Would that work?

For example you travel around, you harvest some wood. Then you remember some woodcutting craftsman npc in the last town, wonder if he'd like some, return to him and give him the wood.

Or, you kill a gang of bandits, find among them a piece of jewelry with a name written on it. In the next town, once you go into the noble district you hear some people gossipping about bandits and how they stole something from a rich lady. Going to her you give it back. And the mayor of the city pays you some money for having slain bandits.

There would be no difference between quest items and normal items. Like the jewelry? Equip it yourself. Need money? Sell it. Want reputation and maybe other rewards? Give it to it's owner. Need stuff for your crafting? Break it apart.

Now, what would such a system do with the players? How would they react? No more npcs with exclamation marks or question marks to talk to. No more list of quests on the screen that point you into the direction. Would it just be like any typical mmorpg just with the difference of not beeing user friendly? Or what it result in people paying more attention to the world, the stories and result in more immersion and having the feeling to be in an actual living world?

Would be simply run around and kill everything randomly hoping it would be for a quest? Or would they simply ignore the quests and grind? Or simply shout for help constantly?

Those MMO's exist. However, they don't attract large numbers of people for whatever reason.

Originally posted by maji

Would that work?

For example you travel around, you harvest some wood. Then you remember some woodcutting craftsman npc in the last town, wonder if he'd like some, return to him and give him the wood.

Or, you kill a gang of bandits, find among them a piece of jewelry with a name written on it. In the next town, once you go into the noble district you hear some people gossipping about bandits and how they stole something from a rich lady. Going to her you give it back. And the mayor of the city pays you some money for having slain bandits.

There would be no difference between quest items and normal items. Like the jewelry? Equip it yourself. Need money? Sell it. Want reputation and maybe other rewards? Give it to it's owner. Need stuff for your crafting? Break it apart.

Now, what would such a system do with the players? How would they react? No more npcs with exclamation marks or question marks to talk to. No more list of quests on the screen that point you into the direction. Would it just be like any typical mmorpg just with the difference of not beeing user friendly? Or what it result in people paying more attention to the world, the stories and result in more immersion and having the feeling to be in an actual living world?

Would be simply run around and kill everything randomly hoping it would be for a quest? Or would they simply ignore the quests and grind? Or simply shout for help constantly?

Log onto Ryzom, See how people handle missions/quests that don't progress characters in anyway and are just optional.

We Explore, We team for Boss hunts and XP grind sessions, We raid boss lairs, we digg and craft together, We RP, WE PVP in FFA zones and try to capture/defend guild outposts. We run and attend Live Events.

Seems like the No or optional quest/mission thing is working good there.

Now that I think about it every sandbox MMO has optional quests or missions that could totally be avoided and wouldn't put a player at a disadvantage.

I would say it depends on the players and would vary greatly.

Some would complain that there is no content for them (no quests and no quest NPCs and no obvious game goals).

Some would start killing Ennemies/Monsters for XP / Equipment.

Some would start making their own "quests" and stories and roleplay.

etc.

To make this work you'd have to spend some time to create convincing NPCs that can do more than just repeat one sentence or a static "dialog". That would be important for the immersion factor. This could also counter a "static and empty" world feeling. Like in your example you'd have NPC bandits and NPC merchants or NPC travelers that get robbed. This shouldn't be included as static quest, but could happen dynamically (e.g. NPC merchant brings goods from city a to b. All is smooth. On the way to city c he gets robbed).

The Faction System would have to fit in convincingly into the virtual world. A static npc faction score doesn't allow dynamic factions (faction split up, treason, drama, alliances). So you only get this from actual player guilds. Players and NPCs could form mixed organisations/guilds/societies dynamically. Including NPCs could help lessen the pressure on having to be online all the time. Task could be delegated to fellow players or NPCs for the time you're offline.

Players and NPCs and organisations could build houses, castles, dungeons, etc. and populate it. Store equipment and items within it.

Players and NPCs and organisations could aquire Followers (NPCs or actual players) or hire mercenaries (NPCs or players) and have their own places (house/castle/dungeon/etc.) guarded.

In effect you'd have to make a virtual world simulation. The drawback would be that you cannot guarantee everyone the same game experience. You cannot guarantee a defined way of progression. Make your onw character a powerful warrior/wizard/etc. or form a powerful organisation/kingdom. Become a benevolent hero or hated bandit or a secluded scholar, etc.

Maybe EVE or Second Live would be something to consider at the time being.

I guess its impossible, since may gamers and players are easily hooked in the way to do some quest and grinding according to their level. So if there is no quest in a particular mmo, how can you level up your avatar or main character? Besides it can be boring since there is no actions that are going on and there's no challenge for that... And i believe only few players will try this kind of mmorpg w/out actual quest .

I think I'll give the cynical answer to this.

Although the way you described it sounds logical and would have more of a realistic, natural flow to it than than the current commonly used system I think that most mmorpg players these days would howl in protest if they entered a game which did not immediately tell them where to go and what to do.  Without extremely specific instructions from NPCs they would feel lost having never needed before to make even the simplest of decisions for themselves.

These people would huddle together in the starting town like sheep with no shepard.  Too stupid to set out on their own they would bleat mournfully for someone to herd them along in the right direction.

Give darkfall a go. Yea, there are quests, but they are clunky and most players bypass them for better fun

Sandbox MMOs appeal to a smaller subset of players than your average MMO. It forces people to team up more. To think outside of the box a bit more. In order to really live up to their potential, they need a dedicated community that's at least a certain size. Otherwise, if there's no one around to maintain that sense of another world, it will die quickly.

In order to maintain the community, it needs to be believable, immersive, challenging (but not too challenging), rewarding and most of all fun.

Very few sandbox MMOs have got this mixture right out of the ones I've played. Ryzom has a great world with some very cool, believable animal AI, seasons, excellent crafting and so on, but the community is too small imo (despite being extremely friendly and helpful). EVE is doing much better in the size of their community and is definitely one of the more successful sandboxes out.

I've heard UO was the bomb back in its day too.

Originally posted by maji

Would that work?

For example you travel around, you harvest some wood. Then you remember some woodcutting craftsman npc in the last town, wonder if he'd like some, return to him and give him the wood.

Or, you kill a gang of bandits, find among them a piece of jewelry with a name written on it. In the next town, once you go into the noble district you hear some people gossipping about bandits and how they stole something from a rich lady. Going to her you give it back. And the mayor of the city pays you some money for having slain bandits.

There would be no difference between quest items and normal items. Like the jewelry? Equip it yourself. Need money? Sell it. Want reputation and maybe other rewards? Give it to it's owner. Need stuff for your crafting? Break it apart.

Now, what would such a system do with the players? How would they react? No more npcs with exclamation marks or question marks to talk to. No more list of quests on the screen that point you into the direction. Would it just be like any typical mmorpg just with the difference of not beeing user friendly? Or what it result in people paying more attention to the world, the stories and result in more immersion and having the feeling to be in an actual living world?

Would be simply run around and kill everything randomly hoping it would be for a quest? Or would they simply ignore the quests and grind? Or simply shout for help constantly?

A quest log is a modern MMO addition. What you are saying is how MMOs used to be. As MMOs got more and more popular you had a growing majority that demanded for a way to keep track of quests in the game and so the modern MMO was born.

People fail to see the community not the developers have created how MMOs are developed today.

mmm when playing Ryzom I experienced some of that since they had very few quests.

I think a non quest-driven game can work it just has to have a ton of side stuff to do. Quests do give you short term or long-term goals and the stories behind them usually place you as the hero in the scenario and the "only one in town capable" of such tasks. Loners can fall into lots of side tasks and be entertained because they are driven by introversion instead of external horn tooting - which quest rewards can offer and npc gratitude might fall under.

Psychologically I think lots of ppl are followers, they like structure and will follow a set plan and course but don't like to spend time outside of what should be done with what could be done. Imagine the person that asks what to do next at a job all the time  or worse will sit still talking until someone gives them something new to do. We don't just have managers to divvy out tasks - sometimes it's because some ppl need everything small or they become overwhelmed by the scope of the gigantic need so you have to break it into smaller pieces. Quests are smaller pieces, that's the way I think of it - the gigantic need is to rid the world of X.

What happens if I pick up this vase and pling that npc in the head with it - will they still offer me a quest after I've shown my arse?

Mechanics can inhibit free form play too so that's why you need mounds of the side tasks to do to make the leader types feel like they are accomplishing things.  Without accomplishing something it's just a big chat room :P

I think that quest lines play a major role in mmos. yes some mmo may work if you have many things to do, but to think about it. most mmos with quest also have those other stuffs... e.g. crafting, fishing, item hunting. the quest i think only offers better substance to a game.

try Mortal Online (still in beta). 0 quests. all skills.

Give Entropia Universe a go, I heard that its kinda slow when starting a new character now (been some years since I made mine). But its really fun when you get better and can go hunting large mobs and actually start profiting real money from the game.