When are MMO developers going to learn that flashy combat is just stupid?  I know I don't only speak for myself when I say that it removes large amounts of realism.  Now most games you ask well what are you watching the combat for anyway because you should be watching your cooldowns?  But, that's another thing.  Combat is almost never engaging for these two reasons.  Because there's these unrealistic combat effects and/or you're watching your cooldowns.  I'm still waiting for a game that doesn't get ruined by gameplay.  I keep expecting the next most talked about game to be a game I've been looking for only to find it's not.  Anyway, does anyone else that enjoys watching their characters in combat feel the same way?  Is all realism spoiled by simple things that the game could have done without?

This talk of 'spoiled realism' in a genre largely dominated by elves and wizards is hilarious.

To be quite honest, I find that going for realism doesn't really work in anything other than a low-fantasy or modern setting -- something uncommon in MMORPGs.

'Flashy' combat makes players feel that their characters are cool. Explosions, insane martial attacks, and huge spells are cool, and make combat more exciting, in my opinion.

Originally posted by Tykero

This talk of 'spoiled realism' in a genre largely dominated by elves and wizards is hilarious.

 

To be quite honest, I find that going for realism doesn't really work in anything other than a low-fantasy or modern setting -- something uncommon in MMORPGs.

'Flashy' combat makes players feel that their characters are cool. Explosions, insane martial attacks, and huge spells are cool, and make combat more exciting, in my opinion.

I find it funny when anytime someone calls for more realism in combat, there is always a brat coming up with the elves /fantasy thing.

Developpers feel compelled to put a massive number of abilities for "varied" gameplay, to make up for the basic combat system (which is essentially auto-attack).

The problem will be solved once a MMO is developped stricly for console, when the combat system will become more of a blend between a FPS and fighting game, and cater to the gamepad device.

Originally posted by seniorfrito

I'm still waiting for a game that doesn't get ruined by gameplay.  I keep expecting the next most talked about game to be a game I've been looking for only to find it's not. 

The next "most talked about" game will never be one that favors realism over gameplay.  Realistic graphics maybe, but sacrificing fun gameplay for realistic gameplay?  Not going to be popular.

Which isn't to say it couldn't be made, and some players (like yourself) wouldn't get excited about that sort of thing.  They would.  It's just that the masses of people who buy games for fun wouldn't.

Also, I should mention there's a Half Life 2 mod which is probably what you're looking for.  It's not an MMO, but it has fairly large scale battles with medieval weaponry, and it forsakes fun for realism. 

I agree to a point, but we're playing games set in the "Heroic Fantasy" genre and in essence there is no "real" combat in any game whatsoever.  What does irritate me is the gigantic melee weaponry that shows two-handed swords as about 10 feet long and seemingly (particularly in WoW) made of metal several inches thick.  That really does just look ridiculous and spoils the immersion somewhat.

Then again, characters can run all day, swim in full armour with 6 bags full of metal ore and thousands of gold coins in their pocket and walk through scenery (though not walls, yet) and through other player characters!

Originally posted by Dibdabs

I agree to a point, but we're playing games set in the "Heroic Fantasy" genre and in essence there is no "real" combat in any game whatsoever.  What does irritate me is the gigantic melee weaponry that shows two-handed swords as about 10 feet long and seemingly (particularly in WoW) made of metal several inches thick.  That really does just look ridiculous and spoils the immersion somewhat.

Then again, characters can run all day, swim in full armour with 6 bags full of metal ore and thousands of gold coins in their pocket and walk through scenery (though not walls, yet) and through other player characters!

Kind of makes you long for the days of Diablo with stamina bars and very limited storage.

When your screen is filled with pixels jerking off making even more pixels, ending up with a orgasmic show of rainbowcoloured my little pony pink farts and spews of googreen sprinkles....

well, thats when the devs combat system and game is failing.

And thats how much of todays MMORPG's combat is right now... animations? Naah, just use a spraycan and paint the screen in flashy sickening sprinkles of pixels, and all is fine.

It's becomming so bad that I get sick to my head and stomach to watch "modern" mmorpg combat. Like SOE's new soon tom come hero game... One combat video I saw, you couldnt see the friggin screen for the mass masturbation of flashy pixel orgasms. you couldnt see the dangnabbit combat!!!

So, if you are of the kind that enjoys seeing nothing but flashbangs in CS... Good for you. But for us that want to see the game, enjoy the combat, and even feel slightly immersed in the world? For the love of all that is holy and the spagetti monster! Stop with the pixeljerking!

I do not think that flashy combat is stupid.  However, I do agree that it has been implemented badly in many games.

Flashy spell effects the fill the screen and obscure everything just hide the action and stop you from seeing and reacting to what is happening.

Long combat animations and sound effects are often out of synch and lagging the action.  A 5 second animation swinging a sword may look great, but if your cooldowns allow you to perform 2 other actions while this animation is running to completion, your graphics are now 2 animation sequences behind what is happening.

I want fun gameplay.  I think that for most games, realistic combat would not be fun.  In realistic combat, you would be killed or incapacitated in 1 hit if it was not a complete miss.  For most games, I doubt that people would want realistic combat.  Maybe you mean you would like unrealistic "Hollywood" style combat?

Cooldowns are a useful tool for pacing the combat so that each action takes a certain amount of time. There are several alternatives to cooldowns for pacing the action which may or may not be better for a particular game.

Originally posted by thorwood

I do not think that flashy combat is stupid.  However, I do agree that it has been implemented badly in many games.

Flashy spell effects the fill the screen and obscure everything just hide the action and stop you from seeing and reacting to what is happening.

Long combat animations and sound effects are often out of synch and lagging the action.  A 5 second animation swinging a sword may look great, but if your cooldowns allow you to perform 2 other actions while this animation is running to completion, your graphics are now 2 animation sequences behind what is happening.

I want fun gameplay.  I think that for most games, realistic combat would not be fun.  In realistic combat, you would be killed or incapacitated in 1 hit if it was not a complete miss.  For most games, I doubt that people would want realistic combat.  Maybe you mean you would like unrealistic "Hollywood" style combat?

Cooldowns are a useful tool for pacing the combat so that each action takes a certain amount of time. There are several alternatives to cooldowns for pacing the action which may or may not be better for a particular game.

Absolutely agree.  To answer the realistic combat and animations.  Plus beautiful graphics, sound, animations and immersion.  I have one answer for you:

Age Of Conan

Age of Conan used to be a game at one time, wasn't it?   :P

The flashier the better imo.  :)

You're stupid :P

Sorry couldn't help it.  Honestly though, flashy combat is a big selling point for me.  If it looks like EQ1, then its an instant turn off.  Of course flash has to be done right, which is the tricky part.

On another note, Aion bad :D

 I think combat needs to be engaging and viscerally satisfyingto be fun.  Some amount of flashiness helps with that.  Look at a game like Fallen Earth, with it's stark lack of of flashy combat, and I can't help but think that's part of why the combat is so boring.  

Course, gameplay mechanics are the other half of the equasion.  Combat should involve some sort of clicking that keeps the player involved, and that tends to be lacking, too.

I think both aspects are important, but flash is often over the top (especially in Asian MMOs) as if to compensate for the lack of engaging combat mechanics.

Just because you don't have the "tools" to associate different effects to different abilities, doesn't mean you get to remove it for the rest of us.

Video games are a limited medium, and effects are one of the things to help remove the limitedness of it.   Video games are so limited that something unreal like somewhat flashy effects actually aid realism because they get you closer to the awareness level that you have in the "real".

Granted if you're complaining about F2P grinder effects that's understandable, but something like guildwars which is "effecty" in a big and well designed way you need to be pelted.

edit

i've always disliked the flashy combat.    i get flashbacks of throwing quarters into an arcade game whenever i see flashy/bright/number-filled combat video of certain games (e.g., aion).

luckily many games give you the option to turn the effects off. 

when will customers learn that not everyone shares the same opinion?

Originally posted by Omega3

Originally posted by Tykero

This talk of 'spoiled realism' in a genre largely dominated by elves and wizards is hilarious.

 

To be quite honest, I find that going for realism doesn't really work in anything other than a low-fantasy or modern setting -- something uncommon in MMORPGs.

'Flashy' combat makes players feel that their characters are cool. Explosions, insane martial attacks, and huge spells are cool, and make combat more exciting, in my opinion.

I find it funny when anytime someone calls for more realism in combat, there is always a brat coming up with the elves /fantasy thing.

Developpers feel compelled to put a massive number of abilities for "varied" gameplay, to make up for the basic combat system (which is essentially auto-attack).

The problem will be solved once a MMO is developped stricly for console, when the combat system will become more of a blend between a FPS and fighting game, and cater to the gamepad device.

Cater to the gamepad? Dear god why? The gamepad is why consoles can't have mmo's. And why does fun combat rely on a gamepad? Have you ever played an FPS on the computer? Consoles would be made infinitely better by supporting keyboard and mouse.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by seniorfrito

I'm still waiting for a game that doesn't get ruined by gameplay.  I keep expecting the next most talked about game to be a game I've been looking for only to find it's not. 

The next "most talked about" game will never be one that favors realism over gameplay.  Realistic graphics maybe, but sacrificing fun gameplay for realistic gameplay?  Not going to be popular.

Which isn't to say it couldn't be made, and some players (like yourself) wouldn't get excited about that sort of thing.  They would.  It's just that the masses of people who buy games for fun wouldn't.

Also, I should mention there's a Half Life 2 mod which is probably what you're looking for.  It's not an MMO, but it has fairly large scale battles with medieval weaponry, and it forsakes fun for realism. 

What about an MMO like Mount & Blade? No flashy combat - even has crappy animations - yet many, many people enjoy that game. It doesn't have to be an over-the-top pinball explosion of pixels and colors to be cool.

Though I agree - the next "most talked about" game won't be realistic. It'll go down the path of Aion, WoW, and the like. There's a good chance the next "most talked about" niche game will be realistic, though.

Flashy combative moves belong in a fighting game or a action game, where character progression is measured more by how powerful the skills get. MMOs on the other hand need to keep a level of subtle that is anchored by physics of what your character is trying to do. It should not have to rely on flash to get it's point across. Skill descriptions and point distribution should serve this purpose. As well as actual effects of seeing your foes cringe or your allies rejoice.

Everything else just gets in the way and furthermore these effects are the first thing that go out the window once their appeal wears off and takes a backseat to obtaining maximum PC performance.

Without the flashy animations and particle effects you wouldn't have a clue what was hitting you from where. It's a limitation of the meduim. Some companies definitly get carried away though.

I like it. You don't. This doesn't make it stupid.

Originally posted by seniorfrito

When are MMO developers going to learn that flashy combat is just stupid? 

You mean when are MMO developers going to learn that YOU, perhaps me if you would be clear about what you consider flashy combat and others find flashy combat stupid.

I know I don't only speak for myself when I say that it removes large amounts of realism. 

You're always speaking on your own behalf, some might agree with it some might not.

Now most games you ask well what are you watching the combat for anyway because you should be watching your cooldowns?

I wonder why on earth should I look at my cooldowns? Perhaps the first few times I might take note of how long it might takes, but after those few times it's pretty automatic, unless people are really new to games they might need to focus on timers.

  But, that's another thing.  Combat is almost never engaging for these two reasons. 

For me without cooldowns it would be very unrealistic, but like I said I do not focus on cooldowns, they come naturaly, besides there are enough skills often with MMORPG so I am never forced to use one skill, yes I know many seem to use that one UBER skill most of the time, I enjoy mixing up my skills, even small damage one's

Because there's these unrealistic combat effects and/or you're watching your cooldowns.  I'm still waiting for a game that doesn't get ruined by gameplay.

How to play a game if it does not have gameplay? Please explain.

I keep expecting the next most talked about game to be a game I've been looking for only to find it's not.  Anyway, does anyone else that enjoys watching their characters in combat feel the same way?  Is all realism spoiled by simple things that the game could have done without?

I feel you might get more out of perhaps future console MMO's? or simply stick with FPS multiplayer games, that's what I also love playing when I am not in the mood for MMORPG gameplay and like I said a MMORPG without cooldowns makes them pretty unrealistic for me, but like I also said I do not focus on cooldowns, really see no reason why I should, it's the whole package of gameplay as a game without gameplay wouldn't be a game now would it.

Originally posted by Murdus

when will customers learn that not everyone shares the same opinion?

Never, because we all know that our own opinion is the only one that matters and everybody else is talking crap.

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Originally posted by Omega3

 

I find it funny when anytime someone calls for more realism in combat, there is always a brat coming up with the elves /fantasy thing.

 

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Insulting me over my opinion on the internet is fairly unbecoming when you're positing me as the brat.

That subject is brought up, quite possibly, to illustrate the fact that it's a bit silly to call for realism in a medium that is, by its very nature, unrealistic.

Maybe (maybe), one could attempt to suspend disbelief for the flashy combat in the same way that one does for the already existing fireballs and frost giants.

Regardless, flashy combat keeps combat viscerally exciting, and helps denote what's going on on the screen. Most people, as I'm aware, would rather watch something interesting than a few people bluntly bludgeoning each other.

This brings up another point: the fact that MMO combat in itself is generally unrealistic. Being killed instantly by a single solid blow is not fun. Combat systems built around complete avoidance upon risk of death are not fun given what most MMO developers have to work with when it comes to game systems.

I suppose my main question is: why do you feel realistic-looking combat is so important, but care little or not at all for the effects of combat, game world, and character properties to be realistic?

Of course, the point of flashy combat is to be interesting and descriptive, not fill your screen with light. I can agree with poorly-done combat being difficult to discern and not particularly fulfilling, but that is an issue with animators and designers, not flashy combat.