Massive is when u want to go to the auction house, and takes u 1 min to pan the camera around to reach the NPC

swtor..i had hopes for this one..but it seems its gonna be another sucky overinstanced, multiple copy of same zone, with too much story...

Another Champions online with star wars toons..my good...these devs are going insane...

Originally posted by Pocahinha

swtor..i had hopes for this one..but it seems its gonna be another sucky overinstanced, multiple copy of same zone, with too much story...

Another Champions online with star wars toons..my good...these devs are going insane...

Yep i have to agree, if they think that bounty hunter, sith duo was a good group experience they have issues, as for everyone experiencing there own story ? well wtf i thought we were suppose to be all togeather experiencing the same world.

Bioware trying to translate there winning single player forumla onto the mmo and i feel they gona get a hard slap in the face 6 months after release.

they should of just made swg 2 and made it with the pre cu from swg.

---

Originally posted by Pocahinha

 

swtor..i had hopes for this one..but it seems its gonna be another sucky overinstanced, multiple copy of same zone, with too much story...
Another Champions online with star wars toons..my good...these devs are going insane...

---

 
Does nobody know how to read?

---

Originally posted by maskedweasel

 

Happily

"Ten Ton Hammer: It’s also nice that you guys obviously got your message across about the importance of personal stories.
Blain Christine: It’s funny because that’s almost like a double-edged sword in a way. We’ve been telling people that we are doing story unlike any other MMO, but then people start asking things like, “Are you really doing an MMO?” And it’s hard to demo that in a live demo where we have 15 minutes to run through stuff. But when you see the outdoor areas in our demo where we’re running around Ord Mantell as the Smuggler or we’re running around Hutta outside the cantina, that’s where the world opens up and it’s not instanced content. So it is an MMO, there’s going to be other players out there and you’ll be able to have all the exploration and combat that you might expect out of an MMO."
Hmm, if you can see other players out and about fighting PvE content I would suppose... oh my.. that you can choose to group with those players too!

 

---

Originally posted by greed0104

Originally posted by Yamota

 

That is not the only reason nor is it only for this game. The MMORPG genre in general has degenerated into a massive multiplayer online single player game. That may sound like an oxymoron but when you think about it with all of these instances and single player storylines that the majority of MMORGPS consist of.

Say for example in AoC in the first 20 levels where every single character does more or less the same thing, i.e. kill the same boss over and over again and thus liberating Kharthage. How can you possibly justify that in the same world. Wouldnt it be rather silly to try and justify that?

 

I guess I don't need it explained or justified. I just play a game to, well, play a game. I don't need some mystical meaning behind something like this. Just the same as I don't need need some meaning as to why people in AoC are throwing around magic missles and so on. I guess it's just a preference you have, but it's either extremeley rare or non existent. Who knows maybe ToR will hold events, like FFXI or SWG.

It is a game but not only that, it is a massively online multiplayer game in a persistant online world. Why would you play such a game over a multiplayer game if you are not interested in the virtual world making any sense?

I too dont need it explained why you can throw magic missiles in AoC or why Gandalf can use magic in LotR (the movies) what I do need, however, is that it is believable. I have no problem believing that magic exists in a magical world but I do have a problem believing that there are thousands of clones of the same character in the same world which is killed over and over infinitum.

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by greed0104

Originally posted by Yamota

 

That is not the only reason nor is it only for this game. The MMORPG genre in general has degenerated into a massive multiplayer online single player game. That may sound like an oxymoron but when you think about it with all of these instances and single player storylines that the majority of MMORGPS consist of.

Say for example in AoC in the first 20 levels where every single character does more or less the same thing, i.e. kill the same boss over and over again and thus liberating Kharthage. How can you possibly justify that in the same world. Wouldnt it be rather silly to try and justify that?

 

I guess I don't need it explained or justified. I just play a game to, well, play a game. I don't need some mystical meaning behind something like this. Just the same as I don't need need some meaning as to why people in AoC are throwing around magic missles and so on. I guess it's just a preference you have, but it's either extremeley rare or non existent. Who knows maybe ToR will hold events, like FFXI or SWG.

It is a game but not only that, it is a massively online multiplayer game in a persistant online world. Why would you play such a game over a multiplayer game if you are not interested in the virtual world making any sense?

Because it doesn't bother me?  MMOs offer more then a normal multiplayer game possibly could. I don't have enough time to rush over to kill a boss because thousands of other guilds are rushing to kill him to. I would also like the encounter the boss that was killed two months ago, and now it never respawns. What is to be justified other then I and many other people, don't have the time to catch new bosses the first day it's alive, and if we dont, it will be gone the next day. This seems like a terrible business move. Most people wanna relax when playing a game and not feel stressed out.

Originally posted by greed0104

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by greed0104

Originally posted by Yamota

 

That is not the only reason nor is it only for this game. The MMORPG genre in general has degenerated into a massive multiplayer online single player game. That may sound like an oxymoron but when you think about it with all of these instances and single player storylines that the majority of MMORGPS consist of.

Say for example in AoC in the first 20 levels where every single character does more or less the same thing, i.e. kill the same boss over and over again and thus liberating Kharthage. How can you possibly justify that in the same world. Wouldnt it be rather silly to try and justify that?

 

I guess I don't need it explained or justified. I just play a game to, well, play a game. I don't need some mystical meaning behind something like this. Just the same as I don't need need some meaning as to why people in AoC are throwing around magic missles and so on. I guess it's just a preference you have, but it's either extremeley rare or non existent. Who knows maybe ToR will hold events, like FFXI or SWG.

It is a game but not only that, it is a massively online multiplayer game in a persistant online world. Why would you play such a game over a multiplayer game if you are not interested in the virtual world making any sense?

Because it doesn't bother me?  MMOs offer more then a normal multiplayer game possibly could. I don't have enough time to rush over to kill a boss because thousands of other guilds are rushing to kill him to. I would also like the encounter the boss that was killed two months ago, and now it never respawns. What is to be justified other then I and many other people, don't have the time to catch new bosses the first day it's alive, and if we dont, it will be gone the next day. This seems like a terrible business move. Most people wanna relax when playing a game and not feel stressed out.

Once the technology gets there, what he's describing will very much be the norm. And it will be the only business move. Its good that people want that, so the $ is spent for the technology to be developed. I bet Blizzard is experimenting with it now.

So i would love what Yamota is wanting too. That tech is only just begining, so we're stuck with pretending for now. It is immersion breaking, and rather cheesey in a mmo persitant world. I dont see a reason to defend it, or companies that arent pushing that tech. But until then, this is what we get for the reason you described. You SHOULD want that, but accept what is available in reality as long as it always a step closer. I think Bioware will use design to limit the cheese better than most, which is a step closer in a way.

@yamota..Wait til you experience TOR's design. I totally get what your saying, but it's not a mechanic we can look at right now. Right now is the experience of playing it. Once ya play through it, if  a good portion of cheese was completely hidden by design, then you may get "some" of what your after. Better than none. If it is worse and a step backwards..feel free to let them know. But the total experience cant be provided atm, only the bad hidden. And you gotta play it for yourself to see.

just my opinion, sorry if it sounded like Im telling people what they should want or do. Im not.

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

 

Once the technology gets there, what he's describing will very much be the norm. And it will be the only business move. Its good that people want that, so the $ is spent for the technology to be developed. I bet Blizzard is experimenting with it now.

So i would love what Yamota is wanting too. That tech is only just begining, so we're stuck with pretending for now. It is immersion breaking, and rather cheesey in a mmo persitant world. I dont see a reason to defend it, or companies that arent pushing that tech. But until then, this is what we get for the reason you described. You SHOULD want that, but accept what is available in reality as long as it always a step closer. I think Bioware will use design to limit the cheese better than most, which is a step closer in a way.

I DONT want that. I DONT have time for it, It's silly. How exactly is developers having to constantly update the game daily with new bosses a good business move? People will eventually get annoyed due to not being "hardcore" enough to down a boss before the rest of the world. The only alternative I could think of was to rename the boss everytime it respawns, but how would that help your immersion? 100 foot dragon dies, 1 day later another 101 foot dragon appears, repeat this. But where the hell are all these big ass dragons coming from? I'm sorry I just don't see how this helps immersion at all.

Originally posted by greed0104

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

 

Once the technology gets there, what he's describing will very much be the norm. And it will be the only business move. Its good that people want that, so the $ is spent for the technology to be developed. I bet Blizzard is experimenting with it now.

So i would love what Yamota is wanting too. That tech is only just begining, so we're stuck with pretending for now. It is immersion breaking, and rather cheesey in a mmo persitant world. I dont see a reason to defend it, or companies that arent pushing that tech. But until then, this is what we get for the reason you described. You SHOULD want that, but accept what is available in reality as long as it always a step closer. I think Bioware will use design to limit the cheese better than most, which is a step closer in a way.

 

I DONT want that. I DONT have time for it, It's silly. How exactly is developers having to constantly update the game daily with new bosses a good business move? People will eventually get annoyed due to not being "hardcore" enough to down a boss before the rest of the world. The only alternative I could think of was to rename the boss everytime it respawns, but how would that help your immersion? 100 foot dragon dies, 1 day later another 101 foot dragon appears, repeat this. But where the hell are all these big ass dragons coming from? I'm sorry I just don't see how this helps immersion at all.

Phasing
 

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

Phasing
 

Give me more then one word, I wanna see how you see it playing out.

Originally posted by greed0104

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

Phasing
 

 

Give me more then one word, I wanna see how you see it playing out.

I bet you do.

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

Originally posted by greed0104

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

Phasing
 

 

Give me more then one word, I wanna see how you see it playing out.

 

I bet you do.

No further explanation? Just "phasing". Really I just wanted to hear your side, but if you don't wanna share it, that's fine. So I'll give my opinion on why I think phasing is no more immersive then the boss respawning for you. Phasing is already in WoW, came a long with Northrend, probably the two most notable was ebon hold and Wrath Gate. Alright so you did the wrath gate, that part of the area has changed, but you're still not the last to do it. Tons of others will follow up and complete changing there area as well. So even though you did it, there is no immersion, because, you will continue hearing people talking about killing <random boss> you already killed just to get up to your point. From what I was getting Yamoto's post was he killed a boss and it stayed dead, nobody would ever see it again. And if the game used phasing, then people would complain about instanced areas. So you lose either way.

Originally posted by greed0104

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

Originally posted by greed0104

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

Phasing
 

 

Give me more then one word, I wanna see how you see it playing out.

 

I bet you do.

No further explanation? Just "phasing". Really I just wanted to hear your side, but if you don't wanna share it, that's fine. So I'll give my opinion on why I think phasing is no more immersive then the boss respawning for you. Phasing is already in WoW, came a long with Northrend, probably the two most notable was ebon hold and Wrath Gate. Alright so you did the wrath gate, that part of the area has changed, but you're still not the last to do it. Tons of others will follow up and complete changing there area as well. So even though you did it, there is no immersion, because, you will continue hearing people talking about killing <random boss> you already killed just to get up to your point. From what I was getting Yamoto's post was he killed a boss and it stayed dead, nobody would ever see it again. And if the game used phasing, then people would complain about instanced areas. So you lose either way.

If that's your opinion, fine. I lose.

 Wasn't really trying to debate you, was just using your reply to let yamato know that what he want isn't ready yet. But doesnt mean he should skip TOR. It's design may still provide a decent experience, only way to know is play it for yourself when it releases. And thats money for the devs to put food on their table.

If you missed the PAX interview they stated phasing will be in, since classes do different things, your choices and light/gray/dark side change certain areas.

It's perfectly fine if you want a sandbox like SWG game. And TOR isn't that.  It's pretty dumb to not learn about the game if you would enjoy a game like TOR, and read posts on forums like these from people who have no idea about the game, and think it's an instanced, small, solo/2player game.

If you took two minutes to watch the videos on the TOR site with the search function, 99% of your fears would be gone.  Now if you are just hating on the game because that's how you are, or because it might affect your current MMO, well, good for you.

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

 

If that's your opinion, fine. I lose.

 

No bro, wasn't saying you lose as in you fail. I'm saying you lose in the fact that it does not achieve complete immersion or even close to being immersive. Phasing could work, but people will continue to claim instanced areas kill immersion. So both sides will continue to complain, nobody wins.  I think non respawning bosses could work in a very very large sandbox MMO, but I don't see it making many happy in a theme park.

Originally posted by greed0104

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

 

If that's your opinion, fine. I lose.

 

 

No bro, wasn't saying you lose as in you fail. I'm saying you lose in the fact that it does not achieve complete immersion or even close to being immersive. Phasing could work, but people will continue to claim instanced areas kill immersion. So both sides will continue to complain, nobody wins.  I think non respawning bosses could work in a very very large sandbox MMO, but I don't see it making many happy in a theme park.

Non-respawning bosses wouldn't make many people happy, even in a sandbox environment. It would only make those few happy who are lucky/have time enough to actually get there. And Dev's could never keep up with demand to make enough content for that type of scenario. 

The only option is to let the players _BE- the content. Factional Warfare and conquerable territories with incentives as to why these need to be conquered. That is, in my opinion, the ONLY way you will see a constantly changing persistant virtual world. 

PvE does not lend itself well to ever-changing worlds.

Originally posted by singsofdeath

Originally posted by greed0104

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

 

If that's your opinion, fine. I lose.

 

 

No bro, wasn't saying you lose as in you fail. I'm saying you lose in the fact that it does not achieve complete immersion or even close to being immersive. Phasing could work, but people will continue to claim instanced areas kill immersion. So both sides will continue to complain, nobody wins.  I think non respawning bosses could work in a very very large sandbox MMO, but I don't see it making many happy in a theme park.

 

Non-respawning bosses wouldn't make many people happy, even in a sandbox environment. It would only make those few happy who are lucky/have time enough to actually get there. And Dev's could never keep up with demand to make enough content for that type of scenario. 

 

The only option is to let the players _BE- the content. Factional Warfare and conquerable territories with incentives as to why these need to be conquered. That is, in my opinion, the ONLY way you will see a constantly changing persistant virtual world. 

 

PvE does not lend itself well to ever-changing worlds.

Which is why I used the words "could work" and "very very large sandbox". If it was large enough that enables more room for bosses in random locations, some of them could take months to actually find. But I don't see it working in theme parks due to size.

Originally posted by greed0104

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

 

If that's your opinion, fine. I lose.

 

 

No bro, wasn't saying you lose as in you fail. I'm saying you lose in the fact that it does not achieve complete immersion or even close to being immersive. Phasing could work, but people will continue to claim instanced areas kill immersion. So both sides will continue to complain, nobody wins.  I think non respawning bosses could work in a very very large sandbox MMO, but I don't see it making many happy in a theme park.

Yes, i know. Like I said, what he was wanting, isnt available now. It can only hide some cheese. ok? what he wants...bosses that stay dead...cant be done now. OK? But, desgin can limit how cheesy it feels. So you win...it cant, and wont be done at this time in history. But it can feel less lame. Meaning a little better experience than what you expected. Only talking about feeling less immersion breaking as opposed to completely immersion breaking. Bosses that stay dead...like I said, isnt available at this time. It wont be in any themepark or sandbox for quite a long time.

Phasing now is like ben franklin flying a kite. So bosses that stay dead...NOT GONNA HAPPEN. Can it feel less lame? Appearently you say no. I say yes. You dont have to instance the entire game. Just used to capture the feeling a litttle better.
he's just describing the feeling he wants by using bosses that stay dead as an example. Your focusing on the example, the example is irrelevent. It's the feeling, immersion, emotion, desire, ect thats important. Gamers can only use what they have to desribe what they want. Don't you play games?

Does that confuse you more? In a hurry so if I explained that wrong sorry.

Ah the taken for granted skill, reading, is sorely needing exercise by ninety percent of the people in this thread.

Originally posted by Draccan

New article on Massively

 

A quote: "Especially since you've got such a strong singleplayer element in the story and choice features, how important is grouping to Star Wars: The Old Republic?

Blaine: I think it's a very important message we want to get out right now, because there's a lot of questions out there. People are saying, "Okay, we see it, we get it. It looks like a BioWare game and that looks like a singleplayer experience." We really want to make sure that it's clear that it's not [a singleplayer game]. Obviously what we've shown so far are the new things we're trying to bring to the MMO space, but grouping is going to be very important.

The closest demonstration we've had so far is where we show the flashpoint where we've got the the Sith Warrior grouped up with the Bounty Hunter. That's a grouping experience, and that includes your story experience, which is something we want to be sure people are clear on. When you're grouped, it doesn't impede the story whatsoever, so you can still progress the story as a group. It's not a singleplayer experience in any way, shape or form.

That said, if you want to do solo play that's something that you can do as well. It's a goal of ours to make sure that we cater to all those play styles. It someone is like, "I don't wanna group, I wanna play a BioWare game. I wanna go through the story and do things on my own." you can do that. You're gonna see other people running around the world, as you would in any other MMO. On the other hand, if you want to group you're gonna be able to go through the game that way as well."

 

I think Bioware and I have different ideas about what makes a mmorpg MASSIVE !?!!?!

 

 

 

 

I can't argue with you you and Bioware have a different idea about what makes an mmorpg massive but what I can say is you have not pointed to a single thing that suggests that their "idea" of massive is not directly in line with my own and many others idea of what is "massive".  Your rant doesn't suggest a specific motive I could point out but it certainly also doesn't point out anything wrong with what Bioware is doing either.

FYI SWG was not a real Sandbox lol. Second Life is a Sandbox, and none of you folks here like that game, so It could be assumed you really don't like sandbox games


anyways....

They just said each of their planets are as big as the typical landmass zone (or map) in the average MMO, so add that on top of various quests, phased and instanced some within the open world and that adds up to a lot of content. All we had in SWG back in the day was mission terminals and really bad/broken stories ( I never got to finish the quest for that dude in Vereni (sp) Island cantina), and one/remade instanced dungeon, (The Corvettes). Is that more preferable? SWG now has plenty of instances, like Kashyyk ect, I remember people bitching about that as well, till they got inside one with a group. You really did need a group for some of the content in the CU, it was easier, Precu I could solo most of everything but uber critters.

Just because they haven't said "BTW all content is done in the open world so people can kill steal you, you have to wait in line for crap loads of spawn timers, and get griefed tools" don't mean it all instanced. I'm sure we will have to wait in line to kill some things, like those thugs outside the BH guild hall on Hutta, or else it's gonna be phased. Instances to me just sounds like its for main parts of your story where they need to hold your attention and you don't have to feel rushed by other players or having an ADD moment from reading too much text.

Has everybody forgotten about the times you had to deal with dickwads loot camping the last thing you needed to kill to get credit for the end of a quest line? Geo cave anyone? I haven't. no one needs that kinda frustration. If you like having your nuts in a vice over an open fire pit, try Darkfall.

edit: BTW Mission terminals are also in SWTOR

the way its looking right now, it seems like the monthly fee is the entire answer to this question. Its a shame its looking like a glorified guild wars, no hate to that game but its not an MMO. Instanced gameplay is a part of MMOs but games with massive world know how to limit instancing so that you don't feel like your in an instance. This game has fail written all over it.

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

Originally posted by greed0104

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

 

Once the technology gets there, what he's describing will very much be the norm. And it will be the only business move. Its good that people want that, so the $ is spent for the technology to be developed. I bet Blizzard is experimenting with it now.

So i would love what Yamota is wanting too. That tech is only just begining, so we're stuck with pretending for now. It is immersion breaking, and rather cheesey in a mmo persitant world. I dont see a reason to defend it, or companies that arent pushing that tech. But until then, this is what we get for the reason you described. You SHOULD want that, but accept what is available in reality as long as it always a step closer. I think Bioware will use design to limit the cheese better than most, which is a step closer in a way.

 

I DONT want that. I DONT have time for it, It's silly. How exactly is developers having to constantly update the game daily with new bosses a good business move? People will eventually get annoyed due to not being "hardcore" enough to down a boss before the rest of the world. The only alternative I could think of was to rename the boss everytime it respawns, but how would that help your immersion? 100 foot dragon dies, 1 day later another 101 foot dragon appears, repeat this. But where the hell are all these big ass dragons coming from? I'm sorry I just don't see how this helps immersion at all.

Phasing
 

I'm going to address a few things in a couple posts but for this one......

Maybe I'm off my mark, but from what it sounds like you people are saying, is you want something similar to how MxO created their quest system, which somewhat sounds like good middle ground between you two albeit when it comes right down to it its nothing more then a glorified semantics argument.

Each new missions revolved around a separate set of contacts and enemies... named enemies were always different and player specific.  Joe Blow would have to fight Jerry Lewis one day and on the same quest in the same mission for John Candy, he would have to fight Larry Sanders.    The missions don't change much, but on the topic of immersion maybe the story line meant a little more to them, now that they weren't always waiting for Mr. Wilson every day of the week to spawn camp.

Overall, does it really matter? The point of ToR is to put the players into their situation to make their own choices.  Its absolutely possible to take a few different paths per class, albeit the story line still travels down the same path.   Currently in many games you get stuck with a single path that spans the extent of a race or classes content.. sometimes, in the example of CO, the entire games content.  GW too.  This is not GW, this is not CO, this is not WoW...   in all actuality this is KOTOR,  and I have no doubt the paths that you choose will be as interesting and different as those games were, where how I played it is probably completely different then how some of you may have.

Originally posted by Narc1

the way its looking right now, it seems like the monthly fee is the entire answer to this question. Its a shame its looking like a glorified guild wars, no hate to that game but its not an MMO. Instanced gameplay is a part of MMOs but games with massive world know how to limit instancing so that you don't feel like your in an instance. This game has fail written all over it.

As someone said before.. simply.. Prove it.  I can prove that this game isn't instanced or like guild wars and CO, can you prove it is? I'd be glad to see that.  If you watched a 5 minute alpha demo and think you know everything about the game, think again little one,   so far this has been the biggest misconception about the game, that it will be heavily instanced.....   I'm very surprised by the amount of people who think so -- and then post on these forums about it.  Mainly because I would think if they had the capability to post they'd have the capability to read..... I guess I was wrong in that assumption.