Alot of players are calling Asian MMOs nothing other than grindfests.  Still - WAR has a renown rank of 80 that very few ppl have already got.  And those that got it are usualyy of certain classes that have it EASIER to gain renown than others.

I just desided to bring this up since JH was talking about the weakest parts of WAR.  Personally - when I found out renown had 80 ranks (not just 40) then I first realised the game wasn't for me.  Forced longterm PVPing while having no PVE content of same level made me loose all intrest in the game.  There was just no way I was gonna play a tank class and try to get to renown rank 80....  

Renown is no longer a grind since most old timer PvP'ers are gone from the game. What you need to do is fire up IRC client and connect to WAR channel.

Basically most RR80 you see today are from dueling aka crest trading... I hear some players get as much as 10 RR level a week doing some dueling and about 2-3 levels in the range of 70-80 end game renown.

Sad thing is all those players are hitting end game level but cannot get the warlord/sovereign pieces since you cannot arrange for enough people to cheat you into IC or King.

The state of the game is so ridiculous players are openly admiting crossrealming and crest trading on forums and nobody get banned or thread lock for doing so. The crew behind the game is a farce.

But if the game was all it was going to be and backed up by a large enough player base, renown(RR) would one of the biggest  MMO grind fest, requiring much more time and effort than epic gears in WoW, even pre-expansion.

Dunno, I never perceived it as grind.

I play the game to have fun and Renown happens. I don't play the game to get renown.

I never could understand people who play mmos to "achieve" something. I play games to have fun, and if that entails occasional achievements then so be it, but I always keep my priorities straight. RL is for achievements, games are for fun.

And besides I don't think anyone is "supposed" to reach RR80. In fact before the release devs stated on numerous occasions that  RR80 is basically unachievable in any practical sense and that when several players somehow do manage to reach it the RR cap will be increased. Renown should be like money - you can always get more and you're never supposed to reach the "cap". The cheat described above throws a cog into this system and that's not cool at all.

No. I would put WoWs old Honor system WELL ahead of it.  But Swan, you say, War has 80 levels of renown, while WoW had 14!

Well, Wow required you to play non stop, 8+ hours a week, or have more than one person playing your account to rank up past rank 9 or so.  And you had to do it for months. As I heard from people who made rank 14 (Grand marshal) From rank 13, they had to spend a full month from 13, to get to 14, of pvp, 8+ hours a day.

This wasn't just some bar that constantly fills up like Wars. No No, you were rated against every other player on the server who pvped.  As more People PvPed, you got more of the bar for the rank. But if someone got more honor that week than you, you might actually go DOWN in rank.  So lets say I was two weeks into the month long grind from rank 13 to 14. I had gotten 1st on the server with the most amount of honor.  Next week, I get sick and miss out, and am rated 10th on the server.  I could easily have dropped from those two weeks of progress, down to rank 12 again.  It was that stupid of a system.  It turned people against each other on many servers, from the posts on the boards.

Now, WAR's grind could easily be the most boring Grindfest.

Originally posted by Swanea

No. I would put WoWs old Honor system WELL ahead of it.  But Swan, you say, War has 80 levels of renown, while WoW had 14!

 

Well, Wow required you to play non stop, 8+ hours a week, or have more than one person playing your account to rank up past rank 9 or so.  And you had to do it for months. As I heard from people who made rank 14 (Grand marshal) From rank 13, they had to spend a full month from 13, to get to 14, of pvp, 8+ hours a day.

This wasn't just some bar that constantly fills up like Wars. No No, you were rated against every other player on the server who pvped.  As more People PvPed, you got more of the bar for the rank. But if someone got more honor that week than you, you might actually go DOWN in rank.  So lets say I was two weeks into the month long grind from rank 13 to 14. I had gotten 1st on the server with the most amount of honor.  Next week, I get sick and miss out, and am rated 10th on the server.  I could easily have dropped from those two weeks of progress, down to rank 12 again.  It was that stupid of a system.  It turned people against each other on many servers, from the posts on the boards.

 

Now, WAR's grind could easily be the most boring Grindfest.

*off topic*

Sad to see that system go though, it actually showed some skill in the game. Now everyone can get a fucking title if they put time into it.

Originally posted by BoudahXL

Renown is no longer a grind since most old timer PvP'ers are gone from the game. What you need to do is fire up IRC client and connect to WAR channel.

Basically most RR80 you see today are from dueling aka crest trading... I hear some players get as much as 10 RR level a week doing some dueling and about 2-3 levels in the range of 70-80 end game renown.

Sad thing is all those players are hitting end game level but cannot get the warlord/sovereign pieces since you cannot arrange for enough people to cheat you into IC or King.

The state of the game is so ridiculous players are openly admiting crossrealming and crest trading on forums and nobody get banned or thread lock for doing so. The crew behind the game is a farce.

 

But if the game was all it was going to be and backed up by a large enough player base, renown(RR) would one of the biggest  MMO grind fest, requiring much more time and effort than epic gears in WoW, even pre-expansion.

Wow, there is a load shot straight from ... If you are going to make outlandish claims like that at least have the decency to provide some links to your sources as proof.

OP - ever play Lineage 2? On it's worse day, WAR couldn't even touch L2's grind.

Any game that has two xp bars and levels within them is a grind fest, in my opinion. All in all Warhammer could have been really worse and grind focused like other PvE orientated games by having a xp death penalty for PvP and PvE (lucky I'm not making a game).

Originally posted by Frobner

Alot of players are calling Asian MMOs nothing other than grindfests.  Still - WAR has a renown rank of 80 that very few ppl have already got.  And those that got it are usualyy of certain classes that have it EASIER to gain renown than others.

I just desided to bring this up since JH was talking about the weakest parts of WAR.  Personally - when I found out renown had 80 ranks (not just 40) then I first realised the game wasn't for me.  Forced longterm PVPing while having no PVE content of same level made me loose all intrest in the game.  There was just no way I was gonna play a tank class and try to get to renown rank 80....  

is it a grind? Yes

Is it the biggest grind? No.

Look at Lineage 2 level grind, look at EQ1 AA systems hell just EQ1's original leveling system, War may be nasty, but its nothing like the "Good ole days" heh

I think WARs a crap game and yes the ronown is a grind but other games have the same sort hell even in it's frist year or so WOW had it's pvp rank grind which was a hell of alot worse than any grind in WAR.

Originally posted by Torak

Originally posted by BoudahXL

Renown is no longer a grind since most old timer PvP'ers are gone from the game. What you need to do is fire up IRC client and connect to WAR channel.

Basically most RR80 you see today are from dueling aka crest trading... I hear some players get as much as 10 RR level a week doing some dueling and about 2-3 levels in the range of 70-80 end game renown.

Sad thing is all those players are hitting end game level but cannot get the warlord/sovereign pieces since you cannot arrange for enough people to cheat you into IC or King.

The state of the game is so ridiculous players are openly admiting crossrealming and crest trading on forums and nobody get banned or thread lock for doing so. The crew behind the game is a farce.

 

But if the game was all it was going to be and backed up by a large enough player base, renown(RR) would one of the biggest  MMO grind fest, requiring much more time and effort than epic gears in WoW, even pre-expansion.

Wow, there is a load shot straight from ... If you are going to make outlandish claims like that at least have the decency to provide some links to your sources as proof.

 

OP - ever play Lineage 2? On it's worse day, WAR couldn't even touch L2's grind.

 

Sigh... Just because you don't know something doesn't mean it's not there... Here are two links so you know which nicknames, thread subject to search for. Geee are people so much in denial that they don't see or can't google this stuff up?I will include quotes from those thread so you know what to look for.There at least 20+ different threads about duels and crossrealming on Badlands forum section alone. None of those players got suspended nor those thread got locked.

I want to duel peeps before you all quit! Just like in Ristlin's post, let me know here if you wanna duel, and we can set up a time/place.

Gah, where were you guys when I was on my sorc?!?

http://forums.warhammeronline.com/warhammer/board/message?board.id=server_bl&message.id=14820&query.id=86271#M14820

http://forums.warhammeronline.com/warhammer/board/message?board.id=server_bl&message.id=14971#M14971

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Originally posted by Frobner

Forced longterm PVPing while having no PVE content of same level made me loose all intrest in the game.  There was just no way I was gonna play a tank class and try to get to renown rank 80....

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This was the main problem early.

The first month was great for casual people. You log in, hit a few scenarios and up to about level 20 or so, you easily kept up with your renoun and level ranks, because not that much was required. It was easy to keep a character 12/12 or 17/17 and stay geared and competitive.

The problem happened after that when people started leaving due to one thing or another. Then you had servers like mine, Tor Achere, that were dead early. You'd log on at 20/16 hoping to get some more renoun levels to wear a piece of gear you had in your bank for 3 of 4 levels but the sparse PvP combatants made it impossible.

So you did PvE in the meantime not to be bored, and kept widening the gap in your level. Soon you were at 25/20, 28/22 and it got more and more stretched. If you were the lucky few on ones like Dark Crag or Praag you didn't have this problem for the most part. But most on just about every other server did. Soon, the gear you finally had enough renoun to put on was useless because your level was 5 past it and garbage gear mobs dropped was better. Sad.

Mythic made a mistake by not giving PvE quests renoun to keep pace so that if you missed the prime time hours of battle (2hour window), you weren't left out in the cold later on. They shouldn't have made it were you totally got as much as you got from PvP by PvEing, but they didn't have it in the quests worth anything. So unless you had people to kill, your character was out of whack by 40. By the time you hit certain levels, the gear was simply too much to overcome when fighting people or doing the bigger dungeons where the mob bosses killed you easily.

This was a retarded design.

the problem is not the design here, it's the population, or better, lack thereof.

Warhammer really IS fun with balanced and active population. It's not a milestone of MMORPG-grandeur, but it's solid and fun - with the right population.

So funny, because you actually don't need to bond with anyone to compete in this game, but you need other egomaniac players to enter SCs or zerg down RvR goals...

M

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Originally posted by Meridion
the problem is not the design here, it's the population, or better, lack thereof.

Warhammer really IS fun with balanced and active population. It's not a milestone of MMORPG-grandeur, but it's solid and fun - with the right population.
So funny, because you actually don't need to bond with anyone to compete in this game, but you need other egomaniac players to enter SCs or zerg down RvR goals...
M

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That's why I say the design is retarded. It ONLY depends on population. Without that, it fails. That's why a game like AoC was able to last as long as it has even though it was just as bad as WAR; because it wasn't a population dependant game.

The renoun problem caused a lot of people not to want to slug it out to 80. And while some gear wasn't really that big of an improvement due to Mythic's shoddy speccing like putting a bunch of toughness on Shaman stuff or something, when a 40/40 person went up against a 40/80 person properly geared it wasn't fun.

The renoun should have been able to get through regular quests at a decent rate to allow people who couldn't always be on at prime time to stay geared and competitive.

This game is the worst when you have gear that you earned weeks ago, but simply cannot wear renoun wise because the other subscriptions are watching the World Series, Seinfeld reruns, or studying for a test.

No other game punishes you in this way not allowing you to wear earned gear after chasing it for weeks, then having to hold it for weeks and that's why they limp along while WAR is destined to crash. It's simply too population dependant.

I play WAR since launch and dude i don't think the RR grind its that bad, my original toon was a BO got him to RR65 before i retire him, now i'm l play a choppa he is RR67 yes sometimes it  gets boring when you dont find any RVR going besides SCs, also alot has to do  on what server you at and  how active your guild is, i'm over in Badlands(US) and there is always SCs and ORVR  popping on all tiers from 1-4 the only time that gets slow its around 2-10 am  but still the lower tiers (1-2) always i mean always have ORVR, so i woudn't say that the RRsystem its the BIGGEST GRIND FEST.

Now saying that oRvR is boring is kind a exaggerating. It can be repetetive if you force yourself do grind renown; but heck, why would you do that? It's meant to join in and play for a while. Grinding it is useless since it doesn't offer you any new content. You can play the whole game without grinding renown... 

In other, PvE centric games you grind to see all the content (sets, tiers, radiance, you name it) or be able to compete in PvP... But why on earth would you grind renown in WAR? And don't tell me you need the rank and the 'supercool looking'-set just for your epeen, that would be poor...

M

The renown system in WAR was not one of the major issues with the game. Heck i found it pretty easy to get renown and all I did was oRvR (I never played Sc's as I hated the format) The only way renown failed hardcore was giving renown for BO's and Keeps. Major failure there since it prompted the great circle-jerk of keep/BO swapping. There were people at renown 80 4 months into the game simply running around doing this. Sad.

WARs issues were the major use of CC and the tragic class balance swings that happened over and over. My Mains were an Ironbreker (Who mostly stayed OP for the duration of my playing) and hit RR 50 something. A KoTBS who mostly stayed shite (After the 2s reflect nerf) who also hit 50 and an Archmage who had issues the whole time I played it as well. (AMs were the best ST healers but had no real defence at all so any PvP was painful as hell) The AM was my highest hitting near RR60. All this in the 4-5 Months I played WAR. So no I dont think renown was a major grind. If I could get 3 characters to the 50-60 levels in 5 months? (Admittedly on my KoTBS I "did" the circle jerk to catch up .. the other two did not)

As for the OPs point. Naw nothing like the grinds in other games. AA's in EQ come to mind. Lineage comes to mind. Any F2P will show you real grind. how ab out abyssal points in Aion? Thats another real grind if you want level 50 gear. So in short. Nope Renown is not a grind.

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Originally posted by demarc01

The renown system in WAR was not one of the major issues with the game. Heck i found it pretty easy to get renown and all I did was oRvR (I never played Sc's as I hated the format)

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What server?

Because the issues I have been talking about (lack of renown) hit hardest on servers where you can't oRvR because the populations are too low. If you are a player who can only play during the day on MOST servers, you simply cannot keep your renoun up if you are solely depending on RvR. Dark Crag, Praag, and the other few ones never had that problem, but the vast majority of the servers did and that's why people quit along with the technical problems. Any other MMO will allow you to log on during an offtime and complete missions, quests or content that allowed you to pretty much keep pace with everyone else. If you didn't land on a thriving server in WAR, you couldn't do that.

I do see people saying that all the time about "plenty of RvR", yet you don't see many people at 80 for some reason.

Any game that requires XP to level is a grind fest... I don't know what people are looking for, maybe instant uber toons? If they didn't make you actually work for your level/renown then what would be the point of the game? You could go play Counter-strike or Halo if you wanted instant gratification.

*sigh* I am sure most people would feel the same way about the classics like EQ and AC.

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Originally posted by superninja42

Any game that requires XP to level is a grind fest... I don't know what people are looking for, maybe instant uber toons?

If they didn't make you actually work for your level/renown then what would be the point of the game? You could go play Counter-strike or Halo if you wanted instant gratification.

*sigh* I am sure most people would feel the same way about the classics like EQ and AC.

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Then that would make WAR a two way grindfest.

First you have to grind for levels, then you have to grind for renoun. Not many other games make you do that just to wear the next piece of gear, and that's half of the problem.

Especially when one of those grind paths Mythic requires doesn't work because the game cannot hold a stable population to due bad planning and worse implementation.

Again, you'll find in this game the vast majority of people will have a regular level over their renoun level because there wasn't enough PvP action on the vast majority of servers to keep pace. It was also dumb that when the levels finally met, say 20/20.. you couldn't keep moving forward with the renoun to make it 20/25 or something then you had to go back and PvE. Why should you be forced to stop doing that when you were having fun, but now can't move anymore on the renoun front until you get another level? It's not like there was ever any danger in this game of having a 20/40 person if that was allowed. But yet the PvE level kept rising and rising, while your renoun stayed stagnant.

This lack of PvP on most servers and the way they originally designed this game (making it easier to get renoun by AVOIDING enemies) was a crippling blow.

It is only a grind if you make it one. It is your choice how much, or how little, or even how you get RR. If you do it hardcore and single mindedly then YOU make it a grind.

I mean there HAVE been great improvements in the RvR system with rising the incentives for actually engaging enemies, holding keeps and stuff.

Still the main focus which has always been the great master-core-piece of WAR, besieging and conquering the enemy capital, slaying their king, plundering and looting, are still the mightiest letdown of them all.

Mythic, for god's sake, fix this, make conquering, plundering and tearing down the capitals _the_ central place you want to be.

M

Might I bring to light that the real meaning of the word grind is killing the same mobs or enemies over and over again to get XP? Sieging (although, real sieges last weeks/days), scenarios, and other forms of PvP are not grinding, unless of course you get your Order friend to be killed by your Chosen over and over for renown.

Originally posted by Toxilium

Might I bring to light that the real meaning of the word grind is killing the same mobs or enemies over and over again to get XP? Sieging (although, real sieges last weeks/days), scenarios, and other forms of PvP are not grinding, unless of course you get your Order friend to be killed by your Chosen over and over for renown.

You've got the meaning of grinding wrong as well it means doing the same thing repetitively just the most common grind is killing the same mob consently, so yes the scenarios and keeps are a grind if you keep doing the same ones overe and over again.

Originally posted by markoraos

Dunno, I never perceived it as grind.

I play the game to have fun and Renown happens. I don't play the game to get renown.

I never could understand people who play mmos to "achieve" something. I play games to have fun, and if that entails occasional achievements then so be it, but I always keep my priorities straight. RL is for achievements, games are for fun.

And besides I don't think anyone is "supposed" to reach RR80. In fact before the release devs stated on numerous occasions that  RR80 is basically unachievable in any practical sense and that when several players somehow do manage to reach it the RR cap will be increased. Renown should be like money - you can always get more and you're never supposed to reach the "cap". The cheat described above throws a cog into this system and that's not cool at all.

I agree.  I have the same mindset when I log in to play a mmo.  I have a feeling that among the many other reasons why WAR has suffered, this "playing to achieve" instead of playing for fun is one of the things that  may have added to the games negative reputation lately.

Originally posted by Tymora

Originally posted by markoraos

Dunno, I never perceived it as grind.

I play the game to have fun and Renown happens. I don't play the game to get renown.

I never could understand people who play mmos to "achieve" something. I play games to have fun, and if that entails occasional achievements then so be it, but I always keep my priorities straight. RL is for achievements, games are for fun.

And besides I don't think anyone is "supposed" to reach RR80. In fact before the release devs stated on numerous occasions that  RR80 is basically unachievable in any practical sense and that when several players somehow do manage to reach it the RR cap will be increased. Renown should be like money - you can always get more and you're never supposed to reach the "cap". The cheat described above throws a cog into this system and that's not cool at all.

 

I agree.  I have the same mindset when I log in to play a mmo.  I have a feeling that among the many other reasons why WAR has suffered, this "playing to achieve" instead of playing for fun is one of the things that  may have added to the games negative reputation lately.

Well someone pulled out the data about the amount of players that reached RR80, and the results are pretty interesting.

Class vs Class, more healers and RDPS than any other class type are RR80, I'm pretty sure eveyone play for fun but an equal chance at getting something is fun too.

Faction vs Faction, there are a lot more RR80 for the Orders than Destro something like 160 vs 100, again one might play for fun, but I'm pretty sure everyone pay  the same 15$/month.

It all boils down to this, while you can make a PvP in order to succeed for a mmo company your biggest challenge will be to create the illusion that both side have the same chance of winning.

A small example would be an arena PvP:

-Both players receive the same amount of PvP XP

-The winner get to choose the color of his new weapon while the other doesn't

You see this is a very very limited example, but the result will be the same both players got a candy, one won and one lost. But for the losing side it's still interesting to come back as you have nothing to lose. In the end you get to keep both players playing. But for the competitive players he's getting more, the color of his weapon that he can show off, it has the same stats but it will look different than the losing side. It's all about creating the illusion.

In Warhammer you lose, you get less XP, you get less gear, you get less areas you control. There is nothing much going to encourage the losing side to stay really. Now add some factors that the winning side is zerging, that many "mirror" classes are imbalanced, now I think everyone get the picture why everyone left the game.