If you want to treasure your rewards, know relief upon making it safely to a town or village, and feel the hair on the back of your neck prickle when you pass through a dark forest or traverse a dangerous dungeon, then there MUST be a death penalty with some "sting" to it.

Otherwise, no rewards are valued much, making it to a town or village feels no different than being in the dark forest or dank dungeon, and the overall gaming experience is bland.

Some will say, "there is no fun in dying and being penalized".  I counter this by saying there is no fun in enduring lame, lifeless gameplay.  I'd rather spend 97% of my time feeling exicted (and the other 3% feeling frustrated), than all 100% feeling bored out of my mind.

For an MMO to feel "alive", there must be consequences for careless gameplay, and even the occasional consequence for excellent gameplay (who can tell when a wandering giant or griffin comes along and smacks you down).

While "polish" has its merits (i.e. WOW), no game will be loved without "immersion," and immersion comes from feeling.

I get what you are saying. But I have to admit, that even a 5 min. corpse run is enough of an inconvenience for me to play more carefully.

I remember the old days in AC, where you find a very nice item, and suddenly feel the need to rush to town so that you can get 'death items' to cover it incase u die.

And dying, and trying to get back to that corpse, against all odds, to reclaim that item. THAT was gameplay.

Now days, death is just a 'quick and easy trip back to town' and theres no setback, other than having to run back to kill again.

Agree with OP 100%

I agree that there does need to be a penalty. Just not too much. If it is too much you will always not want to do this or that just because you just might die and have to deal with it. If you can balance that then you have a very good basis for any game.

A game with a harsh death penalty will have to launch very polished, with near flawless crash-free client, and servers that run almost completely lag free... or the death penalty will not last more than two weeks before being taken out.  I played Vanguard when it launched and the death penalty there was not really that bad, but it was very annoy to lose experience to a bug or crash. 

I still remember the first time heading out to Endor with my lightsaber, knowing from that point on.. a death will be three hours or more of additional grinding.  Yeah it was pretty exciting at times.. 

it's fun finding a pile of items just laying there off of some noob that got killed.  I always wanted to try a game with perma death to see how that would work out.

Originally posted by pencilrick

If you want to treasure your rewards, know relief upon making it safely to a town or village, and feel the hair on the back of your neck prickle when you pass through a dark forest or traverse a dangerous dungeon, then there MUST be a death penalty with some "sting" to it.

Otherwise, no rewards are valued much, making it to a town or village feels no different than being in the dark forest or dank dungeon, and the overall gaming experience is bland.

Some will say, "there is no fun in dying and being penalized".  I counter this by saying there is no fun in enduring lame, lifeless gameplay.  I'd rather spend 97% of my time feeling exicted (and the other 3% feeling frustrated), than all 100% feeling bored out of my mind.

For an MMO to feel "alive", there must be consequences for careless gameplay, and even the occasional consequence for excellent gameplay (who can tell when a wandering giant or griffin comes along and smacks you down).

While "polish" has its merits (i.e. WOW), no game will be loved without "immersion," and immersion comes from feeling.

Says you. I don't need harsh penalty to be excited or have fun. NO downing the boss and wasting 20 min is harsh enough. I have a life. Frustration is not for games, but for real life.

Sure you like frustration. Thank god that MOST players & developers agree with me.

Originally posted by ebonfire

A game with a harsh death penalty will have to launch very polished, with near flawless crash-free client, and servers that run almost completely lag free... or the death penalty will not last more than two weeks before being taken out.  I played Vanguard when it launched and the death penalty there was not really that bad, but it was very annoy to lose experience to a bug or crash. 

I still remember the first time heading out to Endor with my lightsaber, knowing from that point on.. a death will be three hours or more of additional grinding.  Yeah it was pretty exciting at times.. 

Nah .. no polish can save a harsh death penalty... that is if the developers want a sizeable player population at all.

i remember i was doing a group quests in lotro and we were dying to come back to the city fast,
i was hunter so i didnt need that much but i used it even in solo play. i didnt play other classes.

also i was fighting careless, i was never worry to die.

so i think something was missing.

i dont have much time to play now, so i wouldnt like to have a big penalty, but a little exp lost should be a must imo.

After watching some jerkoffs die just to get a free teleport back to down...im disgusted enough to agree

I agree with the OP.

The trick is to find a balance.

On one hand you don't want a game where 'death' = create new account.

On the other hand you do't want a game where 'death' can be so low penalty that people actually use it as a means of rapid transport back to the 'spawn point'.

 Penalties are okay, but overly harsh penalties are no good.  Item decay, ok.  Loss of non binded items at random. ok.  Running back to your corpse to pick up items. Ok.

One thing I hated was CoXs debt system.. ich.. it slowed progression to a crawl and really made me not even want to keep playing. Too harsh of costs just make me not even want to play due to the fact, part of the gameplay is dying.. and if I know I'm gunna die at some point, I already know if the penalty is too harsh then I just won't have a good time getting back to the "fun".

So stinging penalties, okay.. crippling penalties... no dice

Originally posted by pencilrick

If you want to treasure your rewards, know relief upon making it safely to a town or village, and feel the hair on the back of your neck prickle when you pass through a dark forest or traverse a dangerous dungeon, then there MUST be a death penalty with some "sting" to it.

Otherwise, no rewards are valued much, making it to a town or village feels no different than being in the dark forest or dank dungeon, and the overall gaming experience is bland.

Some will say, "there is no fun in dying and being penalized".  I counter this by saying there is no fun in enduring lame, lifeless gameplay.  I'd rather spend 97% of my time feeling exicted (and the other 3% feeling frustrated), than all 100% feeling bored out of my mind.

For an MMO to feel "alive", there must be consequences for careless gameplay, and even the occasional consequence for excellent gameplay (who can tell when a wandering giant or griffin comes along and smacks you down).

While "polish" has its merits (i.e. WOW), no game will be loved without "immersion," and immersion comes from feeling.

Immersion is a choice you make.
 

I think this isn't a matter of death being "soft" or "harsh."  It's a matter of making death interesting or boring.

If death is a part of interesting mechanics, like it was with pre-CU SWG, then it really isn't a matter of whether it is harsh or soft: people won't mind it, because they see a greater purpose in what the game is doing.

If death is boring (basically a mixture of respawn/perhaps with temp debuff/lockout timer), then it really doesn't matter if it's hard or soft: players will think it's too excessive.

All the excitement that some seem to think that comes with harsh death penalty has absolutely nothing to do with gameplay. Your excitement comes from the same source as where gamblers get their rush. In my opinion, harsh death penalty only gets people to wimp out on many things, in essence miss out on stuff. Furthermore, when people take no risks they learn very little.

Lets say its a level-based game. You only kill mobs that are lower than you because you don't want to take the risk of dying. Battle is easy, and no doubt you'll soon be bored out of your mind. Is this how you like it?

I wont deny that extra excitement would be welcome, but it is onlyl CPR for the game if the gameplay doesn't seem all that good. When you see past the gambler's rush, you don't want to see just "harsh death penalties" but actually great games with great gameplay.

Originally posted by pencilrick

If you want to treasure your rewards, know relief upon making it safely to a town or village, and feel the hair on the back of your neck prickle when you pass through a dark forest or traverse a dangerous dungeon, then there MUST be a death penalty with some "sting" to it.

What if we just want a game that's really damn fun?

Because if that's what we want, excessively painful death is unnecessary.

To be honest I'm not even convinced you need harsh death penalty to get that adrenaline-pumping feeling.  Some of my most adrenaline-charged gaming moments came in games like Natural Selection (combat).  Get a deep, action-heavy combat system where split-second decisions (the right decisions) matter, and you can have that same feeling in an MMORPG.  Death penalty wouldn't need to be excessive, but it obviously has to have at least the standard penalty.

Originally posted by pencilrick

If you want to treasure your rewards, know relief upon making it safely to a town or village, and feel the hair on the back of your neck prickle when you pass through a dark forest or traverse a dangerous dungeon, then there MUST be a death penalty with some "sting" to it.

Otherwise, no rewards are valued much, making it to a town or village feels no different than being in the dark forest or dank dungeon, and the overall gaming experience is bland.

Some will say, "there is no fun in dying and being penalized".  I counter this by saying there is no fun in enduring lame, lifeless gameplay.  I'd rather spend 97% of my time feeling exicted (and the other 3% feeling frustrated), than all 100% feeling bored out of my mind.

For an MMO to feel "alive", there must be consequences for careless gameplay, and even the occasional consequence for excellent gameplay (who can tell when a wandering giant or griffin comes along and smacks you down).

While "polish" has its merits (i.e. WOW), no game will be loved without "immersion," and immersion comes from feeling.

I care about my rewards when I know they are not going to be replaced in the next set of instances we tackle in 5 minutes. I care about my rewards when they are pain staking to acquire. I care about my rewards when I know that they are not going to replaced in a few hours when I level up. Rewards mean something when they mean something to the person. Rewards mean little when they only mean something to the character.

The game I cared the most about my character's stuff was EQ and not because I could loose it. Well you might (just maybe) for a got a short time in the game due to corpse rot typically from failed planar raids.

The game I cared the most about stuff in general was UO. I had a house with all the "rare" items on display I had stolen from people with my thief. Recall rune to your house and a key to your house sitting right next to each other? Yes, please! However, the only reason these items had significant meaning is because they were RARES. These items came from live events (and unique) and game glitches in general. Stuff meant something because it meant something to the world and the player.

There are many ways to make items and the players experience mean something besides harsh death penalties. Consequences don't need to be harsh. There just needs to be something worth fighting for. Most gameplay in modern EQ/WoW style MMOs just involves getting a new UO style viking sword or halberd, IE trash. It isn't overly fun. The encounters aren't very challenging (which is a tough thing to do while still requiring so many people in a raid and making the content accessible). And the item will be replaced in a month or two anyways. Giving the game meaning is what has been lost over time.

 I agree with OP myself I havent been afraid to die in an MMO since EQ,AO(before insurance pool) and somewhat DAOC. Hell in WAR (sorry sonic) it was the best way to travel most of the time....I used it for fast travel :)

The most immersive MMO I've ever played is UO. The death penalty was laughable even though you did lose all your stuff.

Originally posted by tyorke

i remember i was doing a group quests in lotro and we were dying to come back to the city fast,
i was hunter so i didnt need that much but i used it even in solo play. i didnt play other classes.

also i was fighting careless, i was never worry to die.

so i think something was missing.

 

i dont have much time to play now, so i wouldnt like to have a big penalty, but a little exp lost should be a must imo.

That is simple. Just make the cost in gold for dying higher than the travel cost. No one dies intentionally in WOW because of repair costs (the time you saved is not enough to grind back the gold) and not too hard so people will stop trying out new bosses, or new tactics.

Originally posted by Quirhid

All the excitement that some seem to think that comes with harsh death penalty has absolutely nothing to do with gameplay. Your excitement comes from the same source as where gamblers get their rush. In my opinion, harsh death penalty only gets people to wimp out on many things, in essence miss out on stuff. Furthermore, when people take no risks they learn very little.

 

Lets say its a level-based game. You only kill mobs that are lower than you because you don't want to take the risk of dying. Battle is easy, and no doubt you'll soon be bored out of your mind. Is this how you like it?

 

I wont deny that extra excitement would be welcome, but it is onlyl CPR for the game if the gameplay doesn't seem all that good. When you see past the gambler's rush, you don't want to see just "harsh death penalties" but actually great games with great gameplay.

I get what you're saying but having done naked corpse runs or bank armor corpse runs (anyone that's played EQ 1 know's what i'm talking about) have their entertainment.  Especially on a raid.  It does add immersion and also adds skill.  One poster above said they'd be more cautious with a harsh penelty... That's a bad thing?  Isn't the point to test gain skill and figure things  out?

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Originally posted by nariusseldon

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Originally posted by pencilrick

If you want to treasure your rewards, know relief upon making it safely to a town or village, and feel the hair on the back of your neck prickle when you pass through a dark forest or traverse a dangerous dungeon, then there MUST be a death penalty with some "sting" to it.
Otherwise, no rewards are valued much, making it to a town or village feels no different than being in the dark forest or dank dungeon, and the overall gaming experience is bland.
Some will say, "there is no fun in dying and being penalized".  I counter this by saying there is no fun in enduring lame, lifeless gameplay.  I'd rather spend 97% of my time feeling exicted (and the other 3% feeling frustrated), than all 100% feeling bored out of my mind.
For an MMO to feel "alive", there must be consequences for careless gameplay, and even the occasional consequence for excellent gameplay (who can tell when a wandering giant or griffin comes along and smacks you down).
While "polish" has its merits (i.e. WOW), no game will be loved without "immersion," and immersion comes from feeling.

---

 
Says you. I don't need harsh penalty to be excited or have fun. NO downing the boss and wasting 20 min is harsh enough. I have a life. Frustration is not for games, but for real life.
Sure you like frustration. Thank god that MOST players & developers agree with me.

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I do not think most developers agree with you, they simply develop the game they have been told to make. A game that in this day and age is the fruit of what ta sad MMO community has created. One day many players will wake up from the coma and realise that for a game to be fun it needs tougher options.

Originally posted by Palebane

I get what you are saying. But I have to admit, that even a 5 min. corpse run is enough of an inconvenience for me to play more carefully.

I agree with you and the OP. Death must have pain to make survival have meaning, and I hate corpse runs. I would like the option of ressing in place (for an xp cost).

I would also prefer to get rid of WoW's repair bills, since they discourage casual grouping for instances and raids. Let the rewards match the performance of the group.

If you want immersion... have permideath... anything less isn't immersive.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by tyorke

i remember i was doing a group quests in lotro and we were dying to come back to the city fast,
i was hunter so i didnt need that much but i used it even in solo play. i didnt play other classes.

also i was fighting careless, i was never worry to die.

so i think something was missing.

 

i dont have much time to play now, so i wouldnt like to have a big penalty, but a little exp lost should be a must imo.

 

That is simple. Just make the cost in gold for dying higher than the travel cost. No one dies intentionally in WOW because of repair costs (the time you saved is not enough to grind back the gold) and not too hard so people will stop trying out new bosses, or new tactics.

That will never happen. EQ showed us that. Infact people will try even harder because there will be more prestige in downing one of those bosses that not many others can. In the end there will be a proven tactic on the web and everyone will get a shot at it

I have no problems with games being fun and entertaining but they should never cater to people that want instant gratification. I have to agree with the OP, death has to sting for you to feel something within the game. Unfortunally the new generation of gamers agrees with you. They have voted with their wallets and they voted World of Warcraft