an issue with time investment , so looking for groups and progress become factors, and long drawn out instance raids become less attractive.

So you have finished work, had dinner, put kids to bed, its now what 8 pm so your have 2 odd hours or so, in an mmo that person might get a group or will end up solo, its kinda 50/50, so you cant alienate that group as its a chunk of the MMO player base, but you then have the trap of making everything very casual up to end game, or putting in didicated solo content.....

I would prefer a game with proper solo content, rather than just making everything simple, a game with options, of choices, you got the time go group up and do that big group quest chain, you aint got the time do the fed ex and help quests solo.

That however is my opinion based on my subjective view, how ive ended up playing MMO,s and managing my time, becasue I have to manage my time wether I like it or not.

Unless solo players can continue to gain progression for their charcters at end game, it isn't a solo freindly MMO.

Honestly I think this article bodes very badly for this game...

Catering for the player than wants it all their way and solo in my opinion is not the way to go...in the end there are countless better solo play games you can play and do that already...MMOs to really push the barriers of enterainment furtherneed to be about socialising..much like all the other current internet fads out there..

The problem solo content gives..

its generally very easy to ensure most people can complete it..casual to whoever..this means that it creates a near worthless progression in the end..consider examples as AoC..etc of late..high on solo content..so being a lvl cap character is totally meaingless anyway..

you cannot develop a long term solo content game...it can only be casual orientated..for the simple reason you cant develip a new zone as fast as even a lame duck can complete it....so either you want very repetitive solo content in your MMO or a very short shallow experience if you want a solo friendly game..

MMO for me are all about socialising..i cant believe this artcile tries to compare an MMO to casinos and so on..in the end a casino is more like games in general..some like slot machines..some like the social experience games instead..and MMOS werre meant to cater for that..

it worries me the casino example also because they seem to be saying as slot machine give us the most cash we going for those people..suggesting as we know the games made for profit but the way they do this will be...mass hyped early sales..at the cost of possibly long term loyal minority fans..the bane of every MMO in recent memory. 

A very good article.  We don't see how the actually work with those issues, but most companies don't even admit them. So it is good to see they are aware and thinking on such levels.

 From what I've read I think Bioware fully understand the solo player, as well as the players that love to group.  There are many different kinds of solo players,  and what interested me is that they are putting together what sounds like a very scalable game that doesn't focus on a single playstyle but moreso it has something for everyone. 

We have yet to actually see all the content and how the missions scale,  but they've said their design is to make the players always feel challenged nomatter the size of the group.  

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

They dont understand in my opinion. Seems they will make the same mistake, and have the same problems as the other MMO's. Hard to tell. Seems like they still havent figured out what makes Warcraft go, and are just using statistics and ROI to design the game. That's never been done before huh?

There should most definately be things to do by yourself. And you should be able to progress by yourself. But if you're alone..

Does anyone who plays WOW feel alone? Does Blizzard have anything to do with that, or is the playerbase the ones deserving credit? Blizzard just didnt interfere? We'll see i guess.

 

No, I 

think its you that don't  understand. Most people solo most of the time. Whether some people think that or not. Why? 

Because they prefer it. I 

skip most of the group quests in EQ2. Why? Because I don't like to have to rely on grouping. As a soloist, I 

can go when and where I 

feel like. Groups are an aggravating hinderance. I don't mind belonging to a guild, or helping to decorate the guild hall, and I always have my guild chat open. But I avoid grouping so that I can avoid the crap that goes with it.

And from what I'm understanding from others, most people feel the same way. Grouping is too restrictive.

Bioware hit the nail on the head.

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

Originally posted by greed0104

Something very important

"Schubert specified that it is "unacceptable" to make an MMO game today that doesn't have "significant chunk of gameplay" accessible to the solo player. He didn't suggest that everything be accessible to those playing alone, just that there needs to be something for all the different types of solitary gamers. "

Basically, they plan to cater to solo players in a way that they can progress, but not enough that they match the group players progression. I like this, this is how it should be.  

The only thing I'm hoping for is that the absolute seriousness is left at the door. If you have no clue what I'm talking about, I'm talking about the players that turn a game into a chore, the ones that will kick new players from groups because they didn't have an understanding of certain boss fights or mechanics. I kinda feel this is part of the reason so much solo play is being added to  MMOs. I know quite a few people that refuse to group because of the attitude a lot of modern group players seem to have. I really can't blame the developers. They are only responsible for what goes into the game, not how it is used. So all that is left is the players. They are responsible for how it is used. So I agree Fikus, players define how a game is played, in more then one way.

I'm not speaking for myself, I'm speaking for the many people I have seen dropped from a group because they didn't meet the DPS requirement, couldn't afford buff food, Potions, didn't understand a fight the first time they tried it. All of this might not apply to this game, but I'm more then sure there will be some things people expect of you right from the get go.

But getting an entire community to change attitude is impossible. So I lay group play in the hands of the community, patience and understand is something that is missing. 

 

 The developers can play a huge role in influencing how the game will be played. But ya, in the end, players will determine it. All devs can do is decide who those players are, and influence them. And make sure thier game keeps those people satisfied.

I also tend to think that talking about the solo "player" as a group your targeting, leads to a banner that people will unite under to demand dev attention. It would be better to say you'll always have something to do. You wont have to sit and wait for other players. Catering to both groups (solo and groupers) always leads to waiting in my opinion. Now if thats what they want so people will log off...thats fine. Clearly it's in the devs best interest cost wise. But, I would rather they just say that. But it also leads to fighting and keeping people away.

Obviously I have no idea what they're making. It could be the best thing ever. Just my concerns from so much focus being given to solo play. Probably because it's KOTOR. So we'll see how it works out. It's way too early to tell. They need to be careful who it is defining how the game is played from my own experiences. From what they're saying in articles, sounds like the same mistake being made. Without info on the game, I could be totally wrong here. Im not a group or nothing person either. I think solo play is manditory too, but for different reasons, and done differently for each specific game.

Most people know my opinion on the matter of solo vs. group in that there isn't one... at least NOT with TOR. They are effectively managing the division by allowing solo players to take on companions (NPC) while groupies enjoy their own slice of the pie.

And I disagree with anyone who says that the players will inevitably determine the outcome of the gameplay. BioWare and it's affiliates have--- as they will continue--- taken their time in making sure that everything that occurs within the TOR universe is craved by both parties. Everything everyone is worrying about right now has probably been considered during the adaptation thus far. While you are at liberty to voice your own opinion, they have it under control; it being the "best thing ever", as it WILL be.

You're right to say that it's too early to tell, but only whether YOU will like it or not. I haven't even began to play the game and I can say that I'll love it. It's a bold statement, but it's BioWare we're talking about here, and they're working from their greatest game. Also, they don't speak Fail. It is a language and culture they pay 0 attention to. [NOTE: I'm never wrong about these things. I called DDO AND AOC doomed before they were released; look where they are now. And I really looked forward to both of them still.]

I'll even go as far as to say that similar issues will be met by Aion in the near future. They will retain a devoted number, and the rest will move on to other MMOs. Star Trek will be met by their own demographic; no more, no less. Fallen Earth... eh. While I wish the super-realistic concept would take hold, I still think they should do something about their crafting times and the way you get around.

 And finally, there was WoW. I had the chance to enjoy the beta of this game, so it's not fair to pass my criticism about it, but I will say that I knew, based on the UI alone, that it was going to be a tough cookie to crumble. Sadly, I didn't think Blizz would go on to disappoint their REAL fans by making this an all-too-casual atmosphere. But while I realize that one of my favorite devs has become my worst enemies, I refuse to believe that BW would do something even REMOTELY similar. So, SWTOR=Greatest MMO EVER!!!

This will be a breath of fresh air. A MMO true to the concept of Massive multiplayer online. The concept of playing online and forcing individuals to party up  at every step of the way never felt right with me. I like partying up with folks but not by force. I should only need to party if i want to accomplish something truly extraordinary not to enjoy the game on a day by day basis.

Originally posted by franksalbe

This will be a breath of fresh air. A MMO true to the concept of Massive multiplayer online. The concept of playing online and forcing individuals to party up  at every step of the way never felt right with me. I like partying up with folks but not by force. I should only need to party if i want to accomplish something truly extraordinary not to enjoy the game on a day by day basis.

Well said, bro. Well said indeed... That's the way any and all solo advocates should be, imhyvko (yet very knowledgeable). This philosophy should be accepted by both sides.

Maybe one day they'll  make an MMO where the two main factions are solo players and groupies. That... seems pretty one-sided though, now that I think about it.

Originally posted by franksalbe

This will be a breath of fresh air. A MMO true to the concept of Massive multiplayer online. The concept of playing online and forcing individuals to party up  at every step of the way never felt right with me. I like partying up with folks but not by force. I should only need to party if i want to accomplish something truly extraordinary not to enjoy the game on a day by day basis.

if you don't want to group with other players then go play one of the million boring single player rpgs on the market tor is claiming to be an mmo that means you should group up to go out and do things in game

---

Originally posted by stillkillin

---

Originally posted by franksalbe

This will be a breath of fresh air. A MMO true to the concept of Massive multiplayer online. The concept of playing online and forcing individuals to party up  at every step of the way never felt right with me. I like partying up with folks but not by force. I should only need to party if i want to accomplish something truly extraordinary not to enjoy the game on a day by day basis.

---

 
if you don't want to group with other players then go play one of the million boring single player rpgs on the market tor is claiming to be an mmo that means you should group up to go out and do things in game

---

1. There's very few single player RPGs left these days (JRPGs don't count, they're nothing like CRPGs).

2. The few that tend to come out are usually exceptional (The Wicther, Fallout, anything by Bioware).

3. If you don't like the rpg genre I suggest that you move onto another website, mmoRPG.com might not be for you.

4. http://www.sesamestreet.org

5. Periods aren't just for women.

Originally posted by stillkillin

 

if you don't want to group with other players then go play one of the million boring single player rpgs on the market tor is claiming to be an mmo that means you should group up to go out and do things in game

Says the "SWG Vet", I would say almost 90% of SWG was soloable now and was in pre-cu. We don't mind grouping, we just don't wanna be forced to do it. Did you actually play pre-cu? One of the most important things to have learned is forcing something on somebody is never the right idea, or did the NGE have a vote where most players voted "yes" to it? Didn't think so, now shut the hell up kid. Your ignorance is giving me nutt cancer.