Ok first off I am the girl who used to go down to the local pizza place and take all the deliverery drivers tips by owning them at mortal kombat( still my all time favorite game).Sadly, those days are pretty much over, sure i can play it on xbox but it will never be the same as an actual arcade machine. Anyhow my take on pvp combat, well the biggest problem i see with alot of these games is the "luck factor" verses real player ability.  To me player killing should be about reflexes, game knowledge, memorization and better guessing of what your opponent will do next. The ability to control the fight and make your opponent do what you want them to do is what makes a good fighter. 

 What I dislike about  having to choose classes that all have different skills is that it takes alot of that away. As soon as you see an elf you know what their strengths and weaknesses are so it is easy to know what to do next verses figuring it out in the heat of battle. If all players in the game  have all abilities on one character and can make those characters appear however they want, then you would never be able to " predetermine" what they are capable of upon sight like fighting a real opponent.  If all players can train anything however they wish or everything to max, they can choose to work for it. so on one character you can have everything the game has to offer instead of having to create several characters to accomplish this.

 A game that allows you to do anything in actual battle in the game would make it possible to take combat to a higher level. You would never know what another player was going to do based on their appearance and you would never know what the other player was going to do in the middle of battle. Just because they maged you doesn't mean they are not going to range you then melee you. For players that fight for the challenge not for loot or fear this is  what player killing is all about. Players that care nothing if they die , and do not care much for pixel items, this is what makes the game fun.  The predictability in alot of games when fighting players makes you feel like you might as well be fighting an npc. If it were up to me I would take computerized luck out of it entirely and leave it up to real player skill, and have all players have the ability to do anything in battle that they choose to train all on one character.  That is what player killing to  me is all about.

As far as I heartedly agree with you, I still wonder how your gender is relevant to the discussion. A skilled player is a skilled player, even more so when physical abilities are not a factor like in some professions. If you were a soldier... ok, I guess I don't need to go there, you got my point. Back on topic, nowadays companies want to sell massively, which means more accessibility. A good pvp game is not that accessible, in the sense that it takes a long learning curve, and there is no fast rewards. Only if a player has already the dedication, time and love for strategy / tactics, he will play the game for long enough to begin to enjoy it. That's why I believe, companies don't develop seriously for this market anymore, although there is still A LOT of players waiting for a true online pvp hit, in a rpg environment... let's hope the future will tell me wrong.

Asheron's Call

or

Irth Online.

Both are skills based and you can pick just about any skill combinations you want.,

Sounds great... except for the being able to max everything part (pvp loving chick too by the way). To me maxing everything would be cheap. I think people should either be able to specialize or diversify, and that you shouldn't be able to specialize in everything because that kills balance.
Have you tried GunZ by any chance? You don't really have skills, you have weapons instead , and you can carry a certain amount of equipment. Nobody sees what you have until you pull it out. Not sure it qualifies as an MMORPG, though, it DOES have exp, but the fights take place in "rooms", although people can usually come and go in your room any time they want even after the game starts...

I'd like to see a system sorta like that in a world format with a skill system and more diversity in characters, although I'm pretty sure it'd eat up a lot of bandwidth...

maxing everything wouldn't be cheap! it would be awesome!.. but of course you would never know what your opponent was going to do.  The fact that anyone can specialize in anything would be balance in itself. everyone can do it so everyone is on equal ground.

I think I agree with the OP completely on this one.

My only thoughts are that taking  "computerized luck out of it entirely and" leaving "it up to real player skill" might suck up some bandwidth and maybe slow the server too much if there is a major battle. (especialy if it is a bunch of key hacking) That's only a side issue though. The point is that fights don't seem real enough anymore and sometimes it seems like you are only a spectator, no skill involved, just pseudo-random "fate".

I do prefer the idea of getting rid of "fixed" classes and allowing full development of every character. I think that maxing out skills should be something that's almost impossible though.

What you describe sounds fun, but there will always be a certain amount of predictability involved because some abilities will trump other abilites leading to some being used more than others. 

I would love to play the game you describe though.  Sounds like something that would hold my interest for awhile.

If everyone could max every skill in the game that is what everyone would do. If that is the case why have them at all? Just set the game up kind of like an FPS where the only skill you need is in your eyes and hands.

Originally posted by ElgarL

Asheron's Call

or

Irth Online.

 

Both are skills based and you can pick just about any skill combinations you want.,

ElgarL    you beat me to it.   AC.    I had visions of seeing a mage carrying a broad sword decked out in plate armor.

I agree with one of the above. IF everyone will have exactly the same skills...why bother even having them? Go play an FPS or something. Without races and some semblance of classes, the min/maxing of stats, etc...there is no point to making an MMO, just make an FPS and call it a day, or make an fps style game with some hack and slash.

Pretty boring IMO.

D.

---

Originally posted by daelnor

I agree with one of the above. IF everyone will have exactly the same skills...why bother even having them? Go play an FPS or something. Without races and some semblance of classes, the min/maxing of stats, etc...there is no point to making an MMO, just make an FPS and call it a day, or make an fps style game with some hack and slash.
Pretty boring IMO.
D.

---

(All IMO of course)

 I did not intend my comment to make you believe that the ideas devil brought up were incorrect.

Originally posted by deviliscious

...........  To me player killing should be about reflexes, game knowledge, memorization and better guessing of what your opponent will do next. The ability to control the fight and make your opponent do what you want them to do is what makes a good fighter. 

I totally agree with this.         

 What I dislike about  having to choose classes that all have different skills is that it takes alot of that away. As soon as you see an elf you know what their strengths and weaknesses are so it is easy to know what to do next verses figuring it out in the heat of battle. If all players in the game  have all abilities on one character and can make those characters appear however they want, then you would never be able to " predetermine" what they are capable of upon sight like fighting a real opponent.  If all players can train anything however they wish or everything to max, they can choose to work for it. so on one character you can have everything the game has to offer instead of having to create several characters to accomplish this.

I think what is needed is more character development.   Look at the games today.  They  are assembly lines.  The player has almost no real feel that they can create something unique.....why is that?   

 A game that allows you to do anything in actual battle in the game would make it possible to take combat to a higher level. You would never know what another player was going to do based on their appearance and you would never know what the other player was going to do in the middle of battle. Just because they maged you doesn't mean they are not going to range you then melee you. For players that fight for the challenge not for loot or fear this is  what player killing is all about. Players that care nothing if they die , and do not care much for pixel items, this is what makes the game fun.  The predictability in alot of games when fighting players makes you feel like you might as well be fighting an npc. If it were up to me I would take computerized luck out of it entirely and leave it up to real player skill, and have all players have the ability to do anything in battle that they choose to train all on one character.  That is what player killing to  me is all about.

Again I think it is the unimaginative way games are designed today.    I do not think it is bad to to be able to have a good guess at what the other person is or will do....sometimes, that happens to a degree in real life.  

It is the small or linear (SP)  character development models being used in many games today.....or maybe both.

I wish more games had more skill development and less skill picking.   "DING"  time to pick something.   Probably driven by costs, schedules, and profit margins. 

But like Elgar mentioned, there are games out there that do have some of the qualities you are looking for.  Have you looked at Eve?   

What you (OP) descibes reminds me a lot of UO. Granted you were limited on what you could learn as far as skill points.. but that system alone made the pvp amazing. The only contradiction I see is the issue you brought up with loot. If there's no loot, and the game is as you described.. its basically like playing Counter Strike or something to that nature. Looting wether it be monster or players partially what makes an MMO so interesting. In UO, when I'd win a fight against another decent pvp'er and win.. looting his corpse would make my day. On the flipside, when i'd lose, it would propel me to figure out what I did wrong and how to correct it for the next time.

  Also, if what you describe is truly your flavor of game, you might want to check out Fury. You can do most of what you described in there, and it is purely focused on pvp combat, no looting, and you can train any skill. It didnt have a very successful release, but I believe it is a f2p game now, so you can at least give it a shot. I personally enjoyed the game, but my computer didnt like it nearly as much.

Some games I can recommend that are out now:

Fury, UO, EvE Online

Some that look promising:

Darkfall, Fallen Earth, and Earth Rise

Oh no I didn't mean that you get no reward for killing! Of course you should get your loot! What I meant is that isn't the reason why you kill. The reason for killing is the challenge, and yes there should be a reward and risk in that challenge. I was referring to the reason you fight, it isn't for pixel junk, it is for the thrill of the actual fight.

Originally posted by deviliscious

Oh no I didn't mean that you get no reward for killing! Of course you should get your loot! What I meant is that isn't the reason why you kill. The reason for killing is the challenge, and yes there should be a reward and risk in that challenge. I was referring to the reason you fight, it isn't for pixel junk, it is for the thrill of the actual fight.

The quote under my avatar says it all.  Having said that Darkfall is you best hope.  Personally I think anyone who is looking for a game that has more twitch should play an FPS.  If MMORPG's are born of of pen-and-paper RPG's, the never did a nerdier crowd play a game that required no more physical ability then to pick up a die and roll it.

I think there should be more than click and press "win" button, but MMO's should be about picking the right skills in the right situation and with your knowlage of the game and a small amout of twitch, win the fight.

If darkfall works the way I think it's going to, it's not going to be a welcome place for the average gamer, but I'm looking forwarrd to it anyway.  Course I was looking forward to it back in 2004, before I had any gray hair too....

Yeah, I'm mostly looking forward to Darkfall myself.  At this point, though, I've stopped paying much attention to it...  That way I'll be excited when I walk through the game store and see it on the shelf rather than dissapointed that it still isn't out. ;)

One thing people haven't mentioned yet: Planetside.  It is an MMOFPS.  Though old, it's been getting a lot of new content updates recently... I really want money and a decent computer so I can go check it out. ;)  I'd never have stopped playing... but, you know... women.  :(

i think you will be happy with darkfall, Its looking great and full loot pvp... Check it out

Originally posted by Tertiary

 At this point, though, I've stopped paying much attention to it...  That way I'll be excited when I walk through the game store and see it on the shelf rather than dissapointed that it still isn't out. ;)

That's hilarious, that is exactly how I feel about it.  I have been watching for DFO since 2003.

Originally posted by kiersteadmo

i think you will be happy with darkfall, Its looking great and full loot pvp... Check it out

Full loot has always seemed like a carebear version of perm-death to me.  Just enact perm-death and get it over with - once you go to full loot you're going to get just as much whining either way.

Originally posted by daelnor

I agree with one of the above. IF everyone will have exactly the same skills...why bother even having them? Go play an FPS or something. Without races and some semblance of classes, the min/maxing of stats, etc...there is no point to making an MMO, just make an FPS and call it a day, or make an fps style game with some hack and slash.

Pretty boring IMO.

D.

I have played mmos with this style, they are just hard to find  with the flooding of class based games. Just as in reality people have their own strengths and weaknesses, no the characters would not all be the same because people themsleves have things they are good at, there is no real reason to artificially make strengths and weaknesses into a game since people will do what they enjoy without having those limitations dictated to them. You can have all combat styles available on oen character so  you would not "know" what your opponent is capable of. Yes it would take strategy as well as real skill to win in combat not just game memorization. I would like to have combat that makes you have to think, and react in real time not just see elf know what elf is capable of counter elf. That is boring repitious and predictable.
 

The type of combat that I am talking about your appearance would have nothing to do with your abilities so you would never know what to expect. It would take more thinking than what most games currently offer.  I would like to have all  the skills from all the classes available on one character, that does not mean that everyone will use the same skills in combat, no if the game is balanced right where no one skill is over powered, it would make for much more interesting combat.

I was reading through the posts here and envisioned World of Warcraft, where players can have every ability of every spec of every class. Of course you would never have enough space on your hotbars for all of them, but it would be fun to try that kind of gameplay. Of course everyone would have to wear the same kind of armor and have the same weapons and an racial starting stats, to make it fair. But it sounds like alot of fun to me.

I also wanted to agree with the unimportance of loot in PvP. Many games today use loot rewards as the driving force, which is just terrible. Nothing tears a community apart faster than focusing on the individual. Just my opinion.

Originally posted by Palebane

I was reading through the posts here and envisioned World of Warcraft, where players can have every ability of every spec of every class. Of course you would never have enough space on your hotbars for all of them, but it would be fun to try that kind of gameplay. Of course everyone would have to wear the same kind of armor and have the same weapons and an racial starting stats, to make it fair. But it sounds like alot of fun to me.

 

I also wanted to agree with the unimportance of loot in PvP. Many games today use loot rewards as the driving force, which is just terrible. Nothing tears a community apart faster than focusing on the individual. Just my opinion.

Why would they have to wear the same kind of armor? Now imagine for a second that every item in the game is craftable, tradable, socketable and dropable, and that appearance has nothing to do with ability. SO say they make what looks like range armor and socket and fit it giving it warrior armor stats. You would have no clue what they were capable of. Give players the ability to set their own armor stats wearing anything they like , even a MS Clause outfit if they so choose, and you would still not be able to guess the abilities of such armor based on the appearance of it. It would really open up the possibilities, and remove the predictability from the games.

Very few PvP'ers play MMO 's to PvP fair. The people who want a fair fight are a major minority. MMO PvP is all about advantages, wheather its raiding endless hours to get the gear to give you the advantage or whoever can amass the biggest gank squad.  This is why I dislike PvP in MMO's, When I have an urge to PvP I throw in an FPS or fighting game lioke soul calibur. I wish we could get a new MK game but I am not holding my breath with midways problems.

Originally posted by deviliscious

Originally posted by Palebane

I was reading through the posts here and envisioned World of Warcraft, where players can have every ability of every spec of every class. Of course you would never have enough space on your hotbars for all of them, but it would be fun to try that kind of gameplay. Of course everyone would have to wear the same kind of armor and have the same weapons and an racial starting stats, to make it fair. But it sounds like alot of fun to me.

 

I also wanted to agree with the unimportance of loot in PvP. Many games today use loot rewards as the driving force, which is just terrible. Nothing tears a community apart faster than focusing on the individual. Just my opinion.

 

Why would they have to wear the same kind of armor? Now imagine for a second that every item in the game is craftable, tradable, socketable and dropable, and that appearance has nothing to do with ability. SO say they make what looks like range armor and socket and fit it giving it warrior armor stats. You would have no clue what they were capable of. Give players the ability to set their own armor stats wearing anything they like , even a MS Clause outfit if they so choose, and you would still not be able to guess the abilities of such armor based on the appearance of it. It would really open up the possibilities, and remove the predictability from the games.

 

It would make the outcome of every battle dependant on random chance. It would completely remove the mental game of learning  what attacks and defenses to use based on the situation you encounter. This is also why classless sytems fail. Everyone just builds the same tank/mage/rogue/healer uberclass with very slight adjustments to suit their style and equipping substantially the same gear depending on what the current overpowered fotm is. It all sounds good on paper. It doesn't play out that way. I find adjusating goup synergies based on the skills available to different combinations to be much more interesting for everyone.

just an FYI, you really did just describe champions online.  I really like the PvP in this game alot.  It has team deathmatch gameplay and you can make your hero look however you want.  Nobody knows what to expect from looks, unless you arent creative and make a blue guy named McIcePants as your frost power dude.  Also, you do have to have a general theme to your character but after level 26, you have access to all superpowers in the game.  Also for "reflex skill" you can manually block in this game for about half damage, you move slower and cant attack, but it has no cooldown, so if you have good timing and read your opponents you can block in between attacks, and time it so you block your opponents hard hitters.  I highly recommend it.  It is a new game so it has some bugs/balance issues but they are making great progress.  The PvE is good humored and fast paced too.