Originally posted by Malakhon

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Do you see past the bugs and understand them because all MMO launches have bugs? Or do all MMO launches have bugs because they know you'll see past them and understand them?

 

Having worked in software development, I'd say ALL new software has bugs. Expecting a flawless program that never needs to be changed or updated is setting yourself up for disappoint.

Something of this scope and magnitude, with all the different software drivers, hard ware rigs, connection speeds, and ways to play is immense compared to the things I have worked on.  So from my experience, they did a GREAT job of making a PLAYABLE game with a some balance/tweaking still needed and plenty of room for content.

I would say look at it more like the FDA. They expect about 2% worms in a can of Peaches. They have set a realistic percentage they will tolerate because to expect NO worms in peaches is pretty unrealistic.

No one wants to get that can that has 2% or more worms. No one wants bugs in their MMO either. However, at least in the case of an MMO I know they can improve it. I am holding off on a pet class until they improve the AI for pets, in the meantime I am enjoying the heck out of my lightning based hero and my swordsman.

 

Software development is different then food processing.  Aside from that I work with code quite a bit in my job as well, and I know the difference between a minor bug and a major one.  If I were to create a program, release it to the public and then turn around and change the program after they had paid for it and knocked out the use of a majority of the features for the first day they were supposed to use my application... I probably wouldn't inspire a lot of confidence to my customers.  

I'll tell you a secret.. even if they launched this game with the stable beta build, the game would have had bugs.  The difference is, they put out a horrible buggy patch after headstart and at launch that brought the system down and made a number of their subscribers angry.  There are 2 kind of bugs.. minor bugs.. and major bugs.....  In the scope of all the other bugs in game.. this one seemed to be pretty major.

Originally posted by Aernisimm

Everything I've read about the launch of Champions Online suggests something akin to what happened with Anarchy Online's launch - failure. 

Well, everything "you read" means jack shit. If you haven't actually played the game, then you really don't know what you're talking about, do you? You should know this.

Originally posted by maskedweasel

 

Taking it up the rear is great for the people giving it to you, if you continue to take it, they'll continue to do it.

OMG, best MMO quote EVER!

If this thread and the many others like it are representative of what people think about this game, then it is in real trouble.

I only tried this for an hour, so I have no hard knowledge, but I saw this coming from the very beginning....

 A lot of the anger comes from the game changing completely from the headstart to the release date but after many many people had bought lifetime and 6 month subs based on their experience in the headstart.

AFTER people had given their money to cryptic, cryptic changed the entire scope of the game from one genre to another and people suddenly sat with a product that seriously weren't what they paid for.

I have played many MMOs in the past 10 years and I have only ever seen any game alteration worse than what they did in CO and that was the NGE in SWG. But the nerf patch in CO was on a scale of TOA in DaoC in how much it changed the game and it happened after they had tricked people into paying for a fun game they didn't intent for them to play.

No the anger is quite real and justified.

Originally posted by Aernisimm

Originally posted by slim26

OK everything you just said will be fixed peace.

 

I'm curious about something slim, why are you such a hardcore fan of this game?

 

Everything I've read about the launch of Champions Online suggests something akin to what happened with Anarchy Online's launch - failure.

 

You are paying for this.  Why are you willing to continue to pay while they 'fix' some pretty basic issues?

 

I was there for Anarchy Online's launch as well as CO, and the comparison makes no sense. AO was UNPLAYABLE for many weeks due to server crashes, lag where noone could move, and sheer instability. CO had a bad first day launcher problem but has been stable ever since. I am not speaking to gameplay, design, or nerfing here, just playability. To compare it to AO is pure ignorance.
 

Your analysis is rubbish. I'm 35 years old and I've been playing computer games since the early '80s on more than a dozen different systems. I try to play every major new MMO release as I like the genre. I didn't consider CO a major MMO release, but was bored and figured I might as well just test it out. I bought the game on Steam just a couple of days ago and I've already stopped playing.

Think I played it for two days in total. The only thing that was cool about CO was it's character creation. Animations, gfx, sound, controls, skills, npc's - the lot - didn't appeal to me at all. I find the art-direction totally unappealing to me to say the least. It's been many years since I've bought a game that I've stopped playing this quickly. Usually when I hit a stinker - personal opinion of course - I try to force myself to play it for a bit in case it grows on you. You know just like those slow novels that turns out great in the end. Well I can't be arsed with CO. I just can't possibly see myself growing into liking this game. The only redeeming factor so far has been the character creation process.

Can't be bothered trying out new characters either as the problem is with the game as a whole more than the skills. Ah well it's cool. I didn't really have any preconceptions about the game so I'm not dissapointed or anything. Maybe a bit vexed at myself for dishing out 49$ before doing at least a little homework first. Serves me right for being a tard.

Kudos to CO for daring to be different. I wish we had more MMO's with a distinct originality like CO. This game is definately not for me though.

Originally posted by howardb

Your analysis is rubbish. I'm 35 years old and I've been playing computer games since the early '80s on more than a dozen different systems. I try to play every major new MMO release as I like the genre. I didn't consider CO a major MMO release,

I pretty much stopped right there.  You have just admitted that you had a preconceived notion that this game wasn't a "major MMO release."  Yet, you attempted to play it anyways.  Thus, your opinion is tainted as you already had a negative opinion of the game even before you tried it.  So, how can you find happiness in something that you already have a negative opinion of?  You can't... therefore that's why your opinion of CO is negative.  Maybe you should keep an open mind before you try things next time.

Originally posted by Vato26

I pretty much stopped right there.  You have just admitted that you had a preconceived notion that this game wasn't a "major MMO release."  Yet, you attempted to play it anyways.  Thus, your opinion is tainted as you already had a negative opinion of the game even before you tried it.  So, how can you find happiness in something that you already have a negative opinion of?  You can't... therefore that's why your opinion of CO is negative.  Maybe you should keep an open mind before you try things next time.

On the contrary, if I had considered CO a major MMO release it would've meant I had done research about it and thus made myself a preconceived notion. As it were I hadn't read anything, seen anything nor heard anything about it. My opinion was as untainted as you can get in this day and age. If I had a negative opinion on the game why would I spend 49$ on it? Your argument is flawed.

I still don't consider CO a major MMO release. Major releases would be games like World of Warcraft, Age of Conan, WAR, the new Star Wars game, AION, LoTRO and so on. For reference; Aion isn't released yet and it has almost 55.000 posts. CO is released and doesn't even have 10.000 so yes I don't consider it a major MMO release. Sorry if that ruined your day.

My negative opinion on CO isn't more arcane than the fact that I think it's basically a very bad MMO. Besides if you had 'bothered' reading the rest of my post you would've known that. Ignorance seldom pays.

I am sooo glad I jumped ship before paying after the Beta. This one went down worse than I thought.

Late n beta, it was getting pretty clear that something drastic had to be done to make this a game which can last more than 4 weeks. People, and by that I mean virtually anyone who cared to, were blasting through the game at a rate that would put WoW to shame in its current easymode state. The game had the size of a largish singleplayer game, thats about it. I knew Cryptic would not allow for their game to have a 3-6 month lifetime before the whole first wave of players is out, so they would change things, and they did.

It needed to be changed. But at the same time, yes, this basically changed the action/superhero/overpowered feel that people, esp. those who only spent a few days in beta, loved. Short term, its cool to feel super powerful. Problem is, MMOs dont work for the short term, so it couldnt stay.

Seriously, if they had just kept it, in 1 or 2 weeks, we d be seeing the same amount of quitters, maybe more, because there is nothing left to do for them, or because it feels boring and risk-free. A lose-lose for Cryptic, basically, and one that many in beta saw coming.

For them, there was no real choice. They HAD, in order to make money and keep people busy, to nerf and change a lot to get the mileage out of this mini-MMO.

Originally posted by afoaa

 A lot of the anger comes from the game changing completely from the headstart to the release date but after many many people had bought lifetime and 6 month subs based on their experience in the headstart.

AFTER people had given their money to cryptic, cryptic changed the entire scope of the game from one genre to another and people suddenly sat with a product that seriously weren't what they paid for.

I have played many MMOs in the past 10 years and I have only ever seen any game alteration worse than what they did in CO and that was the NGE in SWG. But the nerf patch in CO was on a scale of TOA in DaoC in how much it changed the game and it happened after they had tricked people into paying for a fun game they didn't intent for them to play.

No the anger is quite real and justified.

Wow, and I thought I was the only one that felt this way? If we still lived in the time when you could still take PC games back after they had been opened before the whole piracy craze I would have returned it already. I really wished retailers would change their policy concerning PC games returns to include just MMOs with all the crap that has been coming out recently.

If I bought a console game based on liking it's Demo (I consider this the headstart) then went and purchased the game and it turned out nothing like the Demo I would return it. Been playing consoles for a very long time now and I don't remember that ever happening.

The MMO genre really needs to evolve from creating hype generating machines before launch with developers giving comments in interviews / previews that they know may change or misleading possible customers with blanket statements.  Also the the entire "To get into Open Beta you'll need to pre-order our game." needs to stop; it's got much worse over time I don't know what game started it but I'm hoping someone will change that trend.

I'm thinking bout canceling. I hoped they improved since City of Heroes but on Launch day I could already see the bad signs. Fortunately, my character was not nerfed. However! PVE was buffed x3 and they lowered XP rates

I am seeing many of my SG (supergroup = guild) members struggling to beat missions 2 levels above them. I think there are going to be a lot of content gaps. PErsonally I make sure I do some pvp so I dont run out. And I go back and do missions below my level. I shouldnt have to do this though

The PVP can be fun but still very raw. Having no Villains at all makes me feel like I'm paying for half of what games like WoW and such have. I think $15 a month is a bit too much for the game

The PVE I feel like its just like EVerquest now. I dont really feel like a 'superhero'. I kinda think the PVE was super lazy. And I hate that its hard as hell to find a team. And when you get a team they leave right after.

I didnt want to pay for an MMO so I could be a 'solo' superhero!

Whats funny I'm not even a socializer really. But I like to greoup here and there. Enjoy some good conversation and have fun seeing what pther powers people got. But all this is solo superhero online where you only see people in passing

They really missed it. They forgot they were making an MMO. I like my superheros and the open skill system but doesnt seem like it has long term appeal

Originally posted by PatchDay

I am seeing many of my SG (supergroup = guild) members struggling to beat missions 2 levels above them. I think there are going to be a lot of content gaps. PErsonally I make sure I do some pvp so I dont run out. And I go back and do missions below my level. I shouldnt have to do this though

I'm not going to comment on much more, if you don't like the game, you don't like the game.  However, you are supposed to have an even chance against content at your level.  If you are struggling on mission 2 levels above you, then the devs got it right.  Just saying...

Originally posted by bstripp

Originally posted by PatchDay

I am seeing many of my SG (supergroup = guild) members struggling to beat missions 2 levels above them. I think there are going to be a lot of content gaps. PErsonally I make sure I do some pvp so I dont run out. And I go back and do missions below my level. I shouldnt have to do this though

 

I'm not going to comment on much more, if you don't like the game, you don't like the game.  However, you are supposed to have an even chance against content at your level.  If you are struggling on mission 2 levels above you, then the devs got it right.  Just saying...

Well in comparison to how it was in CB, I could sufficiently take on enemies and some mobs 6-10 levels above me barely breaking a sweat.    Struggling on 2 levels above me is completely bogus.  5 Levels above me being tough? I can understand that.  Fact of the matter is, with the way CO is setup.. content runs in groups that vary  a few levels above or below.  Also the content is rather scarce in some areas that you would start getting missions 2 higher then yourself pretty early on... sometimes higher then that.  That would then be considered forced grouping...... .... 

That's fine, they obviously had it wrong in CB.  By any MMO standard, you should have a better than even chance at your level and it should get harder as you fight things above you.  That's kind of the point of both OB and CB, to get data on where to set the difficulty of the game.  Perhaps they are a little high now, but I doubt they are far off.  If you were plowing mobs 6-10 levels higher, then they've obviously done a pretty good job tuning it the way it should be.

It's a new game.  EVERY new game goes through this.  Beta testers get mad that their overpowered tricks or stupid fast XP gets tuned down to release levels.  There's hordes of flames on the boards and more rage than you can shake a stick at.  I really think that companies shouldn't have OBs.  Just start with release and work from there...  Perhaps one day of stress test to see if your servers can handle the load...

Now, none of that still means that anyone should like the game.  I do, but I found it fun in OB, and I still find it fun.  Just saying that it sounds far more tuned to where it should be than the complaints warrant.

In answer to the question that started the thread.

1) Most that said they were getting rid of their life memberships. Didn't have one - see the whiners in this post.

2) Some that did, their parents found out and cancelled the card payment thinking it was for WOW.

3) The rest had no intention of actually getting the game. Just wanted to keep those that did, from getting a Life membership. They got REALLY disappointed when the Life memberships were reopened. Probably afraid that WOW will be adding in a cash shop if CO is succesful with theirs - see the rest of the whiners in this post.

Originally posted by bstripp

That's fine, they obviously had it wrong in CB.  By any MMO standard, you should have a better than even chance at your level and it should get harder as you fight things above you.  That's kind of the point of both OB and CB, to get data on where to set the difficulty of the game.  Perhaps they are a little high now, but I doubt they are far off.  If you were plowing mobs 6-10 levels higher, then they've obviously done a pretty good job tuning it the way it should be.

It's a new game.  EVERY new game goes through this.  Beta testers get mad that their overpowered tricks or stupid fast XP gets tuned down to release levels.  There's hordes of flames on the boards and more rage than you can shake a stick at.  I really think that companies shouldn't have OBs.  Just start with release and work from there...  Perhaps one day of stress test to see if your servers can handle the load...

Now, none of that still means that anyone should like the game.  I do, but I found it fun in OB, and I still find it fun.  Just saying that it sounds far more tuned to where it should be than the complaints warrant.

I don't have a problem with them tuning down the XP or even increasing the mob difficulty... I mean the game did need it to an extent (although it was fun to solo level 26 mobs at 18).  The only issue I would see is cutting the experience would sorely cut out amount of content and slow progression to a crawl in some areas.  The missions were few and far between as it was.. the only thing that kept people going was that they would level so fast, new missions would open up all the time.  If they cut that out, you might be hard set for missions.

It definitely goes against what Mr. Roper said about being able to level from 1 to max in a single zone, and that they would have enough content to do so.  As it stood in CB that was a sketchy statement.. with slower leveling I wouldn't think it would be possible across the 3 starter areas to level to max.

Even in OB I could've leveled to max just switching from canada to the desert.. and back and forth...    I wonder how much that has changed now?

It's really simple. I have been playing MMOs for years now, started with SWG.

I played this as a head start pre order. LOVED the game until BOOM, day one patch completely made it grindy, boring, and not superheroic fun.

So I canceled my preorder and shifted my preorder to Dragon Age: Origins.

Buh bye, CO. I'm now hoping DC universe will blow the socks off of CO and give me the superhero game I was having fun with before CO launched.

I haven't played CO so I can't comment on that directly. But I would like to say it takes me less then 15 days to decide if I'm staying with an MMO and I've played tons of them. You can get a feel fairly quickly on whether you will enjoy a game or not. Clearly people do not enjoy this game, or the drastic changes made that probably should of been made before launch (although not changing it until after launch helped keep the beta players who preordered to keep their preorder).

The one thing that bothers me more then anything is when someone who likes a game decides that when other people don't like a game something is wrong with them. People have their own opinions and people have their own levels of tolerance. None of them are wrong. If someone doesn't tolerate certain bugs on release so they cancel once they see them, there is nothing wrong with that. If someone doesn't enjoy the game play or the changes made, there is nothing wrong with that.

The only thing that is wrong is taking other people's opinions and deciding that because they don't like it, you are smarter then them or they just don't have a clue how MMOs work. That is ridiculous. If you enjoy the game keep playing and paying for it, but don't tell others they are wrong for not continuing to pay for it. It is their money and they want to spend it on something they enjoy, this isn't it.

They probably pre-ordered the game as well. The company has all your money before you've even tried the game. Where is the brains in that? You are basically shelling out too much money, and giving the developers the attitude that they can do whatever they want since they already have your money, simply because you are desperate for something new and different. If you've played more than two MMORPGs, you would know that they are not all that different from one another and that you are much more likely to be disappointed than pleasantly surprised.

Originally posted by maskedweasel

I don't have a problem with them tuning down the XP or even increasing the mob difficulty... I mean the game did need it to an extent (although it was fun to solo level 26 mobs at 18).  The only issue I would see is cutting the experience would sorely cut out amount of content and slow progression to a crawl in some areas.  The missions were few and far between as it was.. the only thing that kept people going was that they would level so fast, new missions would open up all the time.  If they cut that out, you might be hard set for missions.

 It definitely goes against what Mr. Roper said about being able to level from 1 to max in a single zone, and that they would have enough content to do so.  As it stood in CB that was a sketchy statement.. with slower leveling I wouldn't think it would be possible across the 3 starter areas to level to max.

 Even in OB I could've leveled to max just switching from canada to the desert.. and back and forth...    I wonder how much that has changed now?

Content gaps is a whole separate issue; at least in my book.

Tuning XP and missions so that you are battling close to your level is fine.  In fact, I would say that it was sorely needed.  However, if that opens up gaps where you need to grind to progress, that's a problem and one I would agree with you.

However, content gaps are far more easily addressed later in a game, than basic leveling speed and mob difficulty.  They did the right thing at the right time.  Now they have to come through on the rest of the issues that this change uncovered. 

Originally posted by bstripp

Originally posted by maskedweasel

I don't have a problem with them tuning down the XP or even increasing the mob difficulty... I mean the game did need it to an extent (although it was fun to solo level 26 mobs at 18).  The only issue I would see is cutting the experience would sorely cut out amount of content and slow progression to a crawl in some areas.  The missions were few and far between as it was.. the only thing that kept people going was that they would level so fast, new missions would open up all the time.  If they cut that out, you might be hard set for missions.

 It definitely goes against what Mr. Roper said about being able to level from 1 to max in a single zone, and that they would have enough content to do so.  As it stood in CB that was a sketchy statement.. with slower leveling I wouldn't think it would be possible across the 3 starter areas to level to max.

 Even in OB I could've leveled to max just switching from canada to the desert.. and back and forth...    I wonder how much that has changed now?

Content gaps is a whole separate issue; at least in my book.

Tuning XP and missions so that you are battling close to your level is fine.  In fact, I would say that it was sorely needed.  However, if that opens up gaps where you need to grind to progress, that's a problem and one I would agree with you.

However, content gaps are far more easily addressed later in a game, than basic leveling speed and mob difficulty.  They did the right thing at the right time.  Now they have to come through on the rest of the issues that this change uncovered. 

I keep hearing people talking about content gaps and having to grind mobs.  But It just doesn't seem to be the case for me.  I'm upto almost lvl 28 and so far I've never had any content gap issues.  At 27 my book is full of lvl 27/28 quests that I have yet to do.  I don't see any outlook of problems upto at least lvl 29... I already have found a couple quest hubs with 28/29 content that I'll get to soon enough.

I was kinda bummed when I flew by the open quest area in MC thats for lvl 26-29 or so.  I found it was on a long timer.  Not sure how long but it said 30 minutes when I flew buy it.  Although in retrospec thats probably a pointless restriction that's just a pain since you can switch instances easily to find one that isn't on wait mode.  Anyway hopefully I'll take a break from questing and do that before I outlevel it.

The content gap issue is real, im in one of the largest supergroups (penny arcade crime fighters) and I just helped my sgmate beat a L19 mission on his L17 character. I was L17 at the time too. Like him, in my journal it was filled with L19-L20 quests.

Finally I checked my inventory and saw I accidently skipped some L14 quests. you know the ones where purple gang robbed a bank, etc. So I finished those last night. So I think I might have quests around my level (17-18ish) in Desert and such. I've been mixing in PVP though. Much to my surprise, atm they give pretty good xp for PVP. In addition, you get some hero games quests

I believe you will encounter some gaps if you do only PVE and if you accidently skip the additional quests in your journal. You might also hit gaps if you dont farm extra mobs and dont do the public quests

I now do everything. I try to go back and finish any older quests I have if they're only 3-4 levels back.

I think they needed to slowdown the XP. Not sure if they should've buffed the mobs. People still dont really team. Nothing like they teamed in City of Heores. These new spoiled populace they just use ya to beat a boss and they quit team before you can invite them to do more. I have to like make sure i ask people to stay in group to keep them around. but the devs made it so hard to share quests :(

I've found the only way at my level to enjoy fun teaming is do PVP with my supergroup. but then they get frustrated with the balance issues like Teleport and such.

Another issue too since there is no 'villains' the bad guys are mixed in the good guys. So what happened to me numerous times I'm trying to save some NPC or get to a 'blinky'. so i kill all the mobs around it. Next thing I know-- some dick flies in and grabs the blinky. Well ok I've done this once to someone else too..... I think they should've 'marked' who started killing the mobs and only give that guy credit

I love this new open zone approach they went with but kill stealing is a minor annoyance. It is truly minor but I'm thinking if they allowed villains at launch someway all the busters woulda went on that side

Maybe PvP wouldnt be the only xp supplement if the Public Quests actually worked. The tutorial and the 2 starter zones are the only places i have seen functional PQ's. My highest level toon is 22. So I have not seen all the PQ's, but the ones in Millenium City are most certainly broken.