What do you guys think makes a good leveling process? Would you enjoy a game that focusses on PvE solely? PvP solely? Maybe a mix of both? Maybe a mix of those and crafting? Personally, I enjoy a mix of all three, PvE, PvP, and crafting. Obviously, there needs to be some quests, at least enough to get you to cap purely via questing. Maybe some organized PvP (capture the flag, etc.), and maybe a little bit of open PvP (kind of like WAR). I also think one should be able to level via crafting as well, like in SWG. I personally don't see crafting as an on the side, get end game gear thing, and so I definately think it should be included in the leveling process. What do you all think? 

A good leveling process is one which focuses on the gameplay activities you enjoy.

For me, that would be:

• Reward structure tilted towards grouping.  So solo is viable, but slightly slower than grouping.  So grouping is part of leveling.
• Engaging combat, where reacting to different combat events is rewarded.
• Difficulty options, where harder difficulty results in faster progression.
• Interesting and varied content.

Those are the important things at least.  I don't mind dabbling in PVP, and I do quite a bit of crafting (particularly in the games wise enough to let you craft useful items while leveling.)

Originally posted by Axehilt

A good leveling process is one which focuses on the gameplay activities you enjoy.

For me, that would be:

• Reward structure tilted towards grouping.  So solo is viable, but slightly slower than grouping.  So grouping is part of leveling.
• Engaging combat, where reacting to different combat events is rewarded.
• Difficulty options, where harder difficulty results in faster progression.
• Interesting and varied content.

Those are the important things at least.  I don't mind dabbling in PVP, and I do quite a bit of crafting (particularly in the games wise enough to let you craft useful items while leveling.)

I'll echo that and I think the concept of levels have lately been abused more as a gateway to the fun stuff rather than the fun stuff being part of the journey to the max level. This forces us to at least stay subscribed to try to acknowledge the "real fun" within traditional MMO's and this is just a sad ploy that I hope more and more people can start seeing through. I think if all the cool parts of the game was spread apart through out different levels, they can get away with slower leveling and can bring back levels more as an achievement than a prerequisite to access to what would be considered "most of the game" within the MMO's world. This is why I like EVE as old as it is and look forward to seeing it develop even further for years to come (despite it being as old as WoW), I get to do the fun stuff even at the lower levels, it does have tiers but its not as clearcut or necessary (I don't find motherships too exciting) and it doesn't try to hold back like traditional MMO's do.

 What do you guys think of scaled content for leveling? I think it has it's ups and downs: it can make for repetitive content, but can also ensures that no one misses anything... if you never did a dungeon while in early levels you could go back and do it in later levels for an equal reward. Also, you can never really get stuck without content in the process.

Originally posted by wrockholz

 What do you guys think of scaled content for leveling? I think it has it's ups and downs: it can make for repetitive content, but can also ensures that no one misses anything... if you never did a dungeon while in early levels you could go back and do it in later levels for an equal reward. Also, you can never really get stuck without content in the process.

I think this would be appropriate to certain MMO designs, not all. Like if I were to design a game that is a sandbox with some emphasis on exploration and adventure, this would be horrible. It would take away any sense of excitement and make the game too easy IMO. For MMO's with how I like to describe -- a more arcade feel, lots of power, lots of action/fighting involved -- I would say this can help people get to that sort of experience and have more control over it without impacting the world too much.

City of Heroes already does something like this, but would like to see games like Aion and Champions Online implement it more. I say Aion at least from my little experience because it was hard to feel important or feel like a hero when I finally hit my subclass (Ranger, sure maybe it was a mistake) and couldn't even effectively use a bow and actually feel like a Ranger, I was getting my ass handed to me solo by a Slink (ok almost got it handed to me, but I shouldn't have difficulty with standard animals that roam closeby to my first real fortress after the beginner's area). WoW too can probably benefit and it does in a sense via differentiating between 5/10/25 mans specifically and then utilizing Normal and Heroic modes on top of all 3 of those. I still firmly believe WoW is starting to become a dying game and has reached a peak, I can't see how much more simpler and easier this game can get for many and it seems like they use it to draw people in and keep them there.

Originally posted by wrockholz

 What do you guys think of scaled content for leveling? I think it has it's ups and downs: it can make for repetitive content, but can also ensures that no one misses anything... if you never did a dungeon while in early levels you could go back and do it in later levels for an equal reward. Also, you can never really get stuck without content in the process.

Doesn't bother me, as long as it's not done to Oblivion extremes.

But since the average person doesn't seem to like it that much, and since I selfishly want people to group with, I think I'd rather play a game without much scaled content.  Or hidden in a way where players don't notice (because Oblivion had tons of whining, but Mass Effect I don't think most people even realized they were scaling content.)

World events, meaning you stumble across situations while roaming and take part.  You find a weak person fighting a well-armed thug, you can either help the person and gain a lot of xp or help kill them and get whatever loot you get.  After that more quests should open up based on whether you let them die or save them.  You could go work for the thug's organization if he wants you to help, or just help out the local town the man is from.

Make me make choices in my quests.  Not repetitive nonsense.  Make me get a quest, then instead of killing the thief, let me negotiate with him terms to let him live after killing his henchmen.  Maybe I want to take a quest from HIM to kill the other guy instead of always doing the right thing.

I don't always want to be a savior, or even if i am the savior i don't always want to be a knight in shining armor.

Originally posted by Axehilt

A good leveling process is one which focuses on the gameplay activities you enjoy.

For me, that would be:

• Reward structure tilted towards grouping.  So solo is viable, but slightly slower than grouping.  So grouping is part of leveling.
• Engaging combat, where reacting to different combat events is rewarded.
• Difficulty options, where harder difficulty results in faster progression.
• Interesting and varied content.

Those are the important things at least.  I don't mind dabbling in PVP, and I do quite a bit of crafting (particularly in the games wise enough to let you craft useful items while leveling.)

yesyesyesyesyes, i couldnt have said it any better, find me a game like that and ill play it with ya :D. grouping should be key, its what sets a MMORPG and an RPG apart. If i wanna run through a game by myself and basically solo my way through, i wouldnt wanna waste the 15 a month when i could just get oblivion or fallout 3 or something. Grouping is the main thing im looking for. WoW had great leveling earlier on, but now that almost everyone is level capped, the lowbie instances are empty, and the only way to level from grouping is maybe getting runned through by a high level friend. Thats why i'm waiting for the new WoW expansion, me and some friends are starting from scratch. New server, new classes, new races, new everything. Its gonna be great :D

I don't know how well this would work at all, but I was sort of thinking something like this would be cool: for the grouping mechanic, there could be dungeons spread out across the world. They would be level based, but they would scale based on how many group members you are with. This way, a person could solo a dungeon, but a party of five could do the same dungeon with the same challenge but receive a higher reward for completing it. Sort of like the 5 / 10 / 25 man system in wow, but much more expanded. (This is in addition to the various other forms of leveling.)

 Oh, and as for the crafting thing that Axehilt stated, I believe he said something like he would like to see crafted items that aid in the leveling process... why not include something like items crafted at lower levels provide (in addition to stat bonuses) experience bonuses (or however you wish to phrase it). Something like being able to craft something similar to Heirlooms from WoW, which give you 10% experience bonuses and can be worn at any level and scale up with your character.

Originally posted by wrockholz

 Oh, and as for the crafting thing that Axehilt stated, I believe he said something like he would like to see crafted items that aid in the leveling process... why not include something like items crafted at lower levels provide (in addition to stat bonuses) experience bonuses (or however you wish to phrase it). Something like being able to craft something similar to Heirlooms from WoW, which give you 10% experience bonuses and can be worn at any level and scale up with your character.

That would certainly add encouragement.

Champions had resource nodes that gave you 5-min buffs specific to each tradeskill (Science was a HOT, Arms was a damage buff, and Mysticism was mana regen.)  While I've kinda given up on Champions at this point, it was cool that in some cases I chose tradeskills based on what temp buff they were giving me.

To combine that with your idea, and give longer buffs (60-120 mins) after making a new item, that would be a pretty slick system imo. (:

Choices: many, many choices to make. Starting with who do I work for? I can work for these guys but those other guys won;t like that.

Having to plan for long term goals early on and having great but specifically chosen rewards to work for.

Challenging; 90% of most single player content in most games is too easy. Challenging missions / quests which learn you the most of your class / abilities are memorable and enjoyable.

No leveling please.  To me, leveling is just a really really long drawn out tutorial.  End game is the only reason I play mmos, leveling is something I despise doing.

I would love a game where someone who just starts, can be viable within a day in end game pvp against those who have been playing for a long time.  Viable, not equal, but viable.

Like most people, choice.  Solo when you want.  Group when you want.  Better rewards for grouping, obviously.  Not necessarily better exp though.  It should scale appropriately.  Rewards need to match what you're doing.  If you're soloing you don't need great gear to kill easy mobs.  But if you're grouping up to kill tougher things or do dungeons, you need better rewards to kill those tougher things. 

Good stories, varried quests.  NPCs should have some character.  Have factions within every zone to make some choices matter a bit.  If you help these guys, those other guys won't like you or not help you.  You can help a side and gain some benefits or help no one and stay nuetral.   It gives the AI more life and the zone more character.  Have NPC factions that pester the towns.   Let them take control of certain areas to force players to help the town to make it more viable again.  You don't help the town, you can't save/bind there, or use the travel system, or buy goods.  Let the players have some control, but don't let them ruin anything.

Interesting OPEN zones.  I just can't stand this new zone design of one road leading you through the center with quest hubs sprinkled along a path.  What IS the quest hub?  What purpose does it serve?  If its just some random gathering of NPCs thats boring.  The first time I saw this was in WAR and now in Aion.  If there are NPCs giving out quests, there better be purpose to these NPCs.  Do they live there?  Is it a town?  A fishing village?  A prison camp?  A warcamp?  They shouldn't just be slot machines and they shouldn't all be huddled together either.  There should be great quests that are off the beaten path.  Sure, FAQs will spill the beans, but at least make people have to search a little.  The world should make sense as a landmass.   The zone design should be something more than generic forest #15 and they should all connect in a beleivable way.  I just can't get immersed in separate areas stitched together with no ryme or reason.   

There should be eilte areas and easy areas.  No mixing cons.  Thats BAD design and leads to frustrating "cheap" deaths.  Nobody likes to die because 3 mobs spawned on top of them mid fight.  Thats cheap.  Its not fun.  Mobs shouldn't actually spawn out of thin air to be honest.  Every spawn should have some sort of beleivable reveal.  Crawling out of the ground, or some tunnel.  They should be a bit more creative than !!!POOF!!   Let people choose the difficulty of their leveling curve.  Zones should have a bit more variety in levels though.  Give people a reason to come back and revisit an area because it was too hard when you first saw it.   More outdoor open dungeon style areas that promote grouping.  Keep the instances of course for more scripted content.  There should be multiple named wandering boss mobs per zone to hunt for.  No set paths.  Be sure mobs fight eachother.  They should all have their own faction system. 

Good leveling is interesting, but not DIFFICULT by force.  Allow people to choose a difficult path thats more rewarding.  If they choose to take the harder path, let them.  But allow anyone else to take the easy path.  They just get less for doing less.  Rewards should scale appropriately to the effort.  THATs what makes a good leveling process.  Balance.  NOT kicking people in the nuts or holding them by the hand.

I think a good levelling process is one which simply encourages players to play the way they want to play: PvPers should be able to level by PvPing, PvEers by questing and killing mobs, Crafters by crafting etc.

The key ingredient is that levelling should not be an objective in itself, just a by product of playing the game. I think back to old school RPGs like Baldur's Gate, Eye of the Beholder etc and levelling was a purely enjoyable process...something you looked forward to but could not go out of your way to achieve.

Originally posted by Sabiancym

No leveling please.  To me, leveling is just a really really long drawn out tutorial.  End game is the only reason I play mmos, leveling is something I despise doing.

 

I would love a game where someone who just starts, can be viable within a day in end game pvp against those who have been playing for a long time.  Viable, not equal, but viable.

Guild Wars is for you. 

For me its not about speed as it is about "Do I even care about the xp BAR" ...if the answer is no, then that's good leveling

I think you need to look forward to levelling. Like some incentive- in Everquest you always looked forward to spell levels and the lure of a load of spells.

Leveling is what I like about RPG's in general. You start out weak and look forward to getting stronger every day. You may see a high level character with cool armor and think "wow, maybe someday I'll be like him". 

But once I get to high level it's just not as fun anymore. It was more fun looking up to getting there than actually being there. 

So, I always hope that the progress to the end of the journey will take as long as possible, since that's where the fun is (for me).

What's a good leveling process? One that gives me these kind of feelings. I just don't find that kind of feeling from MMO's anymore. I feel strong from the start, and all the rewards I get very easily. 

 There are a lot of games out there that excel in one aspect, and lack in others... I'd say combine ideas of all others into one main game.

1.) "You've done your time" idea. I love MMO's, but after leveling 50+toons from lvl 1 to max it gets old. Option to impliment something like that of the Death Knight idea where you could start toons past level 1.

2.) PvE toons vs. PvP toons. Have seperate leveling brackets. You may be a level 80 PvE toon, but if you participate in PvP (say for instance wow battleground stuff) you start as a level 1 combatant and earn xp through PvP battleground stuff only.  PvE gear is Seperate from PvP. PvE spells and abilities are seperate from PvP rather than global.

3.) Randomized instanced areas. (not for all, but say like in Anarchy Online) where you can make your own or get them from NPCs... whatever, but mix it up a bit. If Diablo 1, to Anarchy Online, to Dungeon Runners can do it, I see no excuse why it can't be done with other games.

4.) Instanced static missions based on selectable difficulty (as in DDO). Content should be availiable for all, whether you're "hardcore" or "casual"... my status varies along with RL responsibilities and I shouldn't be dumbed down when I have a group, nor punished because I can't find one or don't have the time.

5.) XP debt forgiveness system like Earth and Beyond. Have the option for xp to regen over time, rather than be forced to grind more in the same situation. That way I have the option to play if I have time to enjoy it, or walk away and take a break from the game and not feel like I'm "obligated" to make up for lost time and shirk other RL responsibilities.

just a few I can think of atm.

Fallout 3 has the best leveling in any game I've ever played. I was just having so much fun, I never even noticed I was leveling until the screen came up asking me to choose new skills. That's the kind of leveling I like to see in games.

Originally posted by Lansid

1.) "You've done your time" idea. I love MMO's, but after leveling 50+toons from lvl 1 to max it gets old. Option to impliment something like that of the Death Knight idea where you could start toons past level 1.

I really like that idea.  In most games, by the time you've leveled a couple of characters, you absolutely dread going back and starting over again.  It's the same old grind every time, it never gets any more fun.  One idea I had a while back was the idea of apprenticeship.  What if you could, after a certain level, create a new character and "apprentice" it to one of your existing toons.  That apprentice would gain XP at a certain rate, simply for being linked and once the "master" was retired, the apprentice would get a portion of their abilities, gear, etc. to call their own.  That way, when you get sick of playing level 80 character A, you have a level 40 character B to fall back on.

This is really what drives me away from most games, I just do not want to start over ever again.

2.) PvE toons vs. PvP toons. Have seperate leveling brackets. You may be a level 80 PvE toon, but if you participate in PvP (say for instance wow battleground stuff) you start as a level 1 combatant and earn xp through PvP battleground stuff only.  PvE gear is Seperate from PvP. PvE spells and abilities are seperate from PvP rather than global.

Since I don't PvP ever, doesn't matter to me at all.

3.) Randomized instanced areas. (not for all, but say like in Anarchy Online) where you can make your own or get them from NPCs... whatever, but mix it up a bit. If Diablo 1, to Anarchy Online, to Dungeon Runners can do it, I see no excuse why it can't be done with other games.

Good idea.

4.) Instanced static missions based on selectable difficulty (as in DDO). Content should be availiable for all, whether you're "hardcore" or "casual"... my status varies along with RL responsibilities and I shouldn't be dumbed down when I have a group, nor punished because I can't find one or don't have the time.

Agreed, I'd like to see player-selectable difficulty.  If you're in a dungeon and you're consistently getting your backside kicked, allow the player to ramp the difficulty level down (with an accompanying reduction in loot and XP of course) so they can get through it.

5.) XP debt forgiveness system like Earth and Beyond. Have the option for xp to regen over time, rather than be forced to grind more in the same situation. That way I have the option to play if I have time to enjoy it, or walk away and take a break from the game and not feel like I'm "obligated" to make up for lost time and shirk other RL responsibilities.

I like the AO version of XP forgiveness.  When you die, you don't lose the XP forever, it goes into a pool which you gain back at a certain rate, in addition to the other XP you're getting from regular play.  Over time, you regain everything you lost if something goes wrong.  I really hate games where, if the server lags or you have to get up and go do something, you're penalized.