Originally posted by maskedweasel

The only part of your post I didn't agree with is highlighted.

 

The only reason I don't agree with it is simply... there are not great sandboxes to play.  All the ones you named, are not great... because sandboxes are not easy to make.   Currently our best bets on sandbox games have come from small developers.  This is so strange how MMOs have such a niche for sandbox games but games like the Elder Scroll Series which is a pretty wide RPG with a wide aray of sandbox elements does so well.

 Really I just named the ones that stood out, I'm not even sure if there is anything else worth listing. And to be honest, I do believe most people are not wanting sandbox mmos. They can be impossible to pull off correctly. All the exploiting, hacking etc. Most of that is very very easy to do in a sandbox.  So most of the developers moved away from sandbox and went for something easier to deal with, theme parks. Look at the f2p games, would say 90% of them are theme park related. 

Now I acknowledge some people do want sandbox MMOs, but all the problems listed above pretty much make it impossible when dealing with a company thats all about the money.

To me it shows a market out there, but the developers just don't put the effort into it.  SWG was great for what it was.. but it was never working correctly from the moment it launced.. it always had tons of bugs... it was always imbalanced.  

Again this is a typical sandbox problem, skill systems will always give players exploitable options. SoE had no plans to fix those bugs, and the fact that many of those bugs are still happening in SWG is proof that they don't want to, or it's impossible to fix without having to fix the other 20 bugs that come a long with it.

I kind of now understand why ToR trolls may be getting so angry... There are only 2 companies that I can think of that would put out a well polished game of such insane detail, BioWare is definitely one of the better developers out there.  Unfortunately the sanbox isn't BioWares bag.....   the only other one that comes to mind won't be putting out a star wars MMO at all... but they have announced an MMO.... I guess thats something for them.

I can't relate with them, and I refuse to tell them everything is ok, they don't have the right to be angry. The minute they purchased SWG they stepped into SoEs world. They have the right to change anything they want, no matter how shitty it is. Me a long time Vet of SWG, can not see the maturity in moaning over a game that changed years ago.  SWG is still around, it's different but they can still play it. If they choose not to play, then they need to get a grip on reality and find a new hobby or snap out of this crybaby vindictive attitude of theirs.  I seriously hope they find a game for them, but this one is not for them. No matter how much crying they do, it WILL never be a sandbox MMO. Sandbox does not pull in the money to support a game of this scale. Sandbox is niche now, they need to get use to that.

Originally posted by MarlonB

Now ... let's get Bethesda to build a decent Fallout mmo!

 

Seriously if this was to happen it would be awesome. But the problems that came with it would completely destroy it if it was full on sandbox. There is just to much work to put into a sandbox, it's not worth half the problems it gives in return.

Edit: Wanted to add that supposably a Fallout MMO is in the works or being talked about. If anybody can pull off a great sandbox MMO it would be bethesda. But do you think bethesda wants to aim for the niche community? Guess we will see.

Originally posted by greed0104

Originally posted by MarlonB

Now ... let's get Bethesda to build a decent Fallout mmo!

 

 

Seriously if this was to happen it would be awesome. But the problems that came with it would completely destroy it if it was full on sandbox. There is just to much work to put into a sandbox, it's not worth half the problems it gives in return.

Edit: Wanted to add that supposably a Fallout MMO is in the works or being talked about. If anybody can pull off a great sandbox MMO it would be bethesda. But do you think bethesda wants to aim for the niche community? Guess we will see.

There is a team of Russian volunteers building an fallout mmo based on fallout 1 and 2 ... i have been playing it a bit but found it to be  to brutal/harsh for my taste. The graphics will scare the cr*p out of you the first time ( 12 years old?) but after playing it a while it doesn't bother you that much anymore. That shows again that the fun factor is more important then the graphics :)

I think the biggest problem in Sandbox is the pvp .... the complaints and whines are almost always about balance ... something almost noone cares about in PVE. I for one don't care if one "template" is stronger then the other ... i will still play the character i'm most fond of ... next to that, pvp should be balanced for groups, not solo players. But that's my opinion. Heck, in SWG i was Creature Handler/Politician/Businessman ... i think the worst template ever, but i've had fun with this character for a long long time ... in a galaxy far away.

Exploits and bugs ... they can be overcome. It simply requires a better QA and test-team. It also requires an attitude of wanting to deliver a solid game, instead of just releasing as fast as possible. You can also implement an incentive base system where players get rewarded for reporting exploits.

But as you mentioned, the biggest and most important issue is money. It's so much easier to build and maintain a non-sandbox game ... which in itself is weird, as it requires much more content to be added ... regularly :)

Originally posted by greed0104

Edit: Wanted to add that supposably a Fallout MMO is in the works or being talked about. If anybody can pull off a great sandbox MMO it would be bethesda. But do you think bethesda wants to aim for the niche community? Guess we will see.

If you are talking about the "Unnanounced Bethesda MMO" it may actually be an Elder Scrolls MMO, which would be pretty sweet!

www.wired.com/gamelife/2009/08/elder-scrolls-mmo/

(unless, of course, there is some recent news about Fallout MMO that I have not heard)

Sorry I'm

This thread has no immersion thanks to someone who posts in every single TOR post about the "facts" in the game, according to his opinions!

Good times.

But yeah, if the game has a great story and draws you in, it will be huge for many people. Sure it may not get the sandbox crowd, or the omg I wanna be the super elite hardest raids in any game so I can flex my epeen crowd, but for what they are aiming for, I think it will do just fine.

Also, a Dungeon n Dragons MMO that isn't ruined by turbine, and had a story, could do great too.

Originally posted by KupoKupopo

Originally posted by greed0104

Edit: Wanted to add that supposably a Fallout MMO is in the works or being talked about. If anybody can pull off a great sandbox MMO it would be bethesda. But do you think bethesda wants to aim for the niche community? Guess we will see.

 

If you are talking about the "Unnanounced Bethesda MMO" it may actually be an Elder Scrolls MMO, which would be pretty sweet!

www.wired.com/gamelife/2009/08/elder-scrolls-mmo/

(unless, of course, there is some recent news about Fallout MMO that I have not heard)

Sorry I'm

I don't think so, think its code name was ProjectV13(Vault 13?)

And I'll definatlly play a ES MMO, only if I can massacre entire villages and sets them on fire!

I thought Black Isle still owned the rights to a Fallout MMO rather than Bethesda?

In response to the SWG guys, I agree to a certain  extent that I don't believe ToR will be greatest of the genre, I prefer immersive games, I want to explore and adventure and make own way through a world rather than being guided through constructed scenes and aspects. I'm sure this game will be fun and entertaining but it will not be groundbreaking, I just don't see how a game like this can survive longer than it's end game content, surely at some point the story will come to a close before new content is aviable, after that I don't see what else there will be to do in the game.

I am not trolling, I am not a SWG fan, I am a Star Wars fan and I would for ToR to give you a great story but also an expansive Star Wars universe to do what you will with, I am EQ vet and just yearning for the old days of "bigger is better" I suppose.

Originally posted by shakermaker0

I thought Black Isle still owned the rights to a Fallout MMO rather than Bethesda?

 

In response to the SWG guys, I agree to a certain  extent that I don't believe ToR will be greatest of the genre, I prefer immersive games, I want to explore and adventure and make own way through a world rather than being guided through constructed scenes and aspects. I'm sure this game will be fun and entertaining but it will not be groundbreaking, I just don't see how a game like this can survive longer than it's end game content, surely at some point the story will come to a close before new content is aviable, after that I don't see what else there will be to do in the game.

 

I am not trolling, I am not a SWG fan, I am a Star Wars fan and I would for ToR to give you a great story but also an expansive Star Wars universe to do what you will with, I am EQ vet and just yearning for the old days of "bigger is better" I suppose.

Wasn't it Interplay that kept the rights to a Fallout MMO?

I think a mix of both is possible. Looking back at SWG, it was a great concept for a sandbox and it had themeparks. What they should have done is keep it sandbox-y, but add more content, theme-parks and large and epic questlines. Now that was a game that with a few tweaks and changes could have catered for a large market. They tried it with the nge, but instead of adding new stuff, they destroyed their foundation which was actually the big strength of the game.

Meh ... i wish i had 200 million spare to waste on my ideas ...

Originally posted by MarlonB

Originally posted by greed0104

Originally posted by MarlonB

Now ... let's get Bethesda to build a decent Fallout mmo!

 

 

Seriously if this was to happen it would be awesome. But the problems that came with it would completely destroy it if it was full on sandbox. There is just to much work to put into a sandbox, it's not worth half the problems it gives in return.

Edit: Wanted to add that supposably a Fallout MMO is in the works or being talked about. If anybody can pull off a great sandbox MMO it would be bethesda. But do you think bethesda wants to aim for the niche community? Guess we will see.

 

There is a team of Russian volunteers building an fallout mmo based on fallout 1 and 2 ... i have been playing it a bit but found it to be  to brutal/harsh for my taste. The graphics will scare the cr*p out of you the first time ( 12 years old?) but after playing it a while it doesn't bother you that much anymore. That shows again that the fun factor is more important then the graphics :)

I think the biggest problem in Sandbox is the pvp .... the complaints and whines are almost always about balance ... something almost noone cares about in PVE. I for one don't care if one "template" is stronger then the other ... i will still play the character i'm most fond of ... next to that, pvp should be balanced for groups, not solo players. But that's my opinion. Heck, in SWG i was Creature Handler/Politician/Businessman ... i think the worst template ever, but i've had fun with this character for a long long time ... in a galaxy far away.

Exploits and bugs ... they can be overcome. It simply requires a better QA and test-team. It also requires an attitude of wanting to deliver a solid game, instead of just releasing as fast as possible. You can also implement an incentive base system where players get rewarded for reporting exploits.

 

But as you mentioned, the biggest and most important issue is money. It's so much easier to build and maintain a non-sandbox game ... which in itself is weird, as it requires much more content to be added ... regularly :)

 

I don't think PvP needs to be tough or unbalanced.  A sandbox RPG needs to have a stronger combat system to work correctly in an MMO.. such as a FPS system, or variable 3rd person system, or even a Mount & Blade system where they rely less on tons of different skills and more on just balancing everything to the simplest effects.  The only way current MMOs find balance is with the class system.   Again, the sandbox has never been done correctly in a fantasy or sci - fi genre (I'm leaving EvE out of this because frankly, ships just don't fly with me without on-the-ground avatars, it doesn't mean its not sanboxy or even a good game, but not what i'm talking about now) correctly.  BioWare may boost the quality of MMOs as a whole and bring in some innovation to the class genre, but when it comes to sandbox games....  noone stops to think about how to make it better and how to make it work.. they just throw all the pieces together and hope people don't notice its faults.

I know I'm off topic, so sorry to the OP. But you guys asking about the Fallout MMO. www.wired.com/gamelife/2009/04/bethesda-pursue/

Originally posted by greed0104

I know I'm off topic, so sorry to the OP. But you guys asking about the Fallout MMO. www.wired.com/gamelife/2009/04/bethesda-pursue/

...aww I WANTED an elder scrolls MMO.......  OH well.. Fallout is good too.

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by greed0104

I know I'm off topic, so sorry to the OP. But you guys asking about the Fallout MMO. www.wired.com/gamelife/2009/04/bethesda-pursue/

...aww I WANTED an elder scrolls MMO.......  OH well.. Fallout is good too.

tbh, I think Bethesda could do both, but they would have to take out so much. My favorite aspect of both Fallout 3 and Morrowind/Oblivion, was being able to almost wipe out entire towns/cities. So choice that actaull effected the world. But that is a single player feature, as  far as I know. With freedom of that scale the MMO wouldn't last long. To many people like me just wanna raise hell in a open world like this.

Originally posted by Draccan

...

What happened to making your own story?

Developers found out that an overwhelming majority of players do not prefer being exposed to "stories" made my other, random players. 

The thing with stories is, there's an earth-shattering difference between a good one and a bad one. Good storytelling can give you hope or a new perspective on life - or break your heart or even get you into war. Whereas bad storytelling is blandness itself.

Really, a good story is among the most profound of human creations. Cherish it. :)