Originally posted by jrs77

I can really understand, what the OP tries to say there.

STO and SWTOR will not have any type of content that encourages teaming up with others.

Why is that a problem? Solo-content is what players want and that is what they are getting.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

 Why is that a problem? Solo-content is what players want and that is what they are getting.

Having a lot of content that can be soloed is important for any MMO. Nobody wants to stand around all day screaming "LFG" for hours on end in the hope that some random person will group with them. DDO and FFXI had a very hard time getting and keeping players because they didn't offer enough content for solo players.

BUT

While solo content is important, so is group content. Solo content will make it possible for people to level up their characters and give them something to do when their friends/guild aren't around. But group content is the reason most people will stay in the game in the long run. And group content is usually what the most hardcore players are looking for.

Think about it this way: If all the content in the game could be soloed, what would happen to all the guilds? What point would there be in even creating a guild at all if there was no reason to group? Where would all the players who enjoy running guilds and teaming up with other players go? And have you ever heard of someone soloing PvP?

Originally posted by Raltar

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Think about it this way: If all the content in the game could be soloed, what would happen to all the guilds? What point would there be in even creating a guild at all if there was no reason to group? Where would all the players who enjoy running guilds and teaming up with other players go? And have you ever heard of someone soloing PvP?

Yeah. All the battlegrounds in WOW are solo to some extent. You join without first forming a team. You do NOT have to be in a group.

And guilds will form anyway just because people like to chat. At least we can do away with all the guild applications that give you a test on your character mechanics before you can join.

     I love startrek...

If they screw this up I'm going to do what the gypsies did to Angel the vampire on Buffy (my wife made me watch it lol ) and curse them with a soul.  That way they can be tormented for the rest of their lives from all the evil they've done. 

Originally posted by Raltar

Originally posted by nariusseldon

 Why is that a problem? Solo-content is what players want and that is what they are getting.

 

Having a lot of content that can be soloed is important for any MMO. Nobody wants to stand around all day screaming "LFG" for hours on end in the hope that some random person will group with them. DDO and FFXI had a very hard time getting and keeping players because they didn't offer enough content for solo players.

BUT

While solo content is important, so is group content. Solo content will make it possible for people to level up their characters and give them something to do when their friends/guild aren't around. But group content is the reason most people will stay in the game in the long run. And group content is usually what the most hardcore players are looking for.

Think about it this way: If all the content in the game could be soloed, what would happen to all the guilds? What point would there be in even creating a guild at all if there was no reason to group? Where would all the players who enjoy running guilds and teaming up with other players go? And have you ever heard of someone soloing PvP?

I agree on both counts. It's always hard to satisfy both types of players. Hopefully there will be some things in game that are vitally important that requires groups. THis IP has tons of possibilities for that. It could be a large battle in space, the raiding of a Borg Cube or even away missions.We'll just have to wait and see.

I wouldn't have any big issues with the game (other than the cash shop) IF they weren't calling it Star Trek.

This isn't Trek - it's Star Fleet Battles The MMO.

In this game, Spock, Scotty, Bones, Uhura, and Sulu are faceless NPCs.

I'm no Trek fanatic. I've never gone to a convention, never worn or owned Spock ears. Even so, what Cryptic is doing with this IP offends me.

I am truly dreading this. Star Trek is not about being alone. It is about being apart of something that makes you who you are. I do not like the idea that you HAVE to be a Captain. I would have much rather been an onboard Archaelogist or Tac Officer. Instead, now I have to be a stupid Captain. WTF CRYTPIC!? WTF!?

Originally posted by LtJohnnyRico

I am truly dreading this. Star Trek is not about being alone. It is about being apart of something that makes you who you are. I do not like the idea that you HAVE to be a Captain. I would have much rather been an onboard Archaelogist or Tac Officer. Instead, now I have to be a stupid Captain. WTF CRYTPIC!? WTF!?

They just have no regard for the IP, at all.

I have real doubts that ST could be turned into a good MMO, but  Cryptic isn't even going to try.

Originally posted by LtJohnnyRico

I am truly dreading this. Star Trek is not about being alone. It is about being apart of something that makes you who you are. I do not like the idea that you HAVE to be a Captain. I would have much rather been an onboard Archaelogist or Tac Officer. Instead, now I have to be a stupid Captain. WTF CRYTPIC!? WTF!?

Alone???? Not sure what that is about unless you are referencing not being about to have all your friends on the same ship. Even the first iteration of the game by Perpetual was going to be extremely difficult to carry off that way. Cyrptic has said they may add something like that later. As to being "alone", I would say no. You can group in fleets in space and you can group for away missions on the ground...so you are only going to be alone as you make yourself.

Originally posted by Gruug

Alone???? Not sure what that is about unless you are referencing not being about to have all your friends on the same ship.

That's the way Star Trek IS. Every series has been about a crew of skilled professionals working together to solve problems using their individual abilities. Not about a bunch of captains going their own way and occasionally meeting to have an adventure.

Even the first iteration of the game by Perpetual was going to be extremely difficult to carry off that way.

Indeed. Some IPs won't make for a good MMO. Period.

Cyrptic has said they may add something like that later.

Standard devspeak regarding any feature which won't be in at release.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Gruug

Alone???? Not sure what that is about unless you are referencing not being about to have all your friends on the same ship.

That's the way Star Trek IS. Every series has been about a crew of skilled professionals working together to solve problems using their individual abilities. Not about a bunch of captains going their own way and occasionally meeting to have an adventure.

Even the first iteration of the game by Perpetual was going to be extremely difficult to carry off that way.

Indeed. Some IPs won't make for a good MMO. Period.

Cyrptic has said they may add something like that later.

Standard devspeak regarding any feature which won't be in at release.

 QFT.

 

I don't want to team up with other Captains. I want to be apart of a crew with a good Captain that actually does missions. If I wanted to play fleet wars, I'd go to EVE. But I want to be in the Star Trek universe, not the diluted, non-fan friendly stuff that Cryptic is proposing. I will undoubtedly play it just to play it at first but I doubt I can really enjoy being a Captain as my favorite part of Star Trek was never ship battles but rather the characters.

Originally posted by LtJohnnyRico

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Gruug

Alone???? Not sure what that is about unless you are referencing not being about to have all your friends on the same ship.

That's the way Star Trek IS. Every series has been about a crew of skilled professionals working together to solve problems using their individual abilities. Not about a bunch of captains going their own way and occasionally meeting to have an adventure.

Even the first iteration of the game by Perpetual was going to be extremely difficult to carry off that way.

Indeed. Some IPs won't make for a good MMO. Period.

Cyrptic has said they may add something like that later.

Standard devspeak regarding any feature which won't be in at release.

 QFT.

 

I don't want to team up with other Captains. I want to be apart of a crew with a good Captain that actually does missions. If I wanted to play fleet wars, I'd go to EVE. But I want to be in the Star Trek universe, not the diluted, non-fan friendly stuff that Cryptic is proposing. I will undoubtedly play it just to play it at first but I doubt I can really enjoy being a Captain as my favorite part of Star Trek was never ship battles but rather the characters.

 

I still prefer to wait and see what the game is going to be like. While some of it may not be my cup of tea, I am sure others parts will be. As per "diluting" what is Star Trek, well, Star Trek is pretty much anything and everything in the Star Trek universe...not JUST being a part of a crew.

Frankly, the type of game you are discribing is exactly the game that most people will not play. Why? Because most of John Q. Public has no desire to team up with complete strangers just to play a game. Why would or should anyone be FORCED to team up in the first place. Should it not be a matter of choice. And, based upon human nature, how many people are going to conform to being subserviant to a particular Captain in the first place. Most people want to be the leader of their own destiny and not captives of someone else's.

Best advice I can give those that are "insisting" upon player crews is this, don't play this game. For the rest, we will have fun with the game as conceptialised.

Originally posted by Gruug

Originally posted by LtJohnnyRico

 

 

I still prefer to wait and see what the game is going to be like. While some of it may not be my cup of tea, I am sure others parts will be. As per "diluting" what is Star Trek, well, Star Trek is pretty much anything and everything in the Star Trek universe...not JUST being a part of a crew.

Frankly, the type of game you are discribing is exactly the game that most people will not play. Why? Because most of John Q. Public has no desire to team up with complete strangers just to play a game. Why would or should anyone be FORCED to team up in the first place. Should it not be a matter of choice. And, based upon human nature, how many people are going to conform to being subserviant to a particular Captain in the first place. Most people want to be the leader of their own destiny and not captives of someone else's.

Best advice I can give those that are "insisting" upon player crews is this, don't play this game. For the rest, we will have fun with the game as conceptialised.

Good advice but I doubt that it will be followed. What mystifies me is the ones who think the game shouldn't be made at all just because they think it's an IP that can never make a good game.I don't quite understand that logic and I'm glad that they will never have any control over popular IPs. The fact that some are actually  "offended" over this is beyond laughable. For goodness sakes folks it is just a game. It isn't a plan to cure cancer or any of the millions of other things in this world that is so much more deserving of  passion.

No forced grouping? Sounds good to me. Im sure there will be times you can group if you choose and if that isnt good enough for the heavy groupers i guess they will find something else to play. Not difficult when you think about it. You either buy the game or  you dont.

Originally posted by LtJohnnyRico

I am truly dreading this. Star Trek is not about being alone. It is about being apart of something that makes you who you are. I do not like the idea that you HAVE to be a Captain. I would have much rather been an onboard Archaelogist or Tac Officer. Instead, now I have to be a stupid Captain. WTF CRYTPIC!? WTF!?

Then don't play the game.

And you really want some stranger player to BOSS OVER you for the next 2 hrs play session? No thank you for me.

There are plenty of people who would like to be captains. I guess the game is designed for them.

Originally posted by Howard2341

I don't see the good that can come out of the direction Cyrptic is going with STO.  They are taking so much away from the game, so much potential.  Basically dumbing it down.  There are plenty of ways to cater to a large audience.  Starship Interiors are a large part of Star Trek.  Im not talking where you HAVE to group to fly a starship, but give us the option.  The NPC system they have inplace sounds really great, but what if me as a Science captain decide I want to do a mission with some of my friends.  Will we ALWAYS have to fly our own ships? Yes at times that might be what we want.  But when the time permits, I think it would be a hell of a lot of fun for me and a few of my friends/guild mates can get on a ship and go explore, maybe go to the nuetral zone for some PvP.  Maybe run a mission.  Bascially be a crew and enjoy the game and experience.  Not just get in our own ships to go Peew Peew Peew and do the Eposodic( ie Instanced) missions.  Yes I agree there needs to be some instances, but outside those specific areas, leave a decent portion of the galaxy open, when there is risk flying to certain areas to explore, there is greater reward and enjoyment. I know people will say that having a crew of say 4 people on a starship you wont have anything/ or much to do. But I call bullsh*t.  There can be plenty to do.  And besides, your not ALWAYS going to be grouped on a starship together so I think those people are blowing it way freaking out of proportion.  If someone leaves then whoevers ship it is there NPC guy will replace them, and the captain can delegate his/her responcibilites to the NPC or another crew member.  Even 2 man crews could be lots of fun.  One person flys/targets. Does the shooting.  The other does repairs/delgate shields.  Run sensor sweeps for information, etc etc.  There can be plenty to do. It doesnt interfier with solo people, doesnt give people that group a huge edge, so its stays a level playing field as any game can be.  Adds a whole lot of fun.  People then get to feel like they are in the Trek universe which is what most people playing will want.   Plus if the gameplay is sound it can stand alone and other people that might not really care about trek will play because its a good/unique game.

 

This guys post helps illistrate what I am saying.

""""""""""""""

[quote]I agree 100%,these developers need to start implementing their ideas fully and quit giving the people half ass products.

I can go all the way down the line and name things that should have been implemented in games.The biggest example that falls in the same category is EVE.It has literally no exploration at all,so here you have a game that is about visting thousands of solar systems and planets,but you can't actually do anything.Even the ship that the ENTIRE game is designed around,you baby,your project in the works ,is nothing more than a cheap housing with you as a make believe operator.

I know many people complain there is too much Fantasy,but realistically a Space type game needs to go the whole nine yards before they gain any credibility.The ONLY game that put forth lots of content was the now infamous SWG,as far as NON Fantasy games go.

If you are going to use Space stations,then open them up and make them an active part of the game,not some static mesh,nobody cares about.Spaceships ,same thing,they SHOULD have interiors/controls/engine room a working crew.Geesh what better way to make guilds an active part of a MMO game than to allow a full crew onto a ship giving everyone special duties to make the ship happen.You could still have small single man pods,but also large say 50 man ships,where your whole guild can get involved.It creates a MORE immersive REALISTIC game,where you have mechanics/cooks/a captain/officers/explorers/security ,the whole nine yards.

This would allow players to hit the forums and say you know what,this game is amazing and full of content,not just some run of the mill cheap adaptation that plays more like a MUd than a 3d interaction game.[/wuote]

Wall of text crits for 5,500,601 damage.
 

Originally posted by eric_w66

To the OP, do you really believe it'd be "Fun" for anyone to be a "Cook" on a Star Trek vessel?

Or even science officer? Engineer? Have you even thought about how you would make those FUN things for people to do on hours on end?

People cook in WoW.  STO would appeal more to roleplayers as well who would gladly take that role. You ever play a healer in an MMO?  Not exactly fun but an engineer falls into a similar role. 

Originally posted by kcypher2000

People cook in WoW.  STO would appeal more to roleplayers as well who would gladly take that role. You ever play a healer in an MMO?  Not exactly fun but an engineer falls into a similar role. 

Lots of people enjoy playing healers in MMOs, but you're right in that an engineer class could work in a similar way.

The people who say multi-player crews can't be done just are not very imaginative. Much like the devs.

Cryptic's stated vision for this game is so much less than the IP could provide.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Why is that a problem? Solo-content is what players want and that is what they are getting.

You are so wrong it is laughable.

Originally posted by eric_w66

To the OP, do you really believe it'd be "Fun" for anyone to be a "Cook" on a Star Trek vessel?

Or even science officer? Engineer? Have you even thought about how you would make those FUN things for people to do on hours on end?

LOL!

Anyone that has played SWG pre-NGE can easily counter this silly argument.

Not everyone likes to be a full combat class. Not everyone would want to be a captain on the ship.

Back in good old SWG there were so many people that didn't give a flying crock about combat.

There were people that enjoyed being pure politicians and build and maintain the whole guild city.

There were people that were hanging around in the Capital Cities changing people's appearances or buffing people up in cantina's as Entertainers.

Back then, people knew what the meaning of MMORPG actually stand for. Knew what socialising actually ment. Back then you actually had true Server communities!

It was exactly what made good old SWG such a great game. Despite it's bugs and issues.

People could be anything they wanted to be.

That's why STO will just be Epic FAIL with no longetivity at all. People will be bored of the game within months!

Nothing is more boring then to go Pew Pew Pew in a spaceship day in day out. Or do repetitive ground missions with NPC crews on random maps a la CoX.

Or do you think it's fun to do ground missions with 4 other captains on your side??  What a complete joke!! Ever seen ANY Star Trek episode where 5 captains ONLY beam to a planet surface for a mission??

You don't have to be a hardcore Trekkie (and I am sertainly not one) to see that Cryptic has absolutely no clue about what Star Trek really is!!

We got already a pleatora of Star Trek Single player and mutliplayer Space Shooter games out there! Why go play this one and pay a monthly fee?? And probably with a Cash shop as well!!

Cheers

Gah, this argument again.

And a mention of Pre-NGE SWG... the good old days. Me and a lady friend were into cosmetics... also part of the Empire... loved my "Hairstylist" title... *sniff*

Anyway, to the matter at hand. Player crews not in the game. Yeup. It's sad. I want them in, but I can understand the decision not to (BECAUSE I have a creative AND realistic mind). Are there ways too put them in and have it fun the whole time? I am sure there probably is, but the developement would mean making a whole new MMO 3 times over at least basically.

And as a side challange to those that say it's BS that it cannot be done, prove it. Design and present a full fledged MMO system that will keep someone in med bay for a majority of their play time. Otherwise, stop calling it BS and never proving it. Money -> Mouth.

On a FAR more serious issue than simpple player crews and such, the listed topic of this thread is FAR MORE RELEVENT.

STO to me, does seem like it is turning into a more single player based game. I honestly only see a few instances where players would even have the opportunity to interact.

1. The random events they mentioned, such as Borg invasions, but who has time to get to know one another in such a scenario.

2. Um, er... yeah. Nothing else from what was listed.

Space able to be gone through alone. Away missions able to be done solo. Crew members able too be gained solo.

Really, I do not see any way that actually grouping up or even talking to others is beneficial in the game based on the presented mechanics.

My hope is that closed Beta Players will be able to focus on this and either prove me wrong once NDA is lifted or convince the powers that be that something HAS to be done.

When it comes to an MMO, it really doesnt matter HOW player interdependency is done if there IS NO player interdependency. This should be your primary concern at this point. While I do enjoy gamees that offer independence, I prefer the grouping experience being far more valuable.

Originally posted by DanaDark

Gah, this argument again.

And a mention of Pre-NGE SWG... the good old days. Me and a lady friend were into cosmetics... also part of the Empire... loved my "Hairstylist" title... *sniff*

I myself get misty when I think back to the good ole days of lagging,bugging and broken missions. And the urban sprawl was SUCH a sight to behold.

Anyway, to the matter at hand. Player crews not in the game. Yeup. It's sad. I want them in, but I can understand the decision not to (BECAUSE I have a creative AND realistic mind). Are there ways too put them in and have it fun the whole time? I am sure there probably is, but the developement would mean making a whole new MMO 3 times over at least basically.

And as a side challange to those that say it's BS that it cannot be done, prove it. Design and present a full fledged MMO system that will keep someone in med bay for a majority of their play time. Otherwise, stop calling it BS and never proving it. Money -> Mouth.

Don't hold your breath. I'm sure a game could be made that keeps a player in the med bay. but very few would pay to play it. I keep mentioning second life to these people but for some reason even they won't touch it.

On a FAR more serious issue than simpple player crews and such, the listed topic of this thread is FAR MORE RELEVENT.

STO to me, does seem like it is turning into a more single player based game. I honestly only see a few instances where players would even have the opportunity to interact.

1. The random events they mentioned, such as Borg invasions, but who has time to get to know one another in such a scenario.

2. Um, er... yeah. Nothing else from what was listed.

Space able to be gone through alone. Away missions able to be done solo. Crew members able too be gained solo.

Really, I do not see any way that actually grouping up or even talking to others is beneficial in the game based on the presented mechanics.

My hope is that closed Beta Players will be able to focus on this and either prove me wrong once NDA is lifted or convince the powers that be that something HAS to be done.

When it comes to an MMO, it really doesnt matter HOW player interdependency is done if there IS NO player interdependency. This should be your primary concern at this point. While I do enjoy gamees that offer independence, I prefer the grouping experience being far more valuable.

Exactly. Let's not swing the pendulum too far the other way and make the game 100 percent soloable. If there is actual benefit to doing things in a group then they will happen. I notice both STO and TOR give you an NPC entourage that guards you. I hope this doesn't mean they are the only members of Starfleet that I'll run into.

They obviously don't have the time or resources to create a viable officer positions so this is what we are getting, which may be fun in its own way

i don't care if it's mmorpg or multi player single both have been fun. works well in guild wars i think it can work for STO.

Originally posted by DanaDark

Anyway, to the matter at hand. Player crews not in the game. Yeup. It's sad. I want them in, but I can understand the decision not to (BECAUSE I have a creative AND realistic mind). Are there ways too put them in and have it fun the whole time? I am sure there probably is, but the developement would mean making a whole new MMO 3 times over at least basically.

And as a side challange to those that say it's BS that it cannot be done, prove it. Design and present a full fledged MMO system that will keep someone in med bay for a majority of their play time. Otherwise, stop calling it BS and never proving it. Money -> Mouth.

On this issue..... check out StarQuest. That game has lots of problems.... mostly related to the fact that it's done on a shoe-string budget by 7 people..IN THIER SPARE TIME. (There's some additional problems with the community). Look at what that game can achieve in terms of play experience for the different types of officers aboard a starship with EXTREMELY LIMITED RESOURCES.  If those guys can deliver that...it's not hard to extrapolate what a company with a real budget,  full proffesional staff and some real MMO experience can do.

Also you present a bit of a false arguement. Just because a character is say, the Chief Medical Officer, doesn't mean that thier entire game experience needs to be inside Med-Bay.  Look at what a character like McCoy does in the series and see all the different things that he does.

The real question is..... Are there enough different things to do aboard a starship, in space exploration, and in the exploration of planets....to support a variety of different roles as officers aboard a starship. I'd say the answer is patently YES.... to no less degree anyways then a variety of different roles are supported in an adventuring party in a standard fantasy genre.

To me the arguement of saying that "No one will play the Ship's Doctor because there isn't enough fun things to do is akin to saying....No one will play a Cleric in an adventuring party because all they do is stand around inside a temple all day and pray."

That's a non-arguement, because it is patently untrue. Other MMO's.....whether Fantasy or Sci-Fi or any other genre you care to mention DON'T have a problem addressing the dichotemy between SOLO and TEAM Based Content.... and STO doesn't need to either..... it's a bit of a false dilemma.

There is PLENTY of room in a Trek based universe for SOLO-able content..... whether that is research or crafting or planetary/starbase based missions...... or even missions for small ships that are DESIGNED for solo flight.

There is also PLENTY of room in a Trek based universe for TEAM content that requires different people to perform different functions to make a Capital Ship work (and tackle more difficult challanges)....or make an AWAY PARTY of different NPC's work.

It was just an easy/cheap decision for Cryptic to conceptualize SHIP = Mount,  Different Classes = Different Ships (i.e. "healer ship", "DPS ship", "tank ship").  Rather then figuring out how to make different positions to control different aspects on the SAME ship. There is no rocket science needed for that .... FPS Games (such as Battle-Field 1942) have been doing Multi-Player controled vehicles for years. It just required a different mind-set then the one Cryptic was USED to working in (Fantasy/Super Hero based MMO's) and they didn't  go for it.