Originally posted by Zorndorf

Originally posted by Leucrotta

Dont play dumb mate, you seen those figures posted before here, and you know they come from the offical ncsoft q2 figures.

 

Then it sure will be no problem top produce the link where it states they have 3.5 M subs too.

I want the NCsoft links that produce the confirmed numbers of 3.5 M subs please.

You simply can't.

But back on track: be sure a hell I will produce the Xfire links in the upcoming months. Because here in the west we HAVE the tools to view player atcivity.

 

 

Show me a post where I claim Aion has 3.5 million players?

im just quoting you for YOUR error in server numbers and please bore me with your xfire stats because i cant give a freaking shit how many western people will play Aion.

Asia will keep Aion up for a long time so even if the west have 2 servers people can fully enjoy it.

Originally posted by otter3370

Most of these posts complaining about WoW are borderline ridiculous.  Many of you guys admit to playing the game for years and find yourselves bored and blame the game.  Maybe you're bored because you've been playing that one game for so long, it's just time to move on.  If you do leave, I'm sure Blizzard is more then satisfied with the hundreds of dollars you gave them for the priviledge of playing the game you so despise.  WoW is the perfect mmorpg in my opinion.   It's a casual mmorpg, yes, which seems to be a big problem for some people.  I keep hearing about how they've made it too easy.  Well, it's proabably not that easy to people who can't spend 8+ hours a day playing a game.  You hardcore gamers spend so much time learning every aspect of an mmorpg, learning the ratios, percentages of this or that, how this effects that when worn on....bah, you take all the simple fun out of a game.  Eh, maybe it's time to crack open a book, or just go outside for a while...I know I can use some fresh air.

And THIS.... ooh boy... THIS shouldn't have even been posted lol.   As far as people making a game not fun... how bout the introduction of Achievements...... who here has ever seen "LFM Ulduar  link  Epic, and Achieve"   It's like a friggin Credit Check to get into a raid, so it's actually Blizzard that put this HAVING to know percentages, ratios, achievements, etc.  to force people to play a certain way instead of a way that they would RATHER do things.  No more trial and error.  People are not aloud to be "undergeared", or "New" to a raid without being scolded or being rejected.  So please, don't post ridiculous comments like this without clearing your WoW brainwashed mind out first.

I thought Aion's biggest selling element was that it was polished at launch and feature complete (as far as developer promises).

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Originally posted by Leucrotta

 

Show me a post where I claim Aion has 3.5 million players?

 

im just quoting you for YOUR error in server numbers and please bore me with your xfire stats because i cant give a freaking shit how many western people will play Aion.

Asia will keep Aion up for a long time so even if the west have 2 servers people can fully enjoy it.

 

Odd, because Aion BIGGEST unique sales argument is that it .... HAS 3.5 M subs over there.

 

Really, you just said NCSoft didnt release figures? then how the hell can they use it as a sales argument

nowhere on the box it says played by 3.5 million nowhere on the Aion website do they claim those numbers

not in a single press release they claim those numbers.

some fanboys on here maybe or you that keep banghing about those numbers dont sell games.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Topic was: WOW is epic fail ..... while it has a 80% market share of sub based MMO's in the west.

.... because I as an OP have played it for 5 years at 4 hours a day and now I am bored with it.

Good God. What a thread....

 

Eh, I dont think he said it failed finacially, WoW is far from a finacial failure. I'm sure you agree.

But on a personal level, it's a failure to him.

Originally posted by Zorndorf
...

In the end it will be about the GAMING value, not the hype ...... as ..... always.

 ...

Can't argue with the quoted text.

As for the rest, it's just a matter of opinion. Thing is, if right now I could choose between Aion, Final Fantasy and Tera, I probably wouldn't pick Aion. If I could choose between everything mentioned and a revamped Anarchy Online, I'd pick AO (or Starcraft MMO), or any other setting besides fantasy. So it comes down to choices we have at the particular time we're discussing things.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Very good post and observation.
 

Like I said: "what a thread" ...

I could put it the other way .... "I am because I am bored"  ... well 80% paying in that MMO market are NOT.

You would be surprised at how many are bored of WoW, but continue paying monthly fees because friends and relatives continue to play. There is also the reason of every MMO to release lately is really not "all that". I see WoW riding first for a lot longer, really I'm fine with it keeping the top. The only thing I see killing WoW is Bilzzards next MMO. But you can never be to sure about that, there is still a small possibility blizzard could fumble this new IP they are talking about. I highly doubt it though. I'm really curious on what the new IPs agenda is.

And for what it's worth, I recently dropped WoW, it's time for me to move on. WoW is a great game. Some of the changes didn't appeal to me, but it will certainly appeal to a lot of others. Plus ToR is looking pretty sweet.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Search the internet. The internet was ALL over the place with those false and uncomfirmed 3.5 M subs.

Any official ncsoft in there? didnt think so

It was the ONLY way to create intrest for a Korean made product in the west: Aion beats WOW in the East.

BS you just said it your self that china started with 1 million players the first 4 days. thats quite good for a new IP

Hardly as WOW still has double the servers/players in Korea homeland itself.

Offical linky for that please

But now comes open Beta and suddenly no one made ANY statements whatsoever. :))) Oh.

 

Like I said with the 3-way reference of WOW_EVE_LotrO stick in hand, it will be easy to view its real staying power over here.

I'll give you a tip: 12US &nd 12 UK servers is of course much too low to host the 400K expected players.

Ever heard from servers on demand? its and rvr game balance is very important im glad they go this way

---->b CSoft is smart and they are using the internet in a very clever way.

So does blizzard and any other gaming company out there, you seen any figures from Blizzard lately?

No? must be because they didnt get a new milestone, im sure they did if they did

In the end it will be about the GAMING value, not the hype ...... as ..... always.

On topic here, yes ofcourse thats why i quited WoW

 4 Million "players" of Lineage 2 proved that alright in the west (around 50 K subs at the moment).

just because people in the west dont dig it dusnt mean L2 wasnt played by 4 million people so what is your point

 

 

An interesting thought to explore is what about all the burnouts that leave WoW at some point? Where do they go?

Personally, I don't think that the majority of them touch any other MMO, otherwise we'd have seen a bigger growth of the rest of the MMO crowd. Bottom line, WoW brought the big crowds and the acceptability in the gender, but not the growth one would expect.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Sometimes we DO agree.
 

I'm going to assume that was directed at me to save you the hassle of fixing the error, unless you are agreeing with yourself :P

Originally posted by Xasapis

An interesting thought to explore is what about all the burnouts that leave WoW at some point? Where do they go?

The only reason I feel I have the ability to answer this is because of how many people I know that play/played WoW and got burned out. Most of them actually go back, after 2-3 months, then 6 months later, quit, claim its the last time and go back. Some actually go on to do other things, play other MMOs, Single Player games they have missed over the years. But as I said, most seem to return, not much out there to choose from, in my opinion.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

I show things and do reason, that's why the haters can't stand me.

http://www.xfire.com/genre/mmo/massively_multiplayer_online/

 

No no, the haters can't stand you because you make shit up. Please, lets be realistic shall we? Lets use your own tool there, you honestly believe that only 547 people ever logged into Aion at any one time? Honestly? This is credible data to you? And you are fully aware that those numbers on Xfire are only Xfire users right? The rest of us, who think that is trash are not counted by them. The links we have given you showing you more realistic numbers, you discount because they dont reflect the world as you feel it is, not that they aren't accurate, but that you think they aren't, thats all.

You wanted links to data, we all gave you links, now you say you will ONLY accept official company web site links with the data?? Dude grow up already please, I know your old and all, but seriously its time to grow up.

http://mmodata.blogspot.com/search/label/Source%20Links

That should give you plenty of links to go read, MMODATA, and MMOCHART have been working that data since 08/02. If anyone out there is close enough to accurate on this stuff its them. And guess what, they are even taking your Xfire numbers into account when figuring thier data. Its just not 100% accurate as a stand alone source.

2009 data    http://www.mmodata.net/

2008 and prior data   http://www.mmogchart.com/

Oh yeah, one more thing since your so stuck on the numbers game. How exactly is NCSoft billling its Asian Customers for play time? Same as WoW, or not same as WoW? If not, are the two even comparable on your comments?

Originally posted by Zorndorf
....

They will ADD servers in the first week of launch. Even will give you the number: around 6 US / 8 EU.

.... because you simply can't host 400K with 24 servers. It IS a marketing move.

....

What kind of a marketing move is that? A bad one? I don't think that you can argue that having less servers at launch instead of more looks better. It does lead to a more healthy server population in the long run, and that's one of the big reasons that WAR lost a good deal of subscribers. But if you look at it strictly from the marketing perspective, less servers is bad for marketing.

Which would look more impressive? 12 servers at launch or 100?

So they are doing the exact opposite of what WAR did, am I right?

It'll still lead to healthier servers, in my opinion.

Originally posted by Xasapis

An interesting thought to explore is what about all the burnouts that leave WoW at some point? Where do they go?

 

Simple , they come to MMORPG related sites to whine how bad and burning and easy and .... WoW is now.

Problem is for many of them WoW was first MMO game and they want WoW still be for them as it was at beginning fresh and new game genre , but sadly you/we do not get that kind of feeling in any other MMO never again its like with loosing virginity , its never come back.

Got anyone in particular in mind?

Seriously though, these forums are a refuge for the lookouts for options. I found these servers when I got tired from my previous MMO and was considering joining a new one. It's only natural that most of the people in here are in a transitional phase, or at the least, they are disillusioned about the current MMO they've been playing. WoW happens to get a lot of heat from those transitioners, because I a good portion of them transition from that MMO.

When I find my new home, I'll probably disappear. Well, maybe I'll keep posting when I have an opening at work.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

 

I will even give you the catch phrase

"Within one week we had to add 50% more servers !!!" I bet their art department is already making the banners for it.

If I can see they will launch in the first week with 400 K, then sure THEY know it.

Like I said 12/12 is a marketing stunt.

Prediction: 400K first week launch. Atfer 3 months: 30% retention rate (like ALL mmo's launched these last 3 years).

6 months: a struggle to hold onto 150K subs in the west.

And then we'll have the new kid on the block.

NCSoft is simply smarter than Mark Jacobs (which shouldn't be too difficult)...

War had the disadvantage of being unplayable with unbalanced or small populations. That's the ONLY difference you'll see with other MMO's. Most can play with 5 people on line. War not.

 Edit: And then some idiots will jump in and say their servers can hold 30.000 subscribers. So I am very glad to have a sampling tool. :)))))

 

 

Ok, so here is the bet for you Zorn. In 6 months, if your proved wrong by your own prediction, how about you post an appology to everyone and leave this forum community forever. You confident enough with your predictions to put your name on the line with them?

My prediction is simple, I say Aion will hold the #2 spot in the market in 6 months, I'm willing to take the bet, are you?

Oh yeah, and each Aion server is capable of supporting 7000 simultaneous players which is approx 2 to 1 over a WoW server. Incase you didnt' know, the amount of total subscribers each server can handle is irrelevant, how many of those subscribers that can be logged in at one time is.

I like the last post....sounds like a typical WOW fanbois post ,basing the game on numbers?

WOW the oft talked about game has what for content? raiding and PVP?PVP is not content and raiding is the simplest form of content to add,pretty weak game design and even weaker players for claiming this is a good game sad.

Then you have the tons of WOW players ALL using add ons ,i guess that means the game is quite incomplete if you need add ons.Most of the add- ons are to make the game AUTO play for these weak players,so again it points to VERY superficial gamers,it does not equate to a GOOD game in any form or fashion.

Now we have Aion posters claiming numbers means something again.Aion has even less content than WOW ,as a matter of fact AION is pretty much F2P content quality game,VERY little content,a game world that is race to max level ...PVP.zzzz boring 101.But wait ! you get all that customization...ummm 2 races lol ya that's a ton load customization pffft cheap design.Stay tuned they will sell you the rest of AION in a few months after release as an expansion lol.

If there was no easy mode and so many AUTO play add ons for WOW,the kiddies would not even bother with the game,and all those bored solo players would not be dragging their 5 multi clients into raids with them and soloing.I think Blizzard gets a little too much credit for making an easy mode game,it is the scripts/add -ons that have really dumb down an already weak game design.

NUMBERS mean squat to an UNBIASED review,you have to break down the game piece by piece and look at what the developer has done,have they put in effort,or did they take the easy route all the way.Aion just made another Lineage game but added flying and instead of castle siege they added abyss RvR not much talent needed to make that ,especially when only 2 realms lol.WOW took an already better looking EQ2 dumb it down with easier rewards for doing the same old ho hum quests,cheaper design in just about every facet of the game,because it made it faster to develop rehashed already used models and art,so that took little or much less effort,not much design in WOW deserve much praise.it is a very ho hum game.

Polishing both WOW and Aion is a near joke,they both copied other games ,lineage and Eq,so the template was already laid out for them.Actually Aion is probably more polished because WOW has had lots of mistakes,you just don't always hear about them like you do in other games.Aion is evolving because their player base in Asia actually didn't like the balance or design so they changed to version 1.05,funny how EVERYONE was praising the game ,yet it needed to be changed does that make any sense?

I think in the end ,the fanbois of both WOW and Aion will continue to point at numbers,instead of actual quality,that IMO is stretching for anything to warrant them playing their game.How about just saying you play WOW or AION because it does it for you?Trying to convince others that your choice is a brilliant one because everyone else is playing it,is a VERY weak excuse,or not?

Wizardy,

I will attempt to reply to some of your points.

Content - a great deal of wow content can be found in the levelling process. Many of the quests in the Wotlk levelling areas are extremely well produced. For example the Wrathgate quest line in Dragonblight is an excellent example of how to design a solo PvE quest (which may not be your thing, but each to his own).

No game in existance has infinite content. They all end up with either repeating stuff with different classes (FFXI), some form of PvP (EvE, DaOC, Aion) or Raiding (EQ, WoW). All these approaches have strengths and weaknesses, but picking one and saying it is "Weak" is superficial - since many people find a great deal of challenge and enjoyment in raiding, both in WoW and other games. If you don't enjoy it then fine - but you're going to have to come up with something a lot better than "it's weak" if you want to sound convincing.

Add-ons. Have you ever seriously raided in WoW - I don't mean the few introductory raids (Kara, Naxx, VoA, OS) but into the more serious and difficult content (e.g. Ulduar)? Add-ons most certainly don't "play the game for you". There's still huge amounts of challenge there if you want it. I'd agree that one or two add-ons are so essential that they should have been part of the main game (e.g. healers generally see some sort of raid frames add-on as being a must-have). However, that's only a minor issue. To me, it appears that the add-ons allow the game to be taken to a new level - it allows the players to concentrate on the interesting parts of gameplay rather than repetive trivia. You may say that using a calculator is "cheating" when it comes to maths - but where would modern engineers be without calculators?

EQ2 - how did WoW take "an already better looking EQ2"? You do realise that WoW and EQ2 were both launched in exactly the same month? So how can WoW have managed to be based on EQ2? It's true that both were based on EQ, but after launch, influence flowed more in the other direction, since Sony borrowed ideas from WoW in order to chase higher subscriptions. And whether EQ2 is better looking is highly debatable. It's a more realistic art style, which some people prefer, but it still has many weaknesses. Graphically both games have been surpassed by many later MMO releases (LOTRO, Vanguard, AoC, WhO, Aion). But many people see gameplay as being far more important than graphics, and so stick with older games such as WoW and EQ2.

Quality - what is this mythical "quality" that you speak of? For many people who play wow, the quality is self evident. Unlike a few other games you don't meet serious bugs every time you play. Combat is smooth, and characters are responsive. Many other MMOs lack that.
 

Originally posted by greed0104

 

You would be surprised at how many are bored of WoW, but continue paying monthly fees because friends and relatives continue to play.

That was the sole reason for me playing the final 2 years I played. Really the game feeds upon itself once you have invested time into it. In addition the game brought many people in the genre who would normally never play a video game or an mmo. I'm pretty sure most of those people won't play another game after WoW. The guild I was in (about 50 people) had mostly people like that. Only a few were really gamers, the others don't play other games and won't play any other games if they quit WoW. I enjoyed their company and was pretty much the reason why I continued to play the last 2 years before I quit for good. It ended up being a paid glorified chat room for me.

Originally posted by taurak

5 years later...

I remember at release when we were promised hero CLASSES that were supposed to be hard to obtain, and meaningful. 5 years later, we have one imbalanced as hell hero class that totally sucks.

The honor system was a joke, now replaced by the arena system that is more of a joke. Arena is exploitable on multiple levels, class combinations > skill and all that kinda stuff. Some class combinations have absolutely no chance regardless of skill, that is not how a meaningful PvP system that gives rewards as good as these ones should work.

Think how pissed people would be if their prescious raids just wouldn't work without 5 of your 20 people being hunters or something dumb like that.

 

Raids, if you call thm raids...

These raids are not raids.

I can rant on for years about this. A raid dungeon is not something that you should be able to walk into and clear the place on your first week. I don't care if there is a heroic mode, you shouldn't be able to clear it the first week even on easy mode.

What is the point? People are getting so used to being handfed easy epics that it has ruined the MMORPG community, not just in WoW, but now people expect easy mode whiney baby carebear crap in every game. It makes me sick. I would like to see HARD raids, you know like when you kill the mob you are like damn that was a fight, and you feel good about winning. Onyxia and Molten Core were great at release. They were hard. From then on it just got so easy that it was boring.

 

I don't play this game anymore, it bores me to tears, the only reason I'm posting this is because the millions of subscribers that play this boring game are getting bored, and I don't want to see the other developers shoot for the carebear crowd and try to make a new MMORPG marketed at these types.

Gamers don't want their hands held, we want a challenge. WoW kiddies can get free epics from blizzard.

QFT

Wow, I couldn't have said it better myself.

Hurr hurr, why wasn't this thread locked already?

Originally posted by Thenarius

Hurr hurr, why wasn't this thread locked already?

THIS IS A CONSPIRACY!

Haven't these casual types ever heard of contraception?

THEY ARE SPREADING LIKE RABBITS and drowning out the real players!!!11

Who cares if they have more money as a group than WE DO

I WANT DARKFALL TO NOT FAIL!!!

fixt.

(sorry, I couldn't help myself- its not like this thread accomplished anything)

Originally posted by solocrono

Originally posted by otter3370

Most of these posts complaining about WoW are borderline ridiculous.  Many of you guys admit to playing the game for years and find yourselves bored and blame the game.  Maybe you're bored because you've been playing that one game for so long, it's just time to move on.  If you do leave, I'm sure Blizzard is more then satisfied with the hundreds of dollars you gave them for the priviledge of playing the game you so despise.  WoW is the perfect mmorpg in my opinion.   It's a casual mmorpg, yes, which seems to be a big problem for some people.  I keep hearing about how they've made it too easy.  Well, it's proabably not that easy to people who can't spend 8+ hours a day playing a game.  You hardcore gamers spend so much time learning every aspect of an mmorpg, learning the ratios, percentages of this or that, how this effects that when worn on....bah, you take all the simple fun out of a game.  Eh, maybe it's time to crack open a book, or just go outside for a while...I know I can use some fresh air.

 

And THIS.... ooh boy... THIS shouldn't have even been posted lol.   As far as people making a game not fun... how bout the introduction of Achievements...... who here has ever seen "LFM Ulduar  link  Epic, and Achieve"   It's like a friggin Credit Check to get into a raid, so it's actually Blizzard that put this HAVING to know percentages, ratios, achievements, etc.  to force people to play a certain way instead of a way that they would RATHER do things.  No more trial and error.  People are not aloud to be "undergeared", or "New" to a raid without being scolded or being rejected.  So please, don't post ridiculous comments like this without clearing your WoW brainwashed mind out first.

ohhh...a personal attack.  I don't think I'm WoW brainwashed...whatever that means.  The problem with your post is it just further proves MY point.  Hardcore, elitist gamers are the ones that require you to have certain equipment, builds etc, before they will allow you to join their raids.  It's why I only raided with my guild when I played WoW.  You can't have it both ways and say WoW fails because it's too easy and then imply it's too hard because some players put prerequisites on dungeon raids.  As for achievements...they're just something new for players to do or collect.  You don't have to do it, so stop crying about it.  I think you're the one that is anti-WoW brainwashed.  See how I turned that around?

 i guess everybody disagre with you because wow never even lost numbers since 5 years ago