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Star Wars: The Old Republic

Star Wars: The Old Republic 

General Discussion  » Immersion

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38 posts found
  User Deleted
9/08/09 11:49:54 PM#21
Originally posted by stillkillin


 

no you just don't get it

sandbox mmos are the best way to go if you want immerision look at how many people said pre-cu swg was one of the greatest mmos made and all $OE had to do is fix what was broken. rather $OE got bored and decided to turn SWG into the NGE and ruin the game for 250k people. and now the NGE only has maybe 1k if not less playing.

Immersion is a matter of opinion. I didn't find SWG immersive, at all. Walking through player cities and running into a house named "LOL DUKES HOUSE OF PAIN" kills immersion. Some people immerse themselves in a good written story (such as a book, story game or even a movie) while some are able to imagine unicorns and lolipops. I guess I just have no imagination.

I'm afraid most people just don't care about sandbox anymore. Most of them are to time consuming. So they make games like ToR for those who feel the need to relax and play something that is some what user friendly. You can keep coming back and telling people they are wrong, but all you are doing is making an ass of yourself. You can't argue opinion with opinion, not here.

me and many others do not want to see tor fail and that is why we are asking that bioware drop the game as is and rework it into a sandbox title that everyone can enjoy and love.

So what you are asking is for BioWare to drop all production because you and 10 of your friends are upset? All that money down the drain so they can lose over a million potential subscribers for a hand full of people that complain on a daily bases about a virtual world? And stop speaking for everybody, not everybody would enjoy and love it, just a small few. Maybe 10-20?

after all 4 years later i still see tons of people talking about how great pre-cu swg was. and now all i hear is people sick of level class based mmos get a clue bioware and give the players what they want.

I will help you a bit. Here are some games to give a shot. Eve, Second Life, Darkfall, Mortal Online. Pick one give it a shot, should probably stick with it. Because there is no way in hell BioWare is going to give you a SWG 2. And the extremely funny thing is, you are on MMORPG.com yelling about it, why don't you go to swtor.com and tell them what you think. Or is the lions den that scary?


Edited for crappy spelling.

  User Deleted
9/08/09 11:59:30 PM#22

Originally Posted by Palebane

Would you pay $15/ month to play The Witcher?

 

Yeah, if I could

  1. Play with my friends.
  2. Get updates and DLC
  3. Have end game activities such as raiding, pvp, perhaps something new?

Damn I guess ToR has all of the above :O

  MarlonB

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/11/06
Posts: 508

 
OP  9/09/09 12:38:09 AM#23
Originally posted by Draccan

Too bad so many people need to be held by the hand and led around a premade linear path (with pretty much a yes or no option to everything - which is still linear)...

Why is it that STORY is to be told what to do, think and feel?

What happened to making your own story?

 

Both can work m8 ... as actually, the other game i really loved and had a great bond with my character was SWG.

Linear can be just as good as sandbox, it's a matter of taste and often also the mood you are in :)

Sometimes i want to make my story, other times is just want to experience a story.

 

But in both cases, the game needs a specific set of basics/features to be able to easily immerse ... at least help it along. I wish i could describe those, but i can't :)

 

Would i pay  15Euro a month for a singleplayer ? .... probably not, but that's not the discussion here. I just used the witcher as an example of a game where immersion was made easy. Something most MMO's fail at imo.

I crave for an immersive and fun game. Lately, whenever i try a new mmo, i only feel like i'm grinding to max level again ... can't stand it anymore ... like the gaming factor is no longer important, they turned MMO's into a drug ... keep you addicted, but offer no real fun.

 

SWTOR i had hoped to be sandbox and linear at the same time. Have some HUGE and optional epic questlines, but also have all the freedom SWG had. But most important .... i want it to be ... FUN.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Repopulation - Scfi Fi Sandbox.

  maskedweasel

Tipster

Joined: 9/24/07
Posts: 7264

"Kids, try imagining how far the universe extends! Keep thinking about it until you go insane."

9/09/09 12:51:45 AM#24
Originally posted by greed0104
Originally posted by stillkillin


 

 

I'm afraid most people just don't care about sandbox anymore. Most of them are to time consuming. So they make games like ToR for those who feel the need to relax and play something that is some what user friendly. You can keep coming back and telling people they are wrong, but all you are doing is making an ass of yourself. You can't argue opinion with opinion, not here.

 


Edited for crappy spelling.

The only part of your post I didn't agree with is highlighted.

 

The only reason I don't agree with it is simply... there are not great sandboxes to play.  All the ones you named, are not great... because sandboxes are not easy to make.   Currently our best bets on sandbox games have come from small developers.  This is so strange how MMOs have such a niche for sandbox games but games like the Elder Scroll Series which is a pretty wide RPG with a wide aray of sandbox elements does so well.

 

To me it shows a market out there, but the developers just don't put the effort into it.  SWG was great for what it was.. but it was never working correctly from the moment it launced.. it always had tons of bugs... it was always imbalanced.  

 

I kind of now understand why ToR trolls may be getting so angry... There are only 2 companies that I can think of that would put out a well polished game of such insane detail, BioWare is definitely one of the better developers out there.  Unfortunately the sanbox isn't BioWares bag.....   the only other one that comes to mind won't be putting out a star wars MMO at all... but they have announced an MMO.... I guess thats something for them.

"Loan me a Dragon I wanna see space"


  MarlonB

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/11/06
Posts: 508

 
OP  9/09/09 1:07:23 AM#25
Originally posted by maskedweasel

 

The only reason I don't agree with it is simply... there are not great sandboxes to play.  All the ones you named, are not great... because sandboxes are not easy to make.   Currently our best bets on sandbox games have come from small developers.  This is so strange how MMOs have such a niche for sandbox games but games like the Elder Scroll Series which is a pretty wide RPG with a wide aray of sandbox elements does so well.

 

There are a few sandboxes out there ... I tried them and agree ... they are not great. I gave Fallen Earth a shot after loving Fallout, but that was probably my biggest dissapointment this year :)

Now ... let's get Bethesda to build a decent Fallout mmo!

 

 

Blizzard have prooved themselves to be able to make a game that sells well .... but have you ever felt connected to your character?? Or immersed into the story ? ..... or just addicted to higher levels ... better gear?

I was suckered into that game and leveled 2 chars to max ... and i fully admit ... it was an addiction, but it was never half as fun as the Witcher or SWG where i was my character  and not just some pixels on the screen.

The Repopulation - Scfi Fi Sandbox.

  User Deleted
9/09/09 1:11:10 AM#26
Originally posted by maskedweasel

The only part of your post I didn't agree with is highlighted.

 

The only reason I don't agree with it is simply... there are not great sandboxes to play.  All the ones you named, are not great... because sandboxes are not easy to make.   Currently our best bets on sandbox games have come from small developers.  This is so strange how MMOs have such a niche for sandbox games but games like the Elder Scroll Series which is a pretty wide RPG with a wide aray of sandbox elements does so well.

 Really I just named the ones that stood out, I'm not even sure if there is anything else worth listing. And to be honest, I do believe most people are not wanting sandbox mmos. They can be impossible to pull off correctly. All the exploiting, hacking etc. Most of that is very very easy to do in a sandbox.  So most of the developers moved away from sandbox and went for something easier to deal with, theme parks. Look at the f2p games, would say 90% of them are theme park related. 

Now I acknowledge some people do want sandbox MMOs, but all the problems listed above pretty much make it impossible when dealing with a company thats all about the money.

To me it shows a market out there, but the developers just don't put the effort into it.  SWG was great for what it was.. but it was never working correctly from the moment it launced.. it always had tons of bugs... it was always imbalanced.  

Again this is a typical sandbox problem, skill systems will always give players exploitable options. SoE had no plans to fix those bugs, and the fact that many of those bugs are still happening in SWG is proof that they don't want to, or it's impossible to fix without having to fix the other 20 bugs that come a long with it.

I kind of now understand why ToR trolls may be getting so angry... There are only 2 companies that I can think of that would put out a well polished game of such insane detail, BioWare is definitely one of the better developers out there.  Unfortunately the sanbox isn't BioWares bag.....   the only other one that comes to mind won't be putting out a star wars MMO at all... but they have announced an MMO.... I guess thats something for them.

I can't relate with them, and I refuse to tell them everything is ok, they don't have the right to be angry. The minute they purchased SWG they stepped into SoEs world. They have the right to change anything they want, no matter how shitty it is. Me a long time Vet of SWG, can not see the maturity in moaning over a game that changed years ago.  SWG is still around, it's different but they can still play it. If they choose not to play, then they need to get a grip on reality and find a new hobby or snap out of this crybaby vindictive attitude of theirs.  I seriously hope they find a game for them, but this one is not for them. No matter how much crying they do, it WILL never be a sandbox MMO. Sandbox does not pull in the money to support a game of this scale. Sandbox is niche now, they need to get use to that.

 

  User Deleted
9/09/09 1:13:14 AM#27
Originally posted by MarlonB

Now ... let's get Bethesda to build a decent Fallout mmo!

 

 

Seriously if this was to happen it would be awesome. But the problems that came with it would completely destroy it if it was full on sandbox. There is just to much work to put into a sandbox, it's not worth half the problems it gives in return.

Edit: Wanted to add that supposably a Fallout MMO is in the works or being talked about. If anybody can pull off a great sandbox MMO it would be bethesda. But do you think bethesda wants to aim for the niche community? Guess we will see.

  MarlonB

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/11/06
Posts: 508

 
OP  9/09/09 1:49:13 AM#28
Originally posted by greed0104
Originally posted by MarlonB

Now ... let's get Bethesda to build a decent Fallout mmo!

 

 

Seriously if this was to happen it would be awesome. But the problems that came with it would completely destroy it if it was full on sandbox. There is just to much work to put into a sandbox, it's not worth half the problems it gives in return.

Edit: Wanted to add that supposably a Fallout MMO is in the works or being talked about. If anybody can pull off a great sandbox MMO it would be bethesda. But do you think bethesda wants to aim for the niche community? Guess we will see.

 

There is a team of Russian volunteers building an fallout mmo based on fallout 1 and 2 ... i have been playing it a bit but found it to be  to brutal/harsh for my taste. The graphics will scare the cr*p out of you the first time ( 12 years old?) but after playing it a while it doesn't bother you that much anymore. That shows again that the fun factor is more important then the graphics :)

I think the biggest problem in Sandbox is the pvp .... the complaints and whines are almost always about balance ... something almost noone cares about in PVE. I for one don't care if one "template" is stronger then the other ... i will still play the character i'm most fond of ... next to that, pvp should be balanced for groups, not solo players. But that's my opinion. Heck, in SWG i was Creature Handler/Politician/Businessman ... i think the worst template ever, but i've had fun with this character for a long long time ... in a galaxy far away.

Exploits and bugs ... they can be overcome. It simply requires a better QA and test-team. It also requires an attitude of wanting to deliver a solid game, instead of just releasing as fast as possible. You can also implement an incentive base system where players get rewarded for reporting exploits.

 

But as you mentioned, the biggest and most important issue is money. It's so much easier to build and maintain a non-sandbox game ... which in itself is weird, as it requires much more content to be added ... regularly :)

 

The Repopulation - Scfi Fi Sandbox.

  KupoKupopo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/08/09
Posts: 211

9/09/09 1:52:04 AM#29
Originally posted by greed0104

Edit: Wanted to add that supposably a Fallout MMO is in the works or being talked about. If anybody can pull off a great sandbox MMO it would be bethesda. But do you think bethesda wants to aim for the niche community? Guess we will see.

 

If you are talking about the "Unnanounced Bethesda MMO" it may actually be an Elder Scrolls MMO, which would be pretty sweet!

www.wired.com/gamelife/2009/08/elder-scrolls-mmo/

(unless, of course, there is some recent news about Fallout MMO that I have not heard)

Sorry I'm

  Swanea

Novice Member

Joined: 4/25/08
Posts: 2380

9/09/09 1:57:18 AM#30

This thread has no immersion thanks to someone who posts in every single TOR post about the "facts" in the game, according to his opinions!

 

Good times.

 

But yeah, if the game has a great story and draws you in, it will be huge for many people. Sure it may not get the sandbox crowd, or the omg I wanna be the super elite hardest raids in any game so I can flex my epeen crowd, but for what they are aiming for, I think it will do just fine.

 

Also, a Dungeon n Dragons MMO that isn't ruined by turbine, and had a story, could do great too.

  User Deleted
9/09/09 2:12:52 AM#31
Originally posted by KupoKupopo
Originally posted by greed0104

Edit: Wanted to add that supposably a Fallout MMO is in the works or being talked about. If anybody can pull off a great sandbox MMO it would be bethesda. But do you think bethesda wants to aim for the niche community? Guess we will see.

 

If you are talking about the "Unnanounced Bethesda MMO" it may actually be an Elder Scrolls MMO, which would be pretty sweet!

www.wired.com/gamelife/2009/08/elder-scrolls-mmo/

(unless, of course, there is some recent news about Fallout MMO that I have not heard)

Sorry I'm

I don't think so, think its code name was ProjectV13(Vault 13?)

And I'll definatlly play a ES MMO, only if I can massacre entire villages and sets them on fire!

  shakermaker0

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/25/09
Posts: 198

9/09/09 6:52:57 AM#32

I thought Black Isle still owned the rights to a Fallout MMO rather than Bethesda?

 

In response to the SWG guys, I agree to a certain  extent that I don't believe ToR will be greatest of the genre, I prefer immersive games, I want to explore and adventure and make own way through a world rather than being guided through constructed scenes and aspects. I'm sure this game will be fun and entertaining but it will not be groundbreaking, I just don't see how a game like this can survive longer than it's end game content, surely at some point the story will come to a close before new content is aviable, after that I don't see what else there will be to do in the game.

 

I am not trolling, I am not a SWG fan, I am a Star Wars fan and I would for ToR to give you a great story but also an expansive Star Wars universe to do what you will with, I am EQ vet and just yearning for the old days of "bigger is better" I suppose.

  MarlonB

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/11/06
Posts: 508

 
OP  9/09/09 11:46:25 AM#33
Originally posted by shakermaker0

I thought Black Isle still owned the rights to a Fallout MMO rather than Bethesda?

 

In response to the SWG guys, I agree to a certain  extent that I don't believe ToR will be greatest of the genre, I prefer immersive games, I want to explore and adventure and make own way through a world rather than being guided through constructed scenes and aspects. I'm sure this game will be fun and entertaining but it will not be groundbreaking, I just don't see how a game like this can survive longer than it's end game content, surely at some point the story will come to a close before new content is aviable, after that I don't see what else there will be to do in the game.

 

I am not trolling, I am not a SWG fan, I am a Star Wars fan and I would for ToR to give you a great story but also an expansive Star Wars universe to do what you will with, I am EQ vet and just yearning for the old days of "bigger is better" I suppose.

 

Wasn't it Interplay that kept the rights to a Fallout MMO?

 

I think a mix of both is possible. Looking back at SWG, it was a great concept for a sandbox and it had themeparks. What they should have done is keep it sandbox-y, but add more content, theme-parks and large and epic questlines. Now that was a game that with a few tweaks and changes could have catered for a large market. They tried it with the nge, but instead of adding new stuff, they destroyed their foundation which was actually the big strength of the game.

 

Meh ... i wish i had 200 million spare to waste on my ideas ...

 

The Repopulation - Scfi Fi Sandbox.

  maskedweasel

Tipster

Joined: 9/24/07
Posts: 7264

"Kids, try imagining how far the universe extends! Keep thinking about it until you go insane."

9/09/09 12:27:27 PM#34
Originally posted by MarlonB
Originally posted by greed0104
Originally posted by MarlonB

Now ... let's get Bethesda to build a decent Fallout mmo!

 

 

Seriously if this was to happen it would be awesome. But the problems that came with it would completely destroy it if it was full on sandbox. There is just to much work to put into a sandbox, it's not worth half the problems it gives in return.

Edit: Wanted to add that supposably a Fallout MMO is in the works or being talked about. If anybody can pull off a great sandbox MMO it would be bethesda. But do you think bethesda wants to aim for the niche community? Guess we will see.

 

There is a team of Russian volunteers building an fallout mmo based on fallout 1 and 2 ... i have been playing it a bit but found it to be  to brutal/harsh for my taste. The graphics will scare the cr*p out of you the first time ( 12 years old?) but after playing it a while it doesn't bother you that much anymore. That shows again that the fun factor is more important then the graphics :)

I think the biggest problem in Sandbox is the pvp .... the complaints and whines are almost always about balance ... something almost noone cares about in PVE. I for one don't care if one "template" is stronger then the other ... i will still play the character i'm most fond of ... next to that, pvp should be balanced for groups, not solo players. But that's my opinion. Heck, in SWG i was Creature Handler/Politician/Businessman ... i think the worst template ever, but i've had fun with this character for a long long time ... in a galaxy far away.

Exploits and bugs ... they can be overcome. It simply requires a better QA and test-team. It also requires an attitude of wanting to deliver a solid game, instead of just releasing as fast as possible. You can also implement an incentive base system where players get rewarded for reporting exploits.

 

But as you mentioned, the biggest and most important issue is money. It's so much easier to build and maintain a non-sandbox game ... which in itself is weird, as it requires much more content to be added ... regularly :)

 

 

I don't think PvP needs to be tough or unbalanced.  A sandbox RPG needs to have a stronger combat system to work correctly in an MMO.. such as a FPS system, or variable 3rd person system, or even a Mount & Blade system where they rely less on tons of different skills and more on just balancing everything to the simplest effects.  The only way current MMOs find balance is with the class system.   Again, the sandbox has never been done correctly in a fantasy or sci - fi genre (I'm leaving EvE out of this because frankly, ships just don't fly with me without on-the-ground avatars, it doesn't mean its not sanboxy or even a good game, but not what i'm talking about now) correctly.  BioWare may boost the quality of MMOs as a whole and bring in some innovation to the class genre, but when it comes to sandbox games....  noone stops to think about how to make it better and how to make it work.. they just throw all the pieces together and hope people don't notice its faults.

"Loan me a Dragon I wanna see space"


  User Deleted
9/09/09 2:21:33 PM#35

I know I'm off topic, so sorry to the OP. But you guys asking about the Fallout MMO. www.wired.com/gamelife/2009/04/bethesda-pursue/

  maskedweasel

Tipster

Joined: 9/24/07
Posts: 7264

"Kids, try imagining how far the universe extends! Keep thinking about it until you go insane."

9/09/09 5:02:30 PM#36
Originally posted by greed0104

I know I'm off topic, so sorry to the OP. But you guys asking about the Fallout MMO. www.wired.com/gamelife/2009/04/bethesda-pursue/

...aww I WANTED an elder scrolls MMO.......  OH well.. Fallout is good too.

"Loan me a Dragon I wanna see space"


  User Deleted
9/09/09 5:39:13 PM#37
Originally posted by maskedweasel
Originally posted by greed0104

I know I'm off topic, so sorry to the OP. But you guys asking about the Fallout MMO. www.wired.com/gamelife/2009/04/bethesda-pursue/

...aww I WANTED an elder scrolls MMO.......  OH well.. Fallout is good too.

 

tbh, I think Bethesda could do both, but they would have to take out so much. My favorite aspect of both Fallout 3 and Morrowind/Oblivion, was being able to almost wipe out entire towns/cities. So choice that actaull effected the world. But that is a single player feature, as  far as I know. With freedom of that scale the MMO wouldn't last long. To many people like me just wanna raise hell in a open world like this.

  solarine

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/25/06
Posts: 1204

9/10/09 5:59:15 AM#38
Originally posted by Draccan

...

What happened to making your own story?


 

Developers found out that an overwhelming majority of players do not prefer being exposed to "stories" made my other, random players. 

The thing with stories is, there's an earth-shattering difference between a good one and a bad one. Good storytelling can give you hope or a new perspective on life - or break your heart or even get you into war. Whereas bad storytelling is blandness itself.

Really, a good story is among the most profound of human creations. Cherish it. :)

 

 

 

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