People need to stop pretending that MMOs pre WoW were something special.. They were new and different from other genres.. Thats it.

UO was a Gankfest / Grindfest.

EQ was a Grindfest.

DAoC was a Grindfest.

This why WoW is so popular.. Blizzard lessened the grind to where people can progress and have fun along the way. Not that old and tired camp X area for 3 levels then move to Z area for another 4 all the while killing the same area over and over again for weeks at a time.

The only people who seem to care about the old games are the ones still stuck with the elitist attitude even as adults. Then you have others who insist on letting nostalgia dilute there thinking. Nothing is ever what you remember.

Oh and please stop with the whole " community " bit.. Its hilarious. Quit pretending already. UO and EQ were full of idiots too you know. You had people demanding 10p for a teleport after the fact or others who would send you some pretty bad /tells if you happened to be afk while they asked for a SoW.. Morons are in every game but the community is what you make of it and more often than not you attract people that are like you...

i'm not reading through 8 pages of QQ's, rants, and fanbois.  I am just going to speak my piece.

Everyone is saying WOW is the standard. I agree that Devs and Investers are thinking that. How ever run the list of WOW clones in your head. Now run the list of successful WOW clones in your head. Pretty soon they have to wake up, and see that the WOW standard does not get the job done.

Everyone says that WOW is a bad game. List 3 Good games that are still running with good numbers.

For the record I played WOW for 4 years but stopped because it got old.

Coming from a pen and paper background, what I found exciting in mmos like original EQ was the thrill of the transition to being "in" a fantasy world, as opposed to having to imagine one while rolling dice. Back in the day as I was first headed up to Crushbone Castle, my knees were knocking and I was completely creeped out.  Now,  8-10 mmos later (including WoW), that emotion is gone. I never feel anymore like I am "in" a fantasy world - instead, I am just moving a pixilated avatar through a series of obstacles in search of better clothes.

What will constitute the next generation of mmos, at least for me, is not a question of hard versus easy, fast versus slow progression, or any of the other hot button community board design issues, but one where it feels like I am in the game again. I see nothing on the table at the moment, either released or pending, that looks to offer that. But, it will come. Eventually games like WoW will be remembered fondly but will look like pong in terms of genuine player immersion.

Honestly, when your primary focus is how much damage you do on a damage meter or whether you have the latest tiered gear, does it even matter that you are in a fantasy setting? There's nothing wrong with loot and gear, but first and foremost I want to be in a world that fills me with awe and wonder and excitement and dread. If I'm not getting that, having great loot in a superficial and uninspiring world just doesn't captivate me.

WoW didn't ruin the genre. WoW took what was available at the time and did it better than the other games that were out. Want to blame folks? Want to point fingers? Then do it by bitching about all the "new" MMO's that  are being developed. You know the ones that just try to improve on whats available but fail. The ones that promise something new but don't? Not one company in the last few years has even tried to do something different. It's all variations of what came before. They see the success that is WoW and want their slice of the pie.

 It's hard to goto investors as a development company and say "Hey I know that WoW is making billions a year" but we want to develop something entirely new that might possibly rival it. Can we get 50  million dollars? Or they can goto the investors and say "Hey we have a game that's kinda like WoW but different enough that we will get 250k subscribers and make a good amount of money, can we get 50 million dollars?"

The more I think about it, the more I realize that people hating WoW mostly do it because it's the cool thing to do. WoW is not much simpler that any other modern MMO out there it is more streamlined. It is designed to reward a player more often than other MMOs but it is not much easier or harder.

Take Aion for example. WoW offers much more in terms of character development. Different specs, different armor types, enchants, glyphs, gems. What does Aion have? Stigmas? That's sort of like the Glyph system in WoW.

Take raids and even instances. After experiencing them in certain modern MMOs, WoW actually requires more coordination amongst the group. Most boss battles require a particular approach, they aren't a simple tank and spank, like in other MMOs.

Quests. I hate to bring up Aion again but the game shows you exactly where to go for your quest. At least WoW doesn't do that, it just gives you a hint of where to go. It doesn't highlight an area on the map like Aion, AoC and WAR do.

Besides which, most of the newer quests are varied and entertaining. Name another MMO where you ride siege engines and motorcycles as part of a raid? Or a quest where you have to spear a dragon through the mouth as it's flying around, trying to knock you off and eat you?

Originally posted by heartless

The more I think about it, the more I realize that people hating WoW mostly do it because it's the cool thing to do. WoW is not much simpler that any other modern MMO out there it is more streamlined. It is designed to reward a player more often than other MMOs but it is not much easier or harder.

Take Aion for example. WoW offers much more in terms of character development. Different specs, different armor types, enchants, glyphs, gems. What does Aion have? Stigmas? That's sort of like the Glyph system in WoW.

Take raids and even instances. After experiencing them in certain modern MMOs, WoW actually requires more coordination amongst the group. Most boss battles require a particular approach, they aren't a simple tank and spank, like in other MMOs.

Quests. I hate to bring up Aion again but the game shows you exactly where to go for your quest. At least WoW doesn't do that, it just gives you a hint of where to go. It doesn't highlight an area on the map like Aion, AoC and WAR do.

Besides which, most of the newer quests are varied and entertaining. Name another MMO where you ride siege engines and motorcycles as part of a raid? Or a quest where you have to spear a dragon through the mouth as it's flying around, trying to knock you off and eat you?

Forget it. People want to be in love with AION --- the new female kid. They don't listen now.

Have another go in 3 months time when they'll realise they have been making love to a travestite.

Seeing those graphs and mechs, that's about the only word I can think of right now. But hey that's just MY opinion of course.

Free world.

Originally posted by Frostbite05

WoW made playing an mmo socially exceptable be thankful for that. Blame developers for the crap games that keep coming out not WoW

I have to agree with this.  Blizzard is running a business.  All they did (and continue to do)  was/is  make what they felt people wanted, and apparently....about 11 million of them still DO, in varying degrees, so.....how it's their fault that other devs choose not to take the  financial risk and stray from that formula, is beyond me. GREED is ruining MMOs, not Blizzard.

The developers that persist in making WoW-esque style games are really at fault here, no matter HOW you want to try to spin it. People tend to forget that gaming is a business. Blizzard happened to execute their business plan at the perfect time, plus....they had a built in following from previous games they had made.  I don't know how people can continually blame them for their timely good fortune. wtf?

Still....I anxiously await for that developer that will be balls-to-the-wall determined to create something different and be able to get the financial backing to actually produce something cutting-edge. However....it seems....true to gamer form....that every time a developer TRIES to step outside the box....the gaming community (at least on forums) shoots them down and insists their game sucks (which may or may not be true).

So for myself....I just intend to keep trying new games as they come and hope for the best.

Originally posted by Frostbite05

WoW made playing an mmo socially exceptable be thankful for that. Blame developers for the crap games that keep coming out not WoW

Not to burst any bubbles. But i would have perfered if wow never came out. And that's me being nice. MMORPGS were always exceptable in my book.

But if it makes you feel any better i blame the developers too for being so greedy and wanting WoW's pie. Yes wow was a good game in its own right.  No it wasn't good for the genre. In other words it was TOO good in numbers.. and everyone wanted to copy. Now we are stuck in a mindless cycle of games coming out with npcs having quest indicators over thier head, easy mode mini map indicators... solo friendly play... hmm..

just my humble opinion.

Originally posted by ArcheusCross

Originally posted by Frostbite05

WoW made playing an mmo socially exceptable be thankful for that. Blame developers for the crap games that keep coming out not WoW

Not to burst any bubbles. But i would have perfered if wow never came out. And that's me being nice. MMORPGS were always exceptable in my book.

But if it makes you feel any better i blame the developers too for being so greedy and wanting WoW's pie. Yes wow was a good game in its own right.  No it wasn't good for the genre. In other words it was TOO good in numbers.. and everyone wanted to copy. Now we are stuck in a mindless cycle of games coming out with npcs having quest indicators over thier head, easy mode mini map indicators... solo friendly play... hmm..

just my humble opinion.

All of those are good things for most, just not for u. Solo friendly = great. Convenient and jump right into action = great.

Players demand thsoe features (or code them in add-ons if they dont get it) and they got it.

What exactly is socially exceptable? A social exception?

.

Originally posted by highshooter

sounds like your friend has been burnt-out by WoW.

 

I quit WoW 3 years ago to get a life and because I hated the kiddie community left over from when all the good pplz left. 

After playing Aion OB with a few guildies, I've never been so excited for a new release in all the years I've played MMOs!

WoW was not my first MMO thank god or else i'd be just as desensitized to the MMORPG genre as the millions of WoW players playing a spoon-fed theme park game.

I agree with you that WoW must die, it's setting a bad example to new gamers and vets alike.  If your main dislike of Aion is because you actually get challenged in a way that WoW never did then allow me to say this again..

 

WoW burnt you out from the MMORPG genre and honestly there is NO new MMO that will ever catch your interest until you take a good long break from MMOs in general.

 

I couldn't stand WoW for more than 6 months at a time and would only come back when they added new content... eventually you start to see the world outside of the carrot-on-a-stick and taking a long vacation from it will help you find new enthusiasm for MMOs.

good luck to your friend.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Do not blame WOW that other products can't reach and turn out the same success rate.

The more you will blame WOW, the more you reinforce the theory that it stands out miles above the rest.

"WOW is the most succesful game in revenus in the complete history of video gaming".

No other single product comes even close.

The reason is simple: out of the 100% market of paid subscription based MMO's, 80% choose to play WOW.

Or did you find ANY other game in the last 30 years that generated more than 200 million dollars on a YEARLY basis?

Nope, well... WOW makes around 1.2 BILLION dollars on a yearly revenu.

It makes up for the standard of mmo play. Like it or not.

 -----> You don't like that standard? Pity, you represent 2 % of the people, because the other 18% are badly fabricated copies of what Blizzard offers in PVE/PVP/World design and simply ... great gameplay. 80% of the complete market that consists of what 50+ sub based games ...

Learn to respect the majority.

I'll start off this way.  If we respected the majority, the USA wouldn't exist.

I was waiting for the first fanboi post of this thread, I knew it was coming.  Arguing points that have nothing to do with the topic of this post, just to look at the words you type.  WoW is successful on a scale that has not been reached by any other game developer in the history of the industry.  We all know this.  The OP knows it, as well as everyone else that is reading.  Why you have to hammer home things that are already known is just a silly thought in my opinion.  The vast majority of gamers are playing WoW.  And why not?  It is really the best out there.  However, not once did you mention reasons why.  Well, I'll give you something to chew on.

I quit WoW over a year ago when I realized how incredibly mind numbing it was to have to devote the rest of my life away from work to a game in order to be successful at it.  I understand you have to put work in.  I did.  I was geared out in T2 before burning crusade.  I bought it, grinded to 70.  And while I was grinding rep one day, I asked myself..  "Why am I doing this?".  I didn't have an answer, and have not played since.  It's the same game over and over.  It's not my preferred game, and that is all.. but what I'm really getting at is..

And this should make you think..  You are right, Blizzard has so many subscriptions because there is not a better game out there.. WoW is a huge success.  However, think about it on the other side.  Blizzard has so many subscriptions because there is not a better game out there.  Does that mean WoW is great?  Or.. does that mean the MMO industry as a whole is nothing but garbage, with the king of garbage at the top?  Think about it.  We have quite a few single player games that are amazing.  There are revolutionary ideas all the time.  MMO's are expensive.. but you'd think someone would go out there and put that same kind of effort and creativity into a MMO.  Just because instances PvP and PvE is successful doesn't mean you can't add other things into the mix. 

Problem is, these indie companies are trying to be TOO different.  Full loot is fine.  Player run economies are fine.  Seemless, instanceless worlds, sure.  But, some of these companies are going way off into left field, attempting to do something radical.  I have plenty of ideas.. Unltimately, the path away from WoW is going to be difficult and long,  No one is doing it right.  And that.. is unfortunate.

Originally posted by Hrothmund

What exactly is socially exceptable? A social exception?

lol

Didn't your mother ever tell you that it's socially unacceptable to correct people on web forums for incorrect spelling? ;)

Originally posted by grandpagamer

 Blizz is to MMO's what the Wii is to console gaming.

Dumb comparison.  Wii innovated, Blizzard did not.  I don't think you played Wii, especially the most popular games.  Wii Resort is a blast.

Blizzard is best descrived as the McDonalds/Bud Light/Coke of MMOs.  Cheap, watered down crap but consistent with high brand name recognition.

Originally posted by Hydroblunt

Originally posted by grandpagamer

 Blizz is to MMO's what the Wii is to console gaming.

 

Dumb comparison.  Wii innovated, Blizzard did not.  I don't think you played Wii, especially the most popular games.  Wii Resort is a blast.

Blizzard is best descrived as the McDonalds/Bud Light/Coke of MMOs.  Cheap, watered down crap but consistent with high brand name recognition.

That Bliz/MCDonalds comparison is also known as the moron's comparison.

@OP

So your ONE Friend has issues that Aion isn't spoon feeding him content and you say that makes WoW the problem?

First off WoW doesn't have quest helper or carbonite built into it, PLAYERS made those mods that tell you what to do.  

Second off, you basing your opinion of an entire game off of your buddy is foolish and illogical.  I'm sure many people will tell you that an individual can never represent a whole.

Aion is a fine game, so is WoW. 

I quit WoW over a year ago when I realized how incredibly mind numbing it was to have to devote the rest of my life away from work to a game in order to be successful at it. I understand you have to put work in. I did. I was geared out in T2 before burning crusade. I bought it, grinded to 70. And while I was grinding rep one day, I asked myself.. "Why am I doing this?". I didn't have an answer, and have not played since. It's the same game over and over. It's not my preferred game, and that is all.. but what I'm really getting at is..

You are asking too much. It is a freaking GAME. You are doing it because it is fun. You stop when it is no longer fun. It is that simple. Any game that can hold yours (and mine) attention for years is a monumental achievement.

And this should make you think.. You are right, Blizzard has so many subscriptions because there is not a better game out there.. WoW is a huge success. However, think about it on the other side. Blizzard has so many subscriptions because there is not a better game out there. Does that mean WoW is great? Or.. does that mean the MMO industry as a whole is nothing but garbage, with the king of garbage at the top? Think about it. We have quite a few single player games that are amazing. There are revolutionary ideas all the time. MMO's are expensive.. but you'd think someone would go out there and put that same kind of effort and creativity into a MMO. Just because instances PvP and PvE is successful doesn't mean you can't add other things into the mix.

The answer is simple: Wow is great. Why? Because there are OTHER entertainment options out there. Sure, there may not be a lot of competition in MMO space but people can play SP games, can go to movies, reading, parties, parks, you name it ...

The fact that so many people choose WOW as their entertainment means that wow beat not only other MMOs, but other alternative of spending their time too.

You are thinking too much. MMOs are entertainment. People play them for fun. WOW is fun (and prob more fun to many than other forms of entertainment). That is about it. There is no mystery of the meaning of the universe here.

I was waiting for the first fanboi post of this thread, I knew it was coming.  Arguing points that have nothing to do with the topic of this post, just to look at the words you type.  WoW is successful on a scale that has not been reached by any other game developer in the history of the industry.  We all know this.  The OP knows it, as well as everyone else that is reading.  Why you have to hammer home things that are already known is just a silly thought in my opinion.  The vast majority of gamers are playing WoW.  And why not?  It is really the best out there.  However, not once did you mention reasons why.  Well, I'll give you something to chew on.

It WAS successful because it was a new and well polished spin on an old system and genre and it has maintained that because of two main reasons:

1) People fear change, and even get defensive when something comes around that can threaten the status quo

2) There hasn't been any competition until recently that was polished and developed well enough to compete.

 

And this should make you think..  You are right, Blizzard has so many subscriptions because there is not a better game out there.. WoW is a huge success.  However, think about it on the other side.  Blizzard has so many subscriptions because there is not a better game out there.  Does that mean WoW is great?  Or.. does that mean the MMO industry as a whole is nothing but garbage, with the king of garbage at the top?  Think about it.  We have quite a few single player games that are amazing.  There are revolutionary ideas all the time.  MMO's are expensive.. but you'd think someone would go out there and put that same kind of effort and creativity into a MMO.  Just because instances PvP and PvE is successful doesn't mean you can't add other things into the mix. 

Flat out wrong about WoW's success but you are correct about the overall MMO market.  There is a better game out there but it's going to take time for people to realize that and get past the fact that WoW isn't the end all be all of the MMO world.  See above.

 Problem is, these indie companies are trying to be TOO different.  Full loot is fine.  Player run economies are fine.  Seemless, instanceless worlds, sure.  But, some of these companies are going way off into left field, attempting to do something radical.  I have plenty of ideas.. Unltimately, the path away from WoW is going to be difficult and long,  No one is doing it right.  And that.. is unfortunate.

Who do you suppose is to blame for that?  If you pointed in your own general direction you win a cookie.  The fact is that these companies are looking for the quick win and we keep showing them that we are willing to buy what they put out there.  That coupled with our ridiculous expectations as far as time lines is what drives the same old same old being put back on the shelves with a new name that we will buy.  Do you know there was a poll out there that asked if we would either rather wait for an MMO title to take their time or do it right or to meet the deadline and deal with bugs that majority chose deal with bugs?  Which is pretty stupid because as soon as they encounter those bugs it's QQ city and doom and destruction for the game.

Originally posted by Hydroblunt

Originally posted by grandpagamer

 Blizz is to MMO's what the Wii is to console gaming.

 

Dumb comparison.  Wii innovated, Blizzard did not.  I don't think you played Wii, especially the most popular games.  Wii Resort is a blast.

Blizzard is best descrived as the McDonalds/Bud Light/Coke of MMOs.  Cheap, watered down crap but consistent with high brand name recognition.

My comparison was that  Wii like Blizz both have dumbed down the gaming experience. I have been looking at consoles and what i see nintendo releasing to the Wii is games for people that dont play games. Other than Mario Galaxy and a yet to be named Zelda game the only thing the Wii offers of interest is their virtual console games. As for  Blizzard they to offer a gaming experience for people who dont play games. So while i may be dumb i do know what i like to play and Blizz and the Wii do not offer anything.  And yes ive played the Wii,  at my daughters....she has one for her little girls if that says anything.

Originally posted by grandpagamer

Originally posted by Hydroblunt

Originally posted by grandpagamer

 Blizz is to MMO's what the Wii is to console gaming.

 

Dumb comparison.  Wii innovated, Blizzard did not.  I don't think you played Wii, especially the most popular games.  Wii Resort is a blast.

Blizzard is best descrived as the McDonalds/Bud Light/Coke of MMOs.  Cheap, watered down crap but consistent with high brand name recognition.

My comparison was that  Wii like Blizz both have dumbed down the gaming experience. I have been looking at consoles and what i see nintendo releasing to the Wii is games for people that dont play games. Other than Mario Galaxy and a yet to be named Zelda game the only thing the Wii offers of interest is their virtual console games. As for  Blizzard they to offer a gaming experience for people who dont play games. So while i may be dumb i do know what i like to play and Blizz and the Wii do not offer anything.  And yes ive played the Wii,  at my daughters....she has one for her little girls if that says anything.

Nah, competitive playing in WoW is harder than most current MMOs, but of course, your arrogance won't accept it.
Oh and comparing Blizzard with a food company? Really...?

Originally posted by Thenarius

Originally posted by grandpagamer

Originally posted by Hydroblunt

Originally posted by grandpagamer

 Blizz is to MMO's what the Wii is to console gaming.

 

Dumb comparison.  Wii innovated, Blizzard did not.  I don't think you played Wii, especially the most popular games.  Wii Resort is a blast.

Blizzard is best descrived as the McDonalds/Bud Light/Coke of MMOs.  Cheap, watered down crap but consistent with high brand name recognition.

My comparison was that  Wii like Blizz both have dumbed down the gaming experience. I have been looking at consoles and what i see nintendo releasing to the Wii is games for people that dont play games. Other than Mario Galaxy and a yet to be named Zelda game the only thing the Wii offers of interest is their virtual console games. As for  Blizzard they to offer a gaming experience for people who dont play games. So while i may be dumb i do know what i like to play and Blizz and the Wii do not offer anything.  And yes ive played the Wii,  at my daughters....she has one for her little girls if that says anything.

Nah, competitive playing in WoW is harder than most current MMOs, but of course, your arrogance won't accept it.
Oh and comparing Blizzard with a food company? Really...?

I have played WOW and several of the MMO's WOW has spawned. But my arrogance will not allow me to  play the dumbed down MMO's of the WOW generation, you are correct. This thread is if WOW has degraded MMO's overall and my opinion is yes it has. You like WOW then play WOW some of us want better.

Originally posted by grandpagamer

Originally posted by Thenarius

Originally posted by grandpagamer

Originally posted by Hydroblunt

Originally posted by grandpagamer

 Blizz is to MMO's what the Wii is to console gaming.

 

Dumb comparison.  Wii innovated, Blizzard did not.  I don't think you played Wii, especially the most popular games.  Wii Resort is a blast.

Blizzard is best descrived as the McDonalds/Bud Light/Coke of MMOs.  Cheap, watered down crap but consistent with high brand name recognition.

My comparison was that  Wii like Blizz both have dumbed down the gaming experience. I have been looking at consoles and what i see nintendo releasing to the Wii is games for people that dont play games. Other than Mario Galaxy and a yet to be named Zelda game the only thing the Wii offers of interest is their virtual console games. As for  Blizzard they to offer a gaming experience for people who dont play games. So while i may be dumb i do know what i like to play and Blizz and the Wii do not offer anything.  And yes ive played the Wii,  at my daughters....she has one for her little girls if that says anything.

Nah, competitive playing in WoW is harder than most current MMOs, but of course, your arrogance won't accept it.
Oh and comparing Blizzard with a food company? Really...?

I have played WOW and several of the MMO's WOW has spawned. But my arrogance will not allow me to  play the dumbed down MMO's of the WOW generation, you are correct. This thread is if WOW has degraded MMO's overall and my opinion is yes it has. You like WOW then play WOW some of us want better.

Yeah because adding more grind makes the game so much damn harder. I really wonder what would you consider a hard game? L2 in C2-C3? Well then,say time consuming not hard. WoW actually tests your personal skill and ability to sync and paly with your teammates as a team in both high-end PvE and PvP.

Originally posted by Thenarius

Originally posted by grandpagamer

Originally posted by Thenarius

Originally posted by grandpagamer

Originally posted by Hydroblunt

Originally posted by grandpagamer

 Blizz is to MMO's what the Wii is to console gaming.

 

Dumb comparison.  Wii innovated, Blizzard did not.  I don't think you played Wii, especially the most popular games.  Wii Resort is a blast.

Blizzard is best descrived as the McDonalds/Bud Light/Coke of MMOs.  Cheap, watered down crap but consistent with high brand name recognition.

My comparison was that  Wii like Blizz both have dumbed down the gaming experience. I have been looking at consoles and what i see nintendo releasing to the Wii is games for people that dont play games. Other than Mario Galaxy and a yet to be named Zelda game the only thing the Wii offers of interest is their virtual console games. As for  Blizzard they to offer a gaming experience for people who dont play games. So while i may be dumb i do know what i like to play and Blizz and the Wii do not offer anything.  And yes ive played the Wii,  at my daughters....she has one for her little girls if that says anything.

Nah, competitive playing in WoW is harder than most current MMOs, but of course, your arrogance won't accept it.
Oh and comparing Blizzard with a food company? Really...?

I have played WOW and several of the MMO's WOW has spawned. But my arrogance will not allow me to  play the dumbed down MMO's of the WOW generation, you are correct. This thread is if WOW has degraded MMO's overall and my opinion is yes it has. You like WOW then play WOW some of us want better.

Yeah because adding more grind makes the game so much damn harder. I really wonder what would you consider a hard game? L2 in C2-C3? Well then,say time consuming not hard. WoW actually tests your personal skill and ability to sync and paly with your teammates as a team in both high-end PvE and PvP.

Ok.

Originally posted by grandpagamer

Originally posted by Thenarius

Originally posted by grandpagamer

Originally posted by Thenarius

Originally posted by grandpagamer

Originally posted by Hydroblunt

Originally posted by grandpagamer

 Blizz is to MMO's what the Wii is to console gaming.

 

Dumb comparison.  Wii innovated, Blizzard did not.  I don't think you played Wii, especially the most popular games.  Wii Resort is a blast.

Blizzard is best descrived as the McDonalds/Bud Light/Coke of MMOs.  Cheap, watered down crap but consistent with high brand name recognition.

My comparison was that  Wii like Blizz both have dumbed down the gaming experience. I have been looking at consoles and what i see nintendo releasing to the Wii is games for people that dont play games. Other than Mario Galaxy and a yet to be named Zelda game the only thing the Wii offers of interest is their virtual console games. As for  Blizzard they to offer a gaming experience for people who dont play games. So while i may be dumb i do know what i like to play and Blizz and the Wii do not offer anything.  And yes ive played the Wii,  at my daughters....she has one for her little girls if that says anything.

Nah, competitive playing in WoW is harder than most current MMOs, but of course, your arrogance won't accept it.
Oh and comparing Blizzard with a food company? Really...?

I have played WOW and several of the MMO's WOW has spawned. But my arrogance will not allow me to  play the dumbed down MMO's of the WOW generation, you are correct. This thread is if WOW has degraded MMO's overall and my opinion is yes it has. You like WOW then play WOW some of us want better.

Yeah because adding more grind makes the game so much damn harder. I really wonder what would you consider a hard game? L2 in C2-C3? Well then,say time consuming not hard. WoW actually tests your personal skill and ability to sync and paly with your teammates as a team in both high-end PvE and PvP.

Ok.

I'm glad you understood :)