Originally posted by Swoogie

 

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Originally posted by VoIgore

 

I think there were (and still are) too many failing games forcing us to use the word "fail" too much.

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This is the exact response I was going to give. Right on! This was a simple answer too!

 

Then you both fail! Oh noes! I used fail. Doh! I used it again!

This is part of the wider movement in our language which I think of as emowords. Fail, hate, love, etc. all being applied inappropriately. You love you wife, you can’t love a game patch. You hate your worst enemy, you can’t hate a new buff power.

This trivialisation of words with heavy emotional weight is quite ridiculous and leads to a one reaction response to everything.

Correction "Über" is a legitimate word, meaning super in latin, hyper in greek and over in english

Uber, on the other hand most dictionaries havent heard of.

To sum up this thread might we just say that usage of such over-used and tired idiotic internet memes is blatantly a failure at communication.

In other words as a speaker of ANY language, "YOU FAIL!"

"GAME OVER"

-X

Originally posted by HavenAE2035

Correction "Über" is a legitimate word, meaning super in latin, hyper in greek and over in english

Uber, on the other hand most dictionaries havent heard of.

To sum up this thread might we just say that usage of such over-used and tired idiotic internet memes is blatantly a failure at communication.

In other words as a speaker of ANY language, "YOU FAIL!"

 

"GAME OVER"

 

-X

 

This guy just won the thread!  =D

I really disapprove of much of the way we tend to use slang such as "fail" and "noob," but there is a reason those words came into use. There are specific connotations that really cannot be completely conveyed using traditional words or using words in their traditional sense. We probably do use the word fail too much, but it does not really mean failure in every case. However, discussions like this can be helpful to remind us to think about the words we use and why we use them.

Originally posted by Dubhlaith

I really disapprove of much of the way we tend to use slang such as "fail" and "noob," but there is a reason those words came into use. There are specific connotations that really cannot be completely conveyed using traditional words or using words in their traditional sense. We probably do use the word fail too much, but it does not really mean failure in every case. However, discussions like this can be helpful to remind us to think about the words we use and why we use them.

 So let me get this straight...

There are certain situations that cannot be accurately described by using words in their traditional sense.  So instead we use a single word that is used in a fashion that beyond anything else is mechanically inappropriate to mak a rather vague unsupported review of a product?

So in your idiology is it better to say about a game such as, World of Warcraft that...

World of Warcraft is a crappy game, they are constantly changing EVERYTHING to suit the complaints of a few who somehow lack the basic motor functions required to adequately play the game with any kind of effciency.  On top of which the game is plagued by countless teen and pre-teenagers who show no respect or caring for their fellow human beings.  Who constantly spam the chatways with rude obnoxious and sometimes (most times) vulgar behavior. I'm sure it is fine for some it's just not something I enjoy playing anymore.

or

WOW ZOMG That game is SO FAIL So many QQ and Nubz it's st00pid, LAWL

FAIL!

So you tell me..  

Which is a more thought-out DESCRIPTIVE portayal of the game?

Which is an epic struggle with a native language to get a miniscule point across?

On to more important issues...

Yes there is a reason some of these words came into being.  "Noob" for instance is derivitive of Newb, short for Newbie meant to describe a player who is new and lacks the skill of more experienced gamers.  Initially this was thought to be helpful as it pointed out who might need some help or pointers.  As this time however, newb has transgressed to noob or nub and is used to highlight a person's inherent inadequacies regardless of their gaming experience.

The problem isn't necessarily the usage or original intention of the "word" but the perversions they undergo to suit the needs of people without the ability to articulate or otherwise communicate appropriately with those of us with higher brain function.

Ultimately most idioms gamers use don't bother me (noob, nub, pwn) however there are some that irk me beyond the limits of my fragile sanity (L2P, Fail, Win, QQ). The first three are perversions or a typo that caught on famously.  The last are either inappropriate usage (due to lack of respect for ones self to accurately command the english language, you want to be "win" start there okay kiddies?) while the other two are sheer laziness.  (L2P? Learn to type full words)

Anyway, I'm staying away from this thread now because it is starting to bother me.

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Originally posted by HavenAE2035

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Originally posted by Dubhlaith

I really disapprove of much of the way we tend to use slang such as "fail" and "noob," but there is a reason those words came into use. There are specific connotations that really cannot be completely conveyed using traditional words or using words in their traditional sense. We probably do use the word fail too much, but it does not really mean failure in every case. However, discussions like this can be helpful to remind us to think about the words we use and why we use them.

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So let me get this straight...

There are certain situations that cannot be accurately described by using words in their traditional sense. So instead we use a single word that is used in a fashion that beyond anything else is mechanically inappropriate to mak a rather vague unsupported review of a product?
So in your idiology is it better to say about a game such as, World of Warcraft that...
World of Warcraft is a crappy game, they are constantly changing EVERYTHING to suit the complaints of a few who somehow lack the basic motor functions required to adequately play the game with any kind of effciency. On top of which the game is plagued by countless teen and pre-teenagers who show no respect or caring for their fellow human beings. Who constantly spam the chatways with rude obnoxious and sometimes (most times) vulgar behavior. I'm sure it is fine for some it's just not something I enjoy playing anymore.
or
WOW ZOMG That game is SO FAIL So many QQ and Nubz it's st00pid, LAWL
FAIL!
So you tell me..
Which is a more thought-out DESCRIPTIVE portayal of the game?
Which is an epic struggle with a native language to get a miniscule point across?
On to more important issues...
Yes there is a reason some of these words came into being. "Noob" for instance is derivitive of Newb, short for Newbie meant to describe a player who is new and lacks the skill of more experienced gamers. Initially this was thought to be helpful as it pointed out who might need some help or pointers. As this time however, newb has transgressed to noob or nub and is used to highlight a person's inherent inadequacies regardless of their gaming experience.
The problem isn't necessarily the usage or original intention of the "word" but the perversions they undergo to suit the needs of people without the ability to articulate or otherwise communicate appropriately with those of us with higher brain function.
Ultimately most idioms gamers use don't bother me (noob, nub, pwn) however there are some that irk me beyond the limits of my fragile sanity (L2P, Fail, Win, QQ). The first three are perversions or a typo that caught on famously. The last are either inappropriate usage (due to lack of respect for ones self to accurately command the english language, you want to be "win" start there okay kiddies?) while the other two are sheer laziness. (L2P? Learn to type full words)
Anyway, I'm staying away from this thread now because it is starting to bother me.

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To answer your questions, obviously the former is a more descriptive and well-thought statement regarding WoW. I would actually tend to agree with it, but that is neither here nor there.

However, that is an example you chose in order to make the slang sound as ridiculous as possible. I will not deny that the way some people use these slang words is inappropriate, and you will note that I began my post by noting as much. I believe that this sort of use of these words is counter to intelligent discourse, but stupid people abound, and I tend to ignore or mock them because you cannot have intelligent discourse with then in any event.

I am well aware of how most slang has come into being, at least in English. However, the etymology of a word is not as important to this discussion, at least in my mind, as the core purpose for which these words were coined. Most of what we use slang for could be explained more thoroughly or more completely, but having slang makes communication easier within a community, this one being gamers, because the community agrees in a general sense what words mean.

As you say, noob is a word used to describe someone new or inexperienced. Some people use it as an insult, but that is part of the etymology of the slang. Depending on the spelling and the context, the word can mean either a new person or a generally inept person.

Mob is perhaps a better example of my originally intended point, which was that this slang is useful and should not criticised too harshly. Mob is derived from the term mobile object, but the derivation is not important here. In fact, most players do not even know that, but they use the term and are part of the community and accepts the slang and allows it to be useful. Saying "mobs" is much more accurate than "enemies" or "monsters," because not all mobs are enemies, and they are not all monsters. There really is not another single word that could completely and accurately refer to all of the roaming, killable entities running about in a game world.

While I will agree that gamer slang is not always used well or for good purposes, no slang is always sensical or well-used. But I think you, and some others here that criticise the slang we use, are missing how useful that slang can be. If we want to make it better, perhaps we can engage the people that do not know or care about the slang they are using and try to make them understand and/or care. But if they will not, they are probably not someone that you want to be spending your time with in the game anyway.

On a totally different note, I enjoy gamer slang because it gives me a fun way to "screen" people for pugs (See, more slang! And you all know what I mean!). When I get a tell from someone wanting to join my party, or wanting me to join theirs that does not use capitalization or punctuation or proper spelling, and is simply a string of acronyms and slang words, I can immediately tell that person will not be a good player and I can tell them to piss off. This enables me to have much more pleasant grouping experiences.

Edit:

After reading more of this thread, I wanted to say that while Zorndorf might not be entirely polite in his assertions, he is very much correct. That is an appropriate standard by which to judge games. If there are hundreds of MMOs, and one game has over half of the market share by itself, I think it is safe to say that the others are doing something wrong. Yes, many of those players are new or too stupid to play or understand other games, but they are not the entire playerbase. I do not like WoW, but I have played it. I choose not to now because of the way gear triples a characters power and the way higher item level gear can make one player far and away more powerful than someone else. I do not like the carrot-on-a-stick Blizzard has created. But their game is "win" while others are "fail" for one simple reason. Polish. There is not a game out there that is even half as polished as WoW, even when it came out. It just does not exist. That is why people play it. Most people have zero tolerance for even the slightest difficulty in their gaming experience. There is a reason there is a monopoly in any industry. There is a reason Microsoft is "win." Yes, there are problems, and I do not like the company in general, but other operating systems just do not have the power and the polish and ease of use. And ease of use is what most people want.

It's used a lot in FPS', people will say it if someone does something really crap. Such as 'lol fail', 'epic fail', etc. This is my experience anyway and admittedly I have been guilty of its usuage from time to time.

But yeah it's overused in these forums, you'll see it used the most after any given game has been released for a week.

 This thread is the definition of fail.

C wut I did thar?

After reading more of this thread, I wanted to say that while Zorndorf might not be entirely polite in his assertions, he is very much correct. That is an appropriate standard by which to judge games. If there are hundreds of MMOs, and one game has over half of the market share by itself, I think it is safe to say that the others are doing something wrong. Yes, many of those players are new or too stupid to play or understand other games, but they are not the entire playerbase. I do not like WoW, but I have played it. I choose not to now because of the way gear triples a characters power and the way higher item level gear can make one player far and away more powerful than someone else. I do not like the carrot-on-a-stick Blizzard has created. But their game is "win" while others are "fail" for one simple reason. Polish. There is not a game out there that is even half as polished as WoW, even when it came out. It just does not exist. That is why people play it. Most people have zero tolerance for even the slightest difficulty in their gaming experience. There is a reason there is a monopoly in any industry. There is a reason Microsoft is "win." Yes, there are problems, and I do not like the company in general, but other operating systems just do not have the power and the polish and ease of use. And ease of use is what most people want.

This is why I hate reading forums on MMOs. You can not lump all MMOs together. So no he is incorrect. Judging 2 MMOs for example World of Warcraft to Darkfall, should never happen. Yes, they are both MMOs, however they both have a differant target audiance, and one will always have a bigger audiance than the other. For example Legend of Zelda is an RPG, and so is Final Fantasy, Both have huge fan bases, however not all Zelda fans like Final Fantasy and not all Final Fantasy Fans like Zelda. Why? Because they are differant games, set in differant worlds, with differant lore. Amount of subscribers does not prove anything toward the games merit. A game that tries something new and succedes to make profit is doing way better than a game that just repeats the same old cookie cutter scheme and makes way more money.

.

People are using the word fail b4 games even launch! LOL thats fail!

To Dubhlaith.  My appologies but I don't think it prudent to quote our last two posts as they are a bit lengthy, though well thought out and refreshing.

Basically the issue comes down then to usefulness.  As you've pointed out and I concede to you some idioms of the internet community are indeed very useful because they are originated to discuss the game in a technical fashion that most people will understand.  Mob for instance or zone, instance, these are actually slang words used by the gaming community because unless you are a gamer you would have no idea their true meaning.

My point wasn't to use gamer slang in the most ridiculous situation imiginable but to show that it is more accurate to explain yourself fully WHY you think a game is "fail" than to simply say "FAIL!".  The point, is that if one truely wishes somone to take their opinion seriously or with any kind of real value one must articulate and expound upon the point they are trying to make.

To sum it up, words like mob, newb, tank, ect.. are indeed useful.  Also, when accronyms are used to label zones.

Words like Fail, pwn, Win, noob, nub not so much, and based solely on their usage.

My aversion to the words win and fail in particular stem more from their blatant disregard for language mechanics than their actual meaning. Granted that is some of the point of slang, but even slang has its limitation.  For example you're traipsing about an mmo and suddenly a super rare item drops an you say, "WIN!"  Fine understandable, that is a type of win for you.

A new game is coming out in september that no one has even played just read about and someone stops by the forum and says "Fail!"  This is an unessecary and inexplicable use of the word.  This is when the word breaks beyond the boundary of usefulness and into ridiculous.

Not that this entire conversation really matters much beyond flexing our e-penes. Afterall the larger part of the gaming community will continue to misuse even slang until they grow tired of it and more on to even more perversions.  So really whats the point?

Not read the whole post, so dunno if it was posted before ( I failed ) ...

For those interested ... the history of fail ... http://vimeo.com/2108952

It's definitely used far too often. Some good, fun games are being discarded as 'failures' by trolls when they actually represent a fun experience if you like the gameplay (AoC, WAR, LOTRO are all labelled failures here but are fun diversions, with their faults sure, but they are all good games if they are your thing). Hell, I have seen people call Champions Online a 'failure' here, after just a few days, thats crazy! Sure its not perfect, I have my own gripes about it, but a 'failure'? That's just insane.

If a game sells 700k copies in its first month, and by the third month is down to 300K subscribers that is fail. No other way to spin it. Successful MMOs gain subscribers. Failures don't.

You EQ2/WAR/AOC fanbois just refuse to believe you're playing an inferior product. That is fine. I'm sure there are a few people who think Domino's is just great.

Originally posted by CyanSword

It's definitely used far too often. Some good, fun games are being discarded as 'failures' by trolls when they actually represent a fun experience if you like the gameplay (AoC, WAR, LOTRO are all labelled failures here but are fun diversions, with their faults sure, but they are all good games if they are your thing). Hell, I have seen people call Champions Online a 'failure' here, after just a few days, thats crazy! Sure its not perfect, I have my own gripes about it, but a 'failure'? That's just insane.

 Well that's because AoC and WAR were failures, specifically WAR. But that one has some backing if you look at initial sales estimates and if you look at a month by month subscriber estimate. The sub numbers plummeted so quickly and are now decently low, and when you look at the sales numbers it looks really bad.

I haven't heard many people seriously say LotRO is a failure, since it's supposedly 2-3rd depending on the estimate or whether it is money made/monthly subscribers.

As for Champions, yes that's kind of what I think inspired this post to begin with. When people try a new game and like it they call it a failure. But in this case the numbers aren't very impressive. Given that success or failure should probably go along with money made though it is tough to say, would depend on how much it cost them to make and if the numbers grow/shrink or remain fairly stable. Yes Champions is the best example of people using fail to quickly and too often.

Yes it is used way to much its insane. But of course every game will be a fail in the eyes of the WoW players. All they think about is subs and really IMO subs don't decide if a game failed or not.  Heck In my world WoW doesn't even exist anymore so any game that has like 300k subs to me is a success.

Originally posted by brostyn

If a game sells 700k copies in its first month, and by the third month is down to 300K subscribers that is fail. No other way to spin it. Successful MMOs gain subscribers. Failures don't.

You EQ2/WAR/AOC fanbois just refuse to believe you're playing an inferior product. That is fine. I'm sure there are a few people who think Domino's is just great.

Failure is a game that sinks. If it stays a float and draws in revenue then its not fail.

Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

I haven't heard many people seriously say LotRO is a failure, since it's supposedly 2-3rd depending on the estimate or whether it is money made/monthly subscribers.

By the same token though they should see it as a failure, it didn't sell anywhere near as many as AOC or WAR for example (not even close) so while it may have the same level of subscribers as those now it just avoided a big fall off to get there.

So if a game has 100-150k subs (which is probably where all three of those games are at) but one never had more than that, and the other had more and lost them are they both failures or is just the one that fell a 'failure'? i.e. is the decision on whether you consider a game a 'failure' or not purely based on sub numbers or is it the history of the product?

Right now there are probably six or seven major MMOs in the 100-150k region in the west - EQ, EQ2, AOC, WAR, LOTRO, FFXI, (maybe Lineage 2 as well?) and now maybe Champions Online. So are they all failures because they are in that range?

Can't an MMO be in that range and be seen as a decent game. Sure they all 'failed' to challenge the behemoth that is WoW, but it doesnt mean they should be branded 'failures' in total. They all probably make nice profits for their makers (in the long term at least).

Originally posted by aleos

Originally posted by brostyn

If a game sells 700k copies in its first month, and by the third month is down to 300K subscribers that is fail. No other way to spin it. Successful MMOs gain subscribers. Failures don't.

You EQ2/WAR/AOC fanbois just refuse to believe you're playing an inferior product. That is fine. I'm sure there are a few people who think Domino's is just great.

 

Failure is a game that sinks. If it stays a float and draws in revenue then its not fail.

I don't agree. If one gets an F at school it means you failed to comprehend and apply that lesson. It doesn't mean you're kicked out of school.

Fail not only means to stop operating. Look it up.

In fact, I did it for you.

# fail to do something; leave something undone; "She failed to notice that her child was no longer in his crib"; "The secretary failed to call the ...
# be unsuccessful; "Where do today's public schools fail?"; "The attempt to rescue the hostages failed miserably"
# disappoint, prove undependable to; abandon, forsake; "His sense of smell failed him this time"; "His strength finally failed him"; "His children failed him in the crisis"
# stop operating or functioning; "The engine finally went"; "The car died on the road"; "The bus we travelled in broke down on the way to town"; "The coffee maker broke"; "The engine failed on the way to town"; "her eyesight went after the accident"
# be unable; "I fail to understand your motives"
# judge unacceptable; "The teacher failed six students"
# fail to get a passing grade; "She studied hard but failed nevertheless"; "Did I fail the test?"
# fall short in what is expected; "She failed in her obligations as a good daughter-in-law"; "We must not fail his obligation to the victims of the Holocaust"
# become bankrupt or insolvent; fail financially and close; "The toy company went bankrupt after the competition hired cheap Mexican labor"; "A number of banks failed that year"
# prove insufficient; "The water supply for the town failed after a long drought"
# get worse; "Her health is declining"

Originally posted by brostyn

Originally posted by aleos

Originally posted by brostyn

If a game sells 700k copies in its first month, and by the third month is down to 300K subscribers that is fail. No other way to spin it. Successful MMOs gain subscribers. Failures don't.

You EQ2/WAR/AOC fanbois just refuse to believe you're playing an inferior product. That is fine. I'm sure there are a few people who think Domino's is just great.

 

Failure is a game that sinks. If it stays a float and draws in revenue then its not fail.

I don't agree. If one gets an F at school it means you failed to comprehend and apply that lesson. It doesn't mean you're kicked out of school.

 

Fail not only means to stop operating. Look it up.

 

In fact, I did it for you.

 

# fail to do something; leave something undone; "She failed to notice that her child was no longer in his crib"; "The secretary failed to call the ...
# be unsuccessful; "Where do today's public schools fail?"; "The attempt to rescue the hostages failed miserably"
# disappoint, prove undependable to; abandon, forsake; "His sense of smell failed him this time"; "His strength finally failed him"; "His children failed him in the crisis"
# stop operating or functioning; "The engine finally went"; "The car died on the road"; "The bus we travelled in broke down on the way to town"; "The coffee maker broke"; "The engine failed on the way to town"; "her eyesight went after the accident"
# be unable; "I fail to understand your motives"
# judge unacceptable; "The teacher failed six students"
# fail to get a passing grade; "She studied hard but failed nevertheless"; "Did I fail the test?"
# fall short in what is expected; "She failed in her obligations as a good daughter-in-law"; "We must not fail his obligation to the victims of the Holocaust"
# become bankrupt or insolvent; fail financially and close; "The toy company went bankrupt after the competition hired cheap Mexican labor"; "A number of banks failed that year"
# prove insufficient; "The water supply for the town failed after a long drought"
# get worse; "Her health is declining"

I can't agree with EQ2 being a failure. I think the game was good its been operating longer than AOC and WAR going 5 years and had tons of expansions I am quite sure its been profitable. Now WAR on the other hand sniff I can't argue and man I am a huge DAOC fanboy so it hurts to say it but saying it heals me :)

Originally posted by brostyn

Originally posted by aleos

Originally posted by brostyn

If a game sells 700k copies in its first month, and by the third month is down to 300K subscribers that is fail. No other way to spin it. Successful MMOs gain subscribers. Failures don't.

You EQ2/WAR/AOC fanbois just refuse to believe you're playing an inferior product. That is fine. I'm sure there are a few people who think Domino's is just great.

 

Failure is a game that sinks. If it stays a float and draws in revenue then its not fail.

I don't agree. If one gets an F at school it means you failed to comprehend and apply that lesson. It doesn't mean you're kicked out of school.

 

Fail not only means to stop operating. Look it up.

 

In fact, I did it for you.

 

# fail to do something; leave something undone; "She failed to notice that her child was no longer in his crib"; "The secretary failed to call the ...
# be unsuccessful; "Where do today's public schools fail?"; "The attempt to rescue the hostages failed miserably"
# disappoint, prove undependable to; abandon, forsake; "His sense of smell failed him this time"; "His strength finally failed him"; "His children failed him in the crisis"
# stop operating or functioning; "The engine finally went"; "The car died on the road"; "The bus we travelled in broke down on the way to town"; "The coffee maker broke"; "The engine failed on the way to town"; "her eyesight went after the accident"
# be unable; "I fail to understand your motives"
# judge unacceptable; "The teacher failed six students"
# fail to get a passing grade; "She studied hard but failed nevertheless"; "Did I fail the test?"
# fall short in what is expected; "She failed in her obligations as a good daughter-in-law"; "We must not fail his obligation to the victims of the Holocaust"
# become bankrupt or insolvent; fail financially and close; "The toy company went bankrupt after the competition hired cheap Mexican labor"; "A number of banks failed that year"
# prove insufficient; "The water supply for the town failed after a long drought"
# get worse; "Her health is declining"

These are MMOs we are talking about not test scores in a classroom. The common goal of these games is to generate money not get 10million subscribers even though it would be a bonus the common goal is to get paid. They don't care what your opinion is if you havnt noticed lately. And your definition of fail and the fails provided by your literal terms contradict one another so...

Originally posted by tyorke

Oh god too many topic about what game failed or is falling or is gonna fail.

with all of this game cooming out... people will change game so fast that i think they are not gonna make any mmorpgs ever
i know there are game that are not good, or u could not like but that's

i dont want even talk about that 
I just want to know how many people think it is correct to use the word fail
 

"Fail" is a term the wow'bies use. right along with WoW killer. These people think that an MMO has to have millions of subs or its a fail.Thats not the case. If they can make a profit its a sucess, a little secret some companies can turn a profit on 50k subs, or less. Yes its overused but  I guess thats to be expected since where its coming from.

Definately yes, "this game fails at this" and blaablaa, seen it all and don't really even bother to read any more text when "fail" comes up..