Originally posted by Delanor

Originally posted by vesavius

It's prolly worth dropping from the game for the good PR alone tbh.

 

The fact that they are using GG seems to indicate that anti-cheat measures are not present in their game at all. Can dropping GG be seen as good PR? Because without it, will the game be protected against botting and cheating? I am afraid not. Fortunately for them Aion will do good anyway. Only the informed will hesitate to buy the game.

My main point is that amongst the current zeigiest of fashionable lazy thinkin that GG is the devil, so dropping  it, yes, will be good PR.

My second point was that those that really want to cheat will just bypass it anyhow, so at best it's a minor deterant for casual cheats, so it's probably more trouble then it's worth in my eyes.

I personally don't care if it's in or not. I have never had any issues with it.

Over the past 5 years, I've upgraded my computer about 6 times. New CPU, new graphic card, new mobo, new memory, etc.

Also, I don't like anti-virus/anti-spyware programs, I've shut down almost all the security I got. The only thing I basicly have is my router firewall. Not once have I had a problem with GG.

But as other people said before, all PCs are different. But still, I find it a bit weird. But that's probably just me.

The latest patch removes GameGuard!

Originally posted by Delanor

 

The fact that they are using GG seems to indicate that anti-cheat measures are not present in their game at all. Can dropping GG be seen as good PR? Because without it, will the game be protected against botting and cheating? I am afraid not. Fortunately for them Aion will do good anyway. Only the informed will hesitate to buy the game.

The problem with something like GG is that is so easily bypassed by those with intent to cheat that all it does is cause trouble for legitimate users.  Same with DRM and all similar sorts of end user restrictive measures.

Originally posted by vesavius

 

Yeah same, never had a single issue with it, and the fact it has elements similar to a rootkit dosent bother me either much. I think theres a lot of unfounded panic and drama about it in out there, but you can't fight the zeitgiest with facts I guess.

The fact that there are a stack of GG bypassers out there make it pretty redundent though... anyone who wants to cheat can still do it very easily, even with it, so it seems pointless to have.

It's prolly worth dropping from the game for the good PR alone tbh.

It should give you pause because programs like GG, whether malicious or benign, are bypassing your systems internal security systems to operate.  Yes, maybe GG is not stealing passwords or logging keystrokes or anything like that but it could with the flip of a switch.  Worse still, it is one more internet facing service that is vulnerable to outside attack and SANs allready has multiple vulnerabilities posted for GG and other similar programs.  So, want to steal account info for your gold farmers - easy to port scan for Aion traffic and exploit GG to get total control of a users system or to target GG directly to feed out malicious code to users.  And don't think this is not happening in terms of what the malicious folks will do to get a foot in on people's systems (read here and here for alarming real world attacks much more sophisticated than going after GG to get to users).  Heck, I just read a story about a legitimate software retailer that sells parental monitoring software and they have been caught logging and selling the chat (skype, aim, etc) of kids under 13 so don't tell me it is not prudent to not give companies unfettered access to your system.

Originally posted by Shannia

Originally posted by Schaapje

In every game that uses GG, people are complaining about it.

"I can't launch the game" , "GG sucks", "GG makes my game crash" bla bla bla...

How come myself and alot of other players never experience trouble with GG?

Not once did GG fuck up my game, nothing. I just fail to see how so many people aren't able to make GG "work".

I know any anti-cheat program just sucks balls. No doubt about that. But the fact it does help a bit in the game.

Great question.  The reason for 98% of the GG errors are that people don't shut off all their virus, phising, etc protection stuff before they install the game.  User error when they tell you to shut the stuff off, but people don't listen. 

That is just ridiculous.  GG causes trouble in many cases when those security programs are not disabled because they detect and block the inappropriate methods GG uses.  Turning those programs off is not fixing anything anymore than numbing your arm with a big nasty cut on it solves the problem of a big nasty cut on your arm.  It is not user error to disable the programs used to detect illegitimate program operation and warn about it, it is stupid if a users gets such a warning and ignores the software installed to provide such warning.

Originally posted by Shannia

 

Give it 60 days, when all the new people are paying their $15 a month, then NCSoft is gonna drop the hammer and shove GG right back in.  All you have to do is read the full statement by dev team and it reads plain as day.  Sad part is, as soon as they put GG back in, you can bet all these folks cheering AIONs action to remove it are gonna be back crying how they were dupe by AION devs.  HELL, if you bother to read what they wrote, you can tell GG will be back.

I think that is a bit unfair.  Sure, maybe this is a trick as you suggest.  However, if we are going to assume the worst like that, rather than dealing with the reality of the moment, then no company would ever rescind such measures since nobody would give them credit for doing so.  My believe is that the move is sincere, even if the desire to get GG out and working in the future is also sincere.  However, knowing GGs track record it is entirely likely it will never come back as it is unlikely to come back in a way that is not as invasive and unstable and therefore as problematic to folks.  Now that they have acknowledged it has issues they are going to have a very hard time re-enabling it with the same problems present is what I am saying.

So yeah, be vigilant regarding the future and Aion/GG - but lets applaud NCsoft for the decision made now and hope the good will of siding with users will encourage them to keep user considerations in the forefront for the future as well.

The point here is NCsoft, at least for now, did the right thing and as gamers and users who want to see them continue to do the right thing  we should applaud them and encourage them so they continue to do the right thing.

Originally posted by AgtSmith

The point here is NCsoft, at least for now, did the right thing and as gamers and users who want to see them continue to do the right thing  we should applaud them and encourage them so they continue to do the right thing.

They clearly stated that they are working at getting GameGuard back. I do not applaud them yet. I do not buy their game yet.

That is your choice, of course, but by your standard no company can ever win you back by stopping use of such stuff so there is no incentive for them to stop using it.  Yes, NCsoft can re-implement GG in a month or two or six, but they could also nerf my class or cut bandwidth making the game unplayably laggy or do any number of things that I dislike enough to stop playing/buying Aion (provided I like the game enough to pay for a sub) but I can always cancel if they do any of those things or other things I dislike.  If I don't choose to buy based on them taking good action though, then they and other developers are more likely to continue down the GG and invasive DRM route.

Wait, i can go through the unnecessarily difficult process of removing GG?  Or will i just have to have it reinstalled in a few weeks?

I am looking forward to get rid of, what amounts to me, as a spyware program, as it doesnt do what its intended to do, remove bots and hacks.

When I patched the launch version (it somehow disabled gameguard.), my computer has returned back to normal. The printer is printing correctly (GG had caused my printer to print out weird). I can surf to Ten Ton Hammer website (GG strangely blocked me to access to this particular website. very weird). The system seems to be running a bit faster (GG really slowed my computer down).

Dont bring back gameguard ever again. NCsoft, do you understand?

---

Originally posted by crunchyblack
Wait, i can go through the unnecessarily difficult process of removing GG?  Or will i just have to have it reinstalled in a few weeks?
I am looking forward to get rid of, what amounts to me, as a spyware program, as it doesnt do what its intended to do, remove bots and hacks.

---

Nobody knows.

However, there are other program alternatives to GG that they may choose to implement instead.

Originally posted by AgtSmith

 

Originally posted by vesavius

 

Yeah same, never had a single issue with it, and the fact it has elements similar to a rootkit dosent bother me either much. I think theres a lot of unfounded panic and drama about it in out there, but you can't fight the zeitgiest with facts I guess.

The fact that there are a stack of GG bypassers out there make it pretty redundent though... anyone who wants to cheat can still do it very easily, even with it, so it seems pointless to have.

It's prolly worth dropping from the game for the good PR alone tbh.

 

It should give you pause because programs like GG, whether malicious or benign, are bypassing your systems internal security systems to operate.  Yes, maybe GG is not stealing passwords or logging keystrokes or anything like that but it could with the flip of a switch.  Worse still, it is one more internet facing service that is vulnerable to outside attack and SANs allready has multiple vulnerabilities posted for GG and other similar programs.  So, want to steal account info for your gold farmers - easy to port scan for Aion traffic and exploit GG to get total control of a users system or to target GG directly to feed out malicious code to users.  And don't think this is not happening in terms of what the malicious folks will do to get a foot in on people's systems (read here and here for alarming real world attacks much more sophisticated than going after GG to get to users).  Heck, I just read a story about a legitimate software retailer that sells parental monitoring software and they have been caught logging and selling the chat (skype, aim, etc) of kids under 13 so don't tell me it is not prudent to not give companies unfettered access to your system.

 

We have been through this dance before Smith, over on the Spellborn boards...

Lets just say you not gonna convince me different to what I think based on the research I have done.

Lets just agree to disagree.

Originally posted by vesavius

Originally posted by AgtSmith

It should give you pause because programs like GG, whether malicious or benign, are bypassing your systems internal security systems to operate.  Yes, maybe GG is not stealing passwords or logging keystrokes or anything like that but it could with the flip of a switch.  Worse still, it is one more internet facing service that is vulnerable to outside attack and SANs allready has multiple vulnerabilities posted for GG and other similar programs.  So, want to steal account info for your gold farmers - easy to port scan for Aion traffic and exploit GG to get total control of a users system or to target GG directly to feed out malicious code to users.  And don't think this is not happening in terms of what the malicious folks will do to get a foot in on people's systems (read here and here for alarming real world attacks much more sophisticated than going after GG to get to users).  Heck, I just read a story about a legitimate software retailer that sells parental monitoring software and they have been caught logging and selling the chat (skype, aim, etc) of kids under 13 so don't tell me it is not prudent to not give companies unfettered access to your system. 

 

We have been through this dance before Smith, over on the Spellborn boards...

Lets just say you not gonna convince me different to what I think based on the research I have done.

Lets just agree to disagree.

Your choice, but you have to admit some pretty authoritative sources back up what I have said, here and in the TCoS thread.  Not only that, NCsoft's backing off GG shows the criticisms are real.  Here is what Slashdot had to say on the announcement:

"NCSoft has announced that they will be dropping GameGuard from the western launch of their upcoming MMORPG, Aion. The flawed Korean anti-cheat software has been heavily criticized for employing root-kit like techniques and conflicting with many hardware configurations. The final straw is thought to have been the stability issues experienced by players during open beta and the community outcry it caused. The decision makes Aion, which recently announced over 400,000 western pre-orders, a real contender in the western MMO market."  - Slashdot

Look, rootkit or not, malicious (by intent or by bad design/programming) the reality is this program causes lots of legitimate users trouble and for that reason alone should not be used.  The inappropriate way it is deployed and operates is just icing on the 'avoid this' cake.

As to those avoiding Aion even after this announcement, I understand the concern that it will come back but I really think NCsoft deserves support for yanking it given the troubles.  If we are as vocal at applauding that decision as we where vocal about denouncing the inclusion in the first place then it is very likely they will stay away from it or at the least make sure the concerns are addressed before using it or something else.  It is time to give credit where credit is due and I know NCsoft doesn't have a time machine to go back and undo the original decision to use GG so the only thing they could do was discontinue using it and that deserves applause.

Originally posted by AgtSmith

Originally posted by vesavius

Originally posted by AgtSmith

It should give you pause because programs like GG, whether malicious or benign, are bypassing your systems internal security systems to operate.  Yes, maybe GG is not stealing passwords or logging keystrokes or anything like that but it could with the flip of a switch.  Worse still, it is one more internet facing service that is vulnerable to outside attack and SANs allready has multiple vulnerabilities posted for GG and other similar programs.  So, want to steal account info for your gold farmers - easy to port scan for Aion traffic and exploit GG to get total control of a users system or to target GG directly to feed out malicious code to users.  And don't think this is not happening in terms of what the malicious folks will do to get a foot in on people's systems (read here and here for alarming real world attacks much more sophisticated than going after GG to get to users).  Heck, I just read a story about a legitimate software retailer that sells parental monitoring software and they have been caught logging and selling the chat (skype, aim, etc) of kids under 13 so don't tell me it is not prudent to not give companies unfettered access to your system. 

 

We have been through this dance before Smith, over on the Spellborn boards...

Lets just say you not gonna convince me different to what I think based on the research I have done.

Lets just agree to disagree.

 

Your choice, but you have to admit some pretty authoritative sources back up what I have said, here and in the TCoS thread.  Not only that, NCsoft's backing off GG shows the criticisms are real.  Here is what Slashdot had to say on the announcement:

 

"NCSoft has announced that they will be dropping GameGuard from the western launch of their upcoming MMORPG, Aion. The flawed Korean anti-cheat software has been heavily criticized for employing root-kit like techniques and conflicting with many hardware configurations. The final straw is thought to have been the stability issues experienced by players during open beta and the community outcry it caused. The decision makes Aion, which recently announced over 400,000 western pre-orders, a real contender in the western MMO market."  - Slashdot

 

Look, rootkit or not, malicious (by intent or by bad design/programming) the reality is this program causes lots of legitimate users trouble and for that reason alone should not be used.  The inappropriate way it is deployed and operates is just icing on the 'avoid this' cake.

 

As to those avoiding Aion even after this announcement, I understand the concern that it will come back but I really think NCsoft deserves support for yanking it given the troubles.  If we are as vocal at applauding that decision as we where vocal about denouncing the inclusion in the first place then it is very likely they will stay away from it or at the least make sure the concerns are addressed before using it or something else.  It is time to give credit where credit is due and I know NCsoft doesn't have a time machine to go back and undo the original decision to use GG so the only thing they could do was discontinue using it and that deserves applause.

 

Yep, kudos to NCS for removing it, and it's better that they keep it out.

I think we can agree on these points at least :)

 they still need to insitute a bot prevention and cheating keyboard blocker, nothing worse then playing pvp games and having to mow down the same noob and his 5 bot accounts he has folowing him all set to macro heal him and hit his targets.  and blocking things like the g15 also make botting much harder as not allowing client side to spam commands to the character prevents all sorts of cheating, sorry legit g15 users that dont cheat but thats just how it is.

Originally posted by neorandom

 they still need to insitute a bot prevention and cheating keyboard blocker, nothing worse then playing pvp games and having to mow down the same noob and his 5 bot accounts he has folowing him all set to macro heal him and hit his targets.  and blocking things like the g15 also make botting much harder as not allowing client side to spam commands to the character prevents all sorts of cheating, sorry legit g15 users that dont cheat but thats just how it is.

Ok that comment is just retarded. I own a G15 and it is currently the only Keybaord I use (planning on getting the G19). Blocking a keyboard is the most stupid comment ever. You can do macros in any game, and assing them to any button you choose; having more buttons on a keyboard has nothing to do with botting. Thats like saying, oh plz ban all the keyboards that ahve F1-F12 buttons cuz you can spam them to use bots. Like i said absolutely retarded.

 I wonder their real motivation for removing it? Was it on the advice of their tech guys or their lawyers? Based on the precedent in the Sony/BMG case I think there is a high likelyhood that GG is illegal in many of the territories it is launching in.

So did the patch completely remove it? That would be a first for GG.

Originally posted by sr7olsniper

Originally posted by neorandom

 they still need to insitute a bot prevention and cheating keyboard blocker, nothing worse then playing pvp games and having to mow down the same noob and his 5 bot accounts he has folowing him all set to macro heal him and hit his targets.  and blocking things like the g15 also make botting much harder as not allowing client side to spam commands to the character prevents all sorts of cheating, sorry legit g15 users that dont cheat but thats just how it is.

 

Ok that comment is just retarded. I own a G15 and it is currently the only Keybaord I use (planning on getting the G19). Blocking a keyboard is the most stupid comment ever. You can do macros in any game, and assing them to any button you choose; having more buttons on a keyboard has nothing to do with botting. Thats like saying, oh plz ban all the keyboards that ahve F1-F12 buttons cuz you can spam them to use bots. Like i said absolutely retarded.

Don't forget everyone with a decent ping should have there bandwidth throttled to the lowest common denominator too!

Originally posted by Gorilla

Don't forget everyone with a decent ping should have there bandwidth throttled to the lowest common denominator too!

In a game with high importance of PvP? Yes, they should.

 i never had an issue with GG, also i think people are paranoid if they truly believe your computer is an easy target for hackers just cause you use GG. i also never had problems uninstalling it.

 What do you suggest? 300ms limit? Half a second? Maybe go for a full second throttling?  Maybe everyone should play on 300bps modems? 

That's what GCD and slop timers are for. (Aion combat doesn't feel 'crisp' with there daft post cast animations btw).

Is a scroll wheel OK ? How about 5 button mouse? I guess everyone should be throttled down to 15 fps too don't want any advantage there actually better make it 10 to be safe.

Originally posted by AgtSmith

That is your choice, of course, but by your standard no company can ever win you back by stopping use of such stuff so there is no incentive for them to stop using it. 

No, there you are wrong. I plan on tryingout the game (buying)  as soon as they drop GameGuard. I have nothing against NCSoft or Aoin, it is just GameGuard that is a show stopper for me.

Originally posted by Gorilla

 What do you suggest? 300ms limit? Half a second? Maybe go for a full second throttling?  Maybe everyone should play on 300bps modems? 

That's what GCD and slop timers are for. (Aion combat doesn't feel 'crisp' with there daft post cast animations btw).

Is a scroll wheel OK ? How about 5 button mouse? I guess everyone should be throttled down to 15 fps too don't want any advantage there actually better make it 10 to be safe.

Any principle can be taken to ridiculous extremes.

Do you really feel elite because you can own someone who is using a two-button mouse and a bad connection?

Combat macroes and addons are just crutches for the incompetent. You're not playing the game, your keyboard and mouse are.

Originally posted by Delanor

 

No, there you are wrong. I plan on tryingout the game (buying)  as soon as they drop GameGuard. I have nothing against NCSoft or Aoin, it is just GameGuard that is a show stopper for me.

All I read is that they aren't "featuring Game Guard". Given the weasel words devs tend to use, that could well mean it will be installed but not activated.

It's pretty late in the day to be changing the disks going to retail.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Delanor

 

No, there you are wrong. I plan on tryingout the game (buying)  as soon as they drop GameGuard. I have nothing against NCSoft or Aoin, it is just GameGuard that is a show stopper for me.

All I read is that they aren't "featuring Game Guard". Given the weasel words devs tend to use, that could well mean it will be installed but not activated.

It's pretty late in the day to be changing the disks going to retail.

I am a patient man. I can wait a couple of months, which might be the time they need to definitely drop GameGuard (or not). BTW the disk going to retail might not contain GameGuard, because it can be installed with the patcher just as easy.

never had problems, still i prefer it this way, no gg

Originally posted by Skatty2007

Originally posted by DoomsDay01

Just remember, game guard isnt gone. Its actually still on your machine. They just temporarily patched it out. Personally I hope they keep it out as I couldn't use my amBX lighting system with it running but they may throw it back in at any time.

 

So are you saying if one buys the retail game, GameGuard is still in there but not being incorporated\interfaced with?

If that is the case, I retract my raised ale flaggon!  If it is out of the install alltogether, my raised flaggon of ale will still be raised.

One of the major reasons why I won't be trying out Aion is because of GameGuard and all of its rootkit-like attributes it has.

So are you saying that if one buys the retail game, the retail game in a box that was manufactured weeks ago, that NcSoft should go back in time in their magic Aion time machine and redo the production?

I doubt that will happen, but after you install it, it  will update.  You're going to have that last update anyway because I'm pretty sure they shipped 1.5  That would mean that your product would have it's GG disabled the same as the rest of us.

P.S.  There are no such things as time machines, so I'm pretty sure I'm right on this one.